"That situation [UPN's revenue] has been in steady decline over the past several years partially due to an exceptionally high license fee paid by the network to Fox for the rights to Buffy the Vampire Slayer's final seasons."

I knew that UPN had difficulty justifying the franchise fee but it appears that it was well above what I had expected...So it appears that Fox's insistance that it recieve top dollar for Buffy's franchise fee (which I have commented on numerous times on this site) may have contributed to AtS ultimate demise (albeit a very small contribution when one considers the context of the situation). And it really makes me agry because Fox has undoubtable made a tremendous amount of money on DVD sales (I know that the total is well above 500,000 sets total, which roughly translates to over $30,500,000). If you take the revenue made from the DVD's, subtract production costs for AtS (roughly $2,000,000/episode X 22 episodes) that would leave only $13,500,000 that would need to be made from advertisement revenue to "break-even" for series production for a presumed Angel Season 6...

P.S. I know that the economics of the business do not actually work this way [especially considering that the networks (i.e. UPN, WB) pays for the production costs and do not receive any revenue from DVD sales/production] but it makes me feel better to think that the money is out there.

I think that deep down we all expected this whether we wanted to admit it or not...The question now remains:

"Where do we go from here?"

[ edited by Simpleba on 2004-03-04 13:00 ]

[ edited by Simpleba on 2004-03-04 13:04 ]

Simpleba | March 04, 14:48 CET

Actually I would suggest the TV to DVD route as I had suggested even before the cancelation was announced - since the signs were there that this was Angel's last season on the WB even before it aired, but I fear some here may think that is just holding out a false hope. Even though it could be done and be profitable by cutting the season to 16 episodes from 22. But heaven forbid anyone offer up a suggestion that might offer a glimmer of hope for intelligent television in the dismal world of the muck that now clogs the network airwaves. Well it's all relative anyhow at this point with the potential of strikes looming from two camps, a new surge from a group of sag actors asking the general members not to accept the recent contract, on top of the current rough negositation with the writers - next season may see nothing but reality tv and reruns for part of it.

Just a funny tibit looking at last nights rating and demos as in the 9pm hour- UPN's ANTM bested the WB's OTH by 31% in the overnights and 100 percent among adults 18-49.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-03-04 14:06 ]

RavenU | March 04, 15:34 CET

...crap. :(

TotalNirvana | March 04, 16:18 CET

Bugger, i thought for sure they would pick angel up.

cwlaurie | March 04, 16:54 CET

I didn't think they would, but I had hope. Is it good that the show can go out on a high? or do we just want more and more until we are ready to say goodbye as we did with buffy?

brob1 | March 04, 17:06 CET

Thank god that an announcement has been made. I imagine Allyson must be feeling some relief now that the burden of "nope, not going to happen" has been publicly lifted from her shoulders.

I love this season of Angel and am happy that the show looks like it's going out on a very, very high note.

phlebotinin | March 04, 18:00 CET

I figured as much, I know UPN was not happy about the Buffy deal, that it didn't get them the numbers or praise they expected, seasons 6-7 of Buffy were critized as the worst two seasons of Buffy,so I am sure that didn't help Angel's cause at UPN either.

UPN is on rocky ground as it is, if any network or company should put Angel on is FOX, hell they own the show, you would think if the property made them money it would help them to find a slot on FOX for the show.

Nuke | March 04, 18:14 CET

i thought buffy season 6 and 7 were good. glad they took a chance with them, because if not, there would have only been 5 seasons and that would have sucked

norman | March 04, 18:19 CET

Booooo! BaHHHHH! Hisss!


*goes off to cry in the corner*

ktbear7476 | March 04, 18:29 CET

Now might be the time to communicate to ME, FOX and the WB even...that the fans would still like a Buffy/Angel movie. Since Joss got Firefly that far maybe if we can convince them the fans are still interested in the Buffy/Angelverse we could get lucky.
I still think we should approach TNT and HBO.

kathylovesspike | March 04, 18:43 CET

Fox's licensing fee for the Buffy properties is astronomical. I'm not surprised that it (possibly) contributed to the difficulty of shopping Angel to another network.

I was a big supporter of the Buffy CCG (kudos if you know what it is!) and among many reasons, the game tanked because the Fox licensing fees were insane. The game company was still over $300,000 in the hole when all was said and done...

That was a damn great game, too.

cubiclesatan | March 04, 18:44 CET

I love how it's always direct quotes and 'sources within Mutant Enemy have confirmed', then 'no official statement has been made.' Always makes me wonder if those 'sources' are people who dump the trash or someone who once saw Tim Bell walking down the hall, or just general clingers/posers who want to sound important. They say 'producers' and say "too expensive" but they never give names. It always makes me a little wary. Not that I think UPN is picking it up, but reporting like this is just to be taken a bit more lightly than official statements, obviously.

Ah well, we knew it was a long shot. I don't think it's a reason to stop HOPING for another network or possibly a movie(even tv movie if it's done by Joss).

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 19:22 CET

Well, at least we know this puts Joss in a position to really give us a great movie with "Serenity." The only other thing ocupying his time is X-Men. He can handle just 2 major tasks I think.

RootBoy42 | March 04, 19:29 CET

I don't think anyone felt Allyson's information about UPN was wrong. I think people just had a problem with her shooting down every idea about how the show could possibly go on. The other post mentioned UPN saying they didn't want it and someone mentioned maybe TNT or DVD and she again just said "it's not going to happen" and she's probably right about it and from her later posts she does seem to have a lot of very good inside information, but know one knew just how closely she was connected to the ME people until after some people got upset at her constant "not going to happen" comments.

And I just want to thank Allyson in an earlier post for coming out and telling us all what her connection is because I know she didn't want to do that and felt that people might see her as a braggart. I don't see you that way and appreciate the fact that you do have inside information and have been willing to share it.

I think people would've taken her more seriously and realized she wasn't just trying to be negative but at the same time I can completely understand her reasonings for not wanting to come across as someone who is bragging about her connections.

And again, some people just aren't ready yet to give up and others have accepted that it isn't going to happen and maybe those of us who have accepted it can just let those of us who haven't have their dreams for a little bit longer without shattering their hope. I honestly think all sides are correct on this, again it's a matter of perspective.

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-03-04 18:12 ]

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 19:34 CET

"or do we just want more and more until we are ready to say goodbye as we did with buffy?"

Um, I wasn't ready to say goodby to Buffy. I'm still not ready.

Chris in Virginia | March 04, 20:12 CET

This feels like when the Beatles broke up

rustyroxie | March 04, 21:32 CET

The ratings for ANGEL are better than last year and season three. I am still sending postcards to the WB and Fox. Hell, couldn't they put it on FX?

twiggy | March 04, 21:49 CET

Oy. FX simply doesn't have the dough.

phlebotinin | March 04, 22:03 CET

And again, some people just aren't ready yet to give up and others have accepted that it isn't going to happen and maybe those of us who have accepted it can just let those of us who haven't have their dreams for a little bit longer without shattering their hope.

Amen to that BLWessels. Hope doesn't hurt anyone, especially in regards to a tv show. Unreasonable hope is dangerous if you're talking about your life or health, but this is, in essence, entertainment, not life and death.

Some people are more of the "Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane" camp

I'm in the "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies" camp.

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 22:16 CET

Am I wrong? Doesn't Fox own FX?

twiggy | March 04, 22:24 CET

twiggy -- could be that Fox owns FX. Not sure what it'd mean if they do. Where's RavenU and her expertise? RavenU, are you around?

phlebotinin | March 04, 22:30 CET

"Unreasonable hope is dangerous if you're talking about your life or health..."

Hope can help there, too. At least that's the current psychological wisdom on the merits of various coping strategies.

phlebotinin | March 04, 22:35 CET

They do, but it doesn't work like that. Fox is the parent company that owns FX, but FX is it's own company that must operate within its budget.

ringworm | March 04, 22:35 CET

Ah, ringworm, you're a bit of a fount o' knowledge, too! Thanks for the info.

phlebotinin | March 04, 22:36 CET

Well, it's not a surprise, and we pretty much saw it coming. But some of us prefer to talk of hope even there is none. I'm just more than a little miffed that UPN is sort of suggesting the bulk of their problems is just because of taking on 'Buffy'. Yeah, like a Star Trek license fee is cheap and like 'Enterprise' isn't sinking. Or like the rest of their programming doesn't suck big hairy ones.

blwessels: And again, some people just aren't ready yet to give up and others have accepted that it isn't going to happen and maybe those of us who have accepted it can just let those of us who haven't have their dreams for a little bit longer without shattering their hope.

Amen to that.

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 22:38 CET

ARGH! I did it again! That last post was mine. Wife's log. Groan.

EdDantes | March 04, 22:39 CET

I don't think UPN really pays licensing fees for Star Trek since Paramount (the parent company of UPN) owns Star Trek.

ringworm | March 04, 22:44 CET

Honey, you really need to stay out of my log in! I don't want to be responsible for some of the stuff you say!!! :)

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 23:51 CET

I don't think UPN really pays licensing fees for Star Trek since Paramount (the parent company of UPN) owns Star Trek.

Ah ok. Didn't know that, but my main point was that UPN overall sucks, and that's why they're not doing so great. If they had good other shows and good other ratings, the Buffy fee would not matter that much.

And for the record, I had problems with S6 and S7. But I had at least some problems with all seasons. I;m very happy we had 2 more years of Buffy and that it didn't end with S5.

[ edited by EdDantes on 2004-03-04 22:19 ]

[ edited by EdDantes on 2004-03-04 22:20 ]

EdDantes | March 05, 00:19 CET

I don't think UPN really pays licensing fees for Star Trek since Paramount (the parent company of UPN) owns Star Trek.

Actually yes they do - Paramount is not the parent it is the sister company - Viacom is the parent but UPN does get a better deal than another network for the show because it is a sister company. However, it still has to pay a fee to Paramount.

As for the other networks - FX not all that likely - they have their hands full with a slate of original shows - even though they could probably get a deal - if they did it would be like the Shield and other shows an have a limited season of maybe 12 or less shows. TNT got a sweet deal and has some money to spend this next season seeing that it is now TW crowning jewel - but they are also a thrifty bunch and as much as I would ike to believe they would at least concider it for limited series (well stranger things have happened). I'm still a limited series straight to DVD proponate myself. I think FOX could be made to see the finanical viability of a 12-16 season on DVD. Seeing how well Angel has done in the past with it's DVD sales and litterally on 2 DVD set releases away from exhausting that market for the most part. I think they may find the idea entertaining, esspecially since it was FOX studios that originally wrote up the proposal to UPN before it seems ME even knew they were doing it. Don't forget FOX is the biggest winner or loser in this since they have the most money invested in it and get the most return from it. Fox is also trying to retain it's dominate hold on the TV to DVD market, so start sending postcards to Mike Dunn CEO of FOX Home video division - at least he may run the numbers and who knows. Heck DVD sales worked for Family Guy and animated shows are not cheap to make.

That is my 2c, but this is Hollywood and per usual logic and reason seldom apply so anything can happen. Until they turn the last light off, lock the gates, and resind their parking passes. I mean come on over 8 years ago who would have thought a television series loosely based off a box-office bomb would be a hit on any network - nevermind spinning off an equally successfull sequel.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-03-04 23:09 ]

RavenU | March 05, 01:03 CET

yes i do think it is the end. man o man

norman | March 05, 01:16 CET

EdDantes and Rogue Slayer are married?!? The scandal! The intrigue! The...oh, nevermind.

Considering that UPN couldn't even afford a few disposable cameras to take promo pics for Buffy season 7, I'm not surprised that they can't afford Angel. Here's hoping that Enterprise gets cancelled and the network folds, just cause I'm bitter.

MindPieces | March 05, 01:57 CET

Mindpieces--the marriage was a total surprise to me too! I just woke up one day and he'd gotten us all hitched up!

And I'm with the UPN bitterness. Especially after the new prezzy said if SHE were in charge when they agreed to take Buffy for S6 and S7, she wouldn't have bought it. It was the only thing worth watching on that wretched channel....good riddance!

Rogue Slayer | March 05, 04:33 CET