This is such good news to me. I'm in the camp of needing Buffy for closure. AND contrary to other opinions...I hope there is some. I highly doubt that any movies, tv or big screen, are going to happen...so I would like closure. Buffy and Angel are the only Whedon shows I have watched...never have seen Firefly. That does not interest me as much as the Slayer/Vampire mystique. So I welcome SMG back with open arms and pray to the PTB that we get closure and a great finale to this fantastic series. -----This is the end of television for me. They have killed off the ONLY show I watch. I should just cancel my cable subscription!! Why pay for the idiotic shit on the box now? I'm still angry...I thought I would be okay once I admitted to myself that it wasn't going to be renewed...but I'm only more angry. I'm heartbroken and am wondering is there something wrong with me to feel this way over a show...or are others becoming more angry??? Let me know if I need therapy!!!

Coll | March 05, 21:02 CET

Meh. I don't really want her to come back. Angel has long ago defined itself as its own show with its own style. It has moved away from some of the easy answer "Kill the thing with horns" that Buffy had, and to bring Sarah back would cement in some people's minds that the show deserved to be canceled becuase it couldn't make it on its own.
Not that Buffy was a bad show, it wasn't, but Angel doesn't need Buffy to return to go out with style.

/my 2 cents

RootBoy42 | March 05, 21:11 CET

Coll - I am with you. I desperately want Buffy for closure. I think that I might just be a softie at heart. (Oh, yeah, I am with you, too, on cancelling my cable subscription once Angel is gone. What would I be missing, serisouly? American Idol V? Survivor XII? Blech. Bachelorette v.4.6? Ugh.)

Genia | March 05, 21:15 CET

I don't think it's fair to categorize Buffy as a simpler show, even if that's not what you're intending to do, RootBoy. They dealt (deal) with entirely different issues. Buffy dealt with everyday life (love, heartache, depression, family) in a much more straightforward way than Angel does, wheras Angel has always concentrated itself more on high-level philosophical concepts (redemption, justice, revenge, moral ambiguity). They're different but equally important.

ringworm | March 05, 21:18 CET

definately would be awesome to see her back. i sooooo hope it happens. anything with s/a/b working together would be incredible

norman | March 05, 21:19 CET

I would definitely love an SMG appearance, but I don't want closure (in the sense that she chooses between Spike or Angel). Besides, I have faith that there will be a Buffy feature film one day. Otherwise, after 'Serenity', when would I ever get to visit the movie theatre?

mai | March 05, 21:21 CET

Why bring SMG back? This isn't Sex and The City. Angel, Spike they have their own destinies to fullfill and that is their story begun hundreds of years ago. If you see it as I do, The Scoobies are not in the same dimension as the Angel crew. They had a shared reality and now they follow their own paths. By the way, that applies to us as well. This mourning process will end and another great creation will appear to capture our imaginations. It always does. Thank you Joss for the ride. Hope the end justifies the trust.

calmlid | March 05, 21:21 CET

I totaly agree with you, ringworm. Both shows were great in different ways. I own all the DVD sets that are out for both shows and plan to buy the rest as they are released. I just happen to think that Angel deserves a chance to go out as its own entity.
I also thought that his appearance on "Chosen" was unneeded for the same reasons, but as a spin-off show, it is somewhat more important for Angel to be seen as independent.
Most spin-off shows are so cookie-cutter close to their parent show as to make no real difference (Law and Order and CSI come to mind) but these are different.

RootBoy42 | March 05, 21:26 CET

Coll: No, you are not alone. I felt that way for months about Firefly (which you honestly should check out) because it was brilliant and just wasn't given a chance. I'm still extremely angry about Firefly but I am somewhat consoled with the upcoming movie finally seeming like a reality (I will be more relieved once filming starts). I'm also upset about Angel but after the whole Firefly thing, it just didn't surprise me too much that the WB did this. I lost my faith in all networks. We have every reason to be upset and disgusted with the WB because they didn't give us a good enough reason. The show's audience has grown and it's their second highest rated show. If Angel's numbers had been declining or they had at least told us at the beginning of the season that this would be the last, we would've had time to adjust. The way they annouced the end was just disgusting and so disrespectful to AtS, Joss Whedon and Me and all of us fans.

I'd actually really like to see both Buffy and Faith show up because they both had very deep, yet unique relationships with Angel. I'd like to see them show up together, like they've been off fighting together and have finally come to terms with their own relationship. To me Faith was always like Buffy's darker self and very sister like, the same way that Angel and Spike are alike and brother like.

I'm actually torn about the idea of her showing up to end up with Angel or Spike. I truly thought her character worked with both very well. To me, if there had been a season 8 of Buffy, I think she would've fallen in love with Spike. They were building a relationship all of season 7 but it was more of a loving friendship to me and a mutual respect but I do feel it was going somewhere. But then the way they had her react to Angel, I immediately felt that same wonderful chemistry they had together and I felt it would be right if she ended up with Angel. But Joss has expressed interest in a Buffy movie and I can't imagine there being one without Angel and Spike in it. So I honestly don't see him tying this up in a nice little bow and have her end up with one over the other. I think he'd definitely save that for a movie where he could really develop a plot for it. It really wouldn't make any sense for her to show up and pick one of them over the other when it's been so long that she's seen them. And I don't even know if she knows Spike is "alive" because Andrew said he wouldn't tell (and I believe Andrew would be loyal to Spike because he's his Frodo!!)

So if Buffy comes back, it will be to help them fight their big battle and not to pick someone.

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-03-05 19:28 ]

Firefly Flanatic | March 05, 21:27 CET

I do want to see SMG again, but only to bring closure to the A/B/S triangle. My ideal closure would be for her to finally confirm that she does not want either of them, as she now wants the normal life she has always craved (which does not include dating a vampire!). She should say that she is seeing someone (not named to leave it a mystery) and has only come to LA after learning that Spike is alive and Angel has been shansued. The brief scene will be a simple 'we are all moving on' and leave it at that. Now that would be a classy way to end it all and not have Buffy dominate the finale episode. Oh and here's hoping she walks in and sees Harmony and immediately stakes her before finding out she is actually 'being good' - just for laughs!

brob1 | March 05, 21:29 CET

coll--There's nothing wrong with feeling that way. Apparently greed trumps creativity and emotional investment in the eyes of he or the network who shall not be named. Every time I think of the flimsy excuses for why Angel was cancelled I am furious all over again. Angel is not safe or predictable. Shame on viewers if we actually have genuine feelings for such complex characters and situations. Don't we know television just exists to urge us to go out and buy more stuff?

bloodflowers | March 05, 21:35 CET

Coll I agree with you and it's nice to see that there are more of us who feel the same way. What is there left to watch once Angel goes off the air??? Oh I forgot Dark Shadows....Give me a break!!! Nothing can even come close to the world Joss Whedon has created and to try to give the fans a cheap knock off is insulting.... Anyway, I understand that some fans don't want SMG to come to Angel but I feel that Joss would create the right situation since he has tried so hard to break Angel away from Buffy's shadow. I personally would love for SMG to make a guest appearance. Angel came from Buffy, the mythology was orginated on Buffy and I think it would be a great send off to the Buffyverse to have her on the show. I've said before that I would like the Scooby gang to mix with the Fang Gang...I think that would be interesting. I would love Buffy to confront Giles about not telling her Angel had contacted him for help. We don't know if that really happened and in Chosen Buffy and Angel ended on good terms so I don't think she wouldn't help him.

I do believe the appearance, by anyone from Buffy, should be brief because it is Angel not Buffy.....

lala | March 05, 22:02 CET

To me, if there had been a season 8 of Buffy, I think she would've fallen in love with Spike. They were building a relationship all of season 7 but it was more of a loving friendship to me and a mutual respect but I do feel it was going somewhere.

Couldn't agree more. I think there wasn't really romantic love on Buffy's part, even at the end. But they built trust, and that was more important than jumping back into bed. I think a season 8 would have shown them growing into a romance.

Rogue Slayer | March 05, 22:04 CET

YES!!! I SO hope this is true and not just wishful thinking. Buffy and Angel go together like peanut butter and jelly. You can't have one without the other.

kdeweb | March 05, 22:25 CET

definately.......buffy and spike had a great connection at the end, thats why i am interested to see how joss would handle buffy finding out spike is a live (if she does show up that is). i think it would be great

norman | March 05, 22:27 CET

I consider this to be good news. I really don't care if Buffy does or doesn't show up again on Angel, but I like the fact that ME has the option available to them. I trust Joss & co. to make the right decision for the right reason.

Scott | March 05, 22:31 CET

i hope a bunch of the scoobies come back. buffy/giles/andrew/willow(?) + a some slayers come back to fight angel and wolfram and hart???????????

[ edited by nicoblu710 on 2004-03-05 20:43 ]

nicoblu710 | March 05, 22:43 CET

If she came back, Buffy would have to choose Spike. Angel should shanshu and get his son so both can have happy endings.

twiggy | March 05, 23:09 CET

A while ago, I was just as desperate for SMG to come back as Buffy for the final Angel eps, but I don't think so anymore. While it would be nice to have "closure", I just don't think it's going to be worth the inevitable, pathetic "shipper" war that will break out because of who she does or does not choose to be with in the end. Seriously, (1) like she'd be able to pick and (2) these shows have been so much more than "who does Buffy end up shagging?"

It bums me out writing this, because I would really love Buffy to be back, but to have to see all the inevitable "Spike kicks Angel's ass" "no way, Angel is soo better" arguing posts wherever in fandom you go is just...bleh!!

Attack me now, if you must. *throws arms out wide for largest target possible*

cubiclesatan | March 05, 23:10 CET

Interesting brob, I too want neither of them to wind up with her but mainly because I want Spike and Angel to realize they can do fine without HER, hehe.

As said before Jeffrey Bell's explanation of the cookie dough thing was "It's not gonna work out. We're both adults, let's move on." And I agree with that. But in the last two eps of Buffy I thought she was just keeping both Spike and Angel on a string. First with Spike
-Buffy: "We must talk about our feelings! How can you just walk away?? We must acknowledge our feelings! Last night was so important!
-Spike: "Really? Wow! What does that mean?"
-Buffy "Pff who said it meant anything?"

Oookay.

And then the cookie speech neatly allowed her to get from either Angel or Spike what she wanted, knowing both would give it. And if I was Angel all I would've heard was "Hey I can hook up with new guys wherever I want and I can expect you to wait for me IF I want you again right?"
Angel: "........I guess......."
Buffy: "Cool. Bye bye. Ok Spike I need cuddling now!"
Spike: "But you were kissing Angel!"
Buffy: "Weren't you listening? Cookie dough! Now cuddle!"

Seriously, I would like to see Buffy again, but...ahh, I agree with Sarah that it really depends on what they do with it. It shouldn't be too much about her, I don't want anyone to Shanshu, I don't want Spike and Angel go back to how they were in the first scene in the second ep this season: "She loved ME!" "NO ME!" They've come so far. Let's not de-evolve now.

I guess Angel could use a confrontation to say "YES I was at W&H but I'm STILL ME!" And Spike could use to well, see her one last time and for her to know he's alive and kicking and is finally his own man. Maybe Joss wants Buffy to show up to show both Spike and Angel have changed and grown. What better way to show that?

Ah, I'm torn. She could show up, she could not. Wether or not I want it...all depends on what they do.

EdDantes | March 05, 23:13 CET

yeah they need a good idea for her if she comes back. but i dont think it should be about her choosing one and them both saying im over you, bye. they both have relationships with her that would be hard to just say "ive grown" anyway i think she could come back and work with both of them. it would be cool if somehow both spike and angel would get shanshu. like if it was meant to happen to both of them together or something! that would be cool

norman | March 05, 23:22 CET

See, I just don't get the Buffy must be with one or the other. I think both relationships worked and both were believable. I honestly feel that if Joss does have her come back it isn't going to be for her to choose one over the other. I don't think anyone is going to Shanshu either. Not if he seriously wants to do a movie in the future with the characters. If they had Spike or Angel become human that would seriously limit them in a movie version and part of the attraction of both of them is that they are super, powerful vampires. And let's just look at what happened with Riley when he lost his enhanced strength. He had a real hard time dealing with the fact that he wasn't as strong anymore and couldn't help Buffy. Angel had the same thing happen when he became human briefly. He was more interested in being able to protect Buffy than being human. And nothing has changed. Buffy is still a slayer and is still out fighting the good fight, she just has a lot of help now. She hasn't retired at all. Now, if they had said Buffy and Dawn are in Europe enjoying their freedom from responsibility that would be different. Angel or Spike would most likely jump at the chance to have a normal life with Buffy. Angel left Buffy so she could have some semblance of a normal life, a husband and a family.

Something that I am honestly nervous about happening is Spike dying for real this time. I don't think they'd kill Angel because he's the star of the show and they've been there done that with Buffy. And if there was to be a movie, they'd want the two stars of the two shows to be on it. I'm worried that it will be Spike who sacrifices himself to somehow save Angel.

Something I thought they might have been able to explore would've been if they had made Connor a little more older and a little less nutty. And then have him meet Buffy. Connor had super strength but was human. He would've been a good match for Buffy (on paper that is). And who knows, maybe Buffy is in Europe right now meeting the much happier, much stabler Connor. Does Connor still have super powers? Was that ever addressed? Could the big surprise be that Buffy has moved on and the new man in her life is Connor? That would really, really get people talking!!

Firefly Flanatic | March 05, 23:23 CET

Just because the someone speculates that she might do one or two episodes doesn't mean it will happen. In fact it's not likely. First ME would have to ask....AGAIN. And she would have to say yes. The clock is ticking folks. Maybe, just maybe she'll show for a movie or movies. For now I'm sure they want to leave the franchise open-ended. You may think having Buffy over to resolve feelings for Spike and or Angel makes sense but it would cut down the number of potential viewers in syndication so...not gonna happen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Marsters as Harry Dresden because they're both magical...

cousine | March 05, 23:25 CET

yeah but i dont think people would be talking highly of it. i wouldnt like it if they ended it that way. i do agree that i dont want spike to sacrifice himself again. i like his character too much. i also agree that there wont be closure on much at all just because joss wouldnt do that and we know it. still i am excited to see what happens

norman | March 05, 23:27 CET

I am a shameless Spuffy shipper, I admit it. I just can't see being happy with an ending where Buffy ends up trampling either guys heart. Like I said, both would have to have something in the end that makes them happy. I think Angel has moved on from Buffy more than Spike has, at this point---I think his son is more important to him than Buffy. He is attracted to Nina, etc. On the other hand, Spike...he might be afraid to face her, but... I really want Buffy/Spike to face each other again, after CHOSEN.

[ edited by twiggy on 2004-03-05 21:31 ]

twiggy | March 05, 23:30 CET

theres no way anybody will end up with each other (as much as i want it) i still remember before the ending of buffy season 7 there was all these polls about who you wanted buffy to end up with, and nothing happened like that. i think its the same in this case

norman | March 05, 23:33 CET

"Angel had the same thing happen when he became human briefly. He was more interested in being able to protect Buffy than being human."

Yeah, and I don't think Spike has EVER shown interest in becoming human. I sincerely doubt he'd even like it. He seems fine with what he is.

"nervous about happening is Spike dying for real this time. I don't think they'd kill Angel because he's the star of the show and they've been there done that with Buffy."

Yeah but they've also been there done that with Spike. I doubt Joss will end both shows with Spike dying. I could be wrong but I'm not too worried about it. Besides they said they weren't really changing anything from what they were already planning for this season ending. And I doubt they would write Spike out while a season 6 was still coming.

"He would've been a good match for Buffy (on paper that is). And who knows, maybe Buffy is in Europe right now meeting the much happier, much stabler Connor. "

GASP! CHOKE! ARGH! Blwessels, please don't say such things! I am fragile! Arrrgh, must....get.....visual.....out....of brain...No no no, they did that 'Angel's love bangs his son' bit with Cordy already! Noooo.....

What're you doing, trying to kill me?? HELP! Security!

EdDantes | March 05, 23:34 CET

Sorry EdDantes - I was speculating if they had written Connor differently than they had - that's why I added the "on paper that is" afterwards. I never, seriously think anyone would've wanted to see Buffy with Connor the way he was written. I always thought they had potential with the character Connor but I never liked how he was written and what they did with him. Also, I never thought the actor they cast was right either. My point about him being a good match was that he had the superpowers but was still a human and so was Buffy. His powers have demon roots and so does hers.

But not trying to make you have an epileptic seizure or anything but that would be the type of twist Joss Whedon would do. Afterall, hasn't there been rumors that Connor might return, and now a possible Buffy return??!! Hee hee! Just having fun with you!! Sorry about putting that evil visual in your head. I had the same thing happen to me when someone mentioned to me a fanfic that involved Buffy and Snyder and that is all I'm going to say on that! Ooops, sorry, did I just give you another unwanted visual??!!

Firefly Flanatic | March 06, 00:00 CET

Also, I never thought the actor they cast was right either.

I agree with you there blwessels! For starters, VK just wasn't hot enough to portray the sick, twisted offspring of Angel and Darla. But then, the writers had to make it worse by just totally writing nothing good for him...

(And you've scarred me for life with the visuals, you sick, sick person...)

cubiclesatan | March 06, 00:14 CET

I am truly evil!!!

I always thought they should've cast someone who resembled David B. in looks and in build and they didn't seem to attempt to do that at all with Connor. There's an actor that was on a show called Wolf Lake and now is on Everwood, who I think would've been perfect as the son of Angel. He has pale skin, intense eyes, a heavy forward, and a build like David's and even has the same kind of mannerisms. I just looked him up on the IMDB site and his name is Paul Wasilewski. He also played Lex Luthor's long lost brother on an episode of Smallville.

And I just thought that the character of Connor wasn't ever really fully fleshed out and that at some point they just didn't seem to know where to go with him.

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-03-05 22:23 ]

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-03-05 22:24 ]

Firefly Flanatic | March 06, 00:22 CET

I was always creepily amused at the "Save Connor" (Heart of a Champion or some such title) campaign to bring VK back...this just after it seemed like 99% of fandom was rejoicing at that character being gone.

cubiclesatan | March 06, 00:56 CET

Okay...I understand how everyone does not want "shipper-closure" because of a future movie...But what if that movie is NEVER made...(pessimist here!)...I need to know...I want her with Angel...they MUST end up together...I need to know that all is right with the universe and Buffy and Angel find each other again...I cannot handle any other ending!!!!!!...okay...I'm all right...everything is fine...as I was saying...I need closure and that therapy I mentioned earlier! :)

[ edited by Coll on 2004-03-05 23:08 ]

Coll | March 06, 01:07 CET

But not trying to make you have an epileptic seizure or anything but that would be the type of twist Joss Whedon would do. Afterall, hasn't there been rumors that Connor might return, and now a possible Buffy return??!!

*Gurgle*! *spasm*!

Hee hee! Just having fun with you!!

You are evil and must be destroyed...............

Sorry about putting that evil visual in your head. I had the same thing happen to me when someone mentioned to me a fanfic that involved Buffy and Snyder and that is all I'm going to say on that! Ooops, sorry, did I just give you another unwanted visual??!!



*death rattle*.....................

EdDantes | March 06, 01:08 CET

I was always creepily amused at the "Save Connor" (Heart of a Champion or some such title) campaign to bring VK back...this just after it seemed like 99% of fandom was rejoicing at that character being gone.

The following is speculation, not a spoiler, but I'll hide it just to be safe because there were some rumors about it ... His character's done? I thought he was still destined to kill Sahjhan.

[ edited by Scott on 2004-03-05 23:15 ]

Scott | March 06, 01:15 CET

I'd only want Buffy back if they told a story that didn't have to do with her love life. I really just want both Spike and Angel to be over her. Not pining, not hoping maybe someday if I shanshu I can have her, just... over her. If we see Buffy again, I'd like to see a grown-up. BtVS was about people growing up, and I'd like to see that she has become a happy and fulfilled adult.

zencat | March 06, 01:20 CET

Spike and Angel need to get over Buffy and under each other. Oh, sorry.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-03-06 00:01 ]

electricspacegirl | March 06, 01:59 CET

wrong...

Simpleba | March 06, 02:06 CET

You got the right idea ElectricSpaceGirl!

It's high time for some slash action! I mean, all the viable women are gone, unless you count Harmonica and Lorney Tunes.

Stop brooding and get to buggering! Let Buffy walk in on that!

Rogue Slayer | March 06, 02:36 CET

I think it's more likely that Buffy will choose neither Spike or Angel. Either choosing no one, or perhaps already having chosen someone else entirely different. That sounds more Jossian to me, but it may just be because it's my preferred ending. I think she's so far beyond either of them it would unrealistic she would choose one of these two.

Now if one of them was to become human, I might be more into it.

jeebs | March 06, 02:54 CET

All this talk about Buffy and Connor...I've always thought an interesting way for Connor to return would be as Dawn's boyfriend. I always thought those two kids should get together since they have so much in common. Mind you I'm not campaigning for a Michelle Trachtenberg appearance...just always thought they might make a cute Romeo and Juliet type of couple.

As far as closure on the Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle, I thought I read somewhere that one of the writers or producers of Angel (sorry, I don't remember who) said that if SMG were to appear, they would absolutely not have her choose between Spike or Angel. And, also they would never end the series with either Angel or Spike fulfilling the Shansu prophecy.

mai | March 06, 04:31 CET

Mai, I think it was D. Goddard who said that...

Simpleba | March 06, 04:37 CET

Mai - I wasn't seriously saying that they should fix up Connor and Buffy, mostly just speculation and joking about Joss doing a twist like that. I also thought at some time it would've been cool for Connor and Buffy to meet because they both had such weird lives and came about in mystical ways and feel they were overshadowed by someone more powerful in their lives. But, could you imagine the two of them just sitting around whining about their lives??!! Well, to be fair, I do feel the character of Dawn did grow and become a much nicer character but we never saw that happen with Connor. But I also wondered what would a child produced by them be like? Would it glow and have super powers?

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-03-06 03:54 ]

Firefly Flanatic | March 06, 05:04 CET

"Spike and Angel need to get over Buffy and under each other. Oh, sorry."

And yet another visual for EdDantes to be getting therapy for!

Well, personally I'd go for Buffy chosing both of them if they were willing!! After all she expressed interest when Spike mentioned wrestling and she smiled and got all dreamy looking and asked if there could be oil!!!

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-03-06 03:58 ]

Firefly Flanatic | March 06, 05:54 CET

See, even Buffy's into the slashy Spangel goodness! I rest my case.

electricspacegirl | March 06, 06:12 CET

this thread is turning sick, pretty quickly

norman | March 06, 06:19 CET

If Sarah returns on Angel, I will be the most happy girl in the planet! I love to see her and David together. Buffy have to return to help Angel and then to be with him. Cause that's the way the history start, so that's the way have to finish.
Also, true love never die!

Sonia16571 | March 06, 09:02 CET

This thread just proves that ME should never resolve the triangle. THere are a huge number of Buffy/Spike shippers, Angel/Buffy shippers, people who want Buffy to stay far away and Spike/Angel shippers. Like nothing else, this trio splinters fandom into tiny peices. I love Buffy/Spike, but I wouldn't want to see ANgel's heart torn out to get my ship. (All I ask is one kiss--if she shows up. James/Sarah are so hot together--I love them---oops...spuffy fan girl gushing..sorry)

twiggy | March 06, 09:36 CET