But wasn't there something to do with Connor around this time? Oh well. To me, Connor's purpose and story is done so I'm hoping that this isn't a foiler.

Christopher | March 09, 09:38 CET

i am hoping this is a foiler, i don't think i like the sound of this at all...i don't want angels finale to be all about buffy (as much as i luv her, i want some answers about the angel story) and spike and angel looking for her is not want i want this late in the season.

AngelicSlayer | March 09, 09:48 CET

Since the same details are floating around at several places and Clairel has always been a good source, I'm thinking it's not a foiler, but I edited the post just in case.

faith1984 | March 09, 10:00 CET

Eugh. I don't want Buffy on AtS. However? I do want Dawn -- though from what I've seen I could really do without her appearance too. I'd rather have her go to W&H, but whatever. *goes to live in her own little corner of the fandom*

Amberina | March 09, 10:01 CET

When I posted the news on the SV newsgroup, a member had this to add:

"The Entertainment Reporter on the WPIX New York Morning News, announced that Sarah Michelle Gellar had contacted the producers of "Angel" about guest-starring on one upcoming "Angel" episode."

faith1984 | March 09, 10:32 CET

Voy archives like mad sometimes so I may change your link to Tensai's summary at Spoiler Slayer. Great spoilers btw never expected this kinda of episode. Roman Holiday or Eurotrip :).

Simon | March 09, 11:15 CET

Got nothing better to do at 3 in the morning, so I changed the link.

Also, apologies for all the edits I seem to inevitably make. AOL often misbehaves and does the opposite of what I want it to and there are far, far too many days until I switch to Verizon.

faith1984 | March 09, 12:10 CET

Not that I'm not pleased by this cause really never thought Michelle T would return after her last few articles and statements about the way Dawn was handled - not to mention isn't she currently in the middle of filming her next film.

Also wasn't it just a last Wed deKnight was complaining about not having written the episode yet and how it was already late and Goddard was going to help - and not even a week later the entire story is leaked ..... hmmmm ..... seems a bit funny but maybe they don't care anymore.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-03-09 10:37 ]

RavenU | March 09, 12:32 CET

Perhaps Michelle doesn't actually appear in the episode. For the last few episodes I'm trying my best to remain somewhat spoiler free, but when I skimmed the summary over I didn't see anything that couldn't be done without her. Spike or Angel could simply comment that Dawn opened the door - never know. From her remarks in some of her more recent interviews, Michelle doesn't appear to have any interest in reprising her role.

faith1984 | March 09, 12:38 CET

Also Spike suposidly describes Buffy as blond hair and blue eyes - but aren't Buffy's eyes hazel why would Spike of all people get it wrong.

It said Dawn greeted them which would suggest some dialouge and why on earth after hesitating a couple times when he was going to find her and desiding not to find her - he is going to walk right up to her in a nightclub in Rome. And why not just track her scent like he's done time and time again - a lot of things about this spoiler make no sences.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-03-09 10:53 ]

RavenU | March 09, 12:43 CET

I hadn't given that detail enough thought. Spike's been, ahem, up close to Buffy, so I don't know why he would say her eyes were blue. It's a minor error I can overlook if I get my Spuffy ending.

faith1984 | March 09, 12:52 CET

your never going to get your spuffy ending...this isnt Buffy anymore the show is called Angel,which means hero gets the girl if the show is really ending they wont bow out on a sombre note like that.

willowzbitch | March 09, 13:30 CET

Why thank you, willowzbitch, for clarifying the name of the show for all of us. I was a bit confused. Here i thought it was called Bangel. Isn't my face just red.

And unlike some, i don't consider the non-B/A4evah!!!!!111omg!!!!!! ending at all somber. In fact, i would find it incredibly satisfying.

[ edited by syd on 2004-03-09 11:47 ]

syd | March 09, 13:45 CET

I have to disagree willowzbitch (probably because I do want a spuffy ending), yes the show is called "Angel", but it's also run by a guy called Joss Whedon, who never gives the audience what they expect, he doesn't follow the normal rules, eg. the hero gets the girl.

Either vamp could win the prize of Buffy's heart, and as I've said many a time before, Spike deserves it so much more than Angel.

Ghost Spike | March 09, 14:06 CET

Not that I even care anymore (if pressed I'd still lean toward Spike and Buffy, though truly I don't want ANYONE with her), but Joss and Fury have both stated that there just won't BE a resolution to that love triangle crap. They're not gonna tie everything up nice and neat. So it really hardly matters who the popular 'ship is, it's never gonna sail.

Haunt | March 09, 17:30 CET

ohh man i hope she shows up. this is great news to me.

norman | March 09, 17:46 CET

although i dont like the idea of them having her involved with another "big bad" it makes it seem like she stupid or something. from season 7 of buffy they showed her pretty grown up and mature, now it just seems like they have taken her down a notch. maybe shes trying to take this demon down too, who knows. i just hope its not going to be as stupid as it kindof sounds. i do want to see her reaction to spike being alive. but either way, i hope she does come back

norman | March 09, 17:53 CET

I cannot believe how little willpower I have. I told myself that I would be spoilerfree for the rest of the season...but I can't do it!!! I can't help myself!!! So much for trying!!! I hope that this is true. I've made it no secret that I would like to see Angel Shanshu and live happily ever after with Buffy. Whatever Joss gives us, I'm sure will be great.

Coll | March 09, 18:03 CET

if she does show up, im sure it wont be till the last episode. based on her comments i dont think shes around right now to be apart of these yet.

norman | March 09, 18:05 CET

I must say it completely mystifies me the insistence some folks have that Buffy must end up with someone at all. It's even more mystifying that people want this ridiculous (imho) "triangle" resolved. This is Angel and BtVS folks-one of the reasons both shows are so good is that they've defied convention. Why the need to have them bound to a formulaic ending? I really do not understand. Buffy spent years denying her human personhood, or at least having her human life completely ripped apart by her destiny. And now she's free of that and is one hopes discovering who she really is and what she really want -or , hell, maybe she's just relaxing, f*cking around with yet another demon, but carefree and happy--but you want her to shack up with one of the two men, no vampires, she's already had disastrous relationships with? And that would be a happy ending? For any of them?

I shake my head. I just don't get it....

jeebs | March 09, 18:06 CET

Jeebs...it's fine that you don't get it...I don't get why they should be apart...so we're even. Different paths for different people. We'll see what we get in the end.

[ edited by Coll on 2004-03-09 16:28 ]

Coll | March 09, 18:25 CET

But in all seriousness, what makes that a happy ending? In your imagination, what do you see her life being post-choosing one of these two? What do either of these relationships offer her? How are either of these vampires really going to make her happy and help her live her human life (outside of her bedroom)?

jeebs | March 09, 18:35 CET

Am I the only one here who thinks this is more foiler than spoiler - I mean there seems to be to many flaws in this spoiler for it to be real esspecially with it being one of the last 3 episodes of the season - it feels a bit scattered and loose. Also would not put it past the writers to do this serious misdirection at this point - unless like I said before they no longer care and I can't see that happening from these guys.

RavenU | March 09, 18:46 CET

i dont think a demon called "the immortal" could either........but hey, i think out of all the years the buffyverse has been going on, she probably now gets that she can probably never be happy with a "normal" person. at least i wouldnt. i still want to see her there, but not necessarily to end the triangle (which we all know wont happen) but joss better not make her there to hurt anyone, or just be a BITCA. i want her to help, and have a good reason to be on the show. i want it to end with all of them working together. that would be awesome

norman | March 09, 18:47 CET

Oh good god. I hope NOT. I said it on an earlier posting, I'll say it again, because two people posting here have proved me RIGHT - I don't want SMG on the show in the final episodes because it won't be worth the inevitable stupid shipper war. I think it's dumb to begin with that they would have Buffy shacking up with yet another demon. It's gotten OLD. It's trite. ANGEL the show is not about who Buffy ends up with - not even BtVS was about that. Get over it, already.

cubiclesatan | March 09, 18:50 CET

well jeebs...I'm thinking if Angel does indeed shanshu...then hence he's human...he could offer what any other human male could...and I'm not talking bedroom...I'm talking about normal relationship with a man she has always loved. ...Satan...I mean cubiclesatan...I choose not to get over it, thank you very much. I have the right to my opinion as you do.

[ edited by Coll on 2004-03-09 17:26 ]

Coll | March 09, 19:21 CET

Coll, what bugs me MOST isn't people's opinions on whether to go B/A or B/S per se, it's how the whole argument inevitably dwindles down to a schoolyard fight. "Angel deserves it more" no "Spike deserves it more". "It's Angel's show" vs. "Spike's cooler and has dreamy Cher cheekbones." It's like Buffy is objectified in light of Spike and Angel and who gets to "have" her. She's not some possession, for one. To treat her like some prize in a cracker jack box is demeaning.

[ edited by cubiclesatan on 2004-03-09 17:45 ]

cubiclesatan | March 09, 19:45 CET

And that is my objection as well, coll. I for one, don't care whether it's Spike or Angel. (or for that matter, my first choice-Willow ) It's that Buffy (or anyone for that matter, but especially Buffy, a true female hero) must end up with someone else in order to have a happy ending.

stupid as the cookies speech was, it showed that Buffy was struggling with the importance of trying to become who she -Buffy-really is. That the struggle to be free and find her own self was worthwhile and necessary and was in reality, the only way she could hope to find true happiness and freedom. And she realized that at least for now, in order to do it, she needed to be alone, or at least not in a capital R romance with anyone.

To show that heroic self-created quest set aside would truly be a heartbreaking end for me. Both from a critical standpoint-that ME would stoop to so trite of an ending, and from a personal standpoint-that Buffy who wants to be the hero in her own life, would be so willing to let her quest be subsumed after just a few months. She deserves more.

[ edited by jeebs on 2004-03-09 18:41 ]

jeebs | March 09, 20:40 CET

i just want to see her on there. i like the character, i like the actor, although as i stated above, i dont like how they are bringing her on right now....with another relationship with a "so called" bad guy......but we will have to see how everything turns out. in the end, shes not going to end up with anybody....so i hope she can play a good part in the ending of the buffyverse.

norman | March 09, 21:04 CET

I understand both your points. I am not one of those people who post bashing comments against Spuffies. I never considered myself a Bangle...hell I didn't even know these terms existed until a while ago. I like to think of myself in another league. I state my thoughts and that is it. I guess I just don't like the feeling of being attacked because of my thoughts. I completely respect what you both are saying...I guess I always had this scenario in my head and it is what I hope for. But I am intelligent enough to remember that I am "reading" Joss's "book". So to say. I trust what he delivers is the way it was meant to be. I'm leaving it up to fate. That's all. Does that make any sense?

Coll | March 09, 21:21 CET

Am I completely wrong in wanting to see Buffy hook up with Lorne?

splay | March 09, 21:28 CET

I wasn't going to log in but splay you really made me laugh. I mean *really*. I sounded like Buffy when she found out Harmony had minions.

marmoset | March 09, 21:32 CET

I admit it, I'm Spuffy all the way. I can't help it.

I read yesterday that the Canadian TV GUIDE chose Spike/Buffy as the third greatest TV couple. There are obviously some people out there that just don't see it as automatically an Angel/Buffy ending.

If we are going there, and dammit, they may, I prefer it as ambiguous, and nobody knows who she chooses or if she does.... OF course, I'd love to see Spike gets the girl cause he is always there, always trying but he never does really get anything, does he?

That's just my Spike lovin' fan girl opinion.

twiggy | March 09, 21:47 CET

I think I will have to bow down to Splay as well.

Other than Lorne, the only other acceptable thing would be to have Buffy hook up with the copy machine toner-sucking demon on a chain.

I mean, seriously, it's not like Buffy would slay it for destroying...toner cartridge's lives. Right?

cubiclesatan | March 09, 21:49 CET

Buffy + Krevlornswath of the DeathWok Clan 4evuh!!!

well-played Splay.

and coll, no bashing intended, just challenging you. My apologies if you felt bashed. Let's have a seabreeze and call it even...

jeebs | March 09, 22:17 CET

i know that nothing will be resolved between the triangle (and it probably shouldnt) but IF! it was, im not sure who i would want buffy to end up with. i like her with both angel and spike. angel left her (we all know the reasons) but he still left nonetheless. that points me towards spike (and season 7 showed us that buffy does really care about him and if given more time it could go somewhere) but then there is the whole true love factor...........its so hard to decide........................anyway.........

norman | March 09, 22:21 CET

Bangelistas, Spuffyists--please! Calm down! [CJL waves arms over head to draw the attention of the 'ship-crazed combatants; he's promptly pinned to the wall by an arrow] Ow.

OK, now that I have your attention... [Slowly, painfully, extracts arrow from right shoulder] Ah. That's better.

As to 5.20: Doesn't anybody else think this episode is going to be screamingly funny?

It's shaping up to be sort of a meta-commentary on the entire Buffyverse saga, with Angel and Spike reliving the bad old days in Europe, Buffy in love with a morally questionable immortal (what, again?) and the B/S/A triangle now reshaping itself into a quadrilateral. Plus, I think the "Wolfram e Hart" office is ME's little shot at the WB for strangling their budget, and I half expect doppelgangers of the entire Fang Gang to be wandering the halls. Since the head of W&H Italy is female, there might be a male Harmony at the secretary's desk. (The very concept could make my head explode.)

But besides the yucks, the sides show an honest-to-gosh theme running here. Spike and Angel revisit their past (in good times and evil), but find that they've left that past behind. Illyria impersonates Fred, but that's not who she is anymore, either. All our previous guideposts for these characters no longer apply. Over the next six eps, I don't see apocalypse approaching as much as radical transformation. Emerging from chyrsalis into a new, uncertain but exciting future.

CJL

cjl | March 09, 22:25 CET

CJL, it certainly does sound good. It sounds like it may be reminding us that individuals and their wants and desires are just little specks that get swept up along in the great tide of history, different souls in different bodies over and over.

or not...

jeebs | March 09, 22:30 CET

To quote the sides:

ANGEL: "That what you’re worried about? Or just playing the big hero for Buffy."

SPIKE: "Look, I know I don’t have a shot with her, all right? Probably never did. But I still care about her. And I’m not gonna let her end up with a creep like The Immortal. Or you."

This isn't about ending or resolving any ship. This is once again about Angel and Spike and I'm shocked that anyone is not seeing this. From what i've read, this is shaping up to be a rather dark comedic episode, and to really show that A/S can still continue their conraderie even in the wake of one of their biggest rivalries.

Also, I don't think we will be seeing Buffy, here. Maybe a glimpse of her at the end, IF they can get SMG, but i doubt it. I also don't think that Buffy is actually *with* "The Immortal". It is far more likely for it to turn out to be someone else completely, or for this to be a ploy of Buffy's part for HER to handle the big bad. I can completely envision a scene of her rolling her eyes at her "rescuers" for treating her as the damsel.

Whether it's possible that we will see Buffy later in the season, like the finale, i can't say, but i do not think this ep proves anything new about the relationships. Angel and Spike both love Buffy, Spike is still rather down on himself about Buffy, as he has been since the soul. The best thing about this, as i can see, is that the bond between Spike and Angel is rather strong and I'm glad for that.

syd | March 09, 23:04 CET

I think it'll probably be that there'll be a big shock at the end of the 20th episode, Buffy opening the door to Spike or something, then Buffy will have a big part in episode 21 before Angel and Spike, (or hopefully a heartbroken Angel leaving Spuffy behind) return to LA for the finale.

syd, SMG has said a few times in the last couple of weeks that she wants to come back, and has explained why she cancelled her original appearence.

Ghost Spike | March 09, 23:15 CET

>>SMG has said a few times in the last couple of weeks that she wants to come back, and has explained why she cancelled her original appearence.<<

Oh, i know, but it is all still up in the air, what with her filming schedule and a deal between her and the show. We still have no definite word about *anything*, really, and we also have varying reports from SMG and Joss, with SMG saying that no one has approached her, while Joss has said he put his "feelers" out...

So, again, we are still in the dark. But as far as the sides go, it's looking like Buffy herself won't be appearing. Though, ME is known for those surprise twists in the end, like the "You're Welcome" ending that was not released until a couple days before the ep actually aired. I guess anything is possible, I'm simply disappointed. Bringing SMG in will not resolve anything and will likely be just another tease and distraction to the loyal fans, as was DB's unneeded apearance in the last 2 eps of BtVS.

EDITED TO CLARIFY: "just another tease and distraction to MANY of the loyal fans"

[ edited by syd on 2004-03-09 22:31 ]

syd | March 09, 23:59 CET

I'm a loyal fan...have watched since Episode One, Season One of BTVS and have watched from Episode One, Season One of AtS. I don't see it as a tease or distraction to the loyal fans. I'm one and would love to see SMG on.

Coll | March 10, 00:06 CET

me too.......i want to see her, and i hope they have a good roll for her in the show

norman | March 10, 01:23 CET

Dude, you 'ship Buffy/Lorne? That's SO wrong! Everyone knows she belongs with Illyria! *cough*

Amberina | March 10, 09:27 CET