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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
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March 10 2004

Vote! Should Buffy end up with Angel or Spike? You decide in this somewhat pointless TV Guide poll, where there's not even a "none of the above" category.

Pointless, agreed. And irritating because the assumption is that who BUFFY chooses is one of the Big Questions that should be answered before Angel rides off into the sunset. SMG had it right in her interview when she said that BtVS often casts an all too large shadow over AtS. At least in terms of media chatter.

Except that even the silliest publicity is publicity, and god knows the more publicity ME projects get, the better.
Well, it's a question that is asked of many shows. Who will Joey choose? Dawson or Pacey. Who will Rachel choose. Ross or Joey. Who will Seth choose? etc, etc, etc. With that said, not that annoying since it's common.

Can you guess who I voted for? It's quite obvious :)
Should have been a "Neither" choice, I agree. But if she has to end up with one of them, it should be Spike. She and Angel have both moved on.
I really hoped they would leave Buffy out of it, since she has never been an important part of the "Angel" universe. With so little time left, the show should focus on its own characters.
Yes, there should've been a neither button, but if I had to pick, it would be Angel. My reason is, Buffy doesn't love Spike, he knew it when she said it that she didn't really mean it. I think if there had been a season 8 of Buffy we would've seen Buffy and Spike fall in love, but they weren't there yet. Her reaction to Angel and his reaction to her, clearly showed they still had strong feelings for each other. So I doubt Buffy would show up and out of the blue choose Spike. She was upset when she thought he was dead but when she sent Angel to Hell and thought he was dead, her world shattered.

But, I honestly don't think she'd choose either one of them. She made it clear to Angel that she wasn't ready for a relationship and she wanted to go out and figure out who she was. I can see her showing up to come and see Spike because she found out he is alive. They had a great friendship and strong feelings for each other (again, were heading for being in love if the story had another season to grow). And I can see her staying to help fight the big bad, but I highly doubt after all that she'll pull a bachelorette and say "I choose you" to either of them.

But, I can see why SMG had her apprehensions about wanting to guest star for the finale. TV Guide is making it sound like it would be all about Buffy and it shouldn't be at all. Buffy coming back should be in a supportive, helping manner, not as the main event.
I don't think you can really compare Buffy sending Angel to hell and Spike dying to save the world. The first one was heart-wrenching because she knowingly had to send her lover to hell, she fought him, watched him get re-ensouled before her eyes, knew he was clueless as to the carnage he was about to wreak, and had to send him anyway. Her mother had told her not to come back home, her friends never supported her relationship with Angel, Giles would have very much liked to kill Angel himself, so her natural reaction was to withdraw from those people and split town for a while.

Spike, on the other hand, made a decision on his own. She tried to stop him, but saw his determination, she saw how important it was for him. And she probably thought if he was dying this way, his soul might find some peace, being that his last act was one of ultimate goodness.(She knew that Angel was probably not in a good place). And, she had the potentials and council to focus on after he died.

Now, that being said, I agree that she didn't love Spike the way she USED to love Angel. And yeah, another season would have probably provided a nice romance. But I think she loved Spike at least as much as her other friends, and if she had to kill them(like she killed Angel) I think her world would have shattered too. I know, it's not as 'romantic' an idea to kill your best friend versus killing your lover, but Buffy loved her friends and I think she would have been in a terrible state if she had to kill Spike.

But, remember, Buffy has changed a lot. In season 2 she was all of 16? Very angsty and hard to get over stuff like that. In season 5, no one could touch Dawn over the Glory thing. But in season 7 she admitted that she would sacrifice someone close if that were necessary. So I think that would apply to Angel too. If Angel died as Spike died, I think Buffy would react the same. Because she had something to focus on--finding potentials, setting up the council or whatever she was doing. In Season 2, she only had her grief to focus on.
they did this poll when buffy was ending. she wont end up with anybody no matter how much we want it. she was supposed to guest star in an episode like this before she said she wasnt coming back. i doubt she appears in this episode but maybe in the finale i hope. but i still say that the way they are bringing her back seems cheesy right now. i hope it plays out better when i see the episode.
Even as late as season 7 Buffy exclaimed to Xander that she never loved anyone like she loved Angel and she had to kill him. Obviously it still devasted her to have to do that. And the episode of Angel when Angel becomes a human and tells Buffy in the end that he's wiping her memory, she again is devasted (no longer a 16 year old girl, but now a college student). Then when her mother died, Angel was right there for her, they spent the night under the tree holding each other. She stated she never wanted it to end. Then when she came back from the dead, when Angel called she immediately went to him. Of course because of different networks we never got to see any of that. But there has been a history of them talking and being there for important times.

And for arguments sake, Buffy turned seventeen the night she and Angel made love, and had to kill Angel at the end of the season so she was now closer to being 18, Willow always supported Buffy and encouraged Buffy when it came to Angel. Giles never really indicated he disapproved (until after Angel came back). He even commented, "A slayer in love with a vampire, how poetic" and he quite often seeked Angel out for information. Xander was really the only one who constantly harrassed her about Angel and a lot of that was jealousy. Teenagers get into fights with their parents all the time (believe me, I have two of them) and things are said that aren't meant. Joyce called Buffy on that when Buffy tried to use it as an excuse (Joyce telling her not to come back)and Joyce told her off about it, stating that Buffy knew she didn't mean it. When Buffy came back, she kept dreaming of Angel, in loving situations. If it was more her being upset about having to kill him, she'd be having nightmares reliving that moment over and over again and she never did. She dreamed about being in love with him.

And even if your argument about Joyce telling Buffy to leave is correct, Giles or Willow would've gladly taken her in. Giles was badly tortured by Angel and Willow was badly injured as well yet Buffy had a quick glance at them and got on the bus and left town, never calling to see how they were doing. So yes, I still think it is a fair comparison how she reacted to Angel's "death" and Spike's "death".

And Angel in "Amends" wanted to sacrifice himself because he was a danger to Buffy and Buffy couldn't cope with that and was desperate to stop him. Angel felt he was doing the right thing too.

If it had been Angel in Spike's place and it was back when they were clearly in love, Buffy would've been just as devasted as she was when she killed Angel. And I think if Buffy had been clearly in love with Spike she would've been devasted too.

And I highly doubt that if it had been Dawn, Willow, or Xander wearing that amulet at the end and had been the one to sacrifice herself instead of Spike, that Buffy would've been able to smile and look ahead to the future.
Yeah. No thanks. When they put Lorne on there, then I'll vote.

She should crawl back to Giles on her hands and knees.
Completely, totally, without a doubt agree with blwessels and that is all I'm saying since I got my ass kicked on a previous post regarding this same question. Yep...absolutely with you blwessels.
Angel and Buffy were lame together. Spike and Buffy were at least interesting...up until the last handful of BtVS eps anyway.
Buffy doesn't have to be in any episode of Angel for this triangle to be resolved. They can dedicate a 5 minute scene to it, where either Spike or preferrable Angel is on the phone, smiling from ear to ear chatting with the cookie dough girl. Which ever way it goes, I just want it to be resolved. She picks one or she picks niether... just make it clear and definate, hence I can get mad and get over it or rejoice and shove it in spuffers faces. Simple really!!
Well all I can say is if it was Angel she truly loved I think she would have had him stay and face the 'end' with her. If I'm afraid I might not make it through what could be my last days on Earth...I would want to spend those last days with the one I loved. So I guess that means....hmmmmmmm....Angel got sent home....Buffy spent those last days in Spike's arms. Guess she was just comforting a soon to be dying man....
That said...I doubt she will choose either. Spike died to give her a new chance at a real life.....I guess he loved her that much. Angel hasn't seen her in 4 years , had Connor with Darla, loved Cordy and now is seeing Nina. But I guess he still thinks he has the right to run her life too.
I wish she would choose one has loved her more,but I doubt the writers have the courage to let it happen.
Spuffy all the way! :-) Actually, I think this is pointless. Buffy won't choose either of them, so why argue about it? We all have our own preference, but that doesn't mean that its going to happen.
That fact is, she just wasn't in love with Spike. He said it at the end, Joss has stated it, James Marsters has stated it, David has stated that Angel will always love Buffy and SMG has stated that Buffy will always love Angel. So why would she choose him? I loved Buffy and Spike together and where they were heading. They didn't have them get to the point where they were in love with each other. It was happening, they were developing a relationship, but they weren't there yet. Spike didn't die for Buffy, that was the whole point. He had gone and gotten his soul to prove something to Buffy but once he got it, he realized there was more to it. He wanted to become a good person and do the right things. It wasn't to impress Buffy. He did all that trying to impress her when he was still a demon but he wasn't doing it for the right reasons. Spike sacrificed himself to save the world.

I also loved Buffy and Angel together, but I was happy to see the relationship that Buffy and Spike were developing. They were heading for the best relationship, one that is first built on friendship and trust and then comes love. But it didn't get to that point, the series ended with them being friends.

That's why it shouldn't be resolved. If there ever is to be a movie, that would be the time to resolve it. That way there would be a chance for her to really figure out what she wants. Yes, she never loved anyone like she did Angel, but they haven't been in each other's lives and they both have changed. She was also developing something with Spike but it was cut short by his "death".

Kathylovesspike - "Well all I can say is if it was Angel she truly loved I think she would have had him stay and face the 'end' with her. If I'm afraid I might not make it through what could be my last days on Earth...I would want to spend those last days with the one I loved."

They actually discussed whether he should stay or go. Buffy wanted him to leave because if they failed, she wanted a second front to try and stop what would be coming. That showed she had a great deal of trust in Angel, doesn't indicate that she didn't love him or loved Spike more.

Cal - I don't think anyone was arguing on who Buffy should choose. RogueSlayer and I just disagree on certain aspects of Buffy's feelings and history but both agreed that she really shouldn't choose anyone.
The chance of us getting a Buffy/Angel movie is slim to none seeing as how, SMG has to be persuaded to even return to the role of Buffy. If it's that hard to get her for the spin off, it's gonna be that much harder for a movie. I really don't think we will be getting a Buffy/Angel movie (at least not staring DB and SMG).

Anywho, I'm the type that needs closure. I don't like things left up in the air. It leaves room for arguments and assumptions, all of which sucks. Dawson's Creek had closure. Ed had closure, Friends from what I hear is also gonna have closure, regarding romantic entangelments. Voyager had closure... Many shows with triangles whether canceled and given a chance to run out their season or ended on their own gave it's fans closure, and that is what I want.
Re Caroline's post:
She should crawl back to Giles on her hands and knees.

Well if Buffy won't take him, I sure will!
Please do not buy into the movie line the WB offered - cause it's a smoke screen - to try to offset the backlash it knew it would recieve. It's not going to happen.

And OMG - if it wasn't enough about with networks remaking shows now what the heck is up with making TV movies about the bts of shows. One wonders why networks are losing viewers obviously the execs aren't watching there own networks. But it begs the question do you think we'll see "BTVS behind the stakes and lies" (cause all these TV movies talk about the lies) in about 10-20 years?
"Pointless...and irritating because the assumption is that who Buffy chooses is one of the Big Questions that should be answered..."

Amen to that. In my experience, there is no such thing as closure. From someone dying to a favourite show being cancelled. Everything becomes part of your life experience in ways you may not even be aware of. You just can't put things in a box and tie them up with a neat little bow and say, "Mission accomplished. Buffy and Angel or Buffy and Spike are now going to live happily ever after." Life doesn't work like that and Joss Whedon shows certainly don't either. Why should she choose? She has to learn not to be defined by the men in her life. Hence the cookie dough speech.Turn it around and ask if Angel or Spike would choose her. I think all three of them are moving on. That's what makes the cancellation so heartbreaking for the development of the Spike and Angel characters. Where do they go from here?
blwessels - I wasn't suggesting that you and Rogue Slayer were arguing about who Buffy should choose, just about the situation in general.

Everywhere you go on the internet people are arguing over who Buffy should be with. I just don't think that this will be resolved before the seasons end, if ever. Everyone has their own opinion on what they think should happen and no amount of discussion or arguing is going to change their minds about that.

It's a shame that this is what people are focusing on. I don't want Angel to finish with it all being about Buffy. This show is too good for that.

Never mind - whatever will be will be, regardless of what anyone wants. Only Joss knows how it will all end.
i dont think it will be resolved either, but this same thing happened when buffy was finishing up. these same arguments and that show wasnt about angel.......look how it turned out. probably the same thing will happen here. but i still want to see buffy there since she (no matter how you try to forget) is a part of angel and spikes lives (too much history there). since this is the end, i want to see her in it. and i agree, there probably wont be any movies so thats especially why i want to see her there for a great finish.
The thing is, the characters have moved on. Sure, they'll always love each other (all three) like Xander and Anya still cared deeply, like Buffy and Riley will always care deeply. All these people all loved each other deeply and none of the relationships ended sour so.....yeah sure there'll always be some love there. (See the scenes where Angel comes back at her mom's funeral. See Riley coming back and making a big change in her life, etc.)

But that doesn't mean they didn't move on. Buffy moved on pretty quickly considering how fast she jumped on Parker, and went for Riley. Angel moved on later(Clearly shown by how easily he handled Buffy's death, far easier than Spike did) And I think by now, even Spike has moved on. He undoubtedly still loves her but he's his own man now, maybe for the first time in his life. Doing things because HE feels he has to, because he has a purpose he believes in and not to please some woman.

It's also obvious that Joss and the writers have moved on. (Not going into the actors, since I don't really care what they say here, and they tend to change their tune in interviews.) The main reason these are still issues is that some people in the audience can't move on. ("Buffy & Angel/Spike 4 EVAH!" anyone?;-)

Hey, I was into 'bangel' back then. I wiped some tears away at 'Becoming'. Or 'I Will Remember You'. Then Spike's plight started and I was deeply into that. Throughout S6 I was hoping for a glimpse of her for him. But what I really care about is the characters and their development, and they've moved on! It would feel like turning back the clock for any of them. NONE OF THE ABOVE, I say.

For the record, what I think:
-Buffy loved Angel more than she did Spike,
-Spike loved her more than Angel did.
-If there was a S8 with souled Spike or if Angel was curseless, she could easily be happy with either of them.
-By now EVERYONE has moved on. Except chunks of audience.
blwessels, to me the "second front" excuse seemed like a load of b*ll*x, she knew it would be difficult to convince Angel and Spike to fight side-by-side, so she chose to fight with Spike.

If the first got past Sunnydale, why would Buffy imagine that one vampire, 3 humans, and a karaoke singing demon would stand a better chance than 2 slayers, a vampire, a witch, and dozens of girls who had been training hard for months, she wouldn't.

At this point (it's later in the evening when she imagines for the first time that she might win) she is sure that she's going to die, she's going to give it her all, but she's convinced they'll lose, she decides that she'd rather die at Spike's side, than at Angel's.
I hate these debates. Pointless and irritating? Oh, yeah. It's too easy for shippers (of either stripe) to ignore the frickin' story and themes already in progress and make it all about a ship. The only ship I'll sail on is the Angel/Spike ship! Admittedly, however, ships, like mine, work best as fantasies (ie., fanfic), not for the kind of daring storytelling that Joss champions.

Fantasies are a dime a dozen. If you want to see Spike or Angel end up with Buffy, then read a fanfic, because that's the only way you'll get that ending.

Meanwhile, there's a great story being told about Angel and Spike where Buffy is not the real issue. And she shouldn't be. For chrissakes, she's not a sodding cup of Torment to be fought over and won! Actually, considering it was a mislead, the Cup of Torment does make a nice metaphor for Buffy, or the idea of Buffy. Hah!
I shamelessly choose Buffy and Spike. I can't even argue about it, I'm so biased. Since it is Angel's show, I'm sure I have no hope at all, and Spike would once again be a loser in love no matter how hard he tries.
Well, it should be neither. To me, Buffy already chose who she wanted to be with at the end of Chosen. Herself. So I'm thinking that these guys have already had closure.

She was with Angel, it didn't work out. They don't fit into each other's lives anymore.

She was hardly with Spike, (if you would even say so) but to me, it was more of a friend ship thing like Angel and Cordy had. Besides, if Spike loved her back, he'd be with her. I want to know the REAL reason why Spike won't leave W&H or ATLEAST contact Buffy.
Ghost Spike - Buffy had the opportunity to die at Spike's side but she left him there and chose to live.


"For the record, what I think:
-Buffy loved Angel more than she did Spike,
-Spike loved her more than Angel did.
-If there was a S8 with souled Spike or if Angel was curseless, she could easily be happy with either of them.
-By now EVERYONE has moved on. Except chunks of audience."

I agree with all your points there.

I think most people who have posted said they don't want to see it resolved or it makes no sense to resolve it. I agree with that. RavenU - when I mentioned a possible movie, it was the movie Joss Whedon talked about possibly doing in the future, on the big screen. Not something the WB was talking about. I have no illusions that will ever happen.

I do think it's more important to just focus on Angel and Spike and their relationship. I feel that the real reason Spike is staying is because of Angel. If Spike wanted to be with Buffy, he'd have gone to her a long time ago.

Cal - These boards are about our thoughts on these shows and no one is going to think alike, so people will disagree and have discussions. You see them as arguments, I see them as discussions. I felt I made good points, and I think Rogue Slayer made good points. I totally love these shows and love the discussions I read about these shows. It's interesting to me to see different view points than my own. It makes the shows even more interesting to me when someone has a different take than I do and sometimes it makes me see the episode differently.

And if all these posts about shippers are targeted towards me and RogueSlayer, you missed the point of our discussion. We both stated we didn't want Buffy to choose anyone. I opened my intial posting saying that I don't think she should choose either one but if she had to why I thought it should be Angel. That doesn't mean I was against Spike, I explained why I didn't think it made sense for it to be Spike. RogueSlayer didn't agree with my views on Buffy's reactions to Angel's death and Spike's death and that's where the discussion stemmed from. It had nothing to do with being a shipper for either character. I think both relationships were believable and given time, I think Buffy would've fallen in love with Spike too.

And from what I've seen, the majority of posters don't want to see it be all about Buffy. Yes, there are some that say closure is important but the majority thinks they've all moved on and we want to see the most important relationship be between Angel and Spike. And that's not saying people don't want Buffy to be there for the end. We just don't want it to be all about her and having her choose someone would seem to do that.

Of course it all comes down to how Joss wants to end it. I've been pleased with everything he's done so far and I'm sure I won't be disappointed at all in what he has happen. I even totally enjoyed the much disputed seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy.
Spike told her to leave, he was definitely going to die, he couldn't have copied her roof-jumping, he'd have burst into flames, as much as she cared for Spike, it would have made no sense for her to just stand around and wait with him to turn to dust, then wait to be crushed.
Basically, it comes down to interpretation. We all have our views on how Buffy felt, but, for the record, Joss has NEVER definitively stated anything about how Buffy felt for Spike. He has NEVER said she loved him or didn't love him, and has always purposely played it off that that question was open for interpretation. And as far as what the actors *feel*, well, there is a reason that the actors are NOT the writers. Trust the story, not the teller, guys :)

The idea that we can say how devastated Buffy was or wasn't at the end of Chosen in comparison to the end of Becoming is really...well, uncomparable. Buffy is an entirely different person now. She felt completely lost at the end of Becoming, feeling as if she lost everything at that point. No, not just her twu wuv, but her family and friends as well. However, with Spike, his death was a sacrifice of his own volition and it was him giving her a chance at a life, something he has always done for her. We can all interpret that smile the way we want, but i do believe that Buffy was at the point that she understood sacrifice. She has stated that she would sacrifice Dawn now, because she understood something more about her calling. Understood more about what was right and just.

In the end, though, what will it matter? This ending is not about who Buffy chooses, as much as some us seem to think. And this poll certainly doesn't matter, since i can't exactly se ME seeing the results and slapping themselves in the forehead and saying, "Oh! They were right all along! We must rewrite the ending!" Buffy won't be choosing, it will left to all of us to fanwank to death, and I'm sure Joss iwill rest happily n his Firefly sheets and matching comforter as we argue away. Because, after all, he gave us what we needed, not what we wanted, and that was the point all along.
Vampires shmampires. What Buffy really needs to do is hook up with Owen again. You know, the guy from NKABOTFD. He's the only guy she's ever dated who hasn't done something mean to her. ;)
I'm no shipper nor are shipper posts what I like to write. But I have to say that I pretty much always love reading what Whedonesque posters have to say. You all tend to be a smart and entertaining bunch. I think one of the main reasons I want Angel to continue or some ME show to be on the air in the Fall is I enjoy discussions with fellow fans so much.

I adore me some Whedonesque.

Okay, I give in, one brief comment about Buffy choosing Angel or Spike: as per usual, I hand it to bloodflowers -- I also prize the kind of lack of resolution that Joss et al do so well. I understand arguments from different shipper sides but more than anything I want things to be left open so I can imagine all kinds of scenarios.
I'm against definate closure. I think debates like these are what keeps fandom alive. It's better than waving a finger around at Dawson and Joey fans and going, "YOU WERE WRONG!!"

I think Angel should be left as open ended as Buffy. Even with her confession of love, it was just denied by Spike as invalid the next second. In fact, I wasnt happy with Andrew's updates on the gang... I think it should have been left in the air. "Yeah, Buffy... what are we gonna do now??"

On the shipper front, however, I'm firmly behind Joss's original intention to have Buffy end up with Xander. Too bad. Although I still have visions of her showing up on Angel and invoking the wrath of both Angel and Spike by telling them she's with Xander. ::laughs insanely::

< /ship fantasy>
I like to think that Buffy might choose Spike(if she were to choose, which I don't want her to), just to give them a chance. For the sake of 'what might have been'. She and Angel had their chance, and circumstances sort of wrecked it for them. The circumstances haven't really changed there.

And Spike has no pride, so he will take her as cookie dough. She doesn't have to be cookies for him. Ok, I take that back, he may have grown a little pride by now, but women are always the ruin of him. I think it wouldn't take much for him to fall back into the Buffy-worship.

It always just feels to me like Buffy and Angel have really grown apart, leading completely different lives now. They don't really fit anymore. But then again, Buffy doesn't fit well anywhere, I think. I say Spangel all the way!!!!
Bah. The same old drivel about a woman needing a man to complete her... Buffy/Faith is the only true love! :D
See, I think I'd be disappointed either way. I truly think both relationships worked. And if Angel could have a non-neutered relationship with Buffy, he might not have left her to a "normal" life. But if Buffy and Spike's relationship had a chance to grow, I would've loved that as well.

I do think Spike has changed though because he hasn't gone running after Buffy. So maybe he really feels she doesn't love him but there was something happening between them. If Joss had her choose one over the other I'd feel too bad for the other guy because, frankly, I really do love both Angel and Spike.

I always thought both relationships were great, but I think I would've also liked to have seen what was to come with Buffy and Spike if there had been a season 8. But then again, if only Angel didn't have to worry about the curse... See, no good ending for me, unless she can have them both!!

And I'm with Phlebotinin in liking things kept open so I can imagine what happens. I bought my daughter that "Chosen" book and I glanced at the last page and I didn't like how the author put what she thought Buffy's thoughts were when she smiled at the end. I liked my own thoughts on what I believed that smile meant.
I do find it kind of amusing that so many people took offense to SMG's comments about Angel having trouble getting out of Buffy's shadow as a series, and here's a major poll regarding the Angel finale on a huge website, and what is it about? Buffy. It kind of proves her point perfectly.

Anyway, I've always gone back and forth on who I think is the best for Buffy. Hell, I even liked her with Riley. **ducks flying fruits and various meats** That being said, I kind of think she should end up with Angel. I happen to believe in the kind of love that survives even when you can't be together. Even when you're living thousands of miles apart, having separate relationships, growing as a person, etc...I think that some people will just always know you and understand you and love you. That's how Angel is for Buffy, and that's why I never buy the "they're too different now" debate. So what? Sometimes people need time and space and personal growth before they're ready for each other. Just ask my parents. They met as teenagers, fell in love, grew apart, went and married other people, and years later found their way back to each other, got married and kinda lived happily ever after.

Ain't love grand? :)
"And Spike has no pride, so he will take her as cookie dough"

Wow, that was harsh. And darling Captain Forehead wouldn't have done the same if she had thrown her cookie dough at his feet? Um, yeah...right.
Syd: Firefly sheets and a matching comforter?? Where can I get some of those?? ;)

And since I forgot to state it in my above post, I'm also against the idea of any definitive closure at this point. I'd love to see SMG guest star, but I don't think she should swoop in to choose either Angel or Spike. That would be ridiculous, coming so soon after the marvelous cookie dough revelation. And we know Joss isn't the neat and tidy happy ending type anyway.
Angel or Spike?

Neither, of course.

Now, Angel AND Spike....

No, no, no--I'm not a closet slashfan. I just think it's painfully obvious that the true 'ship in ANGEL S5 is the brotherhood of Angel and Spike, just as the true 'ship in BUFFY S5 was the sisterhood of Buffy and Dawn. (Joss, for all his rep as Toxic Relationship Guy, seems to adore sibling or pseudo-sibling bonds: Willow/Xander, Angel/Spike, Buffy/Dawn, Simon/River, etc.)

Warning! 5.20 spoilers ahead! LEAVE NOW!

[ edited by Caroline on 2004-03-11 00:25 ]
Saturn Girl - Don't forget, Buffy dated Scott Hope for awhile, and he was a normal guy.
Gay, so completely incompatible romatically, but normal.
Ooh... good call ringworm. I keep forgetting Holden gave us that revelation in Conversations with Dead People.
Can't post spoilers in non spoiler threads, even with a big gap in between. In my scroll down I saw something I didn't want to see. Stupid eyes.
This is possibly the most civil A/B/S discussion I've seen ever. Anywhere.


PS. that was hard putting spoiler tags on something with my eyes averted, yo.
Angel wouldn't have accepted it, not because he has more pride, but because nothing's changed between them. He's still got his curse(so I really don't even know why them being together was an issue at the cookie dough point)and probably still wants a 'normal' life for her. Spike knew Buffy would never have a normal life, so he might as well enjoy her cookie dough. And as he himself said: "...’cause the whole “having my pride” thing was just a smokescreen"

Here comes some fruit at ya! Riley! PUHLEASE!! :)

That's how Angel is for Buffy, and that's why I never buy the "they're too different now" debate. So what? Sometimes people need time and space and personal growth before they're ready for each other.

Well, I have to disagree. If you spend most of your life apart and still end up together, you're not different then. You're pretty much the same(in relationship terms). But if you spend your life apart and grow and change(like people tend to do), then you don't always end up the same people you started as. I think this is the case for Buffy and Angel. Face it, she didn't have a mature relationship with either Angel OR Spike. If she were to pick one now, I think either would have a decent chance(ignoring the curse issue, and Angel's tendency to think he knows what's best for Buffy)

I think(and Buffy realized as much herself)that Buffy had to go through all those relationships and issues in her life to ever be ready for a real relationship(not sure if she's there yet). I'd say now, all things being equal, she could have a shot with either boys. But, I really want them to move on from her. Angel needs to find a way to lose his curse, or get around it(because I think he's hiding behind it, like Wes said), then he can really connect with someone. Spike needs to realize that he's not defined by the women in his life, because when it comes to them, he's as maleable as clay(except Harmony). I think this season both guys are coming to terms with those issues. And if we had a season 6, we might get to explore the results of that stuff. But alas....

Ah well, nothing comes of these discussions but more discussion. I hope it's never resolved. I was a Bangel, I was a Spuffy, now I just want Buffy to stay out of the picture.
Ugh, did I accidentally read the spoiler too? I thought the gap was the spoiler and saw something too. I hope that wasn't true and is just a rumor. Please don't do that again! Especially with so few new shows left!! I totally avoid the threads that have spoiler tags on them for that reason. Now I'm depressed.
"Angel wouldn't have accepted it, not because he has more pride, but because nothing's changed between them."

You know, i really agree with everything you've said, but this about Spike and Angel in terms of pride. It's funny, i never thought it was pride that kept Angel from Buffy. I thought it was more self-loathing, as he feels he is not deserving of this girl in the light, whom he feels is meant for a normal life. But again, in terms of pride, Angel is the one who lost his son, Cordelia, and sold his and his friends souls, and then arrived as Buffy's knight in leather armor as if it was all just a blink of an eye. I think he would have gobbled up that cookie dough there and then if it didn't reek of Spike. I think with both Spike and Angel, they have a blindspot for Buffy, when any normal sense is not really applicable. But i do think it's rather quick judgement to say that Spike has less pride than Angel. That line from "Chosen" was also done with humor and not to be taken literally. Spike died with a huge amount of pride in himself and his sacrifice for her and the world. To deny him that would be like saying that he only got his soul to get in some bint's pants.

[ edited by syd on 2004-03-11 00:49 ]
i hope that spoiler is not true either..........dont like that scenerio at all. call me old fashioned............
I already said I think Spike did get some of his pride back, but I'm not sure that line was done in QUITE as much humor as you think, being that he really did just roll over for her. So THEN he didn't have much pride, and I think NOW he doesn't have enough to turn Buffy down if she came back and said "I don't love you, but let's see what happens."

And I agree, it wasn't pride that kept Angel from Buffy, but his curse and the issues he has with how he feels her life should be(and yes, what he deserves).
if angel really was over buffy, then he wouldnt get jealous, well, like he always does when he sees or talks to her.......
if angel really was over buffy, then he wouldnt get jealous, well, like he always does when he sees or talks to her.......

Um...not necessarily. Feelings remain, of course, that's what happens with most relationships. When you find out that your ex has moved on, someone who was pretty much your first real love(as it was with Souled!Angel who had just found a purpose), you always get that gnawing jealousy pang, for simply nostalgia's sake. That you were first loves and those firsts will always have that special "She was mine fi-irst!" spot. This doesn't mean that you don't move on, or love again and even better. First loves are learning experiences, but more often than not, you get over them and are better for it.

Oh and Rogue Slayer, i guess we'll just agree to disagree, yeah? :)

[ edited by syd on 2004-03-11 01:34 ]

[ edited by syd on 2004-03-11 01:35 ]
Greyflowers - Oh, I didn't forget about Scott Hope. Remember how he left Buffy dateless for Homecoming? Bad Scott! Loved Faith's "we gotta keep using the ointment" in front of his date. ;)
Not really sure what we're disagreeing on. Maybe the amount of Spike's pride? But I do agree that even if you've moved on, you still feel a little jealous/possessive of your exes. And you can still love someone after you've moved on. I think Buffy will always love Angel AND Spike, just maybe in different ways. And for the record, Angel and Spike love each other too, they just can't admit it yet! :) Maybe that's how the series will end, a big romantic smooch between Spike and Angel.....a brotherly smooch, of course.....with some tongue action......mmmmm....Spangel.....
Maybe that's how the series will end, a big romantic smooch between Spike and Angel.....a brotherly smooch, of course.....with some tongue action......mmmmm....Spangel.....

Ha! Oh yes, a very manly, *brotherly* kiss, with a little, you know, friendly groping maybe?

Really, i had always envisioned he end sort of Casablanca-esque, except with some Sarah Maclachlan(heh) playing in the background as Spike and Angel walk off into the sunset, snarking as per usual. This is my ideal end. *happy sigh*
ok, ok, everybody has two cents in their pocket and here's mine. I remember at the end of three when Angel left feeling sad in a vague 'oh don't go...' but also this feeling 'of breeeze maybe for Buffy'.

When that happens that means the storys arc had ended. Joss knew that and bravely and wisely created this spin off. I'm sure I read somewhere he thought he had told all they could tell for B/A. The feeling I had watching is also the feeling one has at the end of a relationship.

I didn't feel at all that way about Buffy and Spike. And as some have noted--a season 8 would have been a marvelous way to detail the growth and problems of day to day in a maturing relationship. A 'return from the war' would have been a great theme. And the energy was just building for something deeper and more permanent.

Buffy did dangle a 'maybe later' to Spike at the door before she went out to get the scyth. There was a door opening that felt fresh and real.

ok whatever, as we all have said we could wax on wax off for days but it will always boil down to this for me.

When you love someone, really...then just being in their presence is like food. Really. You don't even need sex, it feeds on another level. And both couples have had that experiance at different times.

And with that knowledge.

Angel left. If Buffy had been in a wheelchair and couldn't enjoy traditional sex anymore...would he still have left?

Was it about sex? Control? Or was it the metaphor that being with Buffy might make him happy and happiness has it's own risks. Talking metaphor here about people in general. Some folks are afraid to be happy. It means risk and huge heartbreak and a burden as well. He didn't feel himself worthy to be happy and so he left. It is very hard for some people to give up the cross.

Now some may say that he left for her own good that it was unselfish when it is in fact the most selfish thing one can do. To make a decision for someone else. This personality trait plagues him to the present. (and something Cordy called him on)
And think ATS 5 is going to adress it (Could be cool to hear the conclusions drawn)


Spike stayed. He fought to stay, he fought to come back, to explore this thing called love--he walks to it and not away. Love is like a fragment that falls from heaven that you are able to see in someone and Spike wants to be there to have it all, to experience it.

To walk toward love is to say yes to god.

(look at 'Beneath You' the church scene verrry interesting text and staging) He is one of the few characters in BTVS that has referred to god. PTB aren't on BTVS.

BTVS uses love as a humbling tool, a spirit softener--remember Joss uses metaphor.

I can draw no conclusions from him staying in LA because the series hasn't offered any explation. From the seeds sown at the end of 7--I'm guessing he stays away because he feels Buffy doesn't love him. Right or wrong; pain and fear keeps him from contacting her (that and the devil capitilism of having Spike on ATS to draw viewers) which isn't the same as deliberately leaving.

And because this is the kind of man I would like held up as a good example to us all I vote:


as if anybody's counting...
A little ot but I'm a Buffy/Clem shipper. ;)
Oh I'll come clean too!


Bwah haha ahahaha. ahem sorry. I need to keep a straight face for these jokes.....
I'm a B/A shipper and I think MindPieces put it beautifully. I couldn't really say anything better than that.
Whoops. My bad. I will never, EVER discuss spoilers in a non-spoiler whedonesque thread again. Apologies to the board.

Oh, before I go--I still think the "Which vamp for BUFFY?" poll is juvenile. This isn't high school anymore. Buffy's 25, and Angel and Spike are a combined....400. Can we approach these three characters without sounding like Teen Beat?
yeah but since the universe is coming together we, at least some of us, need the fairy tale thing to work out. may not be real life, but then again, it is television. thats why i want some direction for buffy (not just maybe in the future, i hate that BS)

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