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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"Yeah, I never told anyone about this, but I--I liked your poems."
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April 09 2014

(SPOILER) Discuss this week's new Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode. The episode is titled "Turn, Turn, Turn" and was written by Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon. The plot connects to the events of Captain America: The Winter Soldier. SPOILERS for the episode and the movie are in this discussion thread.

We're told you can watch this episode without having seen the movie yet. But if you prefer to watch the movie first, ABC will repeat this episode next week at 8 pm, followed by a new episode "Providence" at 9 pm.

Member sign up is open right now. Welcome to all the new people. Don't be afraid to come say hello.
I guess this movie/tv episode crossover qualifies as a holiday, right?! :)
You could watch it without having seen the film, but it does give away one of the bigger twists.
::waves:: Hi, I'm a newbie, though I've been reading the site for a while now. I'm really happy to be here, and I look forward to discussing our Purple Overlord's universe with all you lovely people.
Have you seen the episode, alex daily? I'm especially curious what people who've seen both think.
Dang it, y'all started already. :/
Keeping you guessing!
"Keeping you guessing!"
Sunfire

Why you... :)
So, are we going to be able to talk about this episode without spilling the beans on CA:TWS? People who haven't seen the movie may have to accept that they will be getting spoilers for that during discussion. I have seen it twice, so I don't care. Just be forewarned that you enter at your own peril!

Oh, and welcome, Newbies! 😺

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 00:57 ]
Good question. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to separate spoilers for the two things in this particular case. So consider this thread the Wild West of spoilers. I'll add a note to the top of the thread.
What nebula said. Please please can some refresh me on how to hide spoilers? Sorry to be lame!
OK. Already I love it!
No need to hide them in this thread. I've added a warning. It just doesn't seem worth trying to keep it all separate in this particular case.
Niiiice touch. Blue oyster Cult.
I have it seen. It rocks. You will want to watch it again and soon. It's. That. Damn. Good.
Ok, I really don't like this guy. But...

[ edited by roddikinathome on 2014-04-09 01:08 ]
Who does Victoria work for?
OK... Does that lend credence to the prevalent theory about who the Clairvoyant is?
Big Bad reveal, or Magguffin?
I guess we know who for now, roddikinathome. Heil you-know-who!
In the comics, she worked for Norman Osborn, and ... essentially the baddies... In this version, I think it's either HYDRA, or another evildoing group. H.A.M.M.E.R.?
"Out of the Shadows Into the Light. HYDRA."

Chills.
The Evil League of Evil?
LOVE THIS. Cannot tell yet whether Hand is HYDRA or something else (Occam's Razor would suggest the former). Am side-eyeing Garrett's partner like crazy. All in all , thrilling - I have no idea where we're heading.

[ edited by javelina on 2014-04-09 02:30 ]
"The Evil League of Evil?"
Nebula1400

WORSE!
Newbie, thrilled to be able to contribute. I watched the AOS before I saw CA-TWS and though I admit to being a bit lost at the end of AOS it didn't felt any different than the stock cliffhanger ending. Having said that I'm goin to watch the repeat just so I can see it within it's greater context.

Also, CA-TWS has muscles on it's muscles. If you have not seen this flick I recommend you do so. It changes everything.
"H.A.M.M.E.R.?"
Nebula1400

Ooooooo...
And we had our 2nd big spoiler for the movie. Poor Fury.
I still think Garrett's the Clairvoyant. He's right about Hand.
::biting nails like crazy:: Ok, so we've got the timeline lined up with TWS if Fury's "dead" already. This must be what was going on while Cap was dealing with Insight, Pierce, and Winter Soldier.

It's all connected, indeed...
Director Fury. The righteous man ...
I watched the last episode three times since seeing TWS. It occurs concurrently with the movie. If you saw/see the movie, and rewatch End of the Beginning, you'll see.
"Director Fury. The righteous man ..."
javelina

Is that THE spoiler, or is Fury just underground?
:D Agent Hand!
Revisionist Agent Hand?
Hand...isn't evil? Huh, that's a switch from her comic portrayal. They weren't kidding with this whole "trust no one" business.
I wonder why she thinks Coulson is Hydra though.
@roddikinathome - where have you heard that line in connection with Samuel L. Jackson before? ... But never mind that. Holy heck on the commercial break cliffhanger.
We still have 5-1/2 more episodes. She's still not to be trusted.
@javelina: There's a Bible reference that shouts out to Pulp Fiction on Fury's headstone. Is that it?
Yeah I'm thinking that maybe she is still evil...
Well. He's a goner.
This is the worst possible time for this, Ward.
First Whedonesque post. I am giddy. But, I was one of the lucky ones that got to watch on Hulu this morning, and right now am stuck in a meeting. Watching the reactions here instead of paying attention to the meeting ... priceless. But at this point in the show this morning, was yelling at my computer screen about who to trust and who not to trust.
She's manipulating Simmons.

That took too long to post...

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 01:40 ]
@blackflamerose YES - easter egg. ... In other news I am still not trusting Hand.
@roddikinathome - where have you heard that line in connection with Samuel L. Jackson before?
javelina

No idea it was a thing, just pulled a line out of my butt!
No way. Garrett's manipulating everyone.
He's doing the same thing Hand did to Simmons. Who's playing who?
Oh, hell. Thank you, TV Tropes. I Never Said It Was Poison.
Oh poor Phil. He's gonna be even sadder when he realizes he's kept his truest friend knocked out or handcuffed this entire episode. This is just the worst day since Loki.
GAME OVER MAN! GAME OVER!
roddikinathome: Pulp Fiction...

Damn! The lag that happens in reloading this page sucks!

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 01:45 ]
Whoops. Fooled me. Things keep getting more awesome!
Sunfire I hope we're not using too much bandwidth but oh god oh god oh god. So Garrett got Coulson to shoot down good guys? Or bad guys, for better cover?
Best ep yet! ALthough I can see how you would be super confused if you missed Winter Soldier.
In other news, Ward is a complete Badass and One Man Army. 12 against 1...::whistles::
roddikinathome: Pulp Fiction...
Nebula1400

That I get, but is Fury dead, or DEAD DEAD?
I think May could do better, blackflamerose. ;)
Don't worry about bandwidth. Blogs are just a bit slower than we've gotten used to with Twitter and such.
Fitz is so terrified. :(
Has Iain de Castecker gone to the Jensen Ackles School of Manly Crying? Not even a twitch in his face.
Wait... was that thing Simon used in Serenity?
Kinda. Grant used it in an earlier episode too.
That is exactly what I thought -- how Joss, that tech is from Serenity.
I blinked. Did Agent Flirts with Simmons also Hydra? Aw, damn. He might have come on really strong yet I still liked him.
Hydra is Blue Sun. ;P
Something bad is going to happen, isn't it?
Nooooooooooooooooo!
Holy shit. I did not see that one coming.
...Well. That was a twist.
OH MY GOD THAT WAS AMAZING!
I saw that coming. Five whole minutes ago. Scream.
The minute he said he wanted to 'turn the key' it was clear Ward as hydra.
Hmm. This'll make the rest of the season REAL interesting.
Also, I totally called Ward and Garret being bad guys!
I;m not happy I was right though.
What was that?
I'm leaning towards the disembodied head of Arnim Zola being The Clairvoyant, Melinda May being compromised (brainwashed) by the same, just like Bucky Barnes in CA-TWS and Victoria Hand being The Baroness.


Well maybe not that last one.
Aaand the Tag, Ward's looking conflicted! Here's hoping for a Heel Face Turn,
Or he's a double agent. Maybe when he was being recruited he decided to go with it....?

ETA: yes I know I'm grasping.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2014-04-09 02:04 ]
OK, so I watched this ep this morning but could not watch again as it was broadcast (which made following the comments on this thread a weird sort of fun). One question: Skye gave Ward the backup disk of all the intelligence from the Bus, for safety. Does he still have it? (My jaw was on the floor so I had to go pick it up and so couldn't pay close attention.)
Agent Ward is trending. Makes me happy.

[ edited by Destructo Girl on 2014-04-09 02:08 ]
Earlier in the episode when Ward was getting beat up on the ground, he miraculously got up and was fine. Knew then and there something was fishy with him.
Gah. That look Coulson gave Ward at the end. Is Ward a triple double agent? Is Hand really dead? Will Spider Man show up? *head asplode*
@tomg: Yup, he's still got it. Which means so does HYDRA.
Oh my ffffuuuuuuuuuuu......
"Turn, Turn, Turn" is the name of the episode ... Grant is a double agent and Hand isn't dead. It was different rounds, same gun. Or that is a theory.
Ho Lee Shit. I am agog! Gog, a; am I.
I have to say, I'm glad the wife and I saw Winter Soldier Saturday! #ItsAllConnected

But Ward being Hydra? Did NOT see that coming!!!
So--saw it coming. Ever notice how Joss' shows eventually rehash old concepts? The Bus=Serenity, Simmons/Trip=Fred/Gunn, Ward=Angelus, Skye=?
@libradude: Actually, it's implied that he got hold of a nearby knife and slaughtered his way out.
I don't think Hand is necessarily dead? The camera stayed on her hand too long. ... Or else they were using that image to establish Ward's guilt / confusion.

@roddikinathome - you'll be seeing Nick Fury again on this show, I do believe. [Edited to add:] In other words, he's dead-ish.

[ edited by javelina on 2014-04-09 02:23 ]
tomg: I had forgotten all about that!!!
I have to admit I was spoiled for this episode.I didn't watch the Hulu leak earlier today but I did read the spoilers.That though did not take away from the impact of the viewing.Amazing episode tonight.I guess my Zola guess this weekend was wrong.Still Garrett being The Clairvoyant works.The only disappointment is that could limit how much longer he appears on the show(I realize the bad guy can survie the season).

The Ward reveal I think could go either way.It's possible he's a a triple agent(that look between him and Coulson at the end and the post episode tag).Although there is the fact he seemingly killed Hand.Emphasis on seemingly.Speaking of,great fake out with her.

Also I liked the touch at the end with the S.H.I.E.L.D. logo becoming a Hydra one.

I was really impressed with this episode as well as how it ran concurrent with Cap 2.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2014-04-09 02:11 ]
Well that was the fastest hour I ever spent with this show. So very glad I gave in and saw the movie first though. And the thing Fitz invented that they used to sneak out of the ship - isn't that what Fury used to escape his car?
I was reasonably certain Garrett was going to be the Clairvoyant, but Ward's turn at the end caught me completely flatfooted. Very nicely done!
Will Spider Man show up? *head asplode*
Grack21

I'm a thinkin' no, mang.
Yep, Lioness, it sure was.
I called the Ward betrayal about 5 minutes before it happened, but it almost made it more intense to watch it play out, hoping that I was wrong. And then the Hydra logo and the end - I screamed. I cannot wait to see how the rest of the season plays out!
Hi new here. Glad this is what they meant by build-up. And if Ward being HYDRA wasn't bad enough, Skye gave him all the data on the tech they've shut down before so now they've got even more tools to spread havoc!
@blackflamerose They intentionally didn't show that fight to leave it ambiguous. Yes, Ward could have fought his way out while being kicked on the ground by several men(somehow- I guess), but he also could have given them a signal that he, too, was with HYDRA. I'm inclined to think he is a Triple Agent, but I do think they didn't show that scene to draw up suspicion of him.
@blackflamerose: thanks, yeah that was the concern/observation. Maybe Skye followed standard protocol and encrypted the drive...
" *head asplode*
Grack21"

Head asplode, indeed, Grack. That ep was amazing! (btw I used to know a dude whose nickname was Grack. Am him you?)
So, I missed how May got out of the handcuffs..Did Coulson find time to do that somehow?
Lioness, I think that might be a "push the 'I believe' button" situation.
I think when Coulson put it together he probably slipped the key out and waited for the opportunity, which he got when the lights went out.
Skye is River Tam.
"Grant is a double agent and Hand isn't dead. It was different rounds, same gun. Or that is a theory."
DivaJanelle

Hand is dead 'In continuity', I think she was only a 'lamb to slaughter' character.
Missed the first half of the show because of work, but the second half was . . . wow! Glad I had seen the film last weekend. I had Garrett for the Clairvoyant, and I suspected Ward before the reveal, but I wanted to be wrong. As someone said above, this is going to make for a very interesting few episodes ahead. And I, too, thought the HYDRA symbol at the end was clever.

ETA: Forgot to say "Hi" to the newbies. Welcome!

[ edited by palehorse on 2014-04-09 02:22 ]
Also, us Whedonites should know that Skye and Ward kissing was the 'kiss of death.' Anytime a relationship is remotely close to forming in the Whedonverse, we all know what happens.
I don't know that Ward is a triple agent, but he may get conflicted down the road when he confronts the team again. I don't know how they will reconcile that deep desire to help people with him being a HYDRA agent, but we have rest of the season to figure that out. Of course the protege is on the SO's side.

Hand has to be dead. Well, not has to, but you can't keep fake killing people w/out losing credibility. I felt the ending of the episode made it look too much like SHIELD was doing well and still running, at least until the very end. And I absolutely loved the Hydra logo as the parting shot.
So glad we went to see Winter Soldier last night. This episode had enough mind-blowing moments without extra OMGs from not knowing what happened in the movie.

Ward is playing the long con. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I don't think the agents regaining control at the Hub goes against what happened in the movie though. The reason SHIELD is going to end is because of the info dump onto the web.
@CoastieofSHIELD Well, I've been Grack since 1994 or so, so maybe? I used to post on the old Buffy newsgroup a lot.

And yes I know Spider Man can't show up, that was a joke. :P

@libradude haha, as soon as they kissed I was like.."well one of this is screwed".

[ edited by Grack21 on 2014-04-09 02:24 ]
Not sure how Ward would be able to fake-kill Agent Hand right in front of Garrett, after having just dispatched the two redshirts.
I don't see how Garrett could be the Clairvoyant, if he is, who was doing the talking through Nash last week? My guess is Garrett works for the Clairvoyant, like Quinn.
"Something bad is going to happen, isn't it?"
NYPinTA

Hello, Whedon show. ;)
Also, I need a cig.

[ edited by roddikinathome on 2014-04-09 02:27 ]
Ward could be a sleeper who can be deprogrammed. Either that or he will be a continuing HYDRA player. He manipulated Skye the way Garrett manipulated the others.

Also, we still really don't know who the Clairvoyant is. There are still 5 more episodes this season. At this point, Coulson and the others can't take anything anyone says as the truth. Garrett is most likely an agent of the Clairvoyant.
I got suspicious of Ward when the showrunners said "betrayal" in recent interviews - b/c no one else makes any sense at all. And I got more suspicious when he shot whoever the hell that was that Brad Dourif was playing. And then - I saw the promo photos for next week's show. They show Garrett and Ward talking amicably. Whoops! So the moment Garrett turned it was clear - but it took me a while to catch up. There was so much going on!

WHAT a night for this show.
@Nebula1400 - Yeah, I still think the Clairvoyant is the Ghost of Toby Jones.
So is Tripp going to join forces with our team, or is he working for HYDRA? It looked to me like he was angry at Garrett, but he could also be trying to pretend to be an ally of the good guys.

Are we all sufficiently paranoid now?
So do I, javelina!

I think this episode has gotten more discussion so far, than the previous 5 episodes put together!

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 02:34 ]
"We're told you can watch this episode without having seen the movie yet. But if you prefer to watch the movie first, ABC will repeat this episode next week at 8 pm, followed by a new episode "Providence" at 9 pm."
Sunfire

Dammit, gonna miss the rundown next week. DVR it is, then.
I'm an almost-newbie in the sense that I registered a few years ago but barely ever posted. Hi people! Hi newbies!

They posted promo photos from the next episode a few days ago. I'd just read a thing saying "someone was going to be a traitor" when I saw these photos. And Ward was missing from the one picture of the whole team. It was far-fetched but didn't seem implausible. I watched the whole episode with Ward's betrayal in mind, really doubting towards the end... And then it happened. I may have screamed. I'm never right about things.

I believed in AoS from the start, but I've gotta say that this is one of the best episodes of television I've seen in a while, and I'm proud of what the show is becoming. Can it be renewed already? I'm not ready for another heartbreak.

On a side note: How adorable is Fitz?
@chrisobrien - "You can't keep fake killing people w/out losing credibility."

Normally I would agree but this is Marvel.
Ok this more about The Winter Soldier. But I'm compelled to mention how much I enjoyed the Biblical quote on Nick Fury's grave stone... The path of the righteous man... The same quote that Samuel L Jackson's character said in Pulp Fiction.
Yeah, it is Marvel. I'm sure they'll clone her or make her into a robot or oh, what else does Marvel do... alternate timelines, clones, magic chemicals, clones, deals with Satan, more damn clones...

God Marvel in the 90s and their clones.

I digress, nice to see the comments section on this episode go beserk! Can't remember this large a reaction since THAT episode of Dollhouse.
Roxanne_: Is there a link to the promo you are talking about? You are the second person to mention it that I have come across, but I haven't seen it.
#HailHydra
@palehorse: Thank you, sir! It's good to finally be here. Been waiting for open registration for about, oh, four years now. :-)

@Grack: Well, this guy was a fellow Coastie I served with on CGC Forward. He made me laugh when I really needed to. His other nickname was the "Gay Eskimo". If you're not him, it's a long story. :-D

On topic: I'm agreeing that Ward is long-gaming it. Although if he wasn't, that would make for some amazing drama.
So is Tripp going to join forces with our team, or is he working for HYDRA? It looked to me like he was angry at Garrett, but he could also be trying to pretend to be an ally of the good guys.

Are we all sufficiently paranoid now?

Nebula1400

Something about Tripp rubs me wrong (could be the acting), but I'm hoping for him being good guy after all. And a breathing guy, as well! Prolly not paranoid enough.
@CoastieofSHIELD Ha, not me. Weird coincidence though.

Heh, Twitter is going bananas.
@Nebula1400 - Next week's promo pictures were linked from here, I think. Lemme go rummage.

ETA - OK, I can't find the one that shows Ward and Garrett together. But there are some at these sites:

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/starksnewsandreviews/news/?a=97272

http://www.superherohype.com/news/297413-promo-images-for-episode-18-of-marvels-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-debut#/slide/1

[ edited by javelina on 2014-04-09 03:02 ]
Ok, so my wife isn't the only one who came up with Armin Zola as the Clairvoyant? Noice!
I truly hope Ward's not a triple agent. His betrayal was brilliant and game changing in a game that was already greatly changed by Winter Soldier. Having him be undercover would be the writers handing us something awesome and then pulling it back while saying, "psyche!"
Ok, gang...it's night night time for me. But cheers for the brainstorming session, and thanks for the open reg night, Whedonesque! I'll be posting a lot. :-)
@Nebula1400 I saw them several times, but of course, now that I'm looking for them I can't find them. It was one pic of the team all wearing coats and hats.

ETA: THIS ONE.

[ edited by Roxanne_ on 2014-04-09 03:08 ]
Well now - that was some TeeVee right there

DIDN'T see Hand being a good guy (if slightly blood thirsty good guy)

DIDN'T see Garrett being the bad guy - I should have, but damn I wanted Paxton to stick around a while

DID see Triplett being a bad guy, but happy to be wrong

KINDA/SORTA saw Ward being bad guy after Skye gave him super secret stuff. Then saw him as good guy after the hallway fracas, confirmed my good guy beliefs with slo-mo montage when Coulson breaks news, but then thought bad guy during perp walk, and then when they cut to plane exterior. My head hurts.

LOVED Fitz and his palpable hurt (last episode as well)

SHOCKED by the news that May put the team together, with one of the options being to "put Coulson down"

CHEERED at the Hydra logo at the end - nice touch

Alright - here's my list of demands the rest of the way:

No triple agent stuff. Ward stays Hydra, though has the option to pull some kind of self sacrifice thing if needed to save Skye

Triplett joins the team as a replacement

Big Bad revealed and dispatched by season's end - no cliffhanger "to be continued" crap

Skye is identified as Kree/Captain Marvel/Silver Surfer or whatever

That oughta do it :)
@TallMichaelJ - Good luck with those demands. Heh.

But hey! Here comes Patton Oswalt!
I'm hearing the "Ward is a double agent" argument, but frankly I think it has to be more complicated than that. Last week they made an opaque reference to a troubled upbringing ("the pay cable version of the Kennedys"), and clearly Ward looks to Garrett as a surrogate father.

Ward, if he's going deep-cover, still won't be redeemable as a straight "hero". This is beyond even the little lover's conversation between Skyward sending the traditional Whedon flairs of doom for their relationship. No, Ward is either being taken down as the enemy, or going down in a final redemptive act to protect Skye or something.

So Ward is either a one-season character, or else he comes back next year with a wildly different "broken soul/anti-hero" angle.

Either way, WAY more interesting for the show!
Thank you Roxanne_ and javelina!
As TWS hasn't opened to me yet, happy to report that it is possible to enjoy both episodes without watching the movie before hand. Can't wait to watch it this weekend so I can match up the timelines though.
However, full disclosure I did get spoiled about certain events fro the movie when reviews fro the Uk came out, but nothing major, mostly the fact that Hydra has infiltrated SHIELD, which in the tv show it does provide some brief explanation.
I don't know, JD825, there's still too many things hinted without payoff for Ward to be a one season character. And I honestly never saw any of Team Coulson as straight "heroes". I could, however, see the team retooling into something very Firefly-esque once everyone's loyalties are ironed out.
Also, can we talk about how heart wrenching it was to see Fitz crying and then he still stood up to Garrett? My heart!
They've got the boat - er - bus! Now they have to go around stealing to refuel it.
In case anyone is actually keeping a tally, I made the Ward is a double agent comment mostly in jest and desperation. Which I myself find funny because I never really liked Ward. (But not because I secretly thought he was evil. But I'm going to claim that from now on. ;) )

I think maybe .... dear god I really need to learn names... the Agent that worked with Garrett and kept hitting on Simmons... I think he's Ward's replacement.

I too would prefer Ward be evil but decide to have a change of heart and not be a double agent from the get go. But SHIELD is chock full of that sort of thing.

BTW, Coulson is being a bit of a jerk about May having separate orders. She was doing what he's done since being a SHIELD agent: following orders. And I'm pretty sure he's kept things from people many times. Granted though I'm giving him slack because he's been through a lot, with Fury lying to him and all that.
Yes, sad Fitz makes me sad, even though he cries so prettily!
Fitz broke my heart right there. It's Agent Triplett, NYPinTA. Antoine is his first name. I have been slow to trust him but I guess he seems ok now.

I have trouble seeing how Ward could be a triple cross since Garrett clearly expected his loyalty was a given in that last scene. Garrett's alliegance didn't seem like real news to him once Coulson's team was out of hearing. And as broken as Coulson's world has become right now I can't see him putting Ward in a position to kill what few loyal agents they have left. It was mentioned in the movie that ALL of the part of SHIELD I thought Ward was part of - Operations? - was loyal to HYDRA. I did wonder at that at the time but I just figured it meant Ward was going to be the lone holdout. Guess not. I do think he's already starting to regret it though. Or maybe, because he looked so blank at the end there, he is being controlled. I keep waiting for one of the main cast to be revealed as a technopuppet of the Clairvoyant, robot eye and all.
I totally get what you're saying, Sunfire, but I keep coming back to what Garrett said to Skye in End of the Beginning. Ward's not the man Garrett used to know, he's changed; implied to be because of Skye in a big way. It would almost be a waste of foreshadowing if he stayed evil. Triple agent? I don't know. Not as loyal to HYDRA as he used to be? Very possible.
Right, I agree. Ward has changed. I think he's going to betray HYDRA. But as of the end of this episode he's still following their orders.
Wow, that was edge-of-my-seat TV!

Also, can we talk about how heart wrenching it was to see Fitz crying and then he still stood up to Garrett? My heart!

Yes, that was so well done. Fitz is quite the badass in his own way (as is Simmons in hers).
OH MY GOD. WHAT HAPPENED. WHAAAAAAT.

Now I just want next week to come faster.
I think we all do, the ninja report! ;)
This set of gifs from skyestan's tumblr account (which I found by randomly searching tumblr) show a bit from nearly the end of the episode which went by quickly and which I, for one, missed. It could be just Coulson reassuring Ward, or it could be something else entirely.
Hi just registered here.
Ward is probably on HYDRA's side. In the promo for the next episode, he seems like enjoying his HYDRAness. Maybe we'll be hearing him saying "Hail HYDRA" anytime soon.
HOLY CRAP Coulson used that thing to take out Garrett just like Simon Tam used in Serenity to save River from those scientists. I freaked out. Edit: I just now realised Ward used it in episode 2, as well. Silly me
Also liked Coulson saying "Booyah!", Hand being good took my by surprise, the action was very well done, did not expect the May-team thing. Saw everything else coming, though.

[ edited by Boto on 2014-04-09 05:15 ]
Went to check twitter to read the cast's tweets and got a good chuckle at seeing Brett's avatar changed from his normal picture of himself to that of Hydra's logo.
Welcome new Whedonequers! I would not say Fury is deadish. Unless Europe is the afterlife.
I hope Ward is really HYDRA. It would make him more interesting. I didn't dislike him, but remember when Angel became Angelus? It's that kind of interesting.
I really hope Hand is not dead. She was badass, and I wanted to see more of her.

However .... I didn't see Ward's betrayal coming, at all. I was thinking, a few minutes before that, isn't it a little silly that Coulson's whole team is loyal, when everyone else has gone to the dark side? I like the idea that Ward is actually Hydra, because it's a whole new level of dark and twisted that I honestly didn't see coming. Can't wait to see how this plays out.
As javelina pointed out with those gifs, that look that Coulson gives Ward at the end might mean something. Something to keep an eye out for in future episodes.

[ edited by Boto on 2014-04-09 06:07 ]
I still think that much of this show has been disappointingly artless, but with this episode I feel like they've finally really put the ball in play, and I can only hope they don't drop it. And it gave me the one thing I wanted out of this episode: Ward stops being boring.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2014-04-09 06:08 ]
LOL @ The One True b!X.
Random aside that someone said on another website, was that Chris Evans on the secure line when May calls? Nice little cameo if it was.
Hi, everybody! I'm new here, but I've been reading the site for a very long time, and it's my go-to source for news and comment regarding the Whedonverse, so I appreciate everything you all do.

Anyway, to the discussion at hand (no pun intended). So I've been mostly displeased with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. since the show began, but seeing Winter Soldier really shed new light on the entire series. I re-watched all of the episodes after seeing the film, and I eagerly anticipated "Turn, Turn, Turn" as it seemed like the game-changing episode I'd been waiting for.

And it was! I'm so pleased with the way the story's progressing right now! We're seeing events from previous episodes pay off with shocking results, and the betrayals of both Garrett and Ward were handled very well. Bill Paxton is so great and likable in this role that it's painful to see him turn on everyone. I'm hoping we get to see some dramatic range in Brett Dalton's performance over the next episodes, too. I'm glad that this opens up new avenues for Ward as a character. I think he genuinely cares for Skye and the rest of the team, and this traitorous turn he's taken is going to really mess with his head.

One more thought I had regarding the Clairvoyant: I'm still holding out that it's Arnim Zola's algorithm. An AI having access to all of the team's files makes more sense than a single agent doing the same. Garrett's definitely one of the higher-up infiltrators, though.
A small detail which will make people re-watch for this. When May calls for Fury, who is on the other side telling her he's dead? Was that Steve Rogers?

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 08:20 ]
@nebula1400 We think the same.
Eh, doesn't sound like him at all. Would have been neat though.
And now a lot of the "bad writing" makes sense. Even "O-8-4" with its awkward team building. 'cause it's Ward who says the cheesy "we're stronger together" stuff.
So many thoughts about this episode.

Guess I should focus on Ward and whether he is really Hydra or not. Now I would love to see him be a proper bad guy but I can see why it may be more complex than that.

Remember the MCU is rarely about Good vs Evil, everyone is complicated. Loki was once on the side of good but let his desire for power get to him. Natasha was once working for the enemy but is now working for greater good. Nick Fury often does questionable things in the name of good. Tony Stark used to create destructive weapons. Spoilers for Cap 2

So is Ward evil? Maybe not, he may well think the ideals of Hydra for the best, he may have many reasons for doing what he has done, could his beloved brother be in danger if he doesn't comply? Could he have been brainwashed or under the control of Garrett or others?

I actually really like where the show could go with the character now, a bad guy they defeat by the season's end? Someone who is always a thorn in their side and continues to be in S2? An eventual ally? A former friend they can never trust again? Lots of possibilities and it is really exciting.
Good episode. Guess that explains why Ward has been portrayed as incompetent throughout the show. I was a little disappointed it did turn out to be him though. I thought it was a bit too obvious in this episode. I have liked Ward as a character (I didn't really find him boring, just badly written) so I'm hoping this leads somewhere good for him.

I actually kept hoping it would turn out to be Simmons who was evil. 'Cause seriously, I need to see Evil!Simmons. I kept praying for her to plunge that blade in Agent Creepy Flirt.
I was expecting her to be Hydra when Tripplet said she was bad at lying, and then she looked ominous while saying "I know, but I'm getting better at it".
The One True b!X, you're so right. He finally got a personality!

As for who answered the phone when May called Fury's office, I guess it would have been a security team or someone in charge of closing Fury's files and ensuring that he didn't do anything shady or give information on Hydra to other agents.

Except...if he knew something was going on in SHIELD, why would he have May call his office? Wouldn't he have given the number to someone before and told them what to do? It didn't sound like anyone we knew about so I don't think it was actually an easter egg for fans. It would have been cool to have the person on the other end be Barton, though. He would have been one of Fury's trusted agents.

Since Hand says Captain America took out the helicarriers (and we saw the footage behind her), we're to assume that it's been at least 3 days days since Fury "died" (my estimates put the entire movie taking place over the course of 5-6 days) and it makes sense someone would be answering his phone. It does not at all make sense that Captain America himself would answer the phone. He was pretty busy before, during, and after and he was designated an enemy of SHIELD. What is he doing, just sitting in Fury's office? Nope.

Now that SHIELD is gone, Ward is Hydra, and Captain America is off to look for Bucky, I think it'd be safe to think that the next season will be integral to setting up Age of Ultron. After all, there has to be some way to explain how this ragtag group gets back together and without any of SHIELD's toys. Maybe Stark Industries makes Barton's arrows now that SHIELD doesn't exist to do it.

[ edited by the ninja report on 2014-04-09 13:46 ]
First off, I loved the episode...

Didn't really see Ward being HYDRA and I have my doubts that he actually is. Most likely, this is the "long con", or, he's being controlled by an implanted eye-bomb.

Sucks if Hand really is dead. This episode was her BEST performance by far and she actually became mildly likable and interesting.

Anyway, looking forward to re-watching it again tonight.

P.S.
Agent Triplett is already dead, his character was killed by absolutely horrible acting. Seriously, this guy is the worst. PLEASE make him go away.
Is Hand really dead? There's speculation he hit her with an ICER first and then put a few non lethal shots in her back to cover it up. And her hand may have been moving it the tag.
So, wow. I actually made a few predictions before I watched this epiosde, which were - Agent Hand is on the good side but has been fed intel saying that Coulson is HYDRA ; Ward turns out to be HYDRA, which I meant AS A JOKE, May is a goodie, and Skye and Simmons finally make out.

I was shocked at Wards betrayal, and slightly devastated that he shot Agent Hand - I was hoping for a lot more time spent with her. Although it was nice to be right. (Well, mostly. Sadly lacking in Skimmons!)

I can't wait to see where they go from here. If Ward is truly HYDRA, I foresee an eventual redemption story. His feelings for Skye will cause conflict for him at some point, if it isn't already.
Re: the phone May called. I don't think "encrypted line" necessarily means his office. It could be a phone he carries on him at all times. Or carried.
I think Garrett would know the difference between an ICER and a real bullet.
"and Skye and Simmons finally make out."

LOL!

But Ward's feelings for Skye could also be manipulation. I have to watch the episode again, but didn't Hand say something about how HYDRA moles make people like them, and that's how they gain their trust?
Blanks look and sound exactly like real bullets. A blood squib can also be convincing.

Still, it's more that I *want* to believe that Ward is a triple agent than anything else. We'll see by the end of the season.
As for the encrypted phone
"But Ward's feelings for Skye could also be manipulation."

True, and I'll be going with Agent Weavers advice - Don't trust anyone!
@shapenew - Fury is dead-ish in the sense that he has disappeared himself.

May's secure line! Why, oh why couldn't Cobie Smulders have recorded just that bit of dialogue? Except Maria Hill is also awfully busy at this point in the film, just as busy as Cap.

It would be nice to have the team visit Fury's kick-ass gravestone ...
@Nebula1400 - Yes, Hand did make that comment about the HYDRA moles being "likeable." And Jed and Mo specifically tick off some the steps Ward took to make himself a trusted friend in one of the interviews linked from the home page this morning.
Nebula1400, I thought "maybe" but it just seems to me that Cap is a little busy to answer phone calls and it would be weird of Fury to ask him to do that. He could have asked Sam or Natasha, but Cap? Eh.
Okay. So Brett Dalton, in an interview at marvel.com that I can't link because I am on my phone, says Garrett IS the Clairvoyant. This comes straight from the writers who presumably would know.
When Skye was decoding the transmission, I was really hoping we'd hear Cap's speech about the Hydra infiltration and see their reaction to it. The timing may not have worked out but it would have tied the two together beautifully.

However, since that was my only disappointment, nice job people. BRING ME THE NEXT EPISODE!
I was hoping we'd hear that too! I noticed in the movie that there were a bunch of little shots of Alexander Pierce holding his phone, and while he obviously uses it to trigger the biometric collar bombs, now it does double duty as you could easily think he was also sending that message to his Hail Hydra Newsletter mailing list.
I'd been suspicious of the Ward character and never bought his reason for shooting the faux-Clairvoyant. Interesting turn for the character. He does seem to have some doubt in his eyes, though. If Ward is suddenly pure chaotic evil that will be boring. I like the triple agent theory.

Hopefully Garrett will become more nuanced as well. Pure opportunism as motivation can also become boring.

I predict Agent Triplett will join Coulson's crew.

Deathlok will probably come and go as needed (I hope they improve his cheesy costuming... maybe use some CGI? Use the comic book Deathlok as a template! Or the cover of Iron Maiden's Somewhere In Time album). There are fascinating Robocop-esque places to go with Deathlok but the look of the character needs a bit of work.

Patton Oswalt will become M.O.D.O.K. Okay, not serious on that one but a Marvel nerd can dream, right?
I'm still not convinced that Ward can be a double- or triple-agent on the 'good' side of things. We've already had the discussions about collateral damage (two guards dead at the TAHITI location), plus Ward cold-bloodedly shooting Thomas Nash last week. If he's evil/Hydra then he could feign remorse and claim that he was doing it to protect Skye and maintain her trust to whatever nefarious ends.

But in order for him to be good but feigning evil, then he has to have participated in killing the two guards, Nash, and then two more guards plus Agent Hand, all as part of his cover. And since he likely still has the backup disk from the Bus and (I predict) will be handing it over to Hydra in an upcoming episode... that's just a whole lot of evil to be faking, and a whole lot of risk at a time when the good guys are seriously vulnerable. (Maybe the disk is boobytrapped in some way, but that would imply that Skye or someone else had suspicions early on.)

I'm not going to say it's an impossibility, but that really is straining credulity.
I am so glad I saw Captain America before this episode! This was quite a ride with highlights for me of Fitz point out the Icer splat and saying "Were you under orders to shoot me?", Triplett pulling the knife out and handing it to Simmons, Phil and Melinda's Moment (need to rewatch it), Hand's "Test", Garrett's reveal, and Ward's reveal.

I'm confused by why Coulson trusted Ward so easily and by their little nod. I'd bet that Triplett is going to replace Ward on the team, at least for a few of the remaining episodes this season.

I think that Ward's feelings for Skye are real, especially given Ward and Garrett's little exchange vis--vis "Is there anything on this plane you need to save?" I think it would be quite trite for Skye's love to be the source of a Heel Face Turn, but I trust J-Mo.

And Sunfire, in regards to last week's "threat" - OMG that Fitzsimmons reunion hug was sooooo perfect!!!! Simmons' braving Triplett, and Hand, and then Fitz' manly tear needed a nice hug to cap it off.
Forgive me, but could somebody explain to me what a triple agent is? Thank you.
A triple agent is when a double agent is actually working for the first organization it "flipped" on.

If Ward was a triple agent, he'd be a SHIELD agent secretly working for HYDRA but was actually, unbeknownst to HYDRA, secretly still working for SHIELD to expose HYDRA.

Essentially, if he was a triple agent, SHIELD would have sent him to be a HYDRA agent while knowing he was loyal to SHIELD. But HYDRA wouldn't know this and would think he was loyal to HYDRA.

If Ward was only a SHIELD agent secretly working for HYDRA he'd be a double agent. But because he's working for HYDRA and secretly still on SHIELD's side, he's a triple agent.

I've edited myself a few times trying to be clearer. I hope it's clear. I have some diagrams I can upload if I'm not :)

[ edited by the ninja report on 2014-04-09 16:08 ]
@Jason_M_Bryant. Whilst blanks sound the same, automatic weapons don't work (i.e. repeat fire) with them, as they work by gas from the round being diverted within the weapon to chamber the next round, with blanks there's nothing to do that (no bullet to force the gas into the recoil mechanism) so all the gas is expended out of the end of the barrel. Only way to do it is with regular weapons you have an attachment on the end of the barrel to do the same job as the bullet would. Movie (automatic) guns have 3/4 of the barrel blanked off internally to achieve the same effect. Either way you can't switch between live rounds and blank with automatic weapons without having to rechamber manually after every round fired (Die Hard 2 fails most spectacularly at this). Unless of course he was using a revolver (I haven't seen the episode yet).

@Hjemsted, yay with the "Somewhere in Time" love.
Thank you the ninja report. I appreciate the efforts :-) I understand.
Me, I think Ward is Hydra but a conflicted Hydra, borne from Skye and from his experiences with Coulson and crew, and a big part of the show going forward will be this conflict so we (and possibly he) are never really sure which way he'll flip at any moment.

I told a friend yesterday I hoped he was Hydra because it would finally make him interesting. It might work!

I wonder if AoS will see a surge in ratings for previous episodes from all the fans reviewing to look for clues, now.
Jack, I get what you're saying, but it's a TV show. I don't expect that level of realism.

If they can invent a stun gun, I'll accept that they also invented some extra-good blanks.
Let me say this: If they go all Triple Agent/Fake Death I'm out. I've enjoyed the show, it certainly has gotten better, and at some point I may enjoy watching the first season to catch the Ward clues along the way. But .....

If they backtrack on the bad ass nature of the ending I'll be done, because it'll demonstrate their unwillingness to "go there" We'll know their boundaries.

BTW - Simmons is HYDRA. ONE - the foreshadowed "I'm getting better at it" lying retort. TWO - her compulsive interest in uncovering Skye secrets ... all the better for Hydra to know THREE - she, being Hydra, would have known Hand wasn't and called her bluff during standoff scene. The writers have the stones to do that and I'll buy them dinner
On the other hand, maybe she doesn't trust Triplett and that's why she's lying. And it's not clear that she would know that Hand wasn't Hydra. In The Winter Soldier, Cap is very clear that people you work alongside might be part of Hydra and you wouldn't know it. It's not like all the secret Hydra agents sit at a special table in the cafeteria.
But what would "I'm getting better at it" mean if she's not Hydra? Did I miss something?
Simmons was still trying to hide the fact she was learning more about Skye's blood. Coulson told her not to bother investigating it, but she is persisting... but for the betterment of humanity or Hydra remains to be seen!
I think Ward was Hydra to the core, until he started building all of these attachments with Coulson's team. Now, I think he's conflicted. Garrett's a father-figure to him, so he'd do whatever it took to save him, but I don't think he wants to be Team Coulson's enemy. I think they all mean a lot to him...

I'll be disappointed if he was a triple agent all along.
What if there's a Triplett agent?
I just wanted to share a little unimportant theory. The joke has been made on screen a couple of times that whoever named our Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division REALLY wanted the initials to spell SHIELD... I think it was an intentional nod to Cap proposed by Peggy & Stark.
Ooooooh, QingTing, I like that.
I think Garrett would know the difference between an ICER and a real bullet.
Also he would know how to check if a body is really dead.
Simon actually went there.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about this episode, and whether Ward is a triple agent.

My thought stems from how shaken up Ward was by killing "an innocent man". This could be acting, but it seemed genuine. I noticed that he was in the shadows while saying that line, which seems to be a cinematographic nod to the fact that he did not want to kill an innocent man and felt bad about it.

Meanwhile, at the end of the episode, he kills two (possibly three) more people. Again, he seems shaken up by it. Somehow, I doubt that he would volunteer (or accept orders from Coulson) to kill more innocent people, which indicates that A., he was forced to kill the two guards (due to being brainwashed/blackmail/eyecam/whatever), or B., he didn't believe they were innocent. I do like the idea that he was brainwashed (sleeper agent a la November, perhaps?), but I can't figure out a point when he was "activated", so I'm scratching that.

I know some people think he is going undercover to protect Skye, but that strikes me as a poor move--after all, wouldn't the best way to protect her be protecting her himself? I don't think it was out of protection.

I think it is more likely that he has gone rogue against SHIELD and HYDRA. His faith in SHIELD was taken away when he saw how heavily they had been infiltrated by HYDRA and Garrett, but he is also against the idea of HYDRA. He's definitely the sort to just do his own thing and only trust himself, and right now, I think that is what he is doing--playing his own game.
How did I not see that pun before now.
The two guards who were killed in T.A.H.I.T.I. (I wonder what that's an acronym for) were killed by Garrett (and possibly Ward). Garrett and Ward being in league with H.Y.D.R.A. kind of lends credence to a lot of us having problems with their deaths.

I wish I could access all of this season now.
@Nebula1400 - wow, great catch. Provided they don't ruin the season (for me) by having Ward turn out to be a "good guy" I'll be sure to pick up the Season 1 DVD and re-watch those early episodes with fresh eyes
Another problem for me with the triple agent theory, is that it would SHIELD was aware that Hydra was infiltrating them, so someone (presumedly Fury) asked Ward to pretend to join Hydra to spy on them on the inside. Even Fury was surprised by the existence of Hydra in their ranks. Clearly there is a lot that we don't know, since his turn occurred at the very end of the episode, and as we saw from that episode, nothing is black and white (we were led to believe Hand was Hydra, then they reversed it, Garrtett's reveal, Hand having good reason to thing Coulson was Hydra). I think Ward does have feelings for Skye, and that may play with his training. After next week, we will get more information and background on where Ward is. Until then, it is fun to chase all the different theories.
Ward probably tipped off Cybertek that they were on the train in T.R.A.C.K.S. If is not the Clairvoyant, and I still don't think it was Garrett, Ward would have been able to, with the help of another mole, keep HYDRA on abreast of their plans. I think that Ward's love interest is not May or Skye, but Simmons (who is his accomplice).

Also, re: Victoria Hand, those of you who have seen CATWS, think about it.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 22:30 ]
I never usually see twists coming, but I knew Garrett was the bad guy when he said his "turn, turn, turn" speech in the previous episode. Also I guessed what Ward was going to do when he asked to go along with Garrett. Not that it mattered, still the best and most exciting episode so far. This episode completes the transformation into a much darker show with real stakes. I'm much more excited about the rest of the season now, and the show in general. It's unfortunate that the Hydra storyline couldn't be foreshadowed earlier on, as it would have made the season more coherent as a whole piece.

Loving the casting as well, we've got a better big bad now and more great guest actors coming up.

[ edited by Toivo on 2014-04-09 22:08 ]
I believe it has been confirmed by crew/cast in linked interviews on the front page that Garret is the Clairvoyant.
OK, so as of now, the story is it's Garrett. Still doesn't preclude the rest of the theory.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2014-04-09 22:46 ]
Any chance that Fury really died and the "alien drug" was used on him too?

And congratulations to the team, great episode!
No, I don't think so, kornundsprite. Marvel is pretty clear that the show moves as the movies do and not the other way around. I don't think they would reference something that originated in the TV show.
There is a part of me that says (and this is part criticism, part hope) that Ward seems yet another example of Whedon & Co. having a really, REALLY, REALLY, either terrible ability or disinterest in working with the good looking, heroic, non-chaotic male archetype. Angel (Bangel and Spuffy debates aside) seems to resonate less than most characters on his own show for most people, Ballard is a character people still don't get, and Ward they had to make Hydra to make anyone interested in him.

Just please stop making this character. I think people are praising this move because it at least makes him interesting, but I just question why it takes this to make him interesting. It's not really subversion any more when the Whedonverse itself already has two examples prior, and Prince Hans was in a Disney movie last year.

For this show I'm fine with it... it is what it is. But the saturation that's going on with this particular archetype (in genre) is starting to verge on boring.
I don't understand. Your criticism is that they can't stay away from flawed male characters? I think the issue is that all characters have flaws. Whether they're of the evil kind is a different matter. Is it that they tend to turn out to be not so good guys or that they seem troubled in general?
Great stuff again, although me & my crew were not greatly surprised by the twists and were actually hoping for less likely characters to turn out to be traitors. May reporting to Fury seemed like the most likely thing to us, we always thought Garrett was shady and my suspicions about him and Ward were all but confirmed when Ward was released from the holding cell and Garrett made a point out of telling him that Hand was the Clairvoyant (that really came across like: 'This is what Coulson thinks and it's the story we're going with now!'). We didn't think Garrett would turn out to be the Clairvoyant himself, wonder in how far that's confirmed now or if he'll turn out to be answering to someone else (I'm hoping for that).
It would been far more surprising-have messed with all of our minds much, much more if May had really been Hydra or otherwise opposed to Coulson, or if Skye was really the Clairvoyant and had cleverly manipulated everything including her own shooting and reviving all along, or if both Fitz and Simmons were Hydra.

Hand seemed a bit too easy in giving kill-orders. One thing I especially liked was how other characters were shown really responding to the dire circumstances, like Fitz crying, the one guard telling Hand that he wasn't eager to shoot Coulson and co., and also Ward's look in the final scene - he didn't seem to find any joy in what he was doing.
Not that I'm saying that Garret is not the Clairvoyant, but I would take the confirmation with a large grain of salt. The writing crew would want to preserve any future surprises.
Oh! Guys, guys...the plane Garrett and Ward are on is on it's way to the Fridge, right?

Who are they gonna let out first?

I can't believe this didn't occur to me sooner! (Apologies if it has been mentioned somewhere in the many, many comments above.)

edit: Just watched the previews for next weeks episode, and of course Raina is first - duh.

[ edited by katsadako on 2014-04-10 00:18 ]
@the ninja Flaws are fine. Buffy has flaws. I like versions of Angel. I like Ballard. But these are not characters that are written to be very interesting. That's not really my opinion, that's sort of the aggregate concensus relating to them as "good guys." They don't just have flaws... they are flawed.

I think the problem is, Whedon & Co. like to write these introverted characters as fundamentally superficial in any sense of introspection and thus somewhat humorless (although Angel escaped this eventually and Ballard was allowed to be dry in season 2). Most highly introverted people I've met (and it's been quite a few) tend to have a very specific and often very developed sense of humor. They often don't react to social jokes quickly, but they deliver wit quite well. They react like what I would expect an extrovert that doesn't deal with introverts would think an introvert is like.

So yes, there is a part of me that finds the recurrent theme of introversion becoming evil (because that's interesting) somewhat problematic. It's just a very vivid pattern because Whedon seems to keep tying it specifically to good looking male leads that are potential love interest to a main character that happens to be a woman.

Simon Tam may be Whedon's best exception to this, but he is still often an extremely one note character that is alternately consumed by his protection for River and an object for Kaylee's affection.

[ edited by azzers on 2014-04-10 00:34 ]
Good point, katsadako!

Upon watching the last several episodes again, I think Skye is Kree. I'm thinking Simmons may be, too. And someone in there is Captain Marvel.

The key scenes regarding this are in "Yes Men."
Not having any background/clue re: The Marvel Universe, I wondered from the start why the series was called AOS instead of SHIELD. Maybe now we know?
No Brett, it's called AOS instead of just SHIELD to limit confusion with the Television show The Shield, in fact for a long time before it came out it was just called SHIELD. This is similar to how in the UK and Ireland Avengers was called Avengers Assemble since the spy show/movie/whatever else was part of it is way more wildly remembered there and they might be confused.

Nebula1400 I may be misreading what you said, but are you suggesting that Skye or Simmons might end up being Captain Marvel?
That's what I am suggesting, Judedeath, but I think it would be Skye, since she is the 0-8-4. While Captain Mar-Vell was male, he was Kree. Half the Captain Marvel characters, however, have been female. If she isn't Mar-Vell, she may be his child. Cue intro to more about his battles with Thanos. So many tie-ins to upcoming Marvel movies if she exists anywhere in this realm.
Nebula1400: interesting thought. From before the show started and we got the info on the crew, I was always hoping for either Fitz or Ward to reveal themselves as Mar-Vell at some point. I guess it could still be Fitz. But I never thought about the possibility that they might go with a female Cap Marvel first!

Although I'm still hoping that Skye is a take on the comic book character Mantis.

One piece of unresolved plot and potentially very important clue still is the alien writing Ward discovered on assignment in 'the Hub', which always had me wondering whether everything's ultimately connected to the Kree/Supreme Intelligence.

katsadako: one of my friends also pointed out that Ward and Garrett still seemed to be on course to the prison, about to let out whoever they want. Was this 'Fridge' the same place referred to earlier by Coulson as the holding cell for the Abomination..? Well, it's not likely that they'd be able to pull of those special effects, or get Tim Roth in, but in any case it's a scary thought that Garrett may be on his way to assemble some kind of Masters of Evil crew...
I rewatched the last two episodes. I don't think Ward is a triple agent. I think he's all Hydra.
I'm doubling down on my stance that there's no way Kevin Feige is going to let Agents of SHIELD develop a character that is meant for the films. I think the logic behind the Kree tie-in is sound, particularly because of Guardians of the Galaxy (Star Lord gets his helmet from the Kree). But I highly doubt that Skye or Simmons is Captain Marvel because Marvel Studios probably gave the showrunners a huge list of characters they can't use because movies are in development.
Loved Fitz so much. I'd also be happiest of Ward was really Hydra, but conflicted about it.

I'm also wondering... could that possibly have been an LMD of Hand? Like, Coulson setting up a test of Ward's loyalties?
I'm sure you're right, ninja report. Jed and Maurissa have talked about exactly that kind of list. Feige has confirmed that they're considering a Captain Marvel movie. That's not at all the same thing as saying that they'll do one, but it is definitely enough to get her put on the "hands off" list.

I can definitely see Kree being in the show, but only hints of them. In fact, we've already had a hint when Sif listed them as one of the many blue races she's encountered. I doubt we'll see much more than that. Named Kree characters might steal a little of Captain Marvel's thunder, which would be a pun if we were talking about the DC Captain Marvel. :)
Something else about this episode:
There was this really cool moment when Coulson saved Garrett by shooting down the S.H.I.E.L.D. planes who were attacking him ("Boo-yah!!!" - we all cheered along with him!).
But... those planes had been sent out by Hand, who was apparently as rightly convinced of the need to take down Garrett as she was wrongly convinced of Coulson being HYDRA.
Meaning that with all the talk of Ward shooting the wrong guy, that's exactly what Coulson did when he shot down those fighter jets.
In hindsight, that adds some extra drama to the events. Or were those planes unmanned?
@Valentijn - I believe Garrett referred to them as drones
TMJ - now that you mention it, I believe he did, indeed.
Well, then it's not as dramatic as I thought. But the Boo-yah!-moment was really cool in any case!
I'm also wondering... could that possibly have been an LMD of Hand? Like, Coulson setting up a test of Ward's loyalties?

swanjun



I suggested this in another thread and was shot down. I still think it's a perfect way to introduce LMD's and keep Hand alive. On the other Hand, she may just be mostly dead, which means she's partly alive, and will be healed and reprogrammed to be a HYDRA spy.

As for Captain Marvel, or Ms. Marvel, maybe she won't have that name, but someone will refer to her as one of these in passing.
Yep, Garrett was attacked by UAVs, which are unmanned but piloted by people on the ground. So Hand sent them believing Coulson and Garrett were Hydra.
Nebula, maybe I'm wrong but I don't see Marvel making a Non-Carol Danvers Part-Kree Captain Marvel unless it's Mar-Vell or someone. This is just from looking at how Marvel has been treating Carol recently, they really have been pushing her, in the past 2 years or so she's been given the Captain Marvel name(changed from the Ms. Marvel name she's had since the 70's), a new Costume(and possibly a haircut depending on who's drawing her :P), two series, showing up in most of the Avengers books, to the point where one of the series is just a back and forth crossover with her own for 4 issues and she's set to start appearing in Guardians of the Galaxy next month(they showed up in her series this month). That's not counting Ms. Marvel who is inspired to become a hero because of her.
This thread got really long really fast and I've only had chance to scan most of it so this may have been covered but making Ward a triple agent at this point would suggest that there was any awareness at all that HYDRA still existed in the first place. Cap 2 made it clear that Fury had no clue and so I doubt anyone else did either, and if they did, just making one man a triple agent in the hope that he'll end up in a position to make a difference seems like a piss poor way of hoping to deal with the situation.

Now, I'm not saying that Ward might not defect back to Coulson's team for his own reasons, but right now he's HYDRA.
azzers, I believe that just makes them comic relief. When you turn someone evil, it makes them a catalyst and a driving force for story. If you want him to be witty, he'll just stay on the sidelines. I believe those types of characters are fine for certain shows - comedies moreso, and are very evident in Mike Judge content - but not great for action-driven television. It's the nature of a supporting role. However, as a protagonist? Coulson is very much what you are describing. He's been at a loss a little bit this year, 'cos of his resurrection, but in the films and one-shots, Coulson is absolutely the a wry guy, but one with a driving force behind him. I hope this HYDRA stuff will continue to turn him into more a character and give him his personality back a bit.
I rewatched last night, and noticed something in the tag scene: the blood oozing down Agent Hand's hand. Artistic license, or an indicator that her heart's still beating? (Active blood flow from a wound implies blood pressure, if I recall correctly.) It could instead be fake blood still oozing, of course, but that also implies not dead.
Re: blood oozing. Couldn't it just be gravity, too?
Actually, I think @KieraJenG might be on to something. I had that as a passing thought when I first saw the episode. I rejected it at the time and thought it was just symbolic, because there was no reason that he would miss a torso or head shot at that close range. That is, why would there be blood dripping down her hand? But if she moved and her heart were still beating . . . maybe?
There is the possibility that Ward isn't HYDRA at all. At least not as far as being loyal to them goes. Garrett might well have brought him in a long time ago but maybe Ward never actually drank the HYDRA Kool-Aid.

He's displayed the ability to do whatever it takes to complete a mission before now. That's basically how he was trained. Shooting Hand and the other agents might have seemed to him like an acceptable loss if it meant gaining entry to HYDRA at a senior level. What better way to do that than by proving to Garrett that he was still loyal. I know it's been claimed by the writers that Ward was always HYDRA but who's to say that he wasn't always planning on destroying them from the inside. Up until now he would have had no idea who to trust and so would have been forced to keep it to himself. After recent events he would be aware of who was really loyal to S.H.I.E.L.D. and so could change plans accordingly. Maybe Hand was even in on the plan to let Garrett escape and get Ward inside the belly of the beast. I get a feeling we'll know for sure before the season ends.
My theory is Ward is a total psychopath. That last shot of him, he is looking down at Agent Hand, in the last second his eyes shift up and stare directly into the camera. there is no conflict in that stare. I've ruled out triple agent, forget the morality of what he did to Hand (she's dead, those last two shots would have been head shots) and her to agents. He's handing the keys to the icebox to Garrett, worst play strategically speaking. If he were a triple agent, to prevent Hand from executing Garrett on the plane, he would have shot Garrett in the leg and said death is to good for him, he needs to suffer first. Then broken him out later. In the episode "The Well", we see Grant's memory. The oldest boy is a dead ringer for a young Ward. I think he, the bully, is the man we know as Grant. My theory is that the youngest brother drowned and at some point the oldest took the identity of his middle brother. My guess is that Garrett or Sitwell found "Grant", saw his potential and recruited him into Shield/Hydra. Hopefully Coulson will figure this out (if he's smart, he is pouring over all of his teams files right now looking for links to known Hydra agents.) before Ward can do any more harm to team Coulson. I am a bit surprised that Coulson let him go with Hand, because I think Coulson may suspect Ward is still loyal to Garrett. Coulson might have felt that was the easiest way to remove a possible threat to his team with no actual proof.
The remaining episodes are going to be quite the roller coaster ride.
Valentijn : Yes, the HYDRA Evil League of Evil!

Of course, I guess they'd have to stick to whoever has been put in the Fridge in the show - Graviton, Blizzard...could be leading to some major mayhem in the season finale.
katsadako - Wasn't Blizzard in the Sandbox, though? That episode ended with Donnie being sent to the Sandbox--his preferred posting, but not in the way he'd hoped--so they could keep an eye on him in case he goes all mad scientist.

palehorse, I doubt Ward could have missed at point-blank range; if Hand is alive, he knows and intended it. And doesn't want Garrett to know, or he wouldn't have fired those two shots--there's no one else (besides us) watching who needs to be misled. Is it possible that Ward could've fired the shots into the floor or something and made it look from Garrett's vantage point like he shot her? (ETA: I know nothing about guns and shooting things, so it's quite possible that that's a ridiculous suggestion, but. . .)

[ edited by KieraJenG on 2014-04-11 15:02 ]
Agreed with andOtherDreams. It's amazing to me how much people will superimpose upon blankness -- the abyss can be hard to bear -- but there is NOTHING in that final stare. The lack of happiness does not equate unhappiness. Mental Ward is a pure psychopath. He isn't happy about what he's done because he cannot feel happiness. He is not a triple agent -- it would imply SHIELD knew about HYDRA which they did not. He did not take his own initiative -- The Clairvoyant was not surprised by Ward's turn, he did not switch guns, and he's killed at least four people in service of The Clairvoyant.

People reaaaallly want Ward to turn back solely because he's finally become interesting and we don't want him to die. It's a good sign if you're one of the writers, but he has to stay bad.

The only possibility is Ward has been brainwashed like Winter Soldier. It would be set up not only by that film, but foreshadowed by Grant being taken by Lorelei. But I don't think that's true, either. If Lorelei could see that Grant was interested in Skye, she would also have seen his prior brainwashing. On the other hand, she might not tell them about his Hydra affiliation when they get him back, because eff them.

I think Triplett is Ward's replacement on the team and serves to add more diversity to the show. Ward is evil but may make a last minute turn for Skye -- but I actually think he won't, and hope he is who he was in those last seconds, an empty, cold murderer. This has all been an act.

I'm also worried about Simmons being an agent as well. Not just the "I'm getting better at it," line, but also the fact that she neither swears allegiance nor denies it during the test by Hand. She lets Triplett do all the work, and if she were HYDRA then she could've possibly known it was a test anyway (though that doesn't say much about Hand).

[ edited by PuppetDoug on 2014-04-11 21:51 ]
I'm also worried about Simmons being an agent as well. Not just the "I'm getting better at it," line, but also the fact that she neither swears allegiance nor denies it during the test by Hand. She lets Triplett do all the work, and if she were HYDRA then she could've possibly known it was a test anyway (though that doesn't say much about Hand).


Holy poop! Not my Simmons! Shut your face, PuppetDoug! Is it Tuesday yet?
Between the interviews and the "Providence" opening scene, Ward seems pretty definitely bad. Which I like. Let's see some Evil Ward.

Valantha, I also really enjoyed the FitzSimmons reunion. There are so many badasses on this show and it's nice to see the scientists freak out and then feel relieved when the shooting's over.
KieraJenG : D'oh! You're right, Blizzard is in the Sandbox.

I'm slightly worried about Simmons being HYDRA as well but I don't want to believe it because she's adorable, and it would make me sad!
PuppetDoug: While I did write in one earlier comment that Ward didn't seem to find any joy in what he was doing, I'm leaning to agree with everything you're saying. I should elaborate that the lack of joy can mean two different things: either Ward's not happy with the path that he chose in the past anymore, due to unforseen affections for people like Skye (I'm hoping this isn't true and he's been lying all the time in order to gain her trust), OR he's such a psychopath that all kills are completely meaningless to him other than serving his goals.

And yes, I picked up on the same Simmons=evil hints and kept being suspicious of her as well - but, with Simmons there's a problem that she and Fitz seem to go WAY back and have been like brother and sister at least since the academy. Which may make different allegiances between the two hard to work. I kept thinking that if Simmons would turn out to be HYDRA, than so would Fitz, and while I could see that happening a week ago, I can't see that so much anymore since the last episode.

Or might it be that Coulson's entire crew has been made up of people with different agendas all along?
Re Cap 2

And is Simmons the real traitor? She didn't pass the test. She didn't get the chance.
Simon, In a way Simmons did pass, she tossed the knife back to Triplett. It doesn't mean she couldn't be a traitor, but she did side with Triplett when he made his play. If Simmons did upload Skye's blood tests to a Shield server, that could be a future problem traitor or not (and may make Coulson and team think she is a traitor). Either for the TAHITIAN treatment or for her 084-ness, If someone knew what to look for they might see it in her test results.
On your first point, probably no real details were involved. Might be how a certain Portlandian finds out.

ETA: I'm thinking Fury brought Coulson back and assigned him the Bus and team as part of Fury's preparations when he knew something in SHIELD was not right (like Fury did when he set up his secret base).
Would make sense to have a trusted ally working outside normal operations. Also why Fury would allow Skye, an unknown outsider, to stay on the Bus despite the risk. On the upside, with Fury dead, they can now get a fish tank ;)

[ edited by andOtherDreams on 2014-04-13 01:30 ]
"Turn, Turn, Turn" was so fucking awesome!! The fight scenes were so intense!! So well directed. Meticulously, really. And it went by so fast.

Jed and Maurissa did such a great job at writing this one. I can't wait to see what happens next. Now that every table has turned and something new has been spawned. And I am so excited for Amy Acker to appear!! Love her!! And Patton Oswalt!!

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