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March 17 2004

A demon named Lorne. According to this Australian article, our favourite green demon is "the single most intriguing gay character on television right now".

Hmmm...I'm not even sure what to think of that article. It was just kind of weird. I usually don't think of Lorne as "undeniably queer", but to each his own I suppose. At least we can all agree that Lorne kicks ass.
Lorne clearly (to me, at least) is meant to be at least partly a gay archetype...the clothes, the drinks, the show music fixation, the affected nicknames for everyone...but that's not to say he's gay per se...

He certainly one of the most intriguing characters on TV, regardless of his sexuality. We're watching no TV during Lent (which allows for Sundays to be not TV-less) and caught "The House Always Wins" with my son last Sunday...just too damned good!
I think Lorne has always come off as gay, but not as if he's overtly hitting on anyone so it leaves it a little mysterious. Honestly, it doesn't matter, cause Lorne is so damn cool.
The thing I love about Lorne is his nonclassification sexually. I dunno, I view him as more of a hollywood agent that just has pet names for everyone because it's fun.

I forever praise Joss on his non-commitment sexually ambiguous characters, like Lorne and Andrew. However much I think he confused up retroWillow and gayWillow.
I would definitely watch a spinoff of Lorne and Andrew together.
Yes! I would also watch a spinoff of Lorne and Andrew together, whether "together" or just together. I especially love Lorne. Loooooooooooove Lorne. He was great the moment he first appeared in season two and has been great ever since. In AtS, is Lorne gay, straight, in-between.....I'm not sure. To me, he has elements to his behavior that could be identified as stereotypically "gay." And, hello, Lorne having to escape his provincial dimension for not accepting him, and then being green and different in L.A. and singing songs like "It's Not Easy Being Green" because he suffers from anti-demon discrimination from time to time his new home dimension.....a metaphor for how difficult it can be to be gay in many societies? I'd say, likely.

But it has never been 100% decided (onscreen) and I like the ambiguity. I don't really want to see Lorne being sexual one way or another on AtS, to tell the truth. I'm not sure why -- it most definitely is not homophobia, not one whit. I'd cheer if any of the other characters were gay. And I'd be tickled if Andrew finally came out. But I like Lorne at a bit of a remove, a bit of stranger in a strange land, making his hilarious and poignant observations and embracing his own greenness even if some of the characters he comes across do not.
Lorne comes from a world where women have beards which kind of confuses things but his back story is obviously a gay archetype thing. His parents being ashamed of him, his music fetish, his dress all scream gay. I wish Americans were as O.K. with this stuff as Brits and Australians, then Angel's ratings might be better.
I agree that too many Americans are intolerant of gayness. I despise homophobia and it runs rampant in the U.S., alas. But I fail to see how Angel's ratings would be better if more Americans were supportive of homosexuality. I don't think Angel not being a highly rated show has anything to do with Lorne being gay (or not), or a metaphor for gayness.
Andy Hallet has said in several interviews that he doesn't consider himself or Lorne homosexual, but he also doesn't consider himself het. So, omnisexual? Asexual? I think he's just a guy who loves everybody. Who he _loves_ loves nobody knows.

On the other hand, I think Andrew is pretty clearly gay, no ambiguities there. Even if he doesn't know it. :-P
I feel like an idiot after reading what everyone else just said, and while that might not mean much, being that I thought Vermont was in Canada until just last week (sometimes The Weather Channel teaches me so more than whether I should carry my parasol when I step outside), I am still embarassed that I never realized for a minute that Lorne might be gay. Maybe the fact that he's not even human kept me from speculating on those preferences...it was less "Girls or Guys?" and more "Green With Horns or Red With Dorsal Fins?"

It all seems so clear to me now, though.
Best Lorne dialogue ever:

It's the project you've been waiting for. Yeah, it's Joanie Loves Chachi meets The Sorrow and the Pity. It's Joanie Loves Pity.

TV writing does not get funnier than that, and when delivered by Andy Hallet as Lorne, well, I'm just ecstatic...
Is there even a distinction between genders in Plyea? Lorne's "Mom" looked pretty manly to me. Maybe Lorne's the Plyean equivalent of the human subspecies known as the Metrosexual*.

*most commonly found in SF, LA, NY and Santa Barbara
I think I started full on believing Lorne was gay very early on, and not for his song choices, but when he asked a server at the bar, why can't he look as good in that, referring to Angel.

it was half jealous and half respect, and not something straight guys are willing to put into words.
Yes, it upsets me too that so many people in the US are very homophobic. I live in Massachusetts, which started the whole recent Gay Marriage issue and I am just baffled by how heated this has gotten. I'm married and have two kids. I love and adore my husband so why should I have a problem if someone else wants to be just as happy married to their significant other. Why should it matter if you are gay? I'm still waiting for an explanation by any of the politicians who say they are against marriage but for civil unions to explain to me what the big difference is. They can have all the benefits of marriage but you just can't call them married.

As for Lorne, love him gay or straight but I believe he's just somewhere in between and he finds both men and women attractive. Also, wasn't getting the whole happy family vibe back in Pylea or that it is normal for people there to want to pair up for love reasons so who knows what's normal there.

I love all the funny things he calls Angel and look forward to him being on screen as much as possible.
Not that it really matters, but I was always under the impression that Andrew's undeniably bi. Sure he had some scary/pathetic attatchment to Warren and has mentioned how hot he thought Spike and Scott Bakula (actor who portrays Captain Archer on Enterprise, also the lead from Quantum Leap) are, among other mentions I'm probably forgetting...but he's also commented on the hotness of Buffy, Anya, and Willow/Kennedy action, and it never seemed like just a gay man's appreciation of female aesthetics. He seemed genuinely attracted, horny-little-fanboyish. So in my book, he's an effeminate bisexual guy.
The one tip-off that made me pretty sure that Andrew was gay and not bi was when he was doing that videotaping around Casa Summers during "Storyteller," and he came into the living room while Willow and Kennedy were on the couch, making out. Unlike a lot of straight (or bi) men I know, Andrew didn't find two women making out at all interesting or stimulating. Instead, he zoomed the camera up to the window frame that Xander had recently fixed, all the while enthusing about Xander's carpentry skills. A very funny moment.

Sure, Andrew could still be bi. I love the ambiguity of not being "told" outright by the writers, although that windowframe incident seemed fairly telling to me. Even if it was, shudder, Kennedy that Willow was smooching. I'm not the biggest Kennedy fan, I must say.

blwessels, I'm with you on gay marriage.
They almost tried at giving him some direction in that asspect back in season 3 or did everyone forget "Waiting In The Wings" and him talking with Angel about Cordellia ....
Lorne: "And Cordelia is a hell of a lady. I mean, if I thought she'd like to wear green, I'd be elbowing you out of the way. But she's out of my league."
I don't think Andy has every really played him gay, flamboyant yes but gay not really. Although some may think he appears that way the whole thing about Angel and all the characters on the show is that looks can more often than not be the biggest deception of all, so don't judge a book by it's cover. I mean did anyone else expect Lorne to take a shot at Eve like he did. It's all about layers and Lorne has many. To bad we may never get a chance to see the rest.
@splay: and let's not forget the UK for metrosexuality's poster boy, david beckham.
Oh RavenU thanks for pointing that out (the scene from 'Waiting in the Wings.') I knew I remembered Lorne having comments here and there that definitely implied an appreciation of female hotness, but I couldn't remember any specifically.
More than anything, I think I just think of Lorne as somebody who barely has sex on his radar.
Yeah I think for both Lorne and Andrew part of the fun is that it's never quite clear. And I think it should stay that way. Lorne's wondefully funny and flamboyant, and can say things (like "Angelcakes" hehe, "Stop calling me pastries!") that other characters don't. And just when you think "Yeah, gay" he'll comment on how hot a girl looks in a homina-homina way. Love it. Besides he's not even human. Maybe all Pyleans are bi, who knows. He's a great character, and was a much needed lighter side to Angel's dark world.

As for Andrew, haha, that's even more from one end to the other. His 'love' for Spike ("you're alive! and more beautiful than ever!") would suggest him being gay, but no gay guy can go so gaga over Buffy and the Sits like he did in his little home movies. Good stuff. I'd say he's bi if I had to pick, but who cares anyway. Let it stay a mystery! They're classic characters with, once again, perfect casting.

As for America....well I live in LA but have always lived in Holland. We're the first country in the world to legalize gay marriage and not only am I happy to report that society as we know has not crumbled, it wasn't even that big a deal when it happened. Main difference I see is that now in bakeries you see cakes with little dolls groom-bride, groom-groom and bride-bride now. It's cute.

The US on the other hand can still scare the bejeebus out of me. I didn't really know how homophobic and fundamentalist people still are here. (Side note, I was also surprised to hear how hard Joss had to fight for the whole Willow-Tara thing.)

And the majority of people here 'accepts' homosexuality, yet also a majority is against gay marriage. I'd say there's a certain percentage of people that need to re-evaluate their opinions.

And now to have a law that literally forbids it?? A modern western country? I'd say that will be a severe blemish on america as 'land of the free'. But I suppose Doubya sees it as "freedom for people like me". And so many people seem to think everyone 'should' be christian and live like one. Which makes you wonder about that whole 'freedom of religion' too, but hey.....
Oh man, if I wasn't certain I didn't want Bush re-elected before, I am now, after he decided he wanted to change the Supreme Law of the Land to forbid gay marriage...my god, it's one thing for people to be debating whether they want government sanctioned gay-marriage, it's so different and so so wrong to go to try to change the Constitution over it.
I think it was in the Pylea arc wherein Lorne was challenged by his cousin or some such and said something like "Yeah, well, when you were all drokken-hunting, I was down by the waterhole chatting up the ladies." I never really cared about Lorne's sexuality and I would be just as happy with the character if he were straight or gay, but that one line strikes me as stereotypically straight alpha-maleness.
Yes, I too question how we can call ourselves "the land of the free" when we have a president who wants to change the constitution because a few "radical" judges truly looked at the constitution and said, hey, we have no right to deny marriage to gay people. Of course, it was okay when a few judges decided that he had enough votes to be president and forget about the uncounted ones left in Florida. In his opinion then the Supreme Court is respectable and right but when a Supreme court disagrees with him, well, they are a bunch of radicals.

I think it is very hypocritical to say you think Gays should have equal rights but just not when it comes to marriage. Or you believe in civil unions but not marriage.
Its interesting (in a sad way) reading some of the anti gay marriage commentary. Some of the language is the same as that used to oppose women getting the vote, desegregation, and so on. (Destruction of the family, erodes the moral fibre of society, etc)
In no way, shape or form is it fair to "lump" those who don't agree with gay marriage into the same group as those who opposed women voting or those who believe in racial segregation. They are very different things. I personally don't agree with gay marriage, (but I also don't agree with sleeping around--gay or straight)-BUT I DO understand why it is important for gays who want the right to marry. Before you all jump on me, I just want to say that just because I don't agree with something doesn't mean I am blind to an issue or cannot find reason or that I would ever judge someone because of it. I think we learn more from people we disagree with than those we DO agree with. I think we tend to hurt each other more by all the fighting and bickering we do when what we should be doing is finding the things we DO agree on within the disagreement and working from that. All I am asking is for people to be fair to those who hold different views from their own. If we ALL did that maybe things would be different.
Tracy, if you just changed a couple of words, your post would read like an eloquent statement in favor of tolerating gay people who wish to be married despite larger intolerance. :)

I personally think the anti-gay marriage rhetoric in the U.S. is poisonous and hypocritical, but I understand that many people feel very differently about it than I do, Tracy included. Everyone has a right to their own opinions. But please oh please can we not turn Whedonesque into a political debating arena? The gay marriage debate is getting ugly and vicious in the U.S. and I for one would rather not find this ugliness creeping into the glorious arena that is Whedonesque. Not that your post was ugly, Tracy. Not at all. Again, I appreciate that you feel differently than I do and I like your position on turning away from bickering and finding common ground. It is in the spirit of your remarks that I am saying what I'm saying now, because I shudder to think of other kinds of posts that might come in if we really get going on this.
I know, I agree, I just wanted to say something that wasn't mean or spiteful but also make one point that we are not all bad just because we don't agree. I don't want to see the forum get ugly either. I really enjoy it and don't want any of you hate me or think ill of me because I said what I said. I really look forward to each day's posts.
Tracy, In all "fairness" I was just pointing out a pattern that I saw in "some" (word repeated twice in my post) of the rhetoric of groups opposed to various changes we've seen in western culture over the last 100 or so years. Patterns are everywhere.

I have gay friends and relatives and am going to my first gay wedding this summer here in Toronto. So you know were I stand.

I agree we need to end this before it gets too heated.

[ edited by redfern on 2004-03-18 19:50 ]
"All I am asking is for people to be fair to those who hold different views from their own."

Interesting statement considering you're against gay marriage. I agree we don't want Whedonesque to turn into political debate, but I do want to add that what I don't get is how people can say and mean these things and still want to tell other how to live their lives.

"I know, I agree, I just wanted to say something that wasn't mean or spiteful but also make one point that we are not all bad just because we don't agree"

And you're not mean or spiteful, but my thing is, if you're against gay marriage, than that's your opinion and you're entitlied to it. But why does you having an opinion mean they shouldn't get married? We have all kinds of groups with different lifestyles, religions, ideas, opinions, etc. in this country. But aren't we all allowed to have them and still have the same rights? Isn't that the point of this place? Why does one group get to dictate how others live?

And Redfern's comparison to people against women voting or for segregation is completely valid. It all just comes down to "You're not like me, so you don't get the same rights as me." That line applies equally to all those topics mentioned.

"I'm a man. You're a woman. You don't get the right to vote and I do."

"I'm white. You're black. You don't get the right to (*fill in long list of rights*) and I do."

"I'm straight. You're gay. You don't get the right to marry and I do."

Well, like I said, I'm from Holland where it's quite normal, so maybe that's why it's difficult for me to understand these things. Culture difference I suppose.

(BTW looking at my quotes, I guess it's true white straight males are the source of all evil! And I am one! Dang! How'd that happen??;-)
Ed - One of my bestfriends is from Holland and she has the same viewpoint as you. We discuss the same issues and although we don't agree, we listen to one another and have good rational discussions about the various issues...I think it is healthy...as long as it is kept civil and each person listens. We can always learn from one another as long as we are willing to listen. I don't believe anyone is a source of evil. Everyone has different backgrounds and different foundations that build who we are and who we become...the difference...the thing that matters most...is HOW we deal with it.

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