AfterEllen.com interviews Bryan Fuller, co-creator of Wonderfalls.
Candid (slightly spoilery) interview that references BtVS and also reveals some of Dead Like Me's behind-the-scenes shenanigans.
"The network’s standards and practices have told us that we cannot have them kiss on-screen."
(OT: Sometimes I just want to bang my head against a wall repeatedly with all this stupidity. Have I lived through the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's just to end up in a world that remains this conservative? Freedom my arse.)
March 19 2004
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herb | March 19, 11:03 CET
brob1 | March 19, 11:18 CET
brob1 | March 19, 11:19 CET
(We as in another web based community.)
Caroline | March 19, 11:25 CET
MindPieces | March 19, 13:07 CET
Tycho | March 19, 13:45 CET
But there’s a lot of conservatism at the networks, because the networks are invariably run by conservative umbrella corporations that are not as liberal as the television employees.
You know, I knew this, and yet seeing it in print is like hearing it for the very first time. It explains so much about why everything is so sucky right now if you happen to hold any sort of opinion outside the politely accepted mainstream in America.
Wiseblood | March 19, 14:23 CET
I'm not a prude, I enjoy sex, I enjoy the human body, I like watching R-rated and sometimes X-rated movies, I like racy television programs such as Nip/Tuck but when I choose it. I don't think it's acceptable to use a nationally televised event to further your career and record sales regardless of who you may or may not offend. I would expect those types of performances on MTV or a music awards show but not a show that you are sitting down with children of all ages.
And what happened at the Superbowl shouldn't be compared to a television series. As someone who watches Nip/Tuck I expect to see nudity and very graphic and suggestive sex scenes. The show is known for that stuff. I certainly wouldn't sit down to watch it with a child because I know what's coming. No one knew what was coming for the superbowl show and it's obvious that it was a planned flashing.
Now for my opinion on this topic. Unfortunately, I don't think it's old people running the networks. I think a small, but vocal group of people, like some Christian groups (not all, just the ones who take everything too seriously) make a big stink every time they see something on TV that they don't like. They then organize their numbers and start letter campaigns complaining. With everything going on with the Gay marriage debate you can tell by the polls that the country is pretty much split down the middle not just on Gay marriage but in even giving Gays the rights to have civil unions and therefore, equal rights.
It seems to me that people were becoming more acceptable of gays on TV until this issue heated up and there now seems to be a backlash. And because of the backlash, I think networks are afraid to offend these very vocal, and well organized Christian groups. It's really sad that a small group have such control but, again, they are well organized.
But a lot of these polls also show that younger people are more accepting of gay relationships then older Americans so maybe in the near future when these kids are young adults things will change for the better.
Firefly Flanatic | March 19, 15:04 CET
While it's wonderful to see yourself on TV, if TV is simply another realm in which cultural symbolism outpaces and overshadows real political progress, what's the point?
There are also references to BtVS and Willow&Tara, though she does mistakenly say that Willow was already a lesbian when the show started so there was no coming out process. Besides that mistake it's a very positive piece as far as the Willow/Tara example.
marmoset | March 19, 15:53 CET
Overall, I simply think that our country as a whole is too uptight about sexual material. It's the same way in the world of film, where anything suggesting heavy sexuality gets slapped with an NC-17, but movies with blood, gore and hundreds of gruesome deaths can squeak by with a PG-13 or R rating. It's a ridiculous double standard. I still don't think the halftime show deserved this much of an uproar -- if anything, I think the massive amount of controversy will simply pound it further into our children's heads that they should be ashamed of their bodies and their sexuality. Our entire culture seems to teach that, and it's getting a little old.
Anyway, back on topic, I also think it's sad that lesbians are more mainstream friendly for these types of shows than gay men. I think that Joss created one of the most realistic depictions of homosexuality on television with Willow and Tara, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a gay man on TV that I'd consider realistic. When will someone dare to blaze that trail?
MindPieces | March 19, 16:32 CET
ringworm | March 19, 16:41 CET
mito | March 19, 16:44 CET
Now on network television...yeah, you'll be waiting another ten to twenty years at least before you see a gay (or bisexual, for that matter) relationship treated well.
Kris | March 19, 17:28 CET
Tara and Willow's relationship was done so well that you didn't even notice they were gay. They just seemed like two normal people in love. Unfortunately, on network TV anyway, I don't think there has ever been a male couple portrayed that way. On network TV gay men are always shown in a very stereotypical way and always for laughs. I'll have to get a copy of Six Feet Under though because I've never seen it and everytime someone on this site posts about it, it intrigues me more and more.
My daughter is a huge "Sailor Moon" fan (Japanese anime) and as she got older she got more interested in the original series that was shown in Japan. She was stunned by the differences in what they showed here compared to there (same cartoon but dubbed into English and things were changed because us Americans are so delicate).
For instance one of the character's name is Uranus pronounced Yer-ay-nus. Well apparently because it sounds like anus (which it's supposed to) they decided delicate children couldn't hear it that way (I guess they didn't realize the character is named after the planet Uranus). So they pronounced it Yer-in-us. I guess it sounding like urine was better than an anus. Then there was a gay couple in the Japanese version where for the American version, because he did look somewhat feminine they presented the character as a female. And the lesbian couple in the Japanese version were referred to as very affectionate cousins in the American version. She started watching when she was younger and enjoyed it but after seeing how it was originally supposed to be portrayed she was just amazed at how "dumbed" down it was for American TV.
Firefly Flanatic | March 19, 17:56 CET
Firefly Flanatic | March 19, 18:05 CET
jeebs | March 19, 18:09 CET
[ edited by jeebs on 2004-03-20 01:27 ]
jeebs | March 19, 18:27 CET
Or maybe instead of using the term realistic, I should have said romantic. I think that Willow and Tara had a beautiful, romantic relationship that many people cherished. So why does the one respectable gay male relationship on TV have to be so screwy and dysfunctional all the time?
[ edited by MindPieces on 2004-03-20 03:14 ]
MindPieces | March 19, 20:09 CET
I didn't know what to expect as far as such shows were concerned, having nothing to compare it to from the past, but I personally found the choices of music completely unappealing, the dancing tasteless and the JJ/JT interaction verging on the level of fetish-fixated, soft-core porn. Had the context been different, the situation less volatile, the broadcast on paid channels rather than free, and people in the US, in general, less conditioned to accept tawdry, mechanical titillation in almost all forms of popular mass entertainment, this wouldn't be an issue. Yet those three seconds have been forged into a politicized tool and used to chisel away at our First Amendment freedoms. That, I find really scary. I don't have cable, or kids, so shielding young, impressionable minds from objectionable material isn't a consideration in my home. (Yet I do question why so many children would be included in watching a several-hours-long football game as part of a family ritual. I understand some families do do that; it's just outside my own personal experience growing up. My family was quite religious and pro football was regarded as especially violent and unsuitable for children's viewing. But I digress.)
My contention with the whole JJ thing was the way the man was somehow able to avoid being contaminated by the subsequent fallout. I'm not particularly a fan of JJ's work, but I can't help but notice how JT was allowed to present at the Grammies and perform, whereas JJ was made to feel, by all accounts I've seen, that her presence at those same awards wasn't welcome. Even though I fault both parties' judgment for participating in what amounted to a glitzed-up locker room debauch, It's just hard for me to believe, with the relative degree of women's advancement in American society, that the public at large wasn't more outraged by the disparity of censure generated by the media.
I don't expect homosexual men to get a fair shake on network TV any time soon; American social mores are still too rooted in a puritanical fear of emasculation, as evidenced by shows like the one Fox is currently running before 'Wonderfalls'. (I'm honestly confused by Fox's approach -- I can't figure out if the idea of a straight woman trying to pick out the straight men from the gay men trying to fool her into thinking they're straight is supposed to be progressive, exploitive, or both.) I wonder if the fact that Jaye's sister is a lesbian shaped the corporate decision behind WF's Friday night timeslot. (And is that a good thing?) It looks like Sharon's sexuality won't be constantly referenced, and maybe she can evolve into a fresh, more realistic voice for gay women who are so far pretty severely under-represented in all mediums except standup comedy, as far as I can tell. As a het female, I loved Willow and Tara; being moved by Tara's death was actually what prompted me to seek out other 'Buffy' fans on line. I'd really like to see that kind of deep, tender dynamic portrayed by guys as well, and not just played for laughs.
Wiseblood | March 20, 02:34 CET
And for Justin Timberlake, I think he's a cad. Janet Jackson took full responsibility and he goes on denying that he knew that was going to happen. He was on one of those entertainment shows grinning and laughing about it the next day (the full fury hadn't quite reached it's peak yet at that point) but after he (or his manager) realized the public didn't think it was as funny he started acting like it bothered him too. The people running the awards show were cowards as well. He was up for an award and was set to perform so they let him go. I don't agree with what Janet Jackson did but I think she did genuinely seem remourseful afterwards whereas he did not.
I think the Fox executives are the biggest hypocrites. They allowed Ally McBeal to lip lock many times with other females on that show but because none of them were lesbians it was okay, and lets use Gay men for ratings in a reality show (as long as they don't have to portray them in a realistic manner) but God forbid, don't ever allow two people being portrayed in a realistic gay relationship to have a kiss.
Firefly Flanatic | March 20, 11:10 CET