I am allowing myself some hope that ME will make up for the lameness that was "Chosen" I have high hopes for the SERIES finale of AtS!!!
Anyone think it is strange that this story came from jeff Bell?

[ edited by Simpleba on 2004-03-25 11:41 ]

Simpleba | March 25, 13:38 CET

Not suprised that it came from Jeff Bell, he's the head honcho for running Angel on a day to day basis. He would be the prime minister to Joss Whedon's president.

Simon | March 25, 13:46 CET

Ahhh IC..Thanks for the clarification Simon!

Simpleba | March 25, 13:52 CET

Did anyone even expect her to be there after the comments from ealier this year about her potential appearance. I for one suspected they would do something about the character but I also felt they would make sure even if they asked her to appear she would be unavailible

RavenU | March 25, 14:01 CET

oh yes, this is good news

i'm glad that the triangle will be dealt with though... maybe the lack of buffy will make for a better story - can't wait to see how it turns out

but by god, if there was anything to get you pumped up for these final 6 episodes - that article was it

ITS GONNA BE BIG!

aapac | March 25, 14:40 CET

I can't see why they can't film a single scene with her and tag it into an episode (even if she is just on the phone or something). If they fizzle out the love triangle once and for all, then there should be a shot of her just looking happy that this phase of her life is over now.

Although I wouldn't put it past them to have done this secretly and still surprise us. She is free and willing to do a bit of filming before it ends, so they would be mad not to film something and add it in!

I'm glad the focus of the finale will not focus on the love triangle though. As AtS is darker, I want to see death and destruction. Goodbye Illyria + Gunn I say.

Shame on no news of a brief return of Lilah or Kate for the finale...

brob1 | March 25, 16:13 CET

wow this is dissapointing for me. i didnt want the finale to be about the triangle either but i wanted something. "spike and angel come to an understanding." thats just lame. its gonna be a "we have moved on" scenario which is just absolutely stupid considering how long and how much they have loved her. you dont just get over it and move on one day, things just dont work that way. very, very dissapointing especially since this is the end of the buffyverse.

norman | March 25, 16:50 CET

Well, I'm greatly relieved to hear this news. Must agree with ME's spin that shoe-horning an SMG appearance into any of the last eps would have detracted from the story about Angel, Spike and the rest of the gang. Besides, no matter how slight an appearance, Buffy would've been a plot device the way Angel was in End of Days, sucking the air out of the main story arcs in the process. That would've been lame. Now they have a chance to resolve this in a more interesting fashion. And I refuse to believe that this is the end of the Buffyverse!

punkinpuss | March 25, 17:18 CET

The article said that Spike and Angel will reach an understanding, not that they will move on.

In the season finale of Angel, Angel and Spike give motivational speaches about how they are cookie dough and are not done baking. The final apocalyptic fight centers around whether they should be shortbread cookies or chocolate chip.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-03-25 15:52 ]

electricspacegirl | March 25, 17:48 CET

As if. Snickerdoodles, always.

weatherby | March 25, 17:54 CET

Oh, thank heavens for that bit of news.

Back to my spoilerfree existence.

Caroline | March 25, 18:20 CET

Yes, that is good news.

cal | March 25, 18:35 CET

Disappointed here. Nope...not good news for me.

Coll | March 25, 18:40 CET

Hmmm, not sure how I feel about this. Probably more disappointed than not. I strenuously did not want the finale to be all about Buffy and I'm glad that the writers are honoring that. But Buffy continues to loom large in both Angel and Spike's psyches and I'd have liked to see the actress herself appear at least for a short time to deal with all that. Ah, well. Can't have everything.

phlebotinin | March 25, 18:54 CET

Disappointing? Absolutely. But, I'm going to be an optimist and believe that this will make the triangle's reunion in a feature film much sweeter.

mai | March 25, 19:09 CET

I have next week's issue of TV Guide and there's a page article about Buffy appearing in the finale, with a superimposed picture of her standing in between the scene of Spike and Angel arguing about cavemen/astronauts. It begins with "SMG's deal to resurrect Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the May 19 series finale of Angel is all but signed in blood. 'If she's available, she'll do it,' her manager promises. As a result, viewers may finally learn who is the Chosen One's...um, chosen one."
So these two articles together have me a little confused.

[ edited by irish on 2004-03-25 22:59 ]

irish | March 25, 19:21 CET

*EXCLUSIVE*

I found a picture of how SMG would have appeared as Buffy in the finale if she had been able to be in it. It appears some weird sort of spell was cast on her, but apparently she chooses both Angel *and* Spike.

Here's the pic

prufrock | March 25, 19:28 CET

Right... well, whatever. Let's try SO hard to not make Angel about guest stars, when, to quote Spike, "It's good enough for Buffy." Buffy had NO qualms about bringing on Angel *and* Faith for her finale.

I think AtS is just a *little* too concerned with trying to seperate themselves from BtVS that it runs the risk of sacrificing their storylines. Because, yeah, they're seperate shows, but that doesnt discount the fact that Buffy kinda is the center point of most of their professional and romantic lives.

Not to mention the fact that you usually want to call in reinforcements for your big ole final battles. But, whatever... I suppose I'll suck it up and try to watch Angel and Spike have *pride* or whatever, and foolishly not call Buffy in.

Cole Searr | March 25, 19:35 CET

Here are my thoughts, if they make any sense. I don't think that Buffy appearing on AtS should be about the Angel/Spike triange; it honestly seems to me like that was taken care of in "Chosen." If the finale is concerning Angel's gang being at Wolfram & Hart, it seems that Buffy and others from BtVS could fit very well into that story line. We all know that the premise of AtS has been a good guy trying to find redemption for the bad things he did in his past and Buffy was the inspiration for him to start this redemption. But this season there has been mention of Buffy, Giles, Willow, even Andrew turning away from Angel because they don't trust his being at W&H. Seems to me like that would be more painful to Angel than he's let on, especially remembering how shyly grateful he was in the first couple of seasons with Wesley and Cordelia as he began to realize that he wasn't the loner he thought he was - he very much considers his friends to be his family. So I think that having Buffy be with him at the end when he figures out the W&H angle and (hopefully!) finally gains his redemption would be nice, and would bring his character full circle. I don't think that has to take away from the other cast regulars of AtS who are all fabulous and deserve a good ending for themselves as well.

irish | March 25, 19:58 CET

Heck yeah, irish! I would just like to state a big fat "heck yeah!" and a pat on the back. Your response said all that I wanted to say, but was too snarky to be smart about.

Cole Searr | March 25, 20:21 CET

i agree with cole searr.................in the final episodes of buffy they were more than willing to bring in angel and faith back in a lame way just to get them on there......in my opinion they should of had nothing to do with it since there stories for being there sucked anyway (not to say i dint like seeing angel there cuz i was happy). now when it comes to the end of angel and the potential buffyverse, they dont want to overshadow some of the other stories, give me a break. thats just, well as i said above, LAME!

norman | March 25, 21:17 CET

i am disappointed, i just wanted a little something, she doesn't have to be in the whole episode. i just wanted a small part...oh well....

AngelicSlayer | March 25, 21:24 CET

Is anyone else hoping that this is just a hoax to feed the press so we'll all be ridiculously surprised when SMG drops in during one of the final Angel episodes? That's my hope, because I was really hoping to have her in there. I'm not sure how they plan to resolve the never-ending love triangle without some sort of appearance.

MindPieces | March 25, 21:29 CET

I am kind of disappointed, I want my closure darn it! Oh well, as if Joss would ever give us that. ;) However, I really think the shansu prophecy needs to be dealt with in the final episodes because that has been a core part of show and it would be silly (and bad story telling, i think) not to resolve it somehow, UNLESS they came back and did a movie which I don't think is likely.

[ edited by buffyfanatic18 on 2004-03-25 19:40 ]

buffyfanatic18 | March 25, 21:40 CET

I'm really hoping this is a hoax, it just doesn't seem right that Buffy's not going to be in "Angel" again. We'll never see the resolution to the love triangle, we'll never see her meet Spike for the first time since his death.

It also doesn't seem right, that after the pretty harsh things Joss and David Boreanaz said about her (apparently) when she turned down an earlier appearence, yet now that she's agreed to do an episode, they've more or less told her to sod off.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-03-25 21:47 ]

Ghost Spike | March 25, 23:47 CET

viva el SPANGEL ¡¡¡ :D hehe

rosary2 | March 26, 00:25 CET

I don't think it's a hoax. The way the WB made a big production out of announcing that James Marsters would be joining the cast of Angel before the final Buffy even aired is an indication to me that they'd be promoting the heck out of this if SMG was coming back as Buffy.

I don't think anyone is to blame here. The episodes had been written when the word came down that the show was going to be cancelled. SMG expressed interest then that she'd be willing to guest star if they wanted her but she was still in Japan at that time filming The Grudge when they needed to film the episode she'd be in. Now, I'm not sure on this but I would imagine there is a schedule on when things have to be filmed by and it's unfortunate that they couldn't have delayed the filming of that one episode to accomodate SMGs schedule but apparently they can't and I don't think it was an intentional ME thing. And they had originally written the script to have her be there earlier in the year but she couldn't do it at that time because of a death in her family so I don't think they are trying to punish her now, it's just sucky timing all around and very little warning by the WB that this is to be the last season.

And I know Angel and Faith were there for the first part of the finale but Angel's part was so brief that it was more disappointing for me to have just seen that tiny bit of a reunion and no other character's were involved. And I think it was important for Faith to be there because the whole season was about the power of the slayer and the potential slayers and Faith is a part of that group. I was happy to see some closure and acceptance of each other between Buffy and Faith.

And you know, I'm sad that she won't be a part of it but at the same time I have faith in what Joss want's to do. I do think, and know others may not agree with me, that Angel has been in the shadow of BtVS and it deserves to shine on it's own and if they had Buffy come back in the series ended with all the focus on Buffy that would take away from the greatness Angel had all on it's own.

Just look at all the publicity that has surrounded just whether or not SMG would guest star or not. Everyone seems to be focusing on that and not on what the storyline on Angel is. Angel has a great season going on right now and the momentum has been building without really even much mention of Buffy. We don't know what's going to happen and once we see it we all might be agreeing that it wouldn't have made sense to squeeze her character in just to show her.

Firefly Flanatic | March 26, 00:42 CET

There's just too many things that are being contradicted... Joss saying he was going to pitch the idea to SMG, Sarah saying she was willing to do it... then this.

BlindHawkeyes | March 26, 00:47 CET

yeah everybody has been saying different things, and i am sorry to say this, but angel has never, and will never be out of buffys shadow. angel came from buffy, and thats the way it is *(ill probably get slammed for this comment)*. and there was just as much stuff going around on whether or not DB would guest star at the end of buffy. if it is true that SMG will not be there, then i dont think anybody else from the buffy should be either because that would just be stupid to have a lower end character there and not buffy (just my opinion so dont hate me)

norman | March 26, 00:57 CET

Thanks, Cole Searr! I completely agree with you, too.

irish | March 26, 01:08 CET

I agree with Blwessels. I'm more interested in Angel's storyline than the possibility of SMG appearing. I do want to see other guest stars though. Willow or Giles. Connor, definitely. Maybe Drusilla and Julie Benz.

All I can say is I'm looking forward to the finale and I just can't wait to see what they're going to do! I think it's going to be good. Do you think they will blow up L.A.?

electricspacegirl | March 26, 01:12 CET

There has been a terrible idea nagging at me.

It's a way they could bring Buffy in and not bring her in.

What if...oh my god, what if they present to us Buffy the peacemaker in abstenia?

Remember the envelope delivering the amulet to Wolfram & Hart? Remember the handwriting on the face of the envelope? It was a scrawl, not professinal at all--what if they present to us that Buffy knows Spike is back and in fact was the one to send the amulet to Angel.

Remember the oil wrestling scenario?

I bet you and this is not a spoiler, total conjecture on my part--what if they deal with Buffy not having to see Spike because she already knows. And in fact sent him to Angel to help them mend their fences and for Spike to act as resident radical to call Angel on his behavior.

This way the emphasis remains on Spike & Angel--she can party on in Italy already having 'moved on' (and if they actually use that phrase, if I hear that lame, limp creedo acredited to the Spike/Buffy thang I'll...I'll...)

Anyway--if they had a scenario like that already cooking--they wouldn't have needed her come back. That in itself would resolve a lot.

Spike would know for sure it was over, she would be showing that she didn't care enough about him to see him; (cuz no way are they ever gonna let Spuffy hug and they could milk one last heartbreak out of JM) He could sacrifice himself (again) so Angel could shine-shoes. (remember Spike's oblique reference to giving what 'remained of his life' to helping Angel sort out the coming Bad--harbinger hmm?) What would be more shocking than to actually have him die AGAIN? And of course B/A would still be kept in a dangle.

I just thought of the worst and most psychologically unsupported thing to have happen...and yeah...ME could do it.

They had to build a storyline assuming she would not be there--and once they did...found that it would be actually detrimental if she was.

They Buffy-proofed it somehow. Had to. And then liked what they had.

Huh. o.k. you heard it here first folks.

BforBeth | March 26, 01:49 CET

Except that Lindsey already copped to sending both the amulet and the "de-ghosting mojo" package (in Soul Purpose, when he was posing as Doyle and talked to Spike). So, unless Buffy was working with him...or he was lying...

chasa | March 26, 02:17 CET

I like your idea, Isa. A friend of mine has been writing fanfic since the season started that is in the form of emails between Buffy and Fred. In these emails Buffy has known Spike is back since the beginning, but she hasn't wanted Spike to know she knows.

electricspacegirl | March 26, 02:20 CET

electricspacegirl--That sounds interesting. Is it posted anywhere? I'd like to read it.

marmoset | March 26, 02:23 CET

i guess i dont understand why she would not want spike to know, that she knows. that seems to make her look kind of mean and cruel if you ask me, since she was, well, in the end pretty damn close to him. i think she would at least care enough to see him.

norman | March 26, 02:26 CET

If Buffy knew that Spike was back she'd have been to see him, or at least contacted him. Don't see how anyone would think she wouldn't, the guy died for her, he at least deserves a thankyou.

Ghost Spike | March 26, 02:30 CET

yeah i agree, plus like i said, they were pretty close at the end so i would think she would want to see him.

norman | March 26, 02:35 CET

In my friend's defense, she was trying to fit with the continuity of the show. In her fanfic, the emails were happening behind the scenes. There were a few times she had to make up things to fit with new info. It was pretty funny how she'd get mad when the writers messed with her fics.

Here's the link:
http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=wisteria_&keyword=Correspondents&filter=all

electricspacegirl | March 26, 02:48 CET

Wow, thanks for that esg. I just read the first chapter and a half but she did a *great* job of evoking the characters' patterns of speech and it really seems like a dialogue they would have! Most excellent.

marmoset | March 26, 02:56 CET

Isa - that would be something that Whedon and company could think up and as for Lindsey claiming responsibility, well that could easily be explained as him just trying to convince Spike that he was really sent by the powers that be and taking the credit for it. Sigh, I hope we get to see a bit more of Lindsey but probably not with it being the end and all.

I do agree, though, that it probably is a good assumption that when SMG said she wouldn't be able to do the episode way back that they rewrote it and decided they liked how it came out better than the original and that really could be why they didn't want her.

And as for Spike dying...well, I don't think Joss would do that ..again. I honestly think he has this great Buffy movie idea in his head (and not for the slimy WB network but for the big screen) and he'd want to have all his stars. Of course, dead doesn't really mean dead in the Whedonverse (unless your Fred) but still, I think he'll keep him alive. Who knows, maybe the'll be a Fray movie and we'll see Spike and Angel in it.

Firefly Flanatic | March 26, 03:18 CET

Nope this isn't posted anywhere--just growing in my own little kanoodle. I write fanfic too--and given the facts so far--I projected this as a possible scenario that would solve a lot of their problems--but as I write Spuffy--I could never solve why Buffy wouldn't contact Spike. I agree with Ghost Spike any sane Buffy would run to see her Spike, if not as a lover than as any loving friend would--now I wouldn't do it--BUT. ME might.

They could dress it up some way like those pretend scenarios, you know, they way people REALLY don't behave unless a screenwriter is making them. (ie Cordy sleeping with Connor--still having trouble with that one) and they could say--she was giving them space to heal the family connection thing. And since she already knew Spike was alive--she wouldn't NEED to see him.

The pressure would be off--cuz maybe she's getting secret reports from somebody on the inside. Keeping tabs on her guys.

Sure there would be risk--but at heart she would have faith in the character structure of both men.

It would also act as story subtext to paint a picture of her moving on--but wanting loving things for her ex's. See? They could paint her as being the charitable one. Casting a loving glance back even as she gallops a trot.

I might just puke.

As for the character death...well...who can say? Joss has dropped red herrings. Spike's dream of drowning in footwear, of course Angel's five year quest and this little slip about 'what's left of my life' as if Spike had a premonition about himself. But they contradict.

I'm still hoping for ryhme and some reason.

Maybe Spike was never able to go see Buffy because he feels no future. Maybe, just maybe him being adrift this season was done on purpose. Maybe he has no destiny, because he makes his own daily--impulsively.

You have Angel symbolizing being destined and cursed (no free will) and Spike's counterpuntle of living day to day--impulsively.

If I was writing it--these are the themes I would tackle. Free will--choice vs destined fated behavior. Are we the decisions we make or does the world decide for us? (Or of course some combination)

Would Spike in the end make such a sacrifice of his free will because he doesn't feel a future for himself...and then would such a 'fated' endgame be ironic?

My mind burns.

Or, yeah they could kill Spike off as a gesture of cannon fodder and just another soldier serving while the generals live on and say something with it. I wonder how Joss feels about Iraq.

Joss seems to like going for the pain these days. Like D'Hoffran--always go for the pain. I just described the scenario that would cause me the most possible pain.

Whatever it is, however it falls down--I think it's gonna be high stakes (and maybe staked) But no Buffy--the themes this year don't seem to include love, so it would be easy to keep her out. But evervbody could be killed...but not Angel...everybody could be killed except Angel--I really don't think Joss would kill him...unless it's with undertones to bring him back human.

It may be everyone has to suffer for the bad call their leader made and he is left standing to bear it. Hmm.

Oh yeah baby...I think I might have their number.

Dialing...may day (the 16th is it?)

BforBeth | March 26, 05:26 CET

Uh, no offence, but I really can't see Buffy sending the amulet to Angel so they could 'work out their differences.' I honestly don't think she cares.

I'm not really sure there's much likelihood of a big-screen movie. I mean, they're lucky with Firefly in that there's only one season. People who never saw Firefly can still go see the movie, and it won't have to be constant exposition. With Buffy and Angel, though, I think film companies would be looking at the fact that the majority of their audience would (likely) only be people who had seen the shows before. I mean, you could probably write a movie for it that people who had never seen the show could watch, but I can't imagine it would be that great for those of us who have seen it all. And then people want things resolved, like the triangle, and that's not going to make much sense without referencing the shows. I have probably made no sense here.

weatherby | March 26, 05:41 CET