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April 06 2016

(SPOILER) Discuss the Angel & Faith Season 10 finale. Issue 25 came out today.

A boring end, to meh season. I'm sadly disappointed with this season. Some good things such as bringing Fred and Drusilla back. The Rest was kinda boring. Hopefully if it comes back for another season they get better writers and bring back more classic Angel characters.

[ edited by dpunkjrocksm on 2016-04-06 21:36 ]
Mileage varies of course, Fred's return is something I was very disappointed to see as her death was so powerful, and I didn't enjoy Dru's appearance or her 'all too easy and predictable' escape. The return to more of a detective tone for Angel was great though and I really liked Koh's inclusion in this title. I'd like another season but hope a little more attention goes to researching their setting so we don't have gun fights on the streets of London etc.
Fred was supposed to originally come back on the show though, before they got canned.
I thought the idea was that Illyria would transform into Fred more and have an identity crisis, not that they would change that Fred had been destroyed. They only have brought her back now through having the new seed recreate her alongside Illyria when she reformed, not that Fred was always still there I believe. Whichever, I still think it has reduced one of the best/boldest character endings they did.
The death and (supposed) extinguishment of Fred was my least favorite thing about the Buffyverse in general, and I'm very happy they undid it.
Amy Acker has definitely said the plan was to separate Fred and Illyria in season six. I remember reading that in a handful of different interviews.
But yeah, meh season. I liked the ending, but it was fairly predictable. It also felt like too many plots weren't finished, including the Fred/Illyria dynamic. I know they'll probably tap all of that stuff next season, but this season was just... lacking. And they had real potential in front of them. Amy, Reese Zane being morally grey, Illyria/Fred... All pushed aside to focus on meh "big bads".
In his Reddit AMA in April 2012 (url below) Joss was asked: "Would you have brought Fred back if Angel hadnít ended with season 5?" and his answer was: "Season six of Angel would have kicked all manner of ass. And Illyria would have manifested as Fred often enough to become very confused about her identity."

So that isn't a literal separation, Fred in and of herself was gone. Personally I found it an amazingly powerful storyline where a brutal cost of the lives they lead was truly felt and just think that it gave depth to the whole verse left as that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/s2uh1/i_am_joss_whedon_ama/

[ edited by Stoney on 2016-04-07 11:45 ]
Given my understanding of what a soul represents in the Jossverse (not the same as the Christian concept of the soul), I believe that it is, and should be, impossible to truly destroy one by any means whatsoever.
I think it was always a given that the phraseology (like Tara) was largely meant to imply no take-back's so the fans weren't simply waiting for it.

The issue if they'd never done anything with Fred was that she was honestly a big part of at least three primary characters (two especially) dramatic warchest. So sure they could have just moved on but what she meant to Wes and Gunn and what they meant to her was a whole mess of feels that would frankly would have taken another 3 seasons to build up with another character.

Also /politelydisagreed with Andrew. Fred for me was another arcing character I really enjoyed. Her main issue was it was a really fighty show and she was sort of Dawn/Anya-esque in power level. Not a total dealbreaker, but Angel was often a really plot heavy show and a lot of it was a Wes and Angel plot so if you weren't punching AND you weren't them, well there's a reason Gunn had to be magicked lawyer powers to give him something to do.

And as a Texan, I do enjoy they started with an over the top accent but adjusted back to human being with her and her family quickly.

[ edited by azzers on 2016-04-09 22:32 ]
A permanent, no take-backs, erased-from-existence-entirely death (except in the memories of those who knew her...a little like how real life works, if atheists are right) was one of the bleakest and most gut-wrenching ends that the Buffyverse ever gave a character and it was all the more bold a franchise for it. That a soul could be destroyed was a unique and horrific surprise and it was necessary (for all the rest of Fred's friends, but especially for Wesley) to truly grieve for her loss in a universe where death can sometimes be undone. Wesley would've left no stone unturned in the quest for her resurrection if there'd been even a sliver of hope.

Hearing that they undid it with the comics has me convinced that I probably really never will get around to reading them again (at least not Angel & Faith). Not if that's the sort of weak sauce they're cooking up.

I hope to eventually get around to checking out Season 9 of Buffy and maybe some of the minis and spin-offs or one-offs they had in Season 9 and 10...but Angel & Faith doesn't sound so good.

Still need to polish off all my IDW Angel & Spike comics too. I had to have been more than halfway through them (bought everything, in hardcover where possible) before I got too busy to prioritize them (have stacks and stacks of trades, some probably a decade or more old, from back before I stopped buying comics).

There was a lot I liked about Buffy Season 8, despite some criticisms (definitely wasn't one of the fans bitching about the space-sex). Without spoilers, how did Season 9 and 10 stack up overall (all titles considered) ?

[ edited by Kris on 2016-04-10 02:11 ]
A&F S9 was stronger than BtVS mainly because the writing in the main title wasn't as solid as A&F's. The Willow mini in S9 I personally found dull, the Spike mini was better imo. S10 of BtVS is stronger so far than A&F (BtVS is not done yet, it has another 5 issue arc left). There is the potential for some meaningful character steps to come I think, although there also feels to be a risk Gage is overly signalling his intention with little nuance or characterisation depth to fit where he wants it to end up. Maybe not, we'll see. But I did find A&F S9 from Gage, whilst the stronger title, too predictable. Despite S9 of BtVS being the weak spot, and dislking for the same reasons as you the Fred development of A&F S10, I think the overall direction for all the character's paths in both titles from the show to where they are now in the comics is coherent, the broad sweeps work even if the execution isn't always great.

[ edited by Stoney on 2016-04-10 12:01 ]
Kris It never made any actual sense, though, a nd required trusting W&H experts. Destruction, well burning in fire leaves ashes, gravitational collapse leaves a neutron star or a black hole, matter and antimatter meeting lets loose radiation etc.
I would be willing to give back ALL of the other character resurrections, except Buffy's, in order to undo Fred's.

I understand the metaphysical underpinnings of the Jossverse... Good is not inherently stronger than Evil. Good is not guaranteed to win. It's possible that Evil will win in the end, and it's possible that Good people will die without anything to show for it. Heroes don't always get to win, or even to die heroically.

But here's the thing... I live in a bleak world and I don't want my entertainment to be just as bleak, if not worse. I want a happy ending for my characters, even if that means they get killed and shunted off to some heaven dimension. It may not be a "realistic" outcome, but if I wanted realistic outcomes I'd go outside and look at the real world, and save a lot of money on DVDs, cable subscription, and comics.

I still liked Angel after Fred's death, but it knocked about a half a star off my rating of it. No other single event in either show ever did that.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I *shouldn't* like Joss's storytelling at all. But somehow, I do.
Just wanted to give some brief thoughts on the end of Angel & Faith in season 10(issue 24 and 25)

Overall I thought the last tow issies were fair.I think overall Angel & Faitrh was weaker this season so the ending was never going to be as exciting as the conclusion of Angel & Faith in season 9.

I really liked noir feel of this season and character stuff.I think Koh worked better here then in Buffy last season.I thought Nadira's arc over the two season was good.

Archaeus was a poor big bad IMO.

Mixed reaction on the Illyria/Fred stuff due to another character being brought back.

I think Angel and Faith's arc wasent as strong this season but again I think part of that is that I thought the season 9 storyline was stronger.

Overall Angel & Faith this season was okay but not great like last season.

I'll admit I'm also not as interested in Magic TOwn at this point so i'm hoping for a change next season.

I think I'd rather have Angel & Faith play a role in Buffy next season rather then a monthly book.Maybe a Angel & Faith mini series or a limited run instead.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2016-04-13 01:52 ]
"willing to give back ALL of the other character resurrections, except Buffy's"

Those aren't really that common:
"Prophecy Girl" Just for completeness, I'm including it, even though it was medical, not a resurrection.
Angel-In "Becoming," we saw him being drawn, body and all, t through the portal, and he came back the same way, just like Connor and Holtz did later form a different portal.
Darla- That was a major act of necromancy, involved a sacrifice of 5 beings, and was performed by a demon mage of demi-god-like power, it seemed.
Jack O'Toole and his gang- they had their minds, presumably their souls, but physically they were zombies, not resurrected.
"Forever" Joyce - we saw the legs, and the shadow, but we don't know what That Really Was
Spike- well, unlike Angel, we saw him disconubrating form the energy, but he was wearing the amulet all the time, so it's at least as likely he was gradually being drawn into it rather than burning up.
Kennedy- That was almost a blow-off. Willow mentioned d in assign that Kennedy had been killed by a mystic force and Willow brought her back. No details

That's mostly it. Until Giles and Fred, by which time many rules of magic had changed.

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2016-04-13 12:54 ]
The last few issues have felt a bit off, and overall the first season of Angel & Faith (or first series I guess) was better than this. However, I'm happy about where this story leaves them. I like Angel & Faith back together. I like having Fred back, with Illyria always potentially available when they need to pull out a big gun. I like Koh being in the group, and I like the love the community has for Angel and company. This feels like the old Angel, where he has a team and he's fighting the good fight and there are people who know they can come to him (and also Faith) for help.

I don't mind Fred being back, as when you keep something going as long as Buffy/Angel has, it seems inevitable characters are going to come back. It happens all the time in comics and that's what the Buffyverse has morphed into. They're not TV shows anymore. And I like the Fred/Illyria dynamic. I hope they never get separated as it's kind of fascinating seeing two people have to literally share the same body. And it's a very interesting parallel to Angel/Angelus. I also felt that Fred's death was a truly horrific end to a character. I never like the "soul is destroyed" thing. We know there is such a thing as a heaven in the Buffyverse because Buffy has been there, and we know there is a realm of "higher powers" so the idea of Fred's soul being destroyed, essentially wiping her from existence was a bit much to take.

For all the angst fans have had over the years over Tara's demise, Fred's fate was FAR worse.

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