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"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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April 15 2004

What to watch Wednesday ? - Angel of course. The review thread for AtS S5x17 'Underneath'. It's been six weeks since the last episode, so what did you think of the new episode? Chat about it at Flickr as well.

Herc hasn't put up his review at AICN, and according to Angel's Acolyte ""Angel" did not feed in analog at the usual time this morning.". So I'm using Bianco's picks for Wednesday for the review thread.

And hilariously despite being in the States right now, my hotel room doesn't have WB on its cable package.

Most US hotels seem to not have the WB. I don't know why, and it bothers me that one of the 6 major network stations is missing.
That's odd, whenever I go I always seem to have the WB. Just luck I guess.

The guy who wrote the column seems to be of the belief that The WB didn't intend to air these episodes, and the fact that it's returning is a sign of victory for the postcard senders. "The return is likely to be brief", theres no likely about it, the show is definitely going off the air again in 5 weeks whether it gets a 6th season or not. People, especially people who work for a respected paper should do their research.

Glad that it's getting publicity, as they say there's no such thing as bad publicity.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-04-15 02:09 ]
Fortunately, my future brother in law has TIVO so I'll be watching it on Thursday or Friday. And he has a telly the size of Luxembourg so it's all good.
Well, you'll all be happy to know that they've edited the opening credits! We get Illyria & Harmony goodness! <333
Good for Mercedes, she deserves to get a title spot, but it throws the credits off the beat, like it did when Andy was Added last year.

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2004-04-15 03:11 ]
Christopher! I was going to say the same thing! I almost died at the credits. I've been alternating between screaming like a little girl at the fact that it's finaly back or screaming and cursing at the idiots who canceled the show!
cubiclesatan, I did exactly the same thing!! My family is pretty freaked out though, they don't understand the joy of it all. :|
The Shrimp Dimension Reference = Best Reference Ever.
another soldier down.
Loved Spike with his briefcase....only five more left to go :(
Rather surprised myself that Spike's a Knight Rider fan.
Loved it. Great ep. Best that Craft and Fain have done, in my opinion.

The Shrimp Dimension? Its mention made me pine for Anya. I do so enjoy these cross-show references just for fans. What other shows go to these lengths to please long-time viewers? And Adam Baldwin putting on a very un-Jayne-like demeanor. Prissy, even. Hilarious.

Will Gunn be rescued from BurbHell? Who were these Wolf, Ram and Hart in Ilyria's glory days? Is Ilyria getting slightly more Fredlike? And is it my imagination, or are Angel and Spike starting to sort of get along? Eve is still annoying, though. Some things never change.
The shrimp reference was great! I love it when thay throw something in for the hardcore fans. And it was great to see Adam Baldwin again. This episode set up so many interesting new story lines with the new liason to the sinior partners, Gunns self inflicted hell, Loren's hidden feelings about his place in the group ect.. ect... Too bad we only have 5 eps. to explore all this.
Yeah, i'm depressed. We're now up to 4 soldiers down, i wonder who's next? Remember the flicker group people. GO!! NOW!!!! And to tell you the truth i was kinda wanting to go to hell there for a minute.
I missed the beginning of the second act because the fire alarm in my dorm went off, so I'll have to download that as soon as it becomes available online. Great ep, though. Loved the shrimp-world references.
I loved Wesley and Illyria waxing poetic. There is so much they can do with that story line and it's just tragic that Joss won't be allowed to follow that up in a 6th season.

I loved this episode so much! Easily one of the best, if not The Best. It moves the arc along, answers some questions, and raises some more. I'm glad they didn't reveal what happens in the cellar when Lindsey (and now Gunn) go down there. I have my own ideas and It's good they didn't ruin the mystery.

The world of nothing but shrimp! Angel mentioning his elevator ride with Holland Manners! Lindsey is back and Illyria is staying! And she's in the opening credits, yay!

I give this episode an A+ because it was total perfection!

I also wanted to add that my brother just told me that he's hooked on the Whedonverse now, thanks to me loaning him my DVDs. Another succesful convert to the greatest addiction of all time. I'm a proud girl.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-04-15 08:10 ]
Great episode. The minute they started talking about other dimensions, I was just waiting to hear about shrimp. I was distracted during the opening credits and soon realized I might have missed something in them. Guess I did. And the scene with Eve, Lorne, and Harmony after they see Baldwin's character doing his thing..... priceless!

Did anyone else notice that Spike and Angel were standing in the same poses or making the same movements in a lot of the scenes? Not all of them, but it seemed that there were several where they mimicked each other's movements and stances.

Poor Gunn. I can't wait to see what's going to happen to him, as well as Illyria. It was great seeing Adam outside of his Jayne role. Also, very cool to hear a bit more about Eve, and how she was immortal, but no longer so.
If we really are gonna have Illyria around as a permanent cast member (for the last 5 episodes anyway), I sure hope they figure out something for her to do besides have annoying high school philosophy conversations with Wes.

Have you ever looked at your hand? I mean, really looked at it?

[ edited by fraying on 2004-04-15 08:23 ]
Oh, Angel, how I've missed you! It joys me just to hear the mournful cello intro!

Excellent insertion back into our story (with early exposition handled quickly and without a 'previously' by the writers -- well done!). So much to love. Wesley breaks my heart, though his brooding may well give Angel a run for his money. Illyria continues to amaze and intrigue. Amy is so good in this role that I find myself even angrier at the WB for taking away our chance to watch her fully unfold. Spike and Angel, growing closer. New liaison Hamilton, hot *and* dangerous! Mmmm, trouble's a'brewin'. :) Gunn taking Angel's 'it's never too late to atone' to heart -- a great ender. And Angel in hero mode, shouldering up to engage the battle that's already begun.

More questions than answers, just the way I like it. Damn, this show is so good. Why don't more people love it? It kicks so very much ass, it's so amazingly deep -- all that stuff at the beginning between Illyria and Wes about how shallow many lives run, how and why we become the way we are, how we impose rules upon ourselves when we can be free if we choose to.

Just, wow. Mind-expanding TV. What a concept! I'm loving it for all I'm worth while I still can.
I just watched it. I thought the episode was written well...but the one thing that really bugged me about this episode were the musical cues. They seemed to be overdone at points, and I think that certain jokes (like the whole World With Only Shrimp) would have been better executed if there was a musical pause and such.
I do think that Herc's review of this episode was a little overexaggerated, but even still, this is certainly better than anything else on television. Every character had very profound moments, and there were times where I felt the script didn't "go together" as well as usual (the transitions between scenes and such), but I think that every character's moments and words in this episode more than ever made up for it.

And the new credits look kind of funny, but yay Mercedes McNab!
lol fraying. All I can think of is:

"They call them fingers, but I've never seen them fing."
I really enjoyed the return of the show, and thought the episode was great, but what's up with all the people leaving? First you lose all the chicks, and now you lose the only brother on the show? Damn.

"I'm expressin' with my full capabilities,
and now I'm livin' in correctional facilities."

-- NWA
I don't think we've seen the last of Gunn. And we certainly haven't seen the last of Ilyria, although granted she's not very "chick-like."
I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him seeing as how he was in the preview of next week's show.
I liked the episode, thought it was another really good one but not a great one. It seemed more like one to set up the rest of the episodes for this final season. Lots of good things in it but just not a top ten for me. I enjoyed that Angel and Spike seem to be getting closer and working more as a team. Loved the scene with the depressed Lorne and how insightful it got that he has to be "on" all the time for the team even though he doesn't feel that way. The "death" of Fred seems to have really hurt him deeply (all of them in fact - more so than Cordelia's). I loved Angel repeating Fred's "handsome man saves me" line to Spike and Spike understanding and not cracking a joke. Loved Lindsey's Hell dimension and the implication of what goes on in the basement. The kid coming out with the machine gun though was a little alarming to me that they actually did that with all the attention given to kids and school shootings in the media. I liked Angel's reaction to the realization that Gunn had to stay and knew from the beginning he'd most likely have to stay. I hope they find a way to rescue him. Loved the dream sequence with Wesley and Fred and then the conversations with Wesley and Ilyraia. I can't wait to see where they go with her storyline. Love Adam Baldwin so much and was just so thrilled to see him. My first memory of him is in that real cute movie "My Bodyguard" and he's been in so many different roles and seems to be able to play anything. It was just so funny after seeing him play the tough Jayne in Firefly, to a tough soldier in Stargate SG-1 to now playing the somewhat prissy sounding Hamilton.

(I posted this in the "Herc" thread too because that is usually the one where we discuss the newest episode).
Most US hotels seem to not have the WB. I don't know why, and it bothers me that one of the 6 major network stations is missing.

It won't bother me any longer in 6 weeks. (Hear that, Levin? You Wanker!)

BTW, please tell me there's a "blooper reel" outtake of the last scene, before the opening credits, where Adam bursts into the room. Except he's in Jayne's gear, wearing his beard; and finding no one home, starts burglarizing the room and the kitchen.
Bad things always happen here.

I teared up at this reference - the delivery was so sincere, it was like Angel wasn't even aware that he was still quoting Fred.

Loved the cross-series shrimp world reference. I wonder if Ilyria commenting on Wes calling her a Smurf was another, admittedly very thin, cross-series reference to Buffy's "I'll handle the Smurf" (referring to the Judge in 'Innocence'). I know, that's stretching it, it was just the first thing I thought of when Ilyria said that.
"I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him seeing as how he was in the preview of next week's show."

I watched the previews twice, and I didn't see Gunn either time. That said, I also don't think that we've seen the end of him.

One thing. Charmed certainly makes no bones about being full of the skin factor, does it? At one time, Angel would have given them a run, with Darla, Cordelia, a little Faith and Lilah, but with all the departures, there's no chance now. Nothing wrong with a little hottie factor, and Angel doesn't have it right now. I'm hoping for Nina's return, actually.
Re the Smurf: Didn't the Judge also use the phrase "reeks of humanity" (I think with reference to Spike and Dru)? Or was it just "stink" or something else?
All Charmed has going for it is the "boob" factor. Angel never needed to resort to that to have a fan following. I'd hate to see them start to do that. I used to enjoy Charmed until it became all about Phoebe's "charms". I can't even stand to watch the previews for that show now because that's all it seems to be about.

Even when Angel had all those beautiful actresses, it was the storyline people tuned in to see not flesh. Even Cordy's most revealing outfits never came anywhere close to what they have Phoebe wearing on Charmed.

And speaking as a woman, I think Angel has a huge hottie factor! The more of Angel, Spike and Wesley the better for me!
He was lying on a table in the basement looking pretty freaked out. Maybe it was the "scenes from future eps", not next week's show, but I know I saw him. Only wish I was home instead of at work so I could tell you for certain where it was that he popped up.
The curse of the working class--- having to work instead of watching Angel and buffy!!
"I think Angel has a huge hottie factor!"

You took the words right out of my mouth, blwessels! Angel, Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Lindsey, Knox, even Lorne. Hot guys no matter what size or shape or dimensional origin you prefer. For me, it's Wesley and Spike. Yummy. How could the WB fail to exploit this marketing and promotional strategy? Maybe it's because they are hot AND can act.
Dumbass network.
blwessels - I hope you didn't see the mermaid episode of Charmed, the episode that convinced me to stop watching (yes, I'm embarrassed to admit that I let myself be entertained by Charmed for over four years). The plot was a complete ripoff of Disney's version of "The Little Mermaid," and Alyssa Milano's top consisted of nothing but six specks of glitter covering each nipple.
Invisible Green - I did see that episode and I think that was it for me too. I liked Charmed in the beginning, it was a lot of fluff, but it was light and entertaining. Then it just got plain stupid and desperate.

Back to the hottie factor of Angel - A calender featuring all the hot men of Angel would be great, especially if some of those pictures had them shirtless!! They are all so gorgeous and sexy and yes, they can actually act too!!
Spike and a briefcase, what can I say :).
Hee, bookrats, I'd love to see that outtake, too. Especially if he's wearing the mom-knit hat from "The Message."

The episode was fine, a setting up kind of episode as many others have mentioned, although I honestly wasn't expecting a whole heck of a lot given that this was a Craft and Fain episode, and I think they're the weakest writers in the ME stable. Still, the lingering sense of grief gave it a nice mood. It's always good to see Lindsey, and I'm excited about Hamilton's presence.

I can't believe there are only five episodes left. The WB reminding us of that every five minutes (not to mention being hugely spoilery in the promos -- I knew about Connor coming, but couldn't they at least have held it until the trailer for next week, when we'd actually be seeing him?) makes me sad, but mostly mad at them.
"Even when Angel had all those beautiful actresses, it was the storyline people tuned in to see not flesh."

Ahem, for some who shall remain nameless, it was about the storyline AND the flesh. Ain't nothin' wrong with enjoying the well-made forms in this world of ours, in moderation, of course. I can take the argument of it just being turnabout -- with the ladies getting their share now -- it's just that down the stretch in the FINAL eps it's a little rough.

I knew about Connor coming, but couldn't they at least have held it until the trailer for next week, when we'd actually be seeing him?)

I don't mind them giving up some juice for the very next episode -- I gave a little gasp and a smile seeing Connor say, "Dad?"
By the way, sweet/chilling line by Gunn, "I must be losing my mind."
Yikes. There I go spoiling myself.

No trailers with downloads...
I hate the WBs trailers. Advertising it as "the final x episodes", it's like them mocking us that they've killed the show, and there's absolutely nothing we can do. It also makes it sounds like it's supposed to be the ending, like these episodes were written to be the last ever episodes, they weren't.....bastards.
I was wondering about that - at Whedonesque, are spoilers aired in trailers still considered spoilers?

I'd been trying to avoid that bit of information ever since I heard there was a big spoiler in the recent trailer, so I cringed when I read it. But then, I know better than to be hanging around online when trying to avoid spoilers at the trailer level.
One detail I noticed in this episode was the mention of "two soldiers" down. I think someone else already commented on this, but to my count, there are three soldiers down on Angel - Doyle, Cordelia, and Fred. Or four soldiers down if Gunn is now included. So who was referenced as the "two soldiers". Cordelia and Fred? Or Fred and now Gunn?

And I was also very annoyed at the WB trailer. I had kept myself spoiler-free, so this was news to me about the returning characters. The WB has a lot to answer for!!!
I hate how the WB spoils us. I try to avoid their trailers as best I can, but I still found out about the return of that character last night. Still, as unspoiled as I was, I knew that story wasn't done. No one gets the happily ever after in the Whedonverse....
I think the two soldiers down were either Cordy and Doyle or Cordy and Gunn, more likely Cordy and Gunn, as they're the two that Lindsey would know of, that have died (or become trapped in Hell) since they came to Wolfram & Hart.
Two soldiers down were Cordy and Fred. He said "Since you joined W&H". Doyle happend pre W&H.
I'm pretty sure Fred & Gunn were meant by the "two soldiers down" line.
Sorry if I spoiled anyone, but it seemed safe to assume that the trailer for next week is essentially a part of the episode that we're discussing; I know we've talked about them in episode threads before. And heck, they were promoting that particular appearance in promos that aired even before last night's trailer, so you could have very well run across that information just by watching the WB at any point over the last week. I blame the network!

I must have missed the "losing my mind" line. Wow. Poor Gunn.
Oh, I blame the network, too, but last night was the first time I saw the promos, since I'm not watching anything on the WB anymore, except of course our show.
I assumed Lindsey meant Fred and Gunn as well. Definitely Gunn, at least, as it cut right to Gunn afterwards and Lindsey was talking about Gunn a few lines before that.
I took it as Fred and Gunn as well.

Because Lindsey said 'Since you joined Wolfram & Hart', the only people he's lost have been Fred and Gunn. Yes, Cordy died, but they technically lost her to a coma before they joined W&H. Which is also why her death could have affected them so lightly. She was already off in a hospital, brain dead. Angel and Spike were technically more alive than she was at that point. In a way, it was like they could have been mourning her death throughout her coma.

And is it just me, or does it seem like these hospital rooms they've shown - Cordy's, Spike's, and Gunn's - are part of the W&H building? Every time, I just always feel like it's another floor to the building or something. They're an uberlawfirm, it wouldn't surprise me.
See, I'm not too worried about the 'spoiler' in the trailer. Because I feel like it's something we'd get in the opening anyway. I.e., this last episode, the first guest star is "Christian Kane," and within the first act we know this one's gonna be somewhat about Lindsey. I have a feeling next week is going to be very similar - this season, with the exception of Lindsey's first reappearance in the bed, the writers have *not* been hinging on all the big shocker twists that they used last year. Instead, they get the surprise/big return out of the way early, and make the most of it throughout the episode. I think it's made for better writing and an overall better show.

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