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February 21 2017

(SPOILER) Discuss Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 4x15 "Self Control". The episode was written and directed by Jed Whedon. This is the last new episode for several weeks. The show returns April 4.

I actually saw the screen flicker as this was put on the site! It's always appeared static to me.

And HI!
Hi all!

Some good action tonight.

I have questions about this being the end of the pod but we'll get to those later.
Howdy all. Dusk that sounds ....... ominous.
You know everything is creepy when you think it's a robot replicant that's saying it.
Nope. Ew. Stop it. No.
May is going to save the day.
Agreed. What ?
I had to replay that last moment again.
You going evil on us Dusk ?
I just kinda lost the will to live with that little plot twisty horribleness! (It better not be Simmons. And then Fitz has to shoot LMD Simmons. That'd be awful!)
It looked like Simmons is a LMD or did I mis read that ?
I feel like I'm going to be confused for most of this episode.
Dusk is Canadian, so evil by default.
She is May, and May is too ethical to prioritize her happiness over the greater good.
Topher moment.
Is that man NEVER satisfied? JFC.
How was his blood red though?
So so so so so creepy.
@BlueSkies9 I believe that Radcliff built them that way.
This episode is seriously creeping me out.
Huh. An army of Daisies?
The hell with everything else! That's creepy!
There are 12 models.
Radcliffe outfitted Aida with synthetic blood. She built the 4 with it I guess.
Going for a world record in twists it appears.
And they have a plan.
@NYPinTA Ah, gotcha. Makes sense! I guess I've been binging too much Humans recently.
@Nypinta and why not an army of Daisy's ?
How screwed would Daisy have been if she wore a different colour underwear?
He's kind of sealing his own fate.
Never try to out logic a robot.
>> Never try to out logic a robot.

Unless you're James Kirk.
Ok we are setting twist & creepy show bests tonight. Dayum.
Well, FitzSimmons' relationship will never be the same. She'll most likely have major nightmares/flashbacks every time she closes her eyes.
He should have hung out with Mack more than Fitz...
My money is still on May to save the day.
This sounds very much like Dollhouse right now.
Please please please May join them.
Holy crap... DEATH BALL
What's that agent's name again? She never gets to be more than an enthusiastic extra.
May is going to save the day
Agent Piper.
I don't see how they can finish this tonite. That said GREAT Episode !

[ edited by JDL on 2017-02-22 04:47 ]
May better save the day.
@RobynH Ha! I thought that as soon as I posted.
@RobynH I think you're right. LMD May has too much May in her compared to the others.
Piper needs to be in this more.
How much did the blast destroy? there's still a bunch of innocent agents and Fitzbot/Daisies to worry about.
Simmons ordered the three that are with them to get all the unconscious agents out, so they should have been clear of the blast.
So that was badass.
Wait. Huh? Why was Jemma's version of the non-hurty world a grave marker??

Is Jemma going to have to crawl her way out of the grave?
Aaaand we're back to Hydra.
Skyeward and Hydra just won't quit.
What would you give up to live
in your own personal paradise?
Pretty sure Jemma just put herself in a coma. Aida either reset things to punish them both or the regret reversal resulted in her death just as SHIELD without Phil results in Hydra-May.
I guess this is a way to bring Brett Dalton back for the end?
The Furturama President Jars!
So who is in the limo with Fitz?
Why would Daisy's one regret have to do with Ward? Wouldn't it be with Lincoln?
Anybody else get the sense that this arc is a series finale?
Like I said, either Aida reworked it to punish them both for escaping, without a Daisy scan it somehow defaulted to Ward instead, or the changes resulted in Ward & Daisy ending up on the same side, perhaps Hydra.
Well I'm not getting any sleep for 6 weeks or so.

(Also omg who is fitz dating)

(also omg the potential for insane cameos is insane)
So we'll get to see everyone's dream life? May as the Director. Coulson living a small life with his cellist? (Amy Acker!) Fitz as Tony Stark? I bet his dad will make an appearance. Mack with his daughter, Daisy for some reason with Ward, (which makes no real sense to me),.... and Jemma as a zombie. Great. Should be trippy.
I highly doubt this is the series finale.
Weird to think that if we don't kill ourselves off,
some variation on this will be real within 30 years.
Anybody else get the sense that this arc is a series finale?

That's what I fear, with Ward showing up again.
a 5th season is almost guaranteed, I'll let iraationtv come in later and explain. :P
This is an updated version of "The Prisoner."
Where was Ward? I missed him. I think that was Virtual Lincoln Daisy was sleeping with, wasn't it?
So I guess Aida is our ultimate Big Bad here. Marrow and Radcliffe as little arc bads. I hop/don't think this'll last more then an episode, maybe two if they've gotta figure a way to bring Jemma back...this will tie into Mack's Hope and maybe Fitz Dad but we've still got VJ in the ocean to get too....
Ward was in the photo with Daisy.
Daisy went to wake up her boyfriend, thinking Lincoln but we saw a picture of her smiling with Ward.
Ohh maybe MatrixFitx is DatingMatirxAIDA. (pointless speculation)
Or Agent Carter, as long as I'm wishing for things.
Freaky episode tonight but a great one.Interesting way to possibly bring Ward and Hydra back too.
I'd say Ward coming back is more than a possibility.
The thing is... why would Radcliffe (or Aida, or Ivanov) have created their virtual world around Hydra? None of them have any affiliation with it.

The logical answer is that the Darkhold is a Hydra artifact... meaning it was probably created by Hive as a fail-safe of some kind, probably before he got exiled on Maveth.
AIDA did say she had to keep resetting the framework, maybe the butterfly affect messed up stuff?

I have to go run around in circles screaming, brb. :P
Andrew wins the internet for the week!
I can not express how much I do not want to see Ward ever again. He died on the blue planet and should have stayed there.
Bringing his character back would be the height of stupidity.
Except they are only bringing him back in the VR world.

Speculation: the next arc will be called Darkhold.
You know it occurs to me that AIDA was probably just lying her butt off when she said she was programming the framework based around regrets.
Why do you say that, Grack21?
Well, that is assuming she was corrupted by the Darkhold and the darkhold is a hive artifact, she'd probably just prgram the framework to by happy hydra land. It's all speculation.

Looking at the Darkhold in the comics, unless Blade and vampires who up seems like that could work.
@Nebula1400 Unless its a flashback or something similar my tolerance for Ward is nil. He's worn out his welcome with me.
Ward is definitely back. Marvel Ent's twitter account just tweeted a short video of Brett Dalton reading an AOS script.
Yes Mo and Jed just confirmed he's back in an interview.
I wonder if Daisy didn't kind of insert Ward in the position of boyfriend in her head as a subconscious sign the world she was in wasn't real so she could do what she went there for?
Just thinking about all the guest stars whose characters are gone that could make cameos is melting my brain.
Looks like Pod 3 might be called Agents of Hydra
OK, I promise this is the last comment before I go to sleep, anyone catch the date of Simmons death on the tombstone? (I wonder if she faked her own death and is super undercover?)
@AndrewCrossett If Hydra had had the Darkhold they would have rescued Hive and won the world long ago.
I have to admit I don't really understand why Hydra would be in that framework world at all. It's not an alternative universe. It's a fake one, where each person gets to undo their one regret and live out whatever life they think it would have lead too. There shouldn't be any, "oh, if Phil hadn't joined SHIELD then Hydra would still run the world" type consequences. The only reason Hydra would exist in the framework is if Aida made them, because she figured out like with May, people need a conflict to confront in order to believe the framework is real. So... they'll all kind of be in a hell of their own making, even if it seems pretty and happy at first.

Why did someone say six weeks before? Is there a hiatus?
Yes we're off till April 4th.
@JDL - The Darkhold wouldn't necessarily have been a rescue device... more a world domination device that Hive would have used if he hadn't been stuck in the Deeper Well... I mean, Maveth. And Hydra didn't necessarily have the book.

May be off base, but I don't know why else Hydra would be dominant in the Framework. Did May secretly want to be a Hydra agent? Did Daisy secretly want to be with Ward rather than Lincoln?
Since Daisy and Jemma were never scanned and uploaded, their avatars within the framework can only consist of the memories of the other characters who were scanned. So the framework appears to have constructed a Daisy/Ward pairing as a result of the narrative needs of one of the other characters ... Coulson? May? Fitz? Mack seems unlikely. I'm assuming F(ramework)-May was the one who texted F-Daisy, since F-Coulson does not appear to have an agenty job anymore. And Jemma's avatar could have died in the framework to allow F-Fitz to get together with whoever was in the limo.
So - upon reflection.

Nice directorial debut by Jed, some really nice action scenes counterbalanced by terrific emoting by the cast. Ian always delivers the goods, Chloe is strong and Elizabeth Henstridge was terrific. Kudos to VFX crew - the Mack Quakedown was blockbuster movie quality epic

On the downside, I feel a bit cheated - it didn't really deliver a wrap up of the LMD business, just moved it to another playing field. I'm about done with the Russian and Aida, so disappointed they'll be hanging around. The Framework, if you look too closely, doesn't make a lot of sense - given the general confusion about the how's and why's in these comments the writers seem to have had a difficult time tying together disparate elements

It should be fun to see the cast in different roles, but it may have been more fun, and less plot taxing, to do it as a one off / dream sequence than build the last (maybe last) story arc around it
Why is everyone suddenly using the word "pod" to refer to arcs on this show? I never heard the word used in that way until this week, and now I've seen it like 20 times. What's wrong with "arc?"
Its what Jed and the other cast & crew have been saying in interviews.
That episode was in a league of its own. Well done to all concerned.
I want interim webisodes starring Agent Piper and Agent Dichen Lachman's husband.
Haven't posted here in a while but just had to chime in. This episode was brilliant. The Jemma/Daisy stand-off will without a doubt remain in my top Whedonverse moments. Holy banana. Those two. And Jemma already killed me in the Fitz stand-off moments earlier.

The Daisy/Mack fight against the windows lit by fire from behind was wonderful. The whole time I went "who ever directed and wrote this is on fire here" (didn't pay attention to the credits, sadly)... well done Jed!
@IrrationaliTV Agent Davis ? aka Maximilian Osinski ? Never heard of him ! Not a bad idea though.
Ha, I didn't even catch that that was Dichen's husband. It's all connected!
I was wondering why there was focus on Agent Davis. Cool.
I'm on board for my agent Piper and her adventures. That other guy can tag along too.

But yes, this episode was a stand out.
With all this talk of regret...maybe we could see Tripp again? Daisy must feel a set of grief and guilt for him too.
Is his name Davis? In my mind he will always be Agent Dichen Lachman's husband. :)
@Dusk That was one of the crazy cameos I was thinking about.
These violent delights have violent ends . . . .
Wow, that was really one of the show's best ever episodes, and the AU stuff was a total mindfrak. My reaction was "I have no idea what's going on, but I want more of it!" The last pod being all about the Framework is exactly what I was hoping for (I left comments last week about it) and this is all I wanted and more. A 7 episode AoS version of The Wish, only more Stepford-wifey? Yes! Give it to me!

And I can see now why Chloe Bennet said the last pod would be very rewarding for fans who have been watching the show from the start...

I guessed that "boyfriend" would be Ward the moment I saw the text message - because why else not refer to him by name or show his face, and that's the kind of twist they'd go for. But "dead" Simmons and Hydra May managed to surprise me. On second thoughts, there's no way Simmons is actually dead, because then there would be barely any Elizabeth Henstridge in the last arc. Maybe she faked her death?

I'm not sure why you guys think that Aida has intentionally brought about every plot development in the Framework. Maintaining a fictional universe must be difficult and there are probably lots of butterfly effects and unforeseeable developments.

Re: Lincoln - while I don't know if the universe as it stands now has anything to do with Daisy's wishes (She did not get scanned - or does the Framework scan you automatically?), I am sure that Daisy's biggest regret is that Lincoln died because of her. But what you are all forgetting is that Lincoln probably is alive in this AU. He's just not with her. If they had never met, he may still be alive. Probably what she's thought, too. And, well, remember what she said in the last season finale two-parter, while she was a mess of guilt, Hive addiction withdrawal and self-loathing? Coulson: "Daisy, you were brainwashed." Daisy: "So was Ward. We make the perfect pair." (And it wasn't the first time she had compared herself to him, see the scene in episode 3.9.) That statement was not a positive one, it was an 6expression of her self-loathing, but it's still something that was there in her mind.

[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-02-23 10:22 ]
More thoughts about the Framework universe, after the initial shock:

- Simmons must have faked her death. Is she maybe some kind of an anti-Hydra secret operative?
- How come the Inhumans are universally feared, while Hydra is accepted? Either Hydra is really fooling everyone about its true goals, or this Hydra is more of the CA:TWS, Alexander Pearce Hydra. (That would be great. Pierce Hydra was the most interesting and most topical.)
- That text message is actually super creepy... "Wake up your boyfriend"? How does whoever sent it know she's awake and he's sleeping? Unless they are being constantly monitored... which, come to think of it, is probably rxactly what it would be like in a Hydra world - constant surveillance.
- Does Daisy have powers in this universe? Did she get to know her parents? It's hard to know what did or did not get butterflied...
- I wonder if Fitz' girlfriend is someine random, or someone we know. It would be fun if it turned out to be Agnes. (Maybe her regret was that she did not dump Radcliffe long time ago.) It would kind of pay off the weird Aida/Fitz vibes earlier in the season.

NYPinTA: Of all the theories about Framework Ward, that one strikes me as by far the least likely. If Daisy wanted to insert something that doesn't fit into the AU just to know it's not real, there are hundreds of random things she could have inserted, which would not be traumatic. I find it completely unbelievable that she would make Ward her boyfriend for such a banal reason, when all her memories and everything connected to Ward is so painful.

[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-02-23 11:20 ]
Also, now I can officially say that all the main cast minus Adrienne Palicki, Nick Blood and Luke Mitchell, plus this season's main recurring players, Jason O'Mara and Mallory Jansen, and a few other actors, have played more than one character on the show.
Oh and just one more thing... remember when I joked earlier in the season that the show just doesn't know how to quit Hydra? Boy, was I right or what? LMAO
I just read an interview with Jed and Maurissa where they pretty much confirm that this is an alternate reality where Hydra won. They also made it clear that this is going to be their commentary on the current state of things in the world... which made me roll my eyes, but I have to trust they'll find a compelling way to tell that story that doesn't come across as hippie street theater.

But a world where Hydra is in charge wouldn't necessarily look like a Third Reich nightmare, with people being loaded into cattle cars and secret police in trenchcoats glaring from every street corner. Today's successful authoritarian states don't operate by brute-forcing people into compliance... they keep up the illusion of freedom, but manipulate the people into wanting the same things they want and discounting that which goes against their own interests.

I don't know if Daisy and Simmons got placed into scenarios that were programmed for them, or if they're creating everything themselves based on their subconscious wants. If so, then Daisy must want to see how things could have gone with Ward.

I assume everyone is in the same shared reality, and not in their own individual timelines. I was wondering whether the Fitz-in-limo scene was actually Jemma's scenario rather than his.
Its a shared reality. Aida had to reset it to log in the 4 guys so May's reality changed from saving the girl to Hydra once the other 4 regrets were changed.
So I've given this a bit more thought, and here is a scenario I can see as plausible:

In this reality, the Hydra takeover may have happened in a more peaceful way. The events of Captain America: TWS only happened because of Cap's actions. Maybe in this reality, without Coulson, the Avengers did not get to band together in time, and the crisis was actually resolved by the bombing of New York (this is not my idea, someone on Youtube brought up the bombing). Maybe the Avengers died, or at least Cap did, and never got to foil Pierce's plans.

So in this scenario, there may not have been a big Hydra/SHIELD showdown - they were practically the same organization for decades, and SHIELD just grew into Hydra. (There would probably be dissenters, but they could get quietly disposed of.) And neither organization got the reputation of terrorist organization in the public - instead, SHydra is publicly accepted.

Now, how would that happen? The easiest answer is, because the public got terrified of a serious threat from people who represent "otherness" - Inhumans (and aliens) and SHydra convinced them that tighter security is needed and that it can provide it. (This would of course be incredibly ironic considering the goal for which Hydra was founded, but that was a secret kept even from many of the Hydra members.) That would fit with TWS, which was an obvious commentary on US security policy in the 2000s.

And now we get to something that I think no one has mentioned: how May's AU Bahrain scenario may have changed things. When that was shown in "Wake Up", I was bothered because saving Katya is not a happy ending, unless you change Katya. She was the one who was incredibly dangerous and insane, not her mother. So maybe little (not so little now, several years later) Katya has wreaked all sort of havoc across the world and is the main reason people are so terrified of Inhumans.

Daisy may not have powers in this reality, if she has not come into contact with Terrigen crystals or met her biological mother. She may or may not know her birth name. In any case, Skye/Daisy was, in normal reality, originally investigating SHIELD to find out about her origin and her parents, and that's how she got their attention. Rewatching season 1, I was struck by how important Ward was in those early episodes for her growing closer to SHIELD (ironically enough) and away from the Rising Tide. It was second in importance only to the father/daughter relationship she immediately developed with Coulson. She has also admitted that a large part of the draw of SHIELD was that it was the only family she has ever had, and in episode 3.9 she said she could understand how Ward similarly needed a strong father figure (which he found in Garrett) and even how Garrett could draw him into Hydra, because she was fooled by her mother for a while.

With all that in mind, it's not that hard to imagine her becoming a part of SHydra, with May as a strong mother figure and Ward as boyfriend. This is, of course, a reality where Ward was not a double agent in the team, since without Coulson's resurrection he had no reason to be (and Garrett may be dead, because he never got the "Jesus juice"), so there's no personal betrayal or finding dead bodies of strangled agents. And, considering how much and how obviously she was into Ward from the start, the only reason they were not together in mid-season 1 was because Ward was keeping his distance in order to be focused on the mission Garrett had given him, and opted for sleeping with May for tactical reasons (something he also wouldn't need to do in the AU).

Fitz is a little less clear, since we don't know what his exact regret was, as opposed to Coulson, May or Mack. But it's possible that Radcliffe designed a reality where he actually knew Fitz from an early age and was his father figure, both because he wanted it and because he thought it was what Fitz needed. Radcliffe's influence may have made Fitz a lot more confident and successful, but also lot less ethical.

And I don't know what happened to Simmons, but I'm sticking with "she faked her death" until proven otherwise. I would be surprised if we did not see Liz Henstridge in any of the Framework scenes.
I keep thinking about the idea that it's an alternate reality and at first it didn't make any sense to me. Because Aida created it. It was just a programmed world she made. So there really wasn't any reason Hydra would be something she'd insert. But as more people are inserted with their memories and regrets scanned, she must be adding details based on them. But then I remembered the Darkhold book and wonder if it's possible that it's both a programmed world AND an actual alternate reality that Aida sorta punched through to using the framework. So in a sense, they really are alive in the bodies of who they would have been in that reality. (Think evil Kirk. Or Pete's World if you're a Doctor Who fan.) So what they do will effect an actual person in that reality once they leave too. (But I doubt they'll care about that.) That would be interesting. An explain the fullness of the world she was able to create.

Just had to mention, I don't think it was a text Daisy got about waking Ward as a reminder she set on her phone.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2017-02-23 17:47 ]
@NYPinTA: Hm, that's possible, I guess. It just never occurred to me since it just seems odd someone would 1) leave themselves reminders talking to oneself in the 2nd person and 2) refer in them to their boyfriend as "your boyfriend" rather than by name. And how does she know they are being "called in"? If it'a scheduled thing, wouldn't you just set the alarm clock?
I think you might be replying to something I edited...? I started to say it might have just been someone, (like May), calling them in for a case because they'll both probably still be agents of SHIELD. So it'd be like on shows with cops when they're out on a date or whatever and they get a call because there's been a murder so they leave to go to the crime scene. If May is their boss and she knows they're together, she also probably knows their schedule or had just sent them home from a previous case, so she just assumed Ward would be sleeping, so she's being a bit snarky with her message, saying basically, "get your boy and get your ass in here" but much more politely.
@NYPinTA: I was replying to this: "Just had to mention, I don't think it was a text Daisy got about waking Ward as a reminder she set on her phone."

It just seems much more likely that it's May or someone else texting.

" I started to say it might have just been someone, (like May), calling them in for a case because they'll both probably still be agents of SHIELD."

Correction - they'll both probably be agents of Hydra, especially if May is their boss, since we saw her standing in the Traskelion with the Hydra logo. But then my theory I outlined above is that SHIELD and Hydra are basically one and the same as Hydra more quietly and 'peacefully' took over, which is why I'm calling it SHydra.
If Hydra is trying to present itself as good guys in this reality, they really should adopt a less evil looking logo.
@Andrew Crossett: Eh, most real life emblems feature predatory animals. Why is an octopus worse than an eagle or a lion? :)
Looking at the shot of Jemma's gravestone, it says she died on 8 November (year can't be seen, except that it'a 2000something). That gives narrows down somewhat the period when she died (or "died"). AoS episodes seem to roughly correspond to real life time, and F.Z.Z.T. aired on 5 November 2013, so are we to think she died then? But then if she really died and it was then, I don't seem how she could get into the Franework if all she has as avatar is a rotten corpse in a coffin. Or if it's not that, then it could be 8 November 2014, 2015 or 2016, but the Framework events would be different than real life events at those times.
@TimeTravellingBunny I also think that its 2013. That's what it looked like on an enlarged gif I looked
at today. If that's the case then I think it quite possible that Framework Daisy has not gone through
Terrigenesis. If so you have to wonder how the word got out about Inhumans (per Coulson on the blackboard).

FWIW if Ward addresses Daisy as Skye we'll know right away.

[ edited by JDL on 2017-02-24 23:21 ]
@JDL Do you mean that it's 2013 in the AU? I think it's 2017. She just died (or "died") in 2013.

I just think Daisy may not gone through terrigenesis in the AU because events were so different in the AU. But there had already been Inhumans with powers out in the world before, like Katya and her mother, and possibly others that did not stay in Afterlife, plus there are characters like the Royal Family who are going to be in the new Inhumans TV show, and they could also be around in the Framework. Other people may have also gone through terrigenesis in some different way. There are still plenty of people in the "real world" who did not go througj terrigenesis in season 3 (not everyone likes fish oil), like Shockley. She could be one of those in the Framework that haven't gone through it.

Or she could have gone through it after some other events happened. We'll know in April. I kind of want her to not have powers there because it would force her to solve things in old school ways. I don't know if they will want to leave the show's superheroine without powers for long chunks of time,
@TimeTravellingBunny Right ! I agree that in the Framework its 2017. Imo Framework Jemma died in 2013 (Fzzt possibly, a Nov episode).
The thing about Inhumans was that until Daisy dumped all those crystals in the ocean there was no public knowledge that they existed as a
people. Outside of certain parts of Hydra there was only knowledge of a few dead enhanced individuals with nothing much known about their

But if Jemma died in 2013 and Daisy never underwent Terrigenesis how does anyone know about the Inhumans ? Hydra leaders are the only
people who knew and I just can't see them blabbing. One other thing; the building May was in was the SHIELD Triskellion from CA:TWS.
It did occur to me that the Inhumans mention might refer to the Royal Family somehow. A subtle set-up for the new tv show?
Craziest theory (they won't do this and I'm not sure I'd want them to, although it would free AoS, Inhumans, and any future ABC Marvel spin-off from worrying about what's going on in the big screen MCU movies from now on)...

Folks have brought up the idea that (perhaps unbeknowest to Aida), The Framework is actually a real alternate reality unto itself that has been tapped into from "our" world (maybe due to Darkhold influence on Aida). The royal family Inhumans are mentioned or very subtly hinted at, maybe. Daisy, Jemma, and the rest are forever trapped there and take over the lives of their alternate reality selves, even if their original bodies die under Aida's care. Jemma and Daisy (or Skye) are the only ones who ever suspect that anything was ever different for them. The rest, including Radcliffe and Agnes and Coulson and team, remain blissfully unaware unless Jemma and Skye/Daisy try to convince them otherwise. Adventures continue in this new world. World-scale crossovers can happen with Inhumans series eventually without worrying about how they aren't being mentioned in any of the Avengers films or Netflix shows.

Sorta works in that it mirrors the fact that Marvel comics have done this sort of thing in the past and even had longrunning comic book series that originated in the main universe and were splintered off into alternate timelines. And the Marvel properties are already broken up anyway on screen, given that Fox has the X-Men/mutant franchise.

I dunno, though...I feel like this would just sorta waste what was built in the original MCU AoS universe with this SHIELD team. It would also leave a huge thread hanging (Aida as a threat in the original reality), unless one of the Netflix shows or a film were to deal with her.

[ edited by Kris on 2017-02-26 02:31 ]

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