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April 15 2004

(SPOILER) Kristin's heart breaks for Angel fans. Includes touching quotes from James & Amy, hints about the finale, info about guest stars & future movie possibilities.

Also, the column ends with the news that the WB will review Wonderfalls for consideration in its fall lineup. So those of us who've memorized Jordan Levin's address - time to mail those chotchkes.

If they can somehow get SIX 2 hour movie event next year, that's basically half a season. I could live with that. I'd also love to see Wonderfalls make it to WB, but this begs the question of if they can pick up Wonderfalls, why not Angel instead?

Also nice to hear the actors talk about the effort, but I think Kristin is really trying to tell us that there's nothing we can do to change anybody's mind. Man, what the heck am I going to watch on TV next year? :(
This really isn't new news. That poster on the WB, SteelDog, was saying today that nobody bit from the networks and that the cast and crew are moving on. He/she did leave one ray of hope, Levin could grow a brain and change his right its hopeless. :(
That's promising news about Wonderfalls. I'm crossing fingers!
I think the idea of movies is wonderful - I did enjoy the B5 movies that came along after. But really, the chances of it happening seem so very slim. Primarily, I would imagine the actors are all going to get other jobs that may well preclude their participation. ;/
I normally avoid anything possibly spoilerish like the plague but I couldn't resist finding out what James and Amy had to say. It was excellent to hear everything they said. It was nice to hear how much they appreciate the fans efforts. I'm very sad for Amy because she seems to be the one having the hardest time dealing with the end. I was happy to hear that there is a major possibility for a bunch of movies (and frankly, with the way things have been going at The WB ratings wise, they probably will need the boost an Angel/Buffy movie could bring after several of their shows flop).

Screw UPN with their not wanting "scraps". Buffy not only put The WB on the map it also gave UPN an identity and to now refer to it and Angel as scraps really pisses me off.

If the WB takes on Wonderfalls and actually comes through with the Angel/Buffy movies, they will redeem themselves in my eyes (not a lot but at least a little bit). The prospect of six Angel/Buffy movies and the possibility of a bigger budget for them is very exciting.
hmm they make the finale seem interesting.........and the whole bit about the tv movies sound good although its the same thing they have always been saying..........i liked the comment from JM about the buffy movie for the future.......makes me think it really will happen.
I'm more interested in James' comment about the possibility of a Buffy feature film. I really would rather save all future Buffy/Angel plots for the big screen. I think Joss Whedon needs to swear off television altogether and pursue his movie career. Based on the current state of television, I don't think the medium deserves a Joss Whedon show.
yeah definately, a buffy movie interests me way more, they can do more with that.........................heck, maybe we could get more than one movie :)!
Don't count on the made for TV movie deal - cause the question becomes 2 fold - one where would they put it and do you really think the way the WB treated the last few years of Angel they would do anything supportive now - don't count on it. Secondly, Joss's comment when this was mentioned back when they first canceled the show, "I hope everyone is to busy doing something else." Why even give them that I have heard that tune played before so many times it's not even funny (it's a standard line with genre shows that have a loyal fan base - to try to appease the fans - that's it), only to find out it's a huge lie. They can't afford to buy one Angel film let alone six - it's a cruel joke and someone should tell them it's not the least bit funny. There is no room on the schedule for made for tv movies - esspecially since they just announced they will be adding an American Idol rip off series to their line-up now. I wish Wonderfalls the best but I have to say if it goes to the WB at this point, I wont even bother Tivo-ing it - nothing against the show but it's not going to last in the WB's current environment and I don't feel like wasting time becoming attached to another show that will get the hook after half a season. I'll download an episodes availible or wait for the DVD but I won't watch it on the WB. For that matter I wont be watching anything on the WB cause their is no must see TV left in the broadcast areana.
I think a feature film is doubtful. For one SMG hasn't seemed anything but enthusiastic. DB has stated he doesn't like reunions. Plus, if everybody moves on, it would be difficult for everyone to come together for a feature or TV movie.

Not to mention that the WB has already been dishonest about Angel (Levin statment about Angel living along side Dark Shadows). So to think they would support a TV movie is remote at best.

I think based on what JW has said, our best bet to continue the Whedonverse is a new spinoff after Firelfly. Several people from ME and Joss himself have mentioned a spinoff. That to me is the most likely scenario.
I take anything James Marsters says with a grain of salt, concidering past comments he's made about the shows and his character development, I think it's more wishful thinking on his part than anything else.
In a recent interview with SMG she implied that she could be open for a Buffy movie. In her conversation she discussed having had a conversation with Joss regarding the Angel finale and how it didn't work out but it is very possible that they had a conversation then and discussed a Buffy movie. Joss has also hinted in a recent interview that something was up. So maybe there won't be any movies happening at the WB but something even better. I also get the impression that the studio doing the Firefly movie pursued Joss and maybe they have talked about other "projects" with him as well.

The success of the Firefly dvd sales is what helped make it possible for it to go to the big screen and Buffy and Angel dvds sell just as well in not better.
yeah i have read the recent comments from SMG and she did show interest in doing a big screen movie........she said she does miss the show itself.........i think that is a good sign......
Also, this is coming from Wanda's sources. Love the woman, she's a great fan, but her sources don't always pan out. ( No more Spikey. Someone hold me)
I wouldn't count on it to much, big screen or otherwise, at least not with the current cast of Buffyverse characters, when Joss finishes Firefly, he still has plans to make Ripper for the BBC (if they are still interested)(he had already written an outline for it back in July, according to ASH) but I think if the Buffyverse returned to the big screen or small in the US it might be based on Fray instead of Angel or Buffy.
I think in a year's time all of the actors will be begging Joss to do a Buffy or Angel movie. After the (crossing my fingers) success of 'Serenity', I'm sure there will be plenty of interest in a movie about the Buffyverse. Television has given up on genre fans, it's time we invest our time in a more prestigious medium like film.
If Serenity is successful, I think a BtVS and/or AtS feature film will be more than likely.

As for TV movies, I don't see them as all that likely to happen, but I don't want to completely disregard them yet.
I think Joss is such a work-a-holic that he'd have time to do Serenity (and hopefully a back to TV series or sequel to the movie) a Buffy movie, a Ripper series and a Fray series if he wanted to. He was doing Buffy, Angel and Firefly all at the same time and working on the Fray comics. Afterall, he is a God!

And RavenU - thanks for that bit of news about the Ripper outline and it coming from ASH. A lot of us were speculating on a post not too long ago about wanting the Ripper series to finally happen and that is a major indication that it is still in the works. Buffy movies and Fray series aside 'cause that's just all speculation, a Ripper series is something to really get excited about along with Serenity too!
Also - if Joss makes them (any of the speculations) I will watch! And I don't care if it's big screen, little screen or dvds!
Film may historically be a more "prestigious" medium than tv but I'd argue that today that isn't the case. Most feature films out there are paint-by-numbers. Sopranos and other cable offerings beat the pants off of what's in the multiplexes. Partly this is due to quality writing/directing/acting and partly it's due to the luxury that long-running tv series have of developing the equivalent of a sprawling, complex mega-novel.

I'm a huge movies buff but I've got to take my hat off to the folks who make extraordinary episodic television. Buffy's run was 144 hours, which is the equivalent of 50 feature films. And not just 50 feature films, but 50 intelligent, interlocking, complexly self-referencing feature films. To my mind there's no way a two hour Buffy/Angel film would compare. Although I wouldn't mind the chance to be proved wrong!

In my dream world I want Joss to do tv. But I'll take anything from Joss that I can get at this point.

It did my heart good to read such a nice testimonial from Kristin to Angel fans. Sad, though. So sad. Nice to read the things Amy and James said.
yeah theres no comparison to a movie and 7 seasons........but movies can do a lot more than tv......i think it would be neat to see what they could come up with for a buffy movie.....
Darn right, norman. I'd be fighting to be first in line at any Whedonverse movie.

Is anyone else feeling a renewed resentment towards this Dark Shadows redux thing? I know that it's not the DS creators' personal fault that Angel has been tossed aside, but geez, the way Kristin put it.....she made it clear that Angel was specifically thrown over for DS. Oh, would that the DS creators had gone the three witches route instead. Then we'd have a forlon few posting about the imminent passing of Phoebe's boobs from their tv screens rather than this tragedy.

Urgh. The nasty, petty side of me (a drop of demon blood from the misty past perhaps?) makes me want DS to fail, horribly, so that Levin and his cronies are proven wrong about DS's "hugeness." Blech. I spit on DS! I crush DS under my heel!

(Yes, I know, that last bit sounds crazy. It's just melodrama, people. I've got to get out the rage and disappointment somehow).
norman, I diagree...I believe TV can do a lot more than movies, even if there are more constraints (whereas a feature film only has to be of a "reasonable length").

Of course, a movie does have the advantage of having a bigger budget, but over the past eight years we've seen Joss improve at using his budget, and prove that a high budget is not necessary to creative some of the best hours of entertainment ever.
If the Dark Shadows creators had gone the three witches route instead, I still don't think the WB would have canned Charmed. Charmed is a cornersone of their network! (sarcasm)

The possibility of a big screen Buffy/Angel movie reminds me of The X-Files. I was a big X-Files fan and when the movie came out it blew me away. I swear it felt longer than 2 hours and it did not disappoint me. The only thing that disappoints me is that there were no more movies like they had promised.

I think a Buffy/Angel movie is a great idea but if they are going to do it I don't think they should wait too long. I'm hoping Joss can do both a spinoff and a movie. I would be devastated if the 'verse ends with the final episode of Angel.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-04-16 08:37 ]
I thought my day couldn't get any worse (tax day anyone?) but Kristin (or Wanda), or whatever her name is these days, managed to make it hit a new low on the depression scale (at least for a little while).

I have to agree that the WB is trying to put something over on the cast and crew, giving them (and us) false hope about TV movies when we're 99-44/100% sure that the WB doesn't have any intention of doing so.

I'm sure many people will disagree with me (and many have already) but I think we shouldn't stop the worthwhile efforts that are going on (i.e. blood drives). And, those of us who can afford it and would just spend it on expendable items anyway should continue to write post cards (seems like a good hobby to me). The only way we can get something (whatever form it may take) for the future is to continue to make at least some consistent noise. Articles like this one are likely to squelch that effort. I'm sure the only healthy way for the cast and crew is to move on, but the fans don't have to yet--it's only been two months (wow, it seems like a year!) since the cancellation was announced--I think it's too soon to stop making some noise.
I'm swinging back to my pessimistic side again it seems but you know even though I want Angel back for one more season - in a way I'm glad it's not with all the changes going on with new FCC regulations being handed down it seems everyday for language, nudity, sex, and violence on TV. Perhaps this is the best time to leave broadcast TV, cause next season looks to be the ulimate boring bombshell of shows with so many levels of censorship hoops to go through. The verse has always been on the cutting edge of some now heated censorship debates, next year who knows what kind of white bread PC stuff is going to air until someone gets the bee out of the FCC's behind and they realize that a boob is sometimes just a boob or Jordan Levin.
Angel fans are going to go down in genre TV history as 'the people that wouldn't go away', and I think that's something to be proud of. The WB can cut off our show at the knees, but they can't shut us up about the injustice of it. Even if this is the end of Angel as we now know it, nothing can kill this fandom but apathy. And have you noticed how apathetic most Whedonverse fans aren't?

We've all had a taste of TV paradise these past 8 years, and it's hard being kicked out of the garden before we're ready to go, when there are still succulent fruits hanging just beyond our reach in the trees (I wax a little poetic in my sadness). But we're going to stay hungry out here, and we're not going away because we know what's possible with the medium. Eventually I think JW will be along with something else to tempt and delight us; we just have to wait out the idiots who are currently guarding the gates.

And movies, both big and small screen? Exciting to me. Very, very. Angel, Buffy, Ripper, Fray, Firefly, whatever. If ME makes it, I will watch it, like the helplessly addicted little interweb fanling Joss-ho that I am. Hee!
RavenU - >>There is no room on the schedule for made for tv movies<<

didn't the wb have commit to airing a new telemovie every week for next season?

they could easily slot in an angel telemovie every now and again - and that would be wise to do so, at least they have a guaranteed audience

but up to 6 telemovies?

that's half a season anyway... why not just give us a 13 episode season and let the show finish off before or after christmas

[ edited by aapac on 2004-04-16 07:06 ]
"If the Dark Shadows creators..." Can you really call them creators when it's a remake that's already been remade? Developers, maybe.
Question, how come everyone wants Sarah Michelle Gellar to come back, but not Charisma Carpenter. That's who I want back soooo badly. Though the show is really good, I need my Cordy. The show just isn't a show without her snappy comebacks. I've heard so much about SMG, but nothing about CC and I know Joss can find a way to bring her back (I mean really, Angel just took her death without questions from the EVIL LAW FIRM, did he actually see the body? Something just isn't right here. Did they even have a funeral?). That's all I have to say. I know it's not going to happen, but I need my Cordy fix before the year is out.
electricspacegirl..........................a second x-files movie is being written as we speak........david duchovny already said he is on board..........x-files is on of my favorites as well.....
ohh, and i think charisma coming back would be stupid.......cordy is dead, and i think its best to leave her that way.........
aapac - they have said a lot of things (like Angel and DS could co-exsist)- yes including the made for tv movies - but they have since back pedaled on that statement suggesting the cost may be to much for the potentially small return on investment and if they did go ahead I'm sure they would all be from Warner Brothers production (cheaper from the family - thus ruling out Angel from FOX - for which they have constantly balked at the price). However, after the few failed attempts they made at airing movies adapted to tv (mostly WB movies BTW) this season, it's likely that idea has been scrapped - guess we'll find out in May.
I know it would be stupid norman, I just really miss the character...and even though I've accepted the demise of Angel, I haven't accepted my favourite character's death. I know that is extremely sad, I just loved her wit and her attitude towards the whole situation of it all.
Question, how come everyone wants Sarah Michelle Gellar to come back, but not Charisma Carpenter.

Because Cordy was given a good death. And not everyone wants SMG back.

Angel just took her death without questions from the EVIL LAW FIRM, did he actually see the body? Something just isn't right here.

What did W&H have to do with her death? She was at a hospital, not at W&H, to my understanding. She may have been at the hospital on W&H's tab, but I'm pretty sure it was just a hospital.

I think it's very petty of me, but I also hope DS tanks horribly. Then I hope this wave of nauseous reality crap falls into oblivion. Then I hope the WB does a Buffy/Angel tv movie and it gets rave reviews and since FOX and UPN are also suffering from slumping reality tv, all three networks vie for the rights to the revival of the Angel the series! Yes, this is my dream.....this is my world.....And in my world, we are beltless.

BTW, James and Amy sounded *gasp* upset over the end of the show. Maybe it's just me, but I kind of picture David doing a happy dance behind Amy while she cries.....but maybe I'm just bitter that the actual STAR of the series shows less concern for the end than two late-comers....
yeah DB seems not to upset, i mean, i guess it could be a relief, but in a few years he will probably miss it like SMG is................and some people do want SMG back :)
Well I gotta say, first Joss' comments earlier on the radio, and now James and Amy..... it feels good. They're sad the show is ending, but they're coping. But they LOVED the show and will miss it and the people they worked with. They are aware of the fan effort and greatly appreciate it. That it managed to console them as well is very gratifying. It's all just very nice to hear. Still was a bit sour over DB's 'glad that's over' reaction.

So perhaps the TV movie thing could be legit. That's good news. I'd love to see that. And frankly it could be either Angel or Buffy or both. There's a whole slew of characters in the 'verse and several have been on both shows so they could technically come up with a blended roster. Probably not, but still...

Well, no SMG, but I knew that one. Too bad. Didn't work out, no one's too blame. Everyone was willing. No Dawn is fine with me, since she has no connection to AtS anyway. But no Willow? Dang, I was still holding out hope over that one. Don't suppose there's a shade of hope for Faith? Nah, Tru is calling.....grnf.

But it's okay, it would've been cool but none of them were 'necessary'. They got plenty of characters that belong to the show that need their time to shine. A 'Joss ending'.... Bring it on.
Would someone be so kind as to summarize this article minus the spoilers? I'd like to know what it says, but don't want to read the spoilers.
Hi there, usual long term lurker - first time poster disclaimer. I'm a Southern Hemisphere Whedon fan in, erm, the "house" or possibly "hizzle", and I've also been highly dependant upon my black market Buffy distribution network (which is wrong, evil, and we all atone for it by watching the adverts when the show finally gets here...twice) for the last couple of years.

Invisible Greeen - nice point. I'd never thought of it like that, but I think season 5 has done a lot more with a lot less that season 4. I'm reminded of an idea I learned about in some form of school once - that limits can lead to better results through mental 'funnelling'. Mind you, the person was talking about the sonnet, but it probably works from a capitalist perspective as well.

Wendy - that article was essentially James saying "It's over" - apparently a direct quote, and he seems to find the fact "a shock" and somewhat incredible. Also Amy Acker feels sad for the people who put their durndest into the Save Angel campaigns, what with the getting no appreciable results and everything. Plus, Kristen the E! person gets lots of emails asking her if this horror can possibly be true.

Later, or seeing as I'm in the premiere timezone, earlier,

From RavenU - "when Joss finishes Firefly, he still has plans to make Ripper for the BBC (if they are still interested)(he had already written an outline for it back in July, according to ASH"

Are you sure you've got your facts right here? According to ASH, 3-4 outline Ripper scripts were already written by Joss and Jane Espenson in 2002, long before last July and a year after the open contract was first signed between Joss and the BBC. Click the Ripper link on the very site we're on and look at the November (2002) posting. Or has Joss maybe come up with a new outline last July? Seems unlikely, but...
What this article does bring home is that if nothing else the cast and crew know there are people out here that really, really care for them. If you are an actor you must always know that no matter how good the role you must move on. So let's hope they all get what we feel they deserve. For James I'd like to see him as Harry/Erich in the Dresden Files and since that pilot is scheduled for this fall maybe his non-Spike hair will be ready for him to take the lead :) Charisma already has a sitcom though God help us not on a network you can count on. David has had some film work and I'm sure he'll get more. And the rest of the boys and girls ? Please, please let the industry be kind.
You are absolutely right Cousine...These actors have got to be feeling the LOVE we have for them. I do hope they all get great roles in the future. For James , the Dresden series sounds awesome and I pray he gets it, but the sentimental part of me hopes that the prospect of Buffy movies is for real. I can only hope that Spike will return again if these movies happen. James has said he would reprise the role so who knows. I think it will depend on when these films are done. That said...I hope the Angel finale is VERY Spike has to survive, and I hope they will leave some of the present storylines open as well because they would make excellent material for further development in a film. Keeping my fingers crossed that this isn't WB b******t.
To be honest the way the WB is heading, thanks to the genius Jordan Levin, I'm glad Angel will not be associated with the network. In a gallant effort to get rid of creative talent all together the WB will be premiering a show called Superstar USA which will find the worst singer ever, make them believe they are talented, give them fake fans then to make the humiliation less give them $100,000 at the end. Yeah but let's cancel Angel....idiots...

I hate to blame a show for a network's stupidity but I will not be watching DS. It was nice to hear from JM and AA. I don't know if I believe the WB about movie of the week possiblities but in all this I'm glad to see Angel go out in style...
I'm not sure how I'd feel about a big screen Buffy or Angel movie. I'd be thrilled, of course, but I'm wary of it. I never watched X-Files or its movie, so I'm not sure how they did this there, but I can't help wondering how they could do a Buffy or Angel movie. They wouldn't be able to sell it without the promise that it would appeal to more than just people who were already fans of the show. But to make the movie viewable for people who haven't seen the show, would it lessen the quality? This is what I wonder about. I mean, I know Joss is writing Serenity so that people who never saw Firefly can still watch it--which is considerably easier, I think, with a show that only had one season. I just worry that to do that with Buffy or Angel would mean a chop in quality for those of us who have watched the shows.
" the end of it, to see everyone really going out of their way to try to save it, it just feels really, really good. So, big warm vampire fuzzies over here. It really took the sting out of getting canceled."

That just warmed the bitterly darkened chambers of my broken heart.

Here's a programming idea-- Jordan Levin does a crossover with The Apprentice (which I've never seen, thank you very much) and the Donald delivers the knife blade verdict courtesy of all Angel fans: "You're fired!"
Well this news certainly made my heart break. But I saw this coming. It was great hearing JM's and AA's comments on the cancellation. I feel sorry for Amy. She seems to be taking the cancellation of the show pretty hard. My heart goes out to her. It was nice seeing that James and Amy as well as the rest of the cast/crew appreciate the fans efforts on trying to save the show. It seems like James is ready to move on. I can't wait to see him in some movies and up on the big screen. Even though it seems pretty unlikely we'll get a Season 6 the major possibility of there being 6 Buffy/Angel movies sounds pretty good to me. That's equilevant to half (12) episodes of a season. I really hope that happens. That way they can wrap things up nicely and the show will go out with a bang. I'm quite sure SMG will be on board since she's talked to Joss about it and she said "never say never". She said she's willing to reprise the role of Buffy again. So that's good news. I'll be happy if we get 6 Buffy/Angel movies as well as a spinoff. It's better than nothing. I really wanted a 6th season but I seriously doubt we'll be getting that. I feel ALOT better after thinking about this.
Big warm vampire fuzzies? Right back atcha, babe! Yes, it's a bittersweet way to go, but I'm so glad the cast/crew have gotten something out of all our efforts. And whether the publicity translates into tv or big screen movies sometime down the road, it won't have been for naught.

And yes, I'm right there with the pettiness: I want Dark Shadows to go down in flames! I want DS to be an even bigger embarrassment than Tarzan was for the WB. You'll be sorry, Jordan Levin, you heartless creep!
punkinpuss - as soon as Angel is over I frankly would like to say I will never tune in to "that" station again. And I too wish for DS to not only fail, but fail miserably. However, I just wonder how many of us, feeling woefully deprived next fall, might be tempted to "peek", just to see if it is worth watching. Hmmmm. Gonna be a matter of principal vs neediness.
Why is it that this didn't feel so much like news to me as final confirmation that Angel was over this year? Maybe because i didn't have any faith in the WB's ability to see they had made a mistake no matter how hard we fought, yeah that is probably it!

Dark Shadows will be a bust, i mean seriously, who is going to watch it? The only potential audience it had, namely us, has been alienated by cancelling Angel. I think Dark Shadows now will make Tarzan look like a massive hit.

Just to pick up a point that Weatherby made concerning any potential big screen movie, i do take your point about being wary of it's quality but quite honestly i would rather take a chance and see it get made than it not be made and never know how fantastic it could have been. I mean, this is Joss and the slayerverse, isn't gonna totally suck now is it!

Anyway, here is where the fight for the next show begins people. Let's let Joss know that we will be there for whatever new slayerverse show he chooses to pursue. Bad enough that we will be without a Whedon vamp series next year, let's make sure that it will be no longer than that.
I agree Technopagan. As we all sit and cry in our beers (and God I HATE watered down beer), it's important to remember to keep up the support for the Jossverse in general. ANYTHING he has a hand in will probably be worth watching, be it a TV series, TV movie, big screen movie, whatever. Joss is going to be around for a long time, I believe genius like that will not fade, but let's keep him pumped!
A few years ago, back when Buffy, Angel, and the X-Files were all on the air, and Alias was at the top of its game, and the West Wing still had Sorkin, and the Sorpranos and Six Feet Under were critically acclaimed, I truly believed that television had surpassed film as an artistic medium. At the time, the movie industry had pretty much produced nothing but watered-down dramas, unfunny comedies, and no-plot action flicks. The only reason I went to the movies was for the popcorn (damn, movie popcorn is so good). And, everytime I watched a movie all I could think about was how much better BTVS or AtS was compared to these big-budget flicks. Anyway, today with the reality craze I think the situation is much different.

It is for this reason that I think Joss Whedon's universe should be told in a medium that might still be interested in quality storytelling. What I find ironic is that Joss left the movies because the industry didn't give him (or many other talented writers) the respect they found on television. Now it seems there is no love (or need) for quality writing in TV land. And, so Joss (and it appears Chris Carter) are returning to film.

I know a lot of people are wary about the potential success of a Buffy/Angel movie, but I truly believe that done right this universe could become a very successful franchise. The first X-Files movie was a success and it was done in such a way that still rang true to the TV show without "alien"-ating any new viewers.
So I'm wondering - how do we balance our hatred of the WB with the fact that they might pick up Wonderfalls? I know it's a long shot for pick-up, but still: for those of you who are determined to boycott the WB, would that extend to Wonderfalls as well, or would you make an exception? Or is this a kind of Sophie's choice none of us want to consider right now?

(I don't have the WB, and don't know what I would do.)
Well as a UK viewer boycotting the WB is not an option for me personally. Should they decide to make a correct decision for once and give Wonderfalls a chance (and i honestly think there is more chance of them giving the go ahead for a Kennedy the Vampire Slayer spinoff!) then that would at least allow it to continue and hopefully thrive during a quality genre show lite season.

If, and i do mean a honking big if, that were to occur then i would not recommend spiting yourself to spite the WB. Currently they have nothing beyond Angel even worth an hour of my time if i lived Stateside but i would not miss out on an opportunity to see Wonderfalls continue even if that meant a deal with the devil that is Levin.
Ok I'll risk a mob of fans running after me with torches but I'm not going to be boycotting the WB. I don't have a Nielsen box and I don't have Tivo. I like some of the other shows on the WB (Smallville, Everwood) but it will probably cease to be the main network that I watch. I am angry with the network for cancelling Angel before its time but boycotting the WB is not going to send them a message, and I might miss out on some quality programming.

If Wonderfalls moves to the WB I will watch it. I will check out Dark Shadows and watch it if it's good. I just don't see why I should miss out on good TV just for spite. I do however hope Levin gets fired.

If I were to boycott all the networks that cancelled shows I loved I would not be watching NBC because they cancelled Freaks and Geeks, Fox because they cancelled Tribeca (does anyone else remember that show?) and Firefly, and now the WB because of the cancellation of Angel. That doesn't leave me a lot of networks to choose from, especially when I can't afford cable.
The thing is, it isn't just the WB doing these things. All the networks are quickly axing quality tv. The best thing we can do is watch stuff that we like or are interested in, and hope for the best because if people who do have Nielson boxes and Tivo stop watching shows they may be interested in because it's on a network they don't like, then possibly the next Joss Whedon like writer or Buffy quality show may not get the chance it deserves.

For example, if the WB had actually been on the map when Buffy aired but had cancelled a show I liked before Buffy started and out of stubborness, even though Buffy interested me, I didn't watch because it was on the WB look what I would've missed out on.
I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship with TV execs. They keep beating me up, and yet, I keep going back.

"Here's Farscape", they say. "Ooooh, this is great!", I say; "On second thought, Farscape is too sci fi", they say, as they pull the plug, and I am left befuddled, "TOO sci fi for SciFi?"

"Here's Angel", they say. "Ooooh, this is great!", I say; "On second thought, Angel isn't working out. Let's try Dark Shadows, instead", they say as they pull the plug, and I am left befuddled, "What the hey? Isn't this the third time you execs have tried this schlocky show?"

"Here's Wonderfalls", they say. "Ooooh, this is great!", I say; "On second thought, we don't know what to do with scripted television anymore, as we've become oversaturated with reality programming. How about a nice, new series called... My Life With Wolves! Where we make ordinary city dwellers live in the woods with WOLVES! It's the ultimate culture shock!", they say as they pull the plug, and I am left befuddled, "Are you tring to convince me to allow my brain to turn into mush? I need my synapses to spark from time to time, and these are the only shows that do it for me! Don't make me even mention what other travesties you've brought against me and my fellow viewers *coughfireflycough* What now!?"

Then they hit me, and tell me to shut up and I end up watching something else that is cool and inventive, only to have the nets yank it away from me again.
I won't be watching the WB much anymore after Angel goes because they just won't have anything on that I want to watch. I remember the days when it was the main network I watched - Buffy, Angel, Felicity - but I never liked Gilmore Girls or Smallville, so it just won't draw me. And without an appointment show like Angel on, I won't be seeing any promos for other shows, so they won't be able to pique my interest in them. The only other WB show I occasionally watch now is Everwood. But if they pick up Wonderfalls, I don't think I could stay away.

Dark Shadows, however, holds no interest for me. I think for Dark Shadows to make it, it'll have to draw longstanding fans of Dark Shadows itself. I never watched Buffy or Angel because it was about vampires, and I doubt I am alone in that. But it seems to me that DS already has quick cancellation written all over it, just like Tarzan.
Its a good thing I live beside a library as my reading time is expanding exponentially. Maybe we should boycott TV altogether and go back to books. We could add a new topic where we could discuss worthwhile genre books by literate writers such as Brust, Pratchett, McKinley etc. Writers that have some commonality w JW (wit, wisdom, wonder, wackiness).

There are some interesting series: Vampire (Tanya Huff), Werewolf (Kelley Armstrong), Elves (Steven Brust). Oh dear, I'm blathering. Sorry, I'm a book nerd...

[ edited by redfern on 2004-04-16 21:21 ]
Someone above mentioned that they got the sense that David was standing behind Amy and doing a little dance while she was crying over the end of Angel.

It strikes me as ironically funny that the principle actors in genre (and maybe most) shows that run a while eventually are the ones who are most...resentful(?)...of the show that has the potential to make them stars.

It happened with David D. and X-Files. I mean I had no problem with him wanting to move on, and he was probably correct to bolt when he did since the show (in my opinion) should have ended a couple seasons before it did. BUT, before all that he started bad talking the show itself...I mean honestly, like that's going to endear you with the who are going to be the first ones who give your next movie a chance.

It happened again with SMG and Buffy. All the rumors of the drama that was going on, and the fact that she wanted to leave and be done with it...which again I can relate to. But it still seems to me that she was very...standoffish about the whole thing, like it couldn't end soon enough.

And now with Kristin's article...who do we see defending the show and thanking the fans for all their efforts? Amy and James. Not David. As much as I don't want to feel this way, I just have the littlest feeling that David doesn't...appreciate (I guess the word is)...the show that has brought him as far as he has come. All he had to do was throw a line Kristin's way about how much the show and the fans have meant to him...and I'd be content.

I agree with a lot of other people who have said that even if the WB had wanted a 6th season of Angel we wouldn't have had one because David would have said no. A small part of me bets that somewhere inside David's head, he's been praying that the Save Angel campaign doesn't work so that he doesn't have to make that decision...and potentially alienate the whole fanbase he has.

I guess it just goes along with being the "star" of a show that is a cult hit and has gone on for years, and maybe like David D. and SMG...David B. will be receptive to picking up the mantle of Angel again someday.

My personal advise to him would be, "Hey Dave, you aren't the best actor on you might not want to alienate your fans...because you're going to need them...and stop doing that stupid little dance." ;)
heh, it probably just seems like a relief to him now, but he will miss it, just like SMG does......hes just trying to make this situation the best he can i suppose, oh well......................
redfern: yes! books! I'm a book nerd, too. I haven't read much genre stuff at all -- whom do you recommend the most as sharing JW's wit, wonder, and wisdom? Any recommendation(s) would be greatly appreciated.
whirligig - the information was from ASH himself in an interview at Toronto trek with Hypaspace TV back last July, he said he had talked to Joss the week before and he had told him he had a story started in his head for Ripper, and he had finished a rough outline for it and as soon as he finished with the (at the time) attempt to bring Firefly back he will start to work on fleshing it out, and it will be his top priority after whatever happens with Firefly.

Let me say this if David had not return to Angel next season this whole save Angel would be a moot point, so I am not offended by his remarks at all and I really don't see why anyone is. He's an actor, it's his job and it's not the first time he has been in the same posistion. Angel has been on the bubble for at least the last 3 seasons (including this one), inching closer and closer to the edge it was only a matter of time before he would either fall or be pushed. Think of it this way, do you think Joss would have even been asking Levin the fate of Angel if David wasn't going to come back. I know he had a contract negosiations this year but I don't think Joss would have been so hopeful and upset about Angel's cancelation if he didn't have some kind of confirmation from David for another season. Also David's interview attitude has always been a bit on the cool side - he has never come across as passionate about the show - he came across as a guy doing a job and that's it, although he seems more fan-friendly then some other actors, in the way he knows that they are the reason he has a job - remember he was the one saying he felt the fans were screwed by the WB with the shows cancellation. So give him a break, he's never been a good interview in any interview he's ever done, at least the ones I've seen he kind sucks when he's been interviewed in general.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-04-16 22:02 ]
Well, I'm not as good a boycotter as others. I'll still watch Gilmore Girls because that is LITERALLY the only show, besides Angel, that we watch regularly.
I'll probably even give DS a peek, but only because I had a crush on the old Barnabas, the one in the last remake, not the original or the most recent

But I still hope it tanks miserably.

My main worry is that as the WB seems the most likely station to pick up a spin-off, it will be a matter of principle, and it won't happen. Not as long as Levin is there. Because we(the fans) will have made a fool of him if he has to tuck his tail between his legs and bring back something from Joss' world. And to be very honest, while Angel's ratings had improved, they were never stellar. And they're not the kind of ratings that someone will agree to put a new show on with.

So I foresee not much Whedon stuff going on except Firefly-which I give thanks to the PTB for, but I need my Buffyverse stuff-so the tv landscape will be woefully barren, as if it's not already.
I've been reading SF and fantasy since I was 8 so my house is decorated in the worlds most expensive wallpaper - books. Where to start..... depends on whether you are into fantasy, sf, etc. I'd try Steven Brust trade paperback "The Book of Jhereg" which contains 3 novels.

Is there a way to share e-mail addrs without making them public? Or I could set a special one up for this ....

[ edited by redfern on 2004-04-17 02:12 ]
redfern & phlebotinin: I'd love to trade reading suggestions. Are either of you in Flickr? There is a book group there or we could start our own...


Based on discussions I've had with you hear I think you would really enjoy some of the more politically influenced speculative fiction. You might try LeGuin's The Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness, and the Earthsea "Trilogy". Also Neal Stephenson and Bruce Sterling. And some classic writers: Heinlein and Philip K. Dick.
that article made my heart break and my eyes fill with tears, but all of your comments mended my heart a little, thank you guys

i am SOOO sad and stupid

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