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April 17 2004

(SPOILER) Spoilers for the final episode.

oh...my...god...*stares at computer in shock* I need to go lay down for a while.
I was this close to reading it... then after reading the whole shebang that Tensai posted before the spoilers, I pulled myself away from it... I just... can't. I have faith that it will be a shocker... that's all I need.
I suspected that the finale would be 'volatile'. It's Joss after all. I'm beginning to think that we might actually get a TV movie or two in the future.

[ edited by Silent Night on 2004-04-17 20:12 ]
Okay, read it, maybe shouldn't have but it's done now.

Two possibilities spring to mind. One, this is one massive foiler that has just enough truth about it to distract us from hunting down the real finale details, this is the most likely possibilty.

Alternatively, this is accurate and it really will end this way. The only way i will believe Joss was willing to do that though, given how long he has known that this was most likely the finale of the whole series, is because he knows for a fact that he will be able to continue the story in the tv movies already. There is no way he would risk letting the entire storyline end like this otherwise.

Still tend to go with the foiler option though, after the way Chosen got ruined i think he is more than capable of pulling off the foiler of the century for Angel.
could be a foiler, but man, if its not, its still quite a good ending......................JM was right in his recent comments about the finale..............and i like how there bringin *said* thing from buffys finale "chosen".............just wondering how they will put it in there....................

[ edited by norman on 2004-04-17 20:17 ]
Good Lord.I like violence and mayhem,but this is over the top.Not saying it wont be good,but whos going to be left for possible movies or spinoff?
heh, yeah......its not as good for most of the characters as buffy finale was.........
Oh my god.

They can't. They just can't.

Why did I read this?! I was doing so well...
See, Angel didn't take the warning in Numero Cinco to heart. Now look what happens.

You should always listen to something that starts with the phrase "Cautionary Tale". ;)

Wow, I'm evil. I read the spoilers and I just don't get angry about those things. People die. So what? No biggie. Death has never stopped anyone before.
im not upset, if this is the ending, then its good
If you are reading this now, then I figure you know the spoilers, but I'll put a spoiler warning on here, anyway.

We got Spike, we have Illyria, we have Angel and we have a very tragic Lorne..

Also, Illyria can jump dimensions, etc. Death is never final in the Verse, remember that.

I am SO Glad that Unsouled Harmony is not Good.

Spike lives.

I think that death IS tragic. This sure beats joking about around the old school bus.
Thought of another possibilty to my previous two.

This could well be the truth as to how the finale plays out for the most part but there is the very good chance that the final scene is far from being what we see there. I can see Joss doing everything else that is mentioned in that spoiler, i mean, the final battle with the Senior Partners was never going to go off with no serious consequences.

That final scene though? Nah! Waaay too open ended! My guess is that there is a lot more closure then what is mentioned in that spoiler, most likely an entire missing scene.

Okay, gotta stop this speculation now, head hurting!
Damn , James wasn't kidding was he? I think I need a drink . And I'd better get a comfort blanket and a lot of hankies ready for whenever my tape of this arrives

Good God! Joss knows all about going for the pain doesn't he?
Okay, I get why they probably didn't ask the Scoobies & Gunn's old gang for reenforcements but do not tell me that Anne is going to be helping them through this. I don't want her in ANY of this. She's too sweet & we all know how that ends.

Where is GWEN!!!
i dont think anne helps at all..........
Nah, don't believe it, I think it's foilers, but I do believe there are probably elements of truth in it. The episode was written to be the season finale, not the series finale. I doubt Joss and Co. were planning to go into season 6 with a regular cast of only 4, true the show started with 3, but I don't believe that Gunn and Wesley are going to die (I can believe the Harmony thing, we saw in "Disharmony" that she's easilly swayed, bit dissapointing after what we've seen her do so far this year, or could it just be like Spike in the closing episodes of Buffy's fourth season, and that Hamilton has something she wants). I also don't believe that Lorne would beat Lindsey in a fight, I also reckon Lindsey would be clever enough to stay on Angel's side at least until after the Senior Partners are defeated. I believe what we already knew, and it would make sense that they believe they're headed for a large battle.

A dragon though, sounds silly.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-04-17 21:00 ]
Truthfully, I'm glad to see a lot of deaths in a series finally where they're facing life and death each friggin' week. My only issue is that Buffy was battling the end of the world, and mostly everyone got out alive. I just dont know if, compared to that, everyone suddenly up and dying something they probably would have otherwise survived (had it not been the series finale) is all that feesable.

If there is life after this in the Buffyverse though, it'll be sad without Wes.

I'm rather happy with Lorne just walking off, for some reason. And extremely pleased with Harmony's turn, since her just randomly choosing to be good without a soul has always bothered me. Although I dont really understand why when the women turn to the dark side, it always has to be through some guy's bed.
I completely feel these spoilers are just that and other than some minor changes and maybe an ending we aren't seeing and may not see til wildfeeds, this is it. And i think this looks rather incredible :)

Also? Someone asked how they could do a movie now with all these dead characters? Well, you see, that;s because these movies everyone is chattering about? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. It's kinda like a little worm Joss is dangling above our heads. Joss left this universe 3 years ago and he ain't coming back.

[ edited by syd on 2004-04-17 21:57 ]
Ok to quote Lorne from this week,"Make it with a little more sea and less breeze." and I don't drink. I wonder if my heart is still beating cause I think it stopped a few times while reading this ... I don't think OMG or shock even comes close to describing it. I'm just speechless .... I think I need to go away for awhile and think - cause my mind feels numb.
Syd, whilst i agree that Joss has other priorities at the moment, the obvious one being Serenity, i seriously doubt he has lost interest in the slayerverse. Besides, even if Joss didn't want direct involvement in future slayer shows Mutant Enemy is bigger than just him now. He would easily be able to pass the day to day stuff onto other show runners and writers. With the high mortality rate of genre tv shows this season i think it is a fair bet that Fury, Noxon, Greenwalt and quite a few others may be looking for regular work again very soon.

The movies will happen but only if, as i have said in another thread, we make sure Joss knows we want them to happen.

I agree about the unseen ending thing though. Leaving it where the spoiler says it ends would be like Chosen ending as Buffy, Spike and the potentials entered the Hellmouth. The big battle with the Senior Partners will be seen, that i am certain of.
Thanks, WB!
I'm rather suprised at all the "foiler" talk. This is Tensai we're getting the info from. The man is practically infallibe. His sheer dedication, amounts of research, etc, have lead to the single most accurate Angel spoiler site on the Internet. He's never led us astray before, and I doubt he is now. I can't think of a single time this season where a major spoiler he's broken has turned out to be false.
I do believe that if the actors are available, there will be at least one Angel tv-movie next year, I don't agree with Syd at all, Joss has in no way left the Buffyverse, though Serenity is going to be taking up his time over the next few months, shooting on that will have wrapped before we know it, and Joss, always the workaholic will be ready and willing to do Angel.

If Joss had no intention of doing movies, I think he'd say it, he's not Sarah Michelle Gellar, the movies aren't something he's saying now that he'll turn his back on in a few months.
Normally i would agree with you Zeppo. However these are unique circumstances. We know that Joss was extremely pissed when the details of Chosen were leaked and so it may be that he has arranged an "official" spoiler for the final episode of Angel.

Wouldn't be the first time, Chris Carter managed to keep the big surprises of the X-Files movie quiet. No reason why Joss can't do the same here.

I tend to think that everything in this spoiler has an element of truth in it but there is more to all of the plotlines than we are currently seeing.

Other than the fact that no season of either Buffy or Angel has ended on such a cliffhanger before, always wrapping up the Big Bad story nicely, there is the very obvious fact that if this truly was how the season would have ended even with a season six to follow, no way was Wesley going to die. Gunn dies yes, Harmony betrays the guys yes, but Wesley's death being part of the storyline if there had been a season six? Not a chance. If he dies at all there will be something happen to bring him back, most likely involving Illyria.
Speaking of "official spoilers", remember back to the end of Season 5 of Buffy & Season 2 of Angel. There were quite a lot of foilers released surrounding those episodes, a completely different story. I've put them up here.

Even earlier than that, the end of season 2 was supposed to see Jenny turned into a vampire, and then have conflict with Buffy and Giles at the end as they fight over who to ensoul, Angelus or Jenny.
Thanks Ghost Spike, I had never read any of those. Interesting.

Buffy's dad comes to Sunnydale with his new friend Sophie (Babylon 5's Melissa Gilbert)

Can I just say how very funny I think this one is because isn't the actor who plays Hank Summers the same one who played Almanzo Wilder from Little House on the Prarie? I've actually never bothered to look that up but I think that's why I recognize him.
If Joss had no intention of doing movies, I think he'd say it, he's not Sarah Michelle Gellar, the movies aren't something he's saying now that he'll turn his back on in a few months.

Ah, had to get that SMG dig in there, huh?

And yeah, Joss has never said one thing and done another. Sure...

I really hope the actors have other, promising things on their plates than doing an Angel or Buffy movie.

[ edited by syd on 2004-04-17 23:39 ]
The dig at SMG was unfair,couldnt think of another example though, as we now know why she didn't make an appearence, I just don't think Joss would tell such a lie as "I'll make Angel Tv-movies" when in his head he's thinking "There's no way I'm going to make Angel Tv-movies"
I think Joss has good intentions, i will say that, i just... I think he gets distracted easily.

And, heh, you know? I think I'll just be leaving the SMG debate alone this time...

[ edited by syd on 2004-04-17 23:56 ]
Cheers for those Buffy examples Ghost Spike, i had forgotten all about them actually.

Just goes to show that Joss is more than capable of throwing the fans off track though. The Gift ended up being nothing like the spoilers that were being believed to be solid fact at the time, this could well be the exact same thing.
We know that Joss was extremely pissed when the details of Chosen were leaked

I don't remember Joss being pissed about it - just resigned. I think he posted once at the Bronze that yeah, the spoilers were out, but it was the end and he didn't care anymore. Joss & ME have enough on their plate right now; they don't have time to be crafting elaborate foilers. If Tensai's got confirmation from multiple sources, than I think this is pretty much how it plays out. They might be able to keep one last scene under wraps (like ep8), but that's all.

Remember the interviews with James and Amy? Alexis wrapped filming 4 days before the rest of the cast, Andy a day or two early as well. It definitely sounds like Angel, Spike & Illyria are the only ones who make it all the way.
yeah, and im sick of the characters dying and coming back, so if wesley dies, then he better be dead for good (assuming we see tv movies, big screen movies, etc)....................the characters being brought back to life is old.........
wow.....
good points made by all! if its all true....gee joss, had to get us one more time,eh? its going to take a while for this to all sink in. its especially sad that wes is going to (might??) be killed off...if there is a movie, he really should stay dead though. i can't think of one buffyverse character that died and stayed dead....they came back in some way or another.

this is very very very sad...the kleenex people will be getting a lot of my business though.
Principal Flutie ;)
Ahh! Yes, how could I have forgotton. Also, I think Snyder stayed dead as well...
Snyder showed up in Xander's dream in Restless. Doyle never showed up again in a new way did he? Wasn't it always old footage?
What about Tara?
*shocked* See,this is me shocked...*stares blankly at computer* Maybe it's a foiler...maybe it's not. Either way...a day or two to digest this info? Try a month.
"Doyle never showed up again in a new way did he? Wasn't it always old footage?"

The actor Glenn Quinn died about 16 months ago
I know he died in early 2003 but he wasn't on the show after early first season. There was a two or three year gap where they could have brought him back if they wanted to.

Tara's another one. Even Oz really though he wasn't actually dead.
yeah oz isnt dead, just never showed back up, which is a shame.
Who is going to be left for the movies? Maybe they should just make a Angel-Spike-Illyria-Lorne variety hour. My head hurts.
Ok - still in stun mode ... but just wondering is anyone else stunned about what Lorne supossidly going to do ... I mean for the most part our Pyleanian pal was the only real non-violent member of the gang for him in the last episode to take a life just sends shivers down my spine. I mean hitting someone I can understand but actually taking a life - he will definitely end up a changed man. As for Harmony, we have always known she was the weak link, she will follow anyone at the drop of a hat - who will pay attention to her (ie Spike) and I'm sure Hamilton did his research and knows her biggest weak spot is wanting someone to care about her. Thus bringing the foreshadowing to the front, from Harm's Way.
See, what RavenU just posted is what is ringing the alarm bells for me that this is all foiler.

We go from the totally out of character (Lorne killing Lindsey) to the totally predictable (Harmony's betrayal) with a very unlikely death (Wesley) thrown into the mix.

In eight years i have never known Joss to write a character badly, use a predictable storyline or kill off a popular character as part of a mass slaughter without good reason.

Bottom line, something doesn't smell right in spoiler city folks.
Well, I'm really fascinated by the idea of this, actually. I was thinking during 'Underneath' that I felt like Wes was going to die, although I've talked about the episode so much since then that I can't even remember why I thought that in the first place.

This makes sense to me, though, especially with the repeated counting of how many soldiers are down. Now it looks like Angel will lose all of them. Except Spike, but somehow I don't think he counts as one of Angel's "soldiers." At least, definitely not in the same way as everyone else does.
One character killing another is never "out of character." Any person is capable of killing another person given the correct circumstances. We don't know the events leading to Lorne's shooting of Lindsey. We only know that he does it. Therefore, until further information becomes available, it seems perfectly reasonable that he could do it. I cannot imagine what that scenario would be, but then again, I haven't seen any of the next five episodes.

Regarding Wesley and Gunn's ends... I tend to believe that both of these are in the script, and are as Joss/Jeff intended. If there's any change to this in the final episode, it will probably come out of a change during filming (which is not wholly unprecedented).

Tensai has been working the spoiler gig for a few years now, and he's never, ever led us astray. In the past year, he's refined his methods and built his contact base so greatly, that he no longer bothers to rate the spoilers he gets. He simply posts them, because he has confirmed knowledge that they are at least the most likely course of events. Obviously minor corrections come here and there, but mostly the big events are as he says. The episode has been filmed (and it should be noted, Alexis finished a week early) - somebody's seen it. Somebody knows how it's going to go, and that means that the truth exists - and Tensai has always delivered the truth.

The *only* scenario in which I could accept these as foilers is if Tensai himself is in on it. Which is a not entirely unlikely scenario, given that he is deeply popular within the Buffy community. ME may have contacted him. However, the man was aghast in his post. Shocked. Completely floored. On top of that, he has two series to follow next year, and probably would not do something so brazen as to lose the trust of his readership in order to become a shill for a single episode (we'll leave that up to Kristen - who I love, but has been known to pass false info to appease Joss and other producers).

This is how it's probably going to go down, minor tweaks aside. Buddha save us all.
My theories:

I don't think that this is everything--I think Joss would be more careful about letting info leak. Either this is one massive foiler,or there are missing scenes.

Gunn will die. No surprise. Wesley will die? No. Not gonna happen. At the very least he will be brought back to life. Wesley dying,and staying dead,just doesn't make any sense. It just doesn't work. I could be way,way off. But I'm sure--one way or another--he will be back.

Lorne kills Lindsey. I believe it. It's such a Joss thing to do. Lorne will have had enough. He just won't be who he used to be anymore (something we saw the first stages of in 'Underneath'). The characters always change. It's Lorne's time.

Harm turns against the gang. Duh.

There WILL be movie(s). Joss wouldn't lie about that. Especially if the last episode is left open ended. I'm sure there will be at least one movie to tie up the loose ends. Which is another reason Wesley will be back. I doubt they plan to make a movie with just Illyria,Angel and Spike. Plus,I'm sure that the Shanshu thing will be a big part as well.

If the spoilers for the final ep. are indeed true (or mostly true) then I am going to miss Gunn. I will be sad about what happens with Lorne (though I'll be glad he doesn't die). I'll be pleased that Spike is still around--he is so funny--and Lindsey got what was coming to him.

If the spoilers are false (or mostly false) then God help us all,because it will be gut wrenchingly unexpected. We will be watching the characters we love--and hate--die with no warning to prepare us. And we will have no clue about who will be left standing at the end.

Either way,we will need kleenex,popcorn and a friend to keep us from killing ourselves when the weekly Buffy/Angelverse we have known and loved for 8 years goes away. Movies are great,but the weekly dose of Joss found in a series will be forever missed. Now if you'll excuse me,I have to go chow down a box of cookies and cry at the base of my Joss Whedon shrine.
Can someone explain to me why Anne is back. Am I the only super-confused one there? Of all the people they could bring to the end, they chose her?
jenguin--not JUST her. They are bringing back many,many people from Angel's past. Although I do wish they had left Anne out of it.
Actually, lovelorne, many many Angel theorists (those wacky folks who try to extrapolate future events based on current eps and their spoilers) have been saying repeatedly that this entire season has been leading to Wesley's death, for various reasons - he's too far-gone, his journey is over... Jennyo has something called the Unifying Wes Theory or somesuch...

In any case, of all the spoilers, I believe the death of Wes the *most*.
>>Can someone explain to me why Anne is back. Am I the only super-confused one there? Of all the people they could bring to the end, they chose her?<<

because Anne is key... Anne is one of the only characters to have taken on Wolfram & Hart and come out on top (albiet with Angel's help)

thematically she is very important for that reason... and also... because while this show revolves around identity crisis and belonging - anne has found her place, found her place in a big bad city, and that place just happens to be running a teen shelter - helping people, just like angel

she is everything these characters are trying to be (in a way, of course)

if anyone at all from the past deserves to return to help these characters complete the final episode - it's anne (i think only kate or gwen could enable the same effect, but their stories were more open ended and they had the oppurtunity to find their place, but we never saw it)

[ edited by aapac on 2004-04-18 03:27 ]
yeah wesley death is probably true..............which i think fits into this season............
TheJoyofZeppo--maybe. You could be right. I mean,it would sorta be the humane thing to do. And if he does stay dead,then I would be pleased. It's almost painful to watch him anymore.

Who on earth is going to come back for the movie? Everyone is dead!
plenty of buffyverse characters left..........it doesnt just have to be about angel :)
Wesley is by far my favorite and probably most evolved character in the buffyverse. I don't want to watch him die!!!!!
Anne is also the only real connection Gunn has left to his past, his gang is long gone and Anne is there, I believe as the key to his beginning of his end - just like they showed Fred and her parents before she died. In a way it seems to be a summary, on how far he has come and how much he has changed. I have been one of the few begging for Anne to return cause she has a connection to almost every guy on Angel and I really want her to run into Spike, cause I think that will bring another level around Spike's development (cause remember in Lie to Me - Anne aka Chantrelle at the time is the one Spike was feeding on when Buffy attacked Dru), it would bring a certain crossover element between Buffy and Angel in the final episode, it's also a way to remind us of how far Spike and Anne have both come.
I just thought of something the only person no one seems to have mention that should have been brought back as well for this last episode ... is Lilah - why didn't they bring her back - she could have come back. If Wes had to die then who better to kill him.
I guess all the deaths is the most dramatic thing the writers (or Joss) can come up with. Personally I was wondering if they would end up pancaking the building and stand on the rubble ala Chosen style, but after 9-11 I don't think they would touch that concept.

Since a certain character was killed off (ahem) Joss has been on an endearing killing spree since he discovered its the easiest way to mess with the fans minds, remember Anya? What was the point with that? Sheesh)

Always leave them wanting more? *shrugh*
characters die, its real life and tv life...................
People keep saying that Joss wouldn't have allowed this much to leak out. Um...do we remember seeing the full script last year of Chosen? I sure did and though we all believed that that could not be it, it, well...was.

And also, in regards to how Joss and ME treat death, someone one pointed out that Joss treats death and love like Disney. Love is a fairy tale and death is merely a plot device. Which i always felt was kinda a shame.
RavenU is right! I want Lilah! I had thought about that...she would be good to have at the end.
Think about it. That spoiler adds up to about 30 minutes at most. There has to be more.

Also rememeber that we've got a Goddess of Time floating around. She loses most of her power prior to this event, but we don't know where that power went for sure, do we? I have a feeling that we'll see a play on her temporal powers at some point after these spoilers play out.

As for the Dragon, who knows. I'd have rather he had gone with something more akin to a Balrog if he was going to pay homage to D&D/Tokien. Or a three headed demonic beast with a wolf's head, a ram's head and a hart's head.
Well,syd,since I was one of the ones who said that Joss wouldn't allow all this to leak,let me clarify my statement. I meant that since he let ALL that 'Chosen' spoilery-goodness out,he might be more careful this time. Plus,maybe this info is just to keep us off the real ending's spoilers.
It's also not like this is the first one he has almost gotten by us, remember Lindsey earlier this season, no one saw that coming until a few days before the episode aired and that was only because some critics got an early preview and let it slip out. I also remember Chosen as well as Grave from Buffy having multiple endings shot of key scenes to throw spoilers off. So who knows.
The script I read of Chosen as a spoiler wasn't identical to the episode, though. For one thing Xander died and Anya had his last lines, and for another it wasn't Buffy whose shape the First took in the basement--it was the Master, Angelus, etc. There was also some Kendra in there. And the First was Joyce when it talked to Buffy after she got stabbed. To be honest, the script I read sort of ruled. (And also made me wonder why the First didn't take Angelus's or Angel's form while David Boreanaz was hanging around the set, as I thought that would be neat.)

[ edited by weatherby on 2004-04-18 05:10 ]
Also: How many times has JW killed off *multiple* main characters in an episode and not brought them back? No, with that much death going on, something has to undo it.
if something happens to undo it, it will be stupid..........bring on the death :)........lol
Weatherby, you read one that was just roaming the net, many of us read page by page the exact script that we saw onscreen.

How many times has JW killed off *multiple* main characters in an episode and not brought them back?

Well, how many times has JW really ended a franchise? Personally, I would hate any kind of redux. Way too simple and cheap. If the deaths mean something, then i will be content with them.
I agree, syd. As much as I loved characters like Tara and Jenny and, of course, Cordy, I am glad that we never/will never see them come back. Spike's death meant little to me because I knew he would be back, and as saddened as I may be when character deaths happen, I'd prefer the characters to remain dead. If anything I feel like bringing them back lessens the meaning.

And I did always wonder about that script--in truth I only glanced at it before Chosen aired, as I didn't want to be spoiled in huge detail like that. Anya having Xander's lines seemed weird, like it was a doctored script that a fan had done, but the First's lines were excellent. Does anyone know what that was? Doctored? Real?
I do remember the script you are talking about, because many thought that 2 scripts had been released and that we would never know which was real until airing. We learned, though, that it was actually a bit of fanfic on someone's part who was not happy with the actual script that was out there.
I won't get too far into pointers, because you guys have discussed it far better than I could try to reach in only a small message.
I hope this is the end, it's good, it's heartbreaking, and leaves a lot of open holes to be covered, in the future, either in a Angel movie event, or a Buffy / Angel movie event, even a mini series.
Tensai's info are pretty much reliable, he rechecked several times before deciding to post it, so if major changes weren't made during shooting, at least 70% of the description is valid. But as said before there are several holes.
What do we have about the end until now?
1) A brief Casting Side about the beginning of the episode, possibly even only from the teaser.
2) Some really brief info from some interviews, with people wrapping earlier.
3) We have a cast list
4) And now we have a long description of most of the episode.
We know for a fact that ME is definetely being more careful about where to release it's info, and who's getting it. I don't think they would just go that far to made up a foiler, even though they did in the end of Buffy's 5th season and Angel's 2nd, they didn't do it last year during Buffy's end. Maybe they knew it wouldn't work. Maybe they didn't had the time. Or maybe they just didn't see a point to go that far, they just had to be more careful.
By this same time last year, the official Chosen script was already spreading through theb net, we even had multiple endings, concerning the dying scooby. Have seen such thing for Not Fade Away? I don't think so. They are keeping things tigher, which are making harder to get the true info, but it 's whatsover a real info, in my opinion.
I even believe that beside the official casting list there might be some extra surprise castings. Lilah might actually appear and their just not telling us. Mayber there is more things about the final scene that we can grasp from the avilable info.
We'll just have to wait and see.
*sigh* Joss Whedon endings are so hard...he is so good at making me cry. I will be bawling so hard when it ends...oh well. It's why we love him so much,he is just so good at what he does. I'm just super duper happy that Lorne is NOT dying. I will miss Gunn though.
>>Or a three headed demonic beast with a wolf's head, a ram's head and a hart's head. <<

What on earth is a hart's head? haha... but seriously, the idea of a wolf, a ram, and a... heart... just is highly amusing, and I'm totally behind it.

Is anyone else not entirely stoked about the movies of the week? It seems like the debate is all about will they/wont they, and never should they?

Dont get me wrong, I know I'll be eating my words if nothing ever happens, and I never see the Buffyverse on tv or on screen again... but, three things. No, four things.

1.) I was hoping for a theatrical movie. I think the phrase Movie Of The Week just automatically makes me think that they're gonna cast Jennie Garth in the role of Buffy, and it'll be called something like "The Vampires I've Loved."

2.) Are these movies gonna be Angel movies or Buffy movies? It seems like the ending of Angel has got everyone referring to them as Angel movies, but I'd prefer an equal split. A somehow graceful union of two worlds.

3.) I just dont know how they're going to use what they have to work with on not a weekly basis. The fact is that, even with the deaths, we have a ridiculous amount of characters to work with, and not all of them can get equal plot and screentime. This makes for angry/disapointed avid fans of some characters that may feel jipped.

4.) This is just personal opinion, but I'm completely unhappy with the fate of the Buffy characters. I hate that Xander, Willow and Giles are all not only not together, but in different countries. New Slayers or not, they should have a better system than sending just some regular guy that happened to hang with a Slayer for 7 years into Africa to pick her up. The only person I'm happy with is Andrew, but it's a far cry from being fufilled in a show that I thought was primarily about friendship.

Also, a major thing I would have been looking forward to in any future crossovers is interaction between the Scoobies, Wes and Cordy again, and I guess that's not happening.
Well, I think the finale is very weird! Also sad! I'm sure I will cry so much!
But I trust in Joss, I know he wont let us down.
I hope that the "Cookie dough" reference be made by Angel.
I will miss Angel so much!
Cole Searr a hart is a male deer, especially a male red deer over five years old. So the three heads would be a wolf's head, a ram's head, and a deer's head - which would be actually quiet cool to see.
You know - it occurs to me that the spoilers regarding the middle of the episode (the missions, etc.) kind of remind me of the end of The Godfather.

Huh.
So we have Angel, Spike and Illyria fighting (and winning) Wolf, Ram and Hart. There has not yet been mentioning about Shanshu, or shanshuing in final, but during this season it has been noted several times. So, if they could choose to 'get a life', they probably would use their cards this way: Illyria ressurrects Wes, Spike Fred (with or without Illyria's approval) and Angel has to do an angsty decision between Gunn and Cordy. (Gunn)

There has to be something big life/world changing after that dragon.
Holy f***. Jetlagged as hell coming back from the States, haven't gone to sleep and the finale spoilers are out. Bloody hell. I really can't take this in right now.
Tell me about it Simon! I read the spoilers without being jetlagged and I still couldn't take it. It took me all day to calm down. I was so freaked...I still feel dizzy.

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