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April 27 2017

(SPOILER) S.H.I.E.L.D. Poll: If anyone comes to life from the Framework, who should it be? Only one vote per person.

Here's an unpopular opinion: no one.

It's not a question of who I like or find interesting, or whether I would like to see more of them. If that were the question - well, Hope is an adorable little girl who's there to mske Nack's story more interesting and heartbreaking, and Trip is a likable guy but never was a terribly well developed or complex character, while, om the other hand, I've always found Ward to be one of the most interesting characters on AoS, so there's no contest. I love that they brought him back in this way, which is narratively interesting and allows some closure with "what if?" moments (and a parallel/contrast to Fitz), without negating his real world story and death. (If it was a question of "who you are most enjoying seeing more of?", you'd have to nominate Mike Peterson, Raina or non-mindwiped Cal as alternative to Ward to make me a bit conflicted.)
But I still don't want him brought back into the real world. Nor any other dead character.

Why? Because I don't want AoS to become like Heroes, which became notorious for constantly reviving dead characters and treating death like a revolving door, until it lost all meaning and viewers didn't think there were any stakes anymore. This show has always (or at least almost always) opted for actions having consequences even when it is tragedy and heartbreak, instead of comforting, fanservicey reset buttons. And it should remain that way.

Mack's daughter Hope is there to create a dramatic conflict and emotional challenge: leaving the Framework means Mack must lose her again. He will probably be tempted to stay. By bringing her into the real world, you would remove all drama, conflict and difficulties from the situation, instead trying to have your cake and eat it. And bringing either Ward or Trip into the real world and having them back on a regular basis would essentially be negating several seasons of storylines (and would, of course, totally reek of fanservice).

Sure, it's a SciFi show and you can do all sorts of stuff, vut if you want good storytelling, if you want the story to have real stakes, you don't get to bring back characters you've killed off just because fans want them back. With human beings, you wouldn't get to be like: "We had to destroy Ward 1.0, he was irrevocably corrupted by a virus - but here's the new and shiny Ward 2.0 with all the glitches fixed. Yay!" It should remain a "what if" for the protagonists. People's actions, good and bad, have consequences, and they must live or die with them. And the same goes for writers: you make certain storytelling choices, you have to stick to them and follow up on the consequences, and your show must live (or die) with them.

[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-04-27 20:05 ]

[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-04-27 20:06 ]
I voted for Hope. While it would be sad to leave Ward and Trip behind, nobody would be destroyed by it. I don't think Mack could deal with losing Hope again, though. She would have to be a real person, though. It wouldn't work for him to play father to an artificial intelligence in a robot body.
As a parent, I'd have to go with Hope. As a viewer, I'd choose Trip, as we haven't yet seen his character's potential played out. Ward's character has completed its arc, good to bad to good again (that's tremendously oversimplified, of course).
Pretty sure it's going to be evil Fitz, if Ada has anything to say about it. Real Fitz will probably end up dead. Because Whedons are just that cruel. ;)
@lyennenne: He's the same person, so one can't end up dead and another alive. It's just a matter of whether he will have his real world memories back (not if Aida/Madame Hydra can decide) and how he will deal with it if/when he does get them back (he will be pretty messed up, I'm sure).

But my feeling is that Mack will sacrifice himself,
so that she can live.
The comments that accompany the linked article are thoughtful, wide-ranging and courteous. It's a nice reflection on our fan community. (Though I can't help being amused at an auto-correct failure when someone mentioned that Trip's lineage was "the Bowling Commandos".)

I didn't vote; I don't want to increase my moral stake in the outcome. But as far as my preferences go, I would not vote for Ward, because I'm tired of him in any form; Trip, if he were the exclusive choice from this set of three, would come back knowing that as a result of his being saved, Hope had not been saved; and to have Hope return seems just too pat--unless she turns out to be an Inhuman (as someone suggested in the comments), or can materially add to the story line in some other way.

Can someone please remind me, though: What caused Trip's death exactly? I remember that he was in the chamber with Skye and Raina when the crystal released its gas--but that gas doesn't kill non-Inhumans, does it? Because if it does, then May should have died when she re-transformed Daisy in the Framework.

[ edited by mozzarellademon on 2017-04-28 12:33 ]
mozzarellademon, the crystal by itself doesn't have any effect on non-Inhumans (in the show; I believe the comics are different). It was the Diviner that killed Trip. A fragment of it hit him in the shoulder, IIRC.
No, pre season 3 crystals definitely kill non o humans. It killed Gonzales and whole bunch of people on the submarine.
Grack21-No, it's not the Terrigen itself that kills humans. It's the Diviner metal. Jiaying smashed a crystal so some of the metal casing would hit Gonzales.
I would be more in favor of bringing Ward back if this were the end of the series (hopefully it's not). I'm just not sure what the show would do with him. Let's face it... he was kind of boring as a good guy in season 1.

I'd like to see the Framework confirmed as a real world, and Ward stay behind to play the role of Bearded Spock in leading them to a post-Hydra recovery.

(Though I can't help being amused at an auto-correct failure when someone mentioned that Trip's lineage was "the Bowling Commandos".)

They all had matching polo shirts.

[ edited by AndrewCrossett on 2017-04-28 15:44 ]
My desire for Trip to return aside, logically, if they really are going to "save their world" as Phil said, there really isn't any need for Ward or Trip (as much as I want him to) come to the "real world". Ward will have his Skye and Trip seems content with his life. And if when they leave, Hope gets the original version of that Earth's Mack, she'll be fine too. Unless because she's the result of Mack's regret and might not have that Earth's Mack, then it obviously should be her that comes through. Or Mack is going to stay. Because unless he knows for sure I can't see him leaving her behind. And if he did leave her while not knowing, he's not the Mack whose story I care to follow anymore.

So either no one comes over, Hope comes over, or Mack stays with Hope and maybe Trip comes over in his place. Like an alt-Earth/real Earth exchange program. Ward stays.

OT I may or may not have started a fanfic a while back called the Bowling Commandos about a bowling alley owned by Col. Philips where Steve, Tony, and Phil have bowling teams...
Right, derp, the metal in the casing. This is why I shouldn't internet in the early morn.
I say Hope. Ward's story is done and bringing him back ruins a good ending. Trip would be cool, but Mack losing Hope again is too cruel.
An adult has made more connections in their lives than a baby or toddler has (Mack mentioned that Hope was 2 when she died, right?), so based purely on that, I think in terms of ripple effect of giving a whole lot more people the happies in the real world, Trip should be brought back. Hope wasn't known by anyone at the current age she's at, so it'd be weird (and near-impossible) for Mack to show her to his ex-wife and any extended family and be all, "Look, it's really, she IS, because I say so."

Flip side of the argument -- Trip was a soldier who knew the risks. The increased risk of a premature death was a part of the job he took on, plus he also would want Mack to have his daughter back. Who cares if the rest of Mack's family wouldn't know her/maybe not accept her, MACK would.

I'm not a "women and children first" kinda guy -- every life has value. If we've gotta be brutal and choose, though, then for me it comes down to "who lost the most" combined with "whose death was felt by and negatively effected the most amount of people" and, while it sucks when a baby or toddler dies and gets ripped off for maturing and experiencing all life has to offer, they're not really intelligent enough yet or aware of what they're losing (or even what is happening to them when they go) and their death effects their parents and family, mainly. When any adult (especially one in their prime like Trip) dies, unless they lived the life of a's horrible to face your own mortality and for everyone who's gotten to know you and grown to care for you to suddenly lose you.

I mostly don't want Hope back because I don't want a recurring child character on this show. They're usually not great (exception: Weeds and a rare few other shows). It's also too typical and twee. As Trip's resurrection would be as well, I suppose. But if one of 'em have to come back, I hope it's Trip so that maybe he can get a proper arc (as others have mentioned, as much as the character was well-liked by some of the fandom, he was a little undercooked). Ward would be best for "conflicted audience reaction" and for not really making ANYONE in the real world happy, but...

Ward...I was thinking selfishly (plus in terms of eye candy), but as someone above mentioned, Ward was boring in Season 1 while he was still pretending to be good. No thanks. And we don't need another go-around with him as a villain, either.

Or no one. I'm good with no one from The Framework coming back. And it was purely for the exploration and the lasting consequences for our regular characters. But it's too juicy an opportunity for a show to resist, so at least ONE of these characters will probably be coming back.

I'm sure there're other worthwhile characters they could bring back beyond just that list of 3. Can't think of any at the moment, though.

Edited to add: It's my niece's 1st bday today and I'm helping put it together, I do like kids (despite how I may have come off above). Not entirely a monster, hah. I'm just practical when it comes to discussing these moral dilemmas (made some enemies years ago when discussing whether to save mother giving birth or newborn in awful situations like that, if you could only choose one), and I prefer my entertainment mostly child-free (exception: some of the stuff I grew up with and maybe "Stranger Things", when I get around to it..."Gifted" with Chris Evans and Octavia Spencer was good, but that's because McKenna Grace was awesome, or was well-managed by that director at least).

[ edited by Kris on 2017-04-30 14:23 ]

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