This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"Dear God, spare me and I'll spend my life helping the poor, unless you don't like them for some reason and that's why they're poor."
11983 members | you are not logged in | 26 July 2017




Tweet







May 01 2017

(SPOILER) Agents of SHIELD 4x20 "Farewell, Cruel World!" Sneak Peak #2. Simmons and Daisy face some tough choices.

This sounds like a way the writers could potentially like Grack21 and Dusk theorized a few weeks ago.
I'm not sure why you're spoiler tagging this, it's just speculation, not a spoiler.

I've seen a lot of speculation on various sites and on Youtube about evil Fitz returning, so I can't remember what exactly was Grack21's and Dusk's speculation. If it's just that Fitz may awake in the real world with his Framework Fitz memories only and no memories of the Real World Fitz' life, then yes, that may indeed happen, since it's exactly what Aida is trying to do. But as for some fans's speculation that "there will be two Fitzes", that makes no sense. There is just one Fitz consciousness, not two. The same Fitz is "good Fitz" in the real world and "evil Fitz" from the Framework. So, if Fitz awakes in the real world, there are two possibilities: either they manage to bring back his memories of who he was in the real world (in which case, he's going to have one hell of an identity crisis and lots of guilt and angst!), or Aida prevents that and Fitz still has just the Framework mindset, still is evil and still in love with "Ophelia". But in any case, there is just one Fitz.
I am not really expecting Evil Fitz to come back to the real world in any form, but I would not really have a problem with two Fitz consciousnesses. Fitz has a physical body in real world and a consciousness there that is suspended, plus a consciousness in the framework that was branched from the original Fitz at some point. Tripp has zero body in real world, but still has a Framework consciousness (created from other people's memories of Tripp, plus public information available to AIDA, perhaps?).

So, that gives
Fitz: 1 body, 1 or 2 consciousnesses.
Tripp: zero body, but 1 consciousness.

When a real person exits the Framework,
It seems there are four major possibilities:
1. Framework experiences and memories vanish. Back to original Fitz.
2. Framework memories overwrite the originals. Evil Fitz in the Real World.
3. Framework memories persist along with originals.
Like the memories of a dream. Who knows which side seems more real?
4. Something else happens that I haven't thought of.

- - - - -

P.S. Real Season Ending, Cliff Hanger, Mind Bending,Twist.

Eveyone gets back to the Real World only to discover,
That The Framework WAS the Real World.
But he doesn't have two consciousnesses. He has just one consciousness. The Fitz in the Framework is the same entity as the Fitz in the real world - ditto May, Coulson, Mack and the late Mace. He has a different set of memories than he had in the real world, but that doesn't mean he got another consciousness. His consciousness in the real world is not suspended, it's been transferred to the Framework.

When Cal got his memories overwritten, he didn't gain another consciousness. Ditto the people who were previously subjected to the TAHITI project. You don't create two consciousnesses just because you've overwritten someone's memories.

P.S. According to the Word of God, i.e. Jed Whedon, Trip, Ward etc. in the Framework aren't created from any memories or information, they're supposed to be digital copies of exactly who they were in the real world (minus the ripple effects of changes), because the Darkhold with its dark magic/science/whatever gave AIDA the ability to perfectly replicate the real world.
Excellent points, I was ignoring the Darkhold "secret ingredients" to make the impossible possible and was thinking about how this could be accomplished in our real world.

I find this storyline incredibly compelling/frightening/creepy, because I think we are within a generation of being able to accomplish this without Darkhold mumbo-jumbo. I suspect it will be misused in some fairly spectacular fashions. Hopefully not as world wrecking as I suspect AIDA's endgame will be. But I put very little beyond our talent for destruction.

It probably would be a cheat, but I do like the idea that the real and virtual world are reversed. Or our team being trapped in a nested series of Frameworks. The excellent Star Trek:TNG episode "Ship in a Bottle" is a wonderful example of this.
I'm catching up on the season and just got to "What If" WOW. Best season so far! Love Jemma and Daisy. Wow.
Ha, I just caught up from being behind a few weeks too (though I haven't been avoiding spoilers). Crazy.

I didn't really specualte that much, I just figured evil fitz/evil may would be a bad guy in season 5 because that would be mean, and the showrunners are mean, and I figured fitz and simmons wouldn't be in a happy relationship for long. :P
Wait. If the Darkhold gave Aida the ability to create "an exact duplicate of Earth", that means every single person had their own consciousness until she plugged in whomever from Real Earth. That means that alt-Fitz does have his own consciousness. It's just been slightly altered/over written by Real Fitz being plugged into the Framework, where it read his "regret" and changed the alt-Earth around that regret (his dad, supposedly, which I think is shenanigans...) so it is entirely possible for that Darkhold tech which is making Aida a human body to make another and put in alt-Fitz's consciousness while real Fitz wakes up sharing some of his memories of what happened during the time he was plugged in. Fitz 1 And 2 are like a Venn Diagram. Large Blue Circle, Original Fitz- all good things. Large Red Circle, Duplicate Fitz- shitty life and father. Over-lap: Purple, the time Original Fitz was plugged into the Framework and riding around inside Duplicate Fitz.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2017-05-02 17:29 ]
@NYPinTA: None of that changes the fact that the evil "the Doctor" Framework Fitz has the same consciousness as the real world Fitz who was plugged into the Framework. They are not two different people, there will be no Evil Fitz vs Good Fitz fight (contrary to some fans' ideas) except maybe as an identity crisis within Fitz. And there is also just one Fitz body in the real world - Aida has it under her control, she certainly won't be trying to build another one, since there is no reason to.
They started out as two different people. They cam be two different people. We don't know if Aida is going to make him another body or not, which she most certainly can do if she chooses too. Alt-Fitz asked to come with her. We don't know if that means she wants another Fitz, or what. The fact remains though that they set up all of the resources for there to be two Fitz on Real Earth. Because the Darkhold gave Aida the technology to create an entirely new body. There is no rule that says she can only create bodies for people where one already exists. And there is no reason to think once they all wake up that any of what the Framework (via Aida, IMO) did will stick.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2017-05-02 18:13 ]
No, there is no setup for there being two Fitzes. Framework Fitz is the same person/consciousness/entity as real world Fitz that got plugged into the Framework, same as May, Coulson and Mack (and Mace before he died). That's why Fitz would die in the real world if they killed him in the Framework, same as Mace did. And Aida has absolutely no reason to try to build another body for Fitz. Why would she do that, when he already has one, and it's under her control?

Why isn't anyone speculating that there will be two Mays or two Coulsons or two Macks once they get back? The only reason these theories even exist, IMO, is because many fans are having trouble accepting the fact that the Doctor and the good Leo Fitz are the same person. It feels like the "Angel/Angelus are two different people" thing all over again, the fandom coming up with something that makes no sense for the show's canon and mythology and applying it exclusively to one character, in order to disassociate the evil version from the good one, even though the whole point of the story is that they are the same person.
Interesting point about there only being one version of Fitz.

How would that work with Simmons and Daisy since they took over the existing avatars? Granted Simmons was dead but people in the Framework remember a different Daisy. Also, since May was the first one in the Framework, did she encounter a different version of Fitz initially, prior to when Fitz in the real world was captured and put in the Framework? Did he take over that previous version?
No one is speculating about there being two May's or Coulson's because only Fitz asked Aida if he could go with her.

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home