Discuss Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 4x21 "The Return" - Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Framework Elena is in a Hydra lab, tied down with what are undoubtedly power-inhibiting restraints, while the now leaderless Hydra collapses violently around her. She's in trouble.

AndrewCrossett | May 09, 22:01 CET

A lot of good her speed does her if she's strapped down to a table.

Nebula1400 | May 09, 22:01 CET

OK, that was nothing what I was excepting in the best way possible.

Also, both the book am I reading and the show I am watching have a character named Fitz that the creator(s) are doing horrible things to!

Grack21 | May 09, 22:03 CET

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.Or a fomer android.

Great episode tonight.Can't wait for the finale next week.

Buffyfantic | May 09, 22:03 CET

Also, Ward will rescue YoYo. I mean cmon.

Grack21 | May 09, 22:04 CET

Unless Mace revealed it nobody outside of SHIELD knows about GR.

JDL | May 09, 22:11 CET

Also holy god give Malory Janson the damn Emmy.

Grack21 | May 09, 22:15 CET

If the Darkhold is a builder of worlds, then maybe the Framework is a parallel world, rather than a VR simulation. I can see this opening up the prospect of hopping between worlds and dimensions that will require at least a Season 5.

Nebula1400 | May 09, 22:16 CET

Mallory's been awesome. Technically 5 roles and all stellar.

Dusk | May 09, 22:23 CET

We know the Framework is an electronically created world because of the Tron effect we saw when Coulson jumped through the portal. (I have no idea why that effect happened or what it meant... presumably the natives of the Framework didn't perceive it.) But our world could be the same thing. Is the spinning top wobbling a bit? (Little Inception reference, there.)

I think the jury is still out on whether the Framework natives are sentient or just really convincing simulations. If so, it would be good news for Mack and Hope, and Ward, and Trip. But bad news for Fitz, who would now be confronted with the fact that he killed and tortured more than just 2 real people.

AndrewCrossett | May 09, 22:23 CET

Five? I only remember four.

Grack21 | May 09, 22:48 CET

What other Inhumans did Hydra experiment on ?

JDL | May 09, 22:51 CET

I would assume Yo-Yo doesn't have her Inhuman powers, since Daisy had to be "reactivated", if you will, by May & a Terrigen crystal.

BlueSkies9 | May 09, 22:52 CET

Aida 1.0
Aida 2.0
Agnes Kitsworth
Madame Hydra
Crazy Ophelia (hey, just like Hamlet only with superpowers)

AndrewCrossett | May 09, 22:56 CET

Aida 1 "Good Aida" killed by Mack, Aida 2 "Openly Evil" killed by Coulson, Agnes, Madame Hydra and now Human Ophelia.

Seems like Hydra got Gordon and Lincoln in the Framework and possibly Shockley's "back together" factor since she reassembled from 10 bullets so fast. Possibly VJ's initial speed too since we saw him in the machine in the Framework.

Framework Mace had Inhuman powers. With Elena strapped down like that it's probably known she has speed.

[ edited by Dusk on 2017-05-10 04:59 ]

Dusk | May 09, 22:59 CET

Oh, I guess I didn't really consider the two AIDAs separate.

Grack21 | May 09, 23:08 CET

I'd like to know why, if Ophelia can shrug off being shot multiple times, Jemma was able to drop her with an Icer. Maybe that's what they should be using against her? Ice her, then while she's down, cut off her head.

And if Coulson can do that with his shield, why didn't he do the same thing when he was fighting the other Ivanov bots?

AndrewCrossett | May 09, 23:15 CET

Ivanov's are connected to the human head. Trick would only work once.

Dusk | May 09, 23:18 CET

"Technically death by fisting?"

"Even underwater, Ophelia's sooo thirsty."

Dusk, you were on fire last night, LOL (and also, giant "Bwah haaaaah!" at the fisting comment...so wrong). :)

Ophelia's healing powers more likely come from Jiaying than put-back-together-again exploding Watchdog Shockley.

If Ophelia can duplicate a la Ginger-Ninja, SHIELD is definitely screwed.

On the one hand, cool that they're tying the entire season together. On the other, Ghost Rider feels like he's gonna turn out to be one giant flaming Deus Ex Machina. On the OTHER other hand, we needed better closure on Robbie Reyes and Luna IS a lot of fun in that role (and smoldering, no pun intended).

AIDA/Ophelia was sympathetic/having an interesting arc and her freakout (understandable, given that she's newly experiencing emotions all at once, without getting to learn them over a childhood and teenage years the way we get to -- she's basically a toddler, emotionally, experiencing her "Terrible Twos") appears to undercut that, maybe. Woman scorned ? Oh well, let's see how the finale plays out. I want it to get more emotionally in-depth when it comes to AIDA, though, or at least further embrace its weirdness and bust open everything about The Darkhold's influence on her.

Fantastic episode.

[ edited by Kris on 2017-05-10 09:10 ]

Kris | May 10, 03:09 CET

Wow, wow, wow. Totally floored by this episode. Not just the storytelling going on all cylinders but such emotionally and thematically satisfying storytelling. Stellar work from Malory Janson as "real" Ophelia/Aida. Iain de C and Elizabeth H were utterly heart-wrenching in their one wordless scene together. Oh, and Fitz' realization about Ward (nature vs nurture). My, oh, my, the slowburn of the Coulson & May relationship -- enjoying that very much indeed. And even if Ghost Rider is a deux ex machina, I don't care! Loved seeing him return through the Darkhold thingymabob.

punkinpuss | May 10, 08:00 CET

Ivanov's are connected to the human head. Trick would only work once.

All of the Ivanovs would be aware of the trick after the first time, but it would be hard to avoid it during a fistfight. Rather than trying to punch a robot into submission, Coulson might find it more effective to carve vital pieces off it.

AndrewCrossett | May 10, 08:26 CET

Great episode - as others have said, Mallory Janson has been stellar and delivered maybe her best performance with this episode. Iain, as usual, was terrific. I hope when this series ends (I'd like one more please, even if it's just a wrap up) that he gets some major movie roles -

Not particularly invested in Mack / YoYo, and the Ghost Rider twist seems shoe horned in ... but how this wraps for Aida,Fitz,Simmons will have me tuned in for the finale

TallMichaelJ | May 10, 08:27 CET

Se the only thing that throws it off is Jiaying needed contact with a healthy person to drain and heal herself, Ophelia doesn't.

Thanks, Kris.

[ edited by Dusk on 2017-05-10 14:31 ]

Dusk | May 10, 08:31 CET

The episode and everyone in it was amazing. But I also hope they get a little more nuanced or interesting other than Ophelia's sudden jealousy as motivation for her being evil.

NYPinTA | May 10, 10:25 CET

Oh, that's right Dusk, I forgot that about Jiaying's powers, about her being an energy/lifeforce vampire. Hmm...maybe another random Inhuman with healing powers was utilized in The Framework, then.

[ edited by Kris on 2017-05-11 10:14 ]

Kris | May 11, 04:14 CET

I love how no one here in the comments, NOT ONE PERSON, seems to have noted that Ivanov is MODOK.

We speculated about it back when AIDA cut off his head and put it in a jar. But then the show all but screams it, and nope! No one catches it.

He flat out called himself a machine "designed only for killing." And he used to be called "The Superior," which is a title MODOK once used. Guy's friggin' MODOK!

Batman1016 | May 11, 04:24 CET

Bluesky, my guess is that Yoyo's powers were intact in the Framework, which is why she was restrained. She got caught by Hydra.

Daisy didn't have her powers because her altered history didn't include getting them. Since there was a nationwide manhunt for Inhumans, that wasn't true for everyone.

Jason_M_Bryant | May 11, 07:20 CET

So do you think that The Superior, maybe aka MODOK, will be the big bad starting up next season? Because I'm thinking Ghost Rider is only there for Ophelia and the Darkhold.

NYPinTA | May 11, 10:04 CET

@NYPinTA: Nah. Ivanov is an inferior (no pun intended) villain and far less interesting than Aida or most of the villains on the show. I'm pretty sure he's going to be done in the finale - and even if he somehow survives, there's no way he's going to be the Big Bad, or even a really significant antagonist next season. The Big Bad has to be someone/something really big and threatening and new. Making Ivanov/MODOK/whatever the Big Bad for the next season would be like making Ian Quinn the Big Bad of season 2.

TimeTravellingBunny | May 11, 10:54 CET

Ivanov does seem to be a version of MODOK, but I think he'll be NODOK by the end of the next episode.

Nebula1400 | May 11, 11:12 CET

They did say they were not allowed to comment when asked if Ivanov was based on an existing Marvel character or not, so its certainly possible.

Grack21 | May 11, 11:58 CET

I think the MODOK stuff is intentional, but more an easter egg than the beginning of a new Big Bad. I think he's toast in the finale.

I believe Ghost Rider will destroy the Darkhold, but the regular cast members will kill Aidaphilia. They are the heroes and the final victory has to be theirs.

AndrewCrossett | May 11, 12:58 CET

@Nebula1400: Noodle Organism Designed Only for Killing?

I am very confused . . . . ;D

But I agree, I think he's definitely MODOK. I just think he's totally intended as a throw-away one-season villain, like Garrett (AKA Clairvoyant) or Whitehall (AKA Kraken) or Calvin (AKA Mr. Hyde). Certainly fine characters in their own right, but serving their purpose when all is said and done.

Know what I'm hoping for? Can we FINALLY get that whole Graviton dangling plot thread (from AAALLLL the way back in early season 1) back into the larger SHIELD tapestry?

Batman1016 | May 11, 20:39 CET

@Batman1016: That's what season 5 is for.

TimeTravellingBunny | May 11, 20:42 CET

@TimeTravellingBunny: I certainly HOPE so!

[ edited by Batman1016 on 2017-05-12 09:27 ]

Batman1016 | May 12, 03:26 CET

It's not that I'm invested in MODOK (maybe) being the next big bad. Just trying to figure how they'll finish everything and Ophelia and the Darkhold are priority. Plus they're down two with Yo Yo and Mack in the Framework. A good hive minded villain, if done well, could be a real challenge. (No slam on Hive-Ward, FYI.)

PS I hope they let Piper join the main team now that her team mates are gone. She's like a Mini-May.

NYPinTA | May 12, 11:47 CET

May 09 2017