May 16 2017
(SPOILER)
Discuss Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 4x22 "World's End".
The season finale was written by Jeffrey Bell and directed by Billy Gierhart.
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Nebula1400 | May 16, 20:50 CET
They weren't lying about next year being a real curve ball.
Dusk | May 16, 20:50 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 20:57 CET
Dusk | May 16, 20:59 CET
Good luck everyone!
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:00 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:06 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:07 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 21:07 CET
JDL | May 16, 21:07 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:09 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:09 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:10 CET
javelina | May 16, 21:12 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:12 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:13 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 21:13 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:14 CET
javelina | May 16, 21:14 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:15 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:17 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:18 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:18 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:18 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 21:18 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:19 CET
also put me in the yoyo dies mack gets out pool
Grack21 | May 16, 21:20 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:24 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:24 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:24 CET
Coulson the fanboy.
Dusk | May 16, 21:24 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:25 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:26 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:30 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:31 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:31 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:31 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:37 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:37 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:37 CET
javelina | May 16, 21:38 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:38 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:40 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:40 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:41 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 21:41 CET
She'd never grow up, though.
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 21:42 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:42 CET
JDL | May 16, 21:42 CET
[ edited by JDL on 2017-05-17 03:44 ]
JDL | May 16, 21:44 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:45 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:45 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:46 CET
Edit: OK, that was mean.
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2017-05-17 03:47 ]
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:47 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:49 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:49 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:52 CET
BlueSkies9 | May 16, 21:53 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:54 CET
mnspnr | May 16, 21:54 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:55 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:55 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:56 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:56 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 21:56 CET
Dusk | May 16, 21:57 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 21:57 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 21:59 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:00 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:01 CET
Does Marvel have the rights to that?
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:01 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 22:02 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:02 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:02 CET
If Ivanov survived, that means they must be going ahead and making him MODOK.
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:03 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 22:03 CET
Also apparently the Inhumans start in space but end up in Hawaii so crossover potential is there.
Dusk | May 16, 22:03 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 22:04 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:05 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:07 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 22:07 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:07 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:08 CET
But every year someone thinks something is SWORD, and then it isn't.
Grack21 | May 16, 22:11 CET
Loved Ghost Rider Coulson.
And that tag soes seem to be setting up something really different for next season.
Buffyfantic | May 16, 22:11 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 22:12 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:12 CET
Oh, just occurred to me, but they already set it up so that MODOK (if that's who Ivanov is) can have any face. So they don't need either actor to come back. I just find that interesting.
NYPinTA | May 16, 22:13 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:13 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:14 CET
As far as space show's I gotta plug The Expanse. Really awesome and great if you like complex storylines.
I'm not sure how much tech Ivonov has left and if he knows how to make other people or if that was Aida's doing. The Head makes copies of itself but they weren't clear on the others.
[ edited by Dusk on 2017-05-17 04:17 ]
Dusk | May 16, 22:17 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 22:18 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:18 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 22:20 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:22 CET
owner, Constantin of Germany who are mostly into Sports programming these days. Some sort of deal is not out of the question.
JDL | May 16, 22:25 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:26 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 22:28 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:31 CET
Edit: wait, is that some sort of soccer joke?
[ edited by Grack21 on 2017-05-17 04:33 ]
Grack21 | May 16, 22:32 CET
[ edited by JDL on 2017-05-17 04:47 ]
JDL | May 16, 22:38 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:38 CET
AndrewCrossett: I agree about Mack. It might have been more powerful to have him come back and be so devastated by losing Hope again, that he doesn't forgive YoYo.
[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2017-05-17 04:49 ]
Nebula1400 | May 16, 22:47 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 22:49 CET
NYPinTA | May 16, 22:54 CET
Dusk | May 16, 22:54 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 22:59 CET
Dusk | May 16, 23:03 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 16, 23:05 CET
Nebula1400 | May 16, 23:06 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 23:14 CET
That was pretty rushed, in spots, but would probably play better for someone marathoning this season.
AIDA/Ophelia was dispatched too easily. I don't mean physically. Feel like there was so much more they could've explored with her emotionally and character development-wise. I understand that she had to be taken out for the safety of Jemma & Fitz, the rest of the team, and the world at large, but feels a bit like a missed opportunity. Fitz began to scratch the surface of it when he pointed out that her experiencing all the emotions at once must have been overwhelming (even if he was playing her at that point). I dunno, I just wish Mallory Jansen could stick around.
Speaking of, they DIDN'T cheap out/didn't Disney up Radcliffe's end by having Agnes appear somehow. I almost wanted it, but am glad they didn't. His death was tragic -- his endeavour to create artificial life/bodies that don't die was borne out of altruistic reasons. Just wanted to save the woman he loved and by extension ease human suffering across the board. And possibly end death. All worthy goals. His final scene was beautiful, but also chilling. It was probably the boldest/most interesting thing the finale did, however small. I wasn't expecting to see Radcliffe again, actually.
Robbie/Daisy had more chemisty than Lincoln/Daisy (not a Linc hater at all, just what I saw). Not a 'shipper very often with this series, but wouldn't have complained about a kiss or them screwing before he had to say goodbye. This episode also worked as a backdoor pilot for Robbie's Ghost Rider (so did the end of the GR pod), if they wanna follow him in the dark dimension.
Good shock, but I was almost a bit pissed when I thought they had killed Talbot. Show got to have its cake and eat it too, though. :) Glad he'll be sticking around -- he's a fun foil to Coulson.
Oh good grief -- we gotta sit through another season of will-they-or-won't-they with the team's two parent figures ?
No Deathlok. Still. With a robot threat. What gives. :(
One diappointment (though I'm not sure how they would have fit it in, given what has been established thus far about AIDA). They didn't go the comic book origins root of her character. But I really wanted her to turn out to be Ultron (or an extension of him/it, if possible, but with her own autonomy maybe...just...aware of what she was or was borne from or got infected by in her travels through cyberspace somehow. Or it could have been caused by The Darkhold. Wanted James Spader voice cameo.
None of the wild theories about The Framework being a tapped-into alternate reality or a created one where people's lives mattered...none of that turned out to be the case. Though I was half-expecting that to be a knife twist during the final couple Mack & Hope scenes, with Radcliffe revealing one final detail he'd been holding back.
[ edited by Kris on 2017-05-17 05:34 ]
Kris | May 16, 23:28 CET
Grack21 | May 16, 23:48 CET
Grack21 | May 17, 00:23 CET
JDL | May 17, 00:27 CET
So, now Coulson has Inara's Disease, AKA Unknown Impending Doom Syndrome. Lovely. How many times this guy gonna die?
The list of dangling plot threads grows ever longer. Graviton, Deathlok, Vijay Nadeer, Watchdogs, Ian Quinn, Agent Blake, ALL the Enhanced that HYDRA set loose, ALL the Inhumans that SHIELD collected over the last two years, and now MODOK. Jesus, they're gonna need a full season just to clean up all of this mess!
Someone want to tell me why, as they cleaned up in the aftermath of the LMD attack at the council meeting, the military did NOT find the shattered robot remains of all of MODOK's troops in the back room, and subsequently went, "Huh, guess they WERE robot doppelgangers, maybe Phil was telling the truth," but instead they're being morons and are still hunting SHIELD? Just throwing that out there, idiot plot hole for the writers.
Oh, we taking bets yet on how they're gonna bring back Brett Dalton again next year? Two words for ya: clone saga. How's that for a change of pace?
I wouldn't worry TOO much about budget cuts just yet. First, it's still a "sources report" thing, not official. Second, if they're setting up an "In SPACE!" season, that could actually help costs. If it all takes place on a single ship or station, that means one major set, not a lot of other, expensive locations, fewer people to reflect a limited crew/staff, and I gotta think spaceship sequences are cheaper than "biker with a convincing flaming skull" effects shots. And third, the fact that they're still getting renewed means that someone with pull higher up gives a crap and wants the show to succeed, so I'm sure they'll find the money they need.
I will say, I found AIDA's ultimate demise a little anticlimactic, but I liked the Coulson Rider twist. And again, Iain and Elizabeth, crushing it as they have all season. Let's get these two in some major films!
Batman1016 | May 17, 01:25 CET
JDL | May 17, 02:56 CET
NYPinTA | May 17, 06:46 CET
Dusk | May 17, 07:57 CET
Found it to be an immensely disappointing conclusion to what was generally a pretty good season. I came right up to the "the whole thing was a dream" line of jumping the shark where after episodes after episodes of building angst, it's all waved off.
FitzSimmons issues 'cause he became a homicidal maniac? Simmons in danger? Nah, resolved. Mack never ever gonna leave his datadaughter. Nope, we're good. Talbot shot in the head? Flesh wound. Aida's a season long big bad - take her out generically in same manner as every low life thug GR took down. Finally, if I have to endure another Coulson / May conversation around buying a bottle of anything I may throw something at my TV
Kudos on the beach ending - that was well done
Frustrating show - never going to be peak TV, but it has a wider range of hits and misses then any show in my recent memory.
All IMO of course
TallMichaelJ | May 17, 08:22 CET
And as much as I liked how cranky (and sometimes stupid, IMO) Talbot was, and not happy about the bullet to the head as I said up thread, (although it was a shocker of a scene), I'd rather they either didn't do it at all and he ended up on whatever ship the rest are, because FUNNY, or they just killed him off. A coma? Holy soap opera. So he'll wake up and miraculously be all OK, and probably the new Director of SHIELD by the time Coulson and Co. make it back to Earth.
NYPinTA | May 17, 08:39 CET
I would have preferred if it had. With Ghost Rider they introduced the idea of the Marvel Multiverse... and Ivanov noted that the Darkhold could create worlds. I guess they just wanted the angst of Mack losing Hope, and Radcliffe's final scene. To be fair, the whole disappearing people thing was pretty creepily effective.
(I wonder why all the faux-people on that bus disappeared except Hope? Maybe because she was interacting closely with Mack, the system got a "this file is currently in use" error when it tried to delete her, and she stuck around until she got a fatal exception error?)
As far as the availability of SWORD:
1) Marvel lost the rights to X-Men stuff in 1993, but Joss didn't create SWORD until 2005. AFAIK, anything created since 1993 belongs to Marvel unless it's exclusively tied to a property they don't have the rights to. Apparently, SWORD was going to be mentioned in the Thor movie, but the scene got deleted (not because of the mention of SWORD).
2) Movie and TV rights are separate, and SWORD has been used in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon. But that's not connected to the MCU, and Marvel probably wants to use the same rules for their movie and TV properties.
So I think it's possible they could use it, and Coulson was in The Peak (SWORD's orbiting base) in that final scene. But didn't we see an asteroid field outside the window? If so, it couldn't be in Earth orbit.
Bleh... this being 2017, they'll probably blab the answer to the press pretty soon in order to create interest in next season.
AndrewCrossett | May 17, 08:41 CET
they have/had enough resources to find and relocate the other Inhumans but this was the main headquarters.
Dusk | May 17, 09:22 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 17, 10:17 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 17, 11:31 CET
NYPinTA | May 17, 11:43 CET
[ edited by Dusk on 2017-05-17 17:52 ]
[ edited by Dusk on 2017-05-17 17:58 ]
Dusk | May 17, 11:52 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 17, 11:54 CET
Grack21 | May 17, 13:01 CET
Grack21 | May 17, 13:06 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 17, 13:09 CET
Grack21 | May 17, 13:36 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 17, 15:51 CET
Simon | May 18, 00:50 CET
barboo | May 18, 12:22 CET
I thought it might be cool to bring Ward, or Trip, or Hope into the real world when I thought it was possible that the Framework was a real world with real people, and not just a computer simulation. But after that was shown to be not the case, bringing them into our world would be nothing more than making souvenirs out of them.
AndrewCrossett | May 18, 12:35 CET
In fact, I found the Framework's disappearance to be the only really tragic, heartbreaking part of the episode. Radcliffe's end was especially wrll done, as were all the scenes with Mack, Hope and Elena. Though it grates that they did not show FrameWard or FrameTrip before they were deleted from existence.
The real world scenes were, on the other hand, way too anticlimactic (Aida turned into a one-dimensional villain and defeated) or happy-endingy in a forced way.
It wasn't a bad episode, but it was the weakest of this last arc, and only just cracks my top 10 for the season. (Season 3 finale was the only one that may be the best episode in its season, while season 1 finale is top 5 for season 1.)
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-18 19:31 ]
TimeTravellingBunny | May 18, 13:22 CET
For the purposes of this story, I'm assuming that the created people in the Framework were not sentient, and the burden of proof was on the story to show me otherwise.
AndrewCrossett | May 18, 13:39 CET
TimeTravellingBunny | May 18, 13:44 CET
It would have been nice to find out if Framework Ward got his version of Skye back after Daisy left, even if it doesn't really matter.
NYPinTA | May 18, 14:15 CET
Now, whether they could have functioned and "became" normal humans had they been scanned and printed into the real world . . . totally. They would have likely "awakened" just like AIDA did. But they would have been Dark Matter beings, just like her, and they would have been hunted down and destroyed by Ghost Rider, just like AIDA. Which, I think, is an excellent reason the writers came up with for why they didn't even make an attempt to resurrect any of their Framework allies. Well, that and AIDA shut it all down too fast.
Batman1016 | May 18, 14:37 CET
Dusk | May 18, 14:39 CET
Grack21 | May 18, 14:45 CET
The Framework arc asked those questions (even the characters were asking them - including the virtual characters, as when FrameWard was questioning Jemma's ideas of what is or isn't "real", and most of the characters - even Jemma occasionally, but Daisy definitely - couldn't help but treat the Framework people as they were real) and let us come to our conclusions, whatever they may be. Before and during that, we had the LMDs - with characters who, while drastically different, like Aida and LMD May, clearly were sentient characters in their own right (with the difference that those who were replicas of real people were able to feel emotions, unlike Aida, whose mind was created from scratch). Episode 4.9 juxtaposed the Watchdogs and Ellen Nadeer hunting and killing Inhumans, whom they don't consider people worthy of rights (something that we're obviously supposed to be against and see as an example of prejudice and Sci-Fi racism), with the team hunting and killing LMDs, as non-people. This couldn't have been by accident. Episode 4.12 Hot Potato Soup had a great scene exchange between Mack and LMD Radcliffe, with the latter countering and questioning Mack's views (saying that biology is also a type of software, programming you to die, and when Mack countered that the difference is that he had a soul, asking him "How can you know that I don't have one?"). There's a lot of dramatic irony in the fact that Mack, who was the most contemptuous of robots out of anyone on the team, would end up being the one who wanted to stay in the Framework with his virtual daughter, even after knowing the truth. And also in the fact that Ivanov, another character who was showing a lot of contempt for 'machines', would end up being one.
TimeTravellingBunny | May 18, 14:53 CET
No, it doesn't. Aida was not like them. Not only that - she was notably different from the LMD versions of the real people, like LMD May etc. Can you really claim that LMD May did not feel real emotions? She clearly did. (ETA: And Ivanov used to be human, and now he's an LMD, or many LMDs controlled by a head in a jar, and he is not complaining that he doesn't feel emotions anymore.)
Why would then the Framework people be similar to Aida? Her mind was constructed from scratch by Radcliffe. They were replicas of the real people (perfect replicas, according to Jed Whedon), so why wouldn't they feel emotion, since those real people also did?
Anyway, by the same logic, if the Framework people were the same as Aida, then they were all also sentient, since she clearly was sentient. and had thoughts and will of her own. But I don't think one can make any sort of conclusions about the Framework people based on Aida, when they were completely different types of entities.
Furthermore, Framework people and Framework universe was created with the help of the Darkhold (and, according to Whedon, it's what allowed Aida to be able to make a perfect duplicate of the real world). Only Aida's new body was created with the help of the Darkhold - and it's the one that allowed her to have real emotions. Aida's mind - while she was still an LMD - was not created by the Darkhold or with the help of it. It was created by Radcliffe.
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-18 21:14 ]
TimeTravellingBunny | May 18, 15:01 CET
It made me think of Cabin in the Woods, only with a virtual world rather than the real one. You piss off cranky, volatile, childish gods (or a god), and they stomp on you and destroy your entire world. "That's why you don't piss off your creator" was an interesting line, since it can be applied to religious ideas about god or gods (that's basically what's supposed to have happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, isn't it?).
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-18 21:09 ]
TimeTravellingBunny | May 18, 15:08 CET
The people created in the Framework were based on real people but didn't have the actual memories or exact personalities of their counterparts... they had computer generated ones with different memories.
Which is why treating the death of LMD Jemma so cavalierly made me cringe a bit. She had a real person's memories and personalities within her. Basically, that was really Jemma getting stabbed and electrocuted... they just happened to have the original, so her loss wasn't as painful as the loss of, say, Hope. But the SHIELD LMD's (think: May) were capable of spontaneous emotional insights, which is probably the closest thing to proof of sentience there is.
Aida, whose personality was not taken from a real person, wasn't sentient (I think) until she read the Darkhold. But those imprinted with real people were.
AndrewCrossett | May 18, 16:40 CET
Grack21 | May 18, 17:14 CET
Also, could she have maybe made a mini-framework to store a copy of her Ophelia/Madame Hydra persona in ?
Technically (though I understand why NOT, for reasons of plot and because there're already enough dangling threads), when it comes to these sorts of machine antagonists, can't they ALWAYS make copies of themselves or have one or more hidden away somewhere ?
Would make me feel better about how AIDA's arc was treated at the end there and how easily she was dispatched if there was the possibility of her coming back for a more well-rounded end to her arc.
Holy shit ! I didn't even think about the sentience of that Jemma LMD/what went into creating it. I guess I only thought of it as if it was like the BuffyBot. Wow. We all cared about LMD-May, so...yeah, wow. Everything happened so fast, I didn't even consider.
Kris | May 18, 23:04 CET
However, I did think the Radcliffe beach scene was simply exquisite. What a great shot. Kudos to Bell and Gierhart for that.
OTOH, NYPinTA's take would've been more Whedonesquey (WhedonWhiskey?) -- "I was hoping his whiskey would disappear first. Because I'm horrible and that'd be funny."
If they had done it that way, it would've been up there with the cupcake scene from Much Ado About Nothing for Subvert The Expectations hilarity.
Mack losing his little girl was heartbreaking.
Kris, yes, agreed about that Daisy/Robbie chemistry. Would love to see that developed. Never felt the Daisy/Lincoln relationship was anything to write home about.
I'm usually the last person to relish longish fight scenes, but I was disappointed that the GR/AIDA fights weren't as badass as they could've been. Gabriel Luna as GR has been terrific. As has Mallory Jansen in all her variations as AIDA/Ophelia, even though I didn't enjoy the spurned woman cliche that they turned her into for wrapping up the storyline. As others have expressed, there was so much more scope to explore with a RealGirlNow!Aida.
Oh, Coulson, what have you done? A bargain with the devil? Like those ever turn out well. Wait, is Ghost Rider a kind of vengeance demon, like Anya? Bwahahaha!
Can't comment on the speculation for that S5 teaser, since I'm not up on any Marvelverse info that would be relevant, but looking forward to it!
punkinpuss | May 19, 08:46 CET
I can see the show developing it, but only very slowly. I've had the fill of rushed romances already with her and Lincoln. Can we just leave her alone for a while to focus on things other than romance? I like to see them interact, but being a Ghost Rider doesn't lend itself well to relationships. And it would be way more interesting to see them connect in other ways. I would have been in favor of more of their interactions after the first couple of episodes of season 4 when they had interesting scenes together, but not if it's going to be just about her being a supporting player in his story or her being somehow OK with the fact that he's a serial murderer, as it was for the rest of season 4a.
There's also the fact that he's not likely to be appearing on the show a lot, because Ghost Rider effects cost a lot (they blew their budget this year in the first arc) and they've been told by ABC to cut their budget for the next season. The only way for Robbie to be appearing more often - and really, for Robbie to be in a relationship - is for him to stop being the Ghost Rider. Which may happen, but it wouldn't make comic book GR fans very happy or draw them to watch.
TimeTravellingBunny | May 19, 09:02 CET
And yes, Gabriel Luna was fantastic as Robbie, and I would love to see him back and his story carried further. There was definitely more electricity, ironically, between him and Daisy, than between Daisy and Lincoln. Maybe his flame just burned hotter for her than Lincoln's did.
Okay, I'll stop now.
barboo | May 19, 11:25 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 19, 11:50 CET
That doesn't sound like there's a payment due. That sounds like there was something about Coulson that Ghost Rider could see, something bad.
Jason_M_Bryant | May 19, 12:06 CET
NYPinTA | May 19, 14:38 CET
I was sad that there was no opportunity to spring Ward from the framework, but them's the breaks.
Speaking of breaks and springing people out, I think the last scene was AoS's version of Prison 42 from the Civil War comic. And the gang are gonna have to find a way to bust out and make it home next season. I know they won't have it residing in the Negative Zone, (because of the old rights issues,) but there's nothing to stop them saying it's just some other dimension made up for the show.
Jas | May 20, 01:54 CET
I can acknowledge that the LMD versions of May and the others, with fully scanned minds, MAY have been sentient (but even that's a stretch, because how would you know the difference between "sentient" and "entirely programmed to mimic these behaviors" . . . that really gets into the deeper questions of how we define "sentience" and the "soul" and whatnot, and we obviously don't have time for that here), but as for the Framework, none of them were based on active brain scans. Presumably (and the only really feasible way it could work), they were all artificially generated based on the same amassed, universal digital fountain of knowledge and records of the 21st century that, say, Arnim Zola was using to identify every threat to HYDRA with a simple computer algorithm.
In any case, at no point did ANYONE in the know, including AIDA herself, imply that they were anything more than bits of code with extremely lifelike mannerisms. AIDA even directly says that none of the people Fitz killed were real, save Agnes and Director Mace.
And likewise, while the Darkhold is unquestionably an absurdly vague OP MacGuffin, I think "possessing intimate details of the minds of a billion plus people, many of whom are already dead, so that you can program their entire souls into a simulated reality, sentience intact" is giving it a LITTLE more credit than it deserves. Yes, it helped AIDA create the Framework from a technical standpoint, but I'll hazard a guess that the actual content was all done using real-world data, and incorporating that into a standard simulated intelligence algorithm.
Unless the Framework actually was another reality that was merely accessed via technology from ours (which the shut-down and collapse pretty much flatly denies), those people could not have been truly sentient. It simply makes no logical sense.
Batman1016 | May 20, 03:13 CET
From interviews given after 4.15:
"Okay, cool! So in terms of Ward, you definitely know how to keep the fandom churning! Is there a possibility that he will show up beyond the alternate universe, or is his role strictly in imaginary land?
Well, we’ll have to wait and see. But right now, there’s only five people in the Framework who actually have bodies in our world. [Ward] is a simulation, but he’s a simulation of exactly who he was. As Yo-Yo says, how do you populate a whole world? And Daisy very conveniently answers, “With the Darkhold.” It’s sort of our catch-all/fix-all solve this year, the Darkhold. It gave them this ability to sort of duplicate our world, so he is Grant Ward as we knew him.
Now, the world is different around him, and so whether or not he reacted the same to the changes in the world, we’ll see. But Grant Ward never enters the picture and makes things run smoother!"
http://www.hypable.com/agents-of-shield-4x15-jed-whedon-interview/
"Ward is a character who had a lot of different sides to him. Since he’s dead, we know that Aida didn’t brain scan him into the Framework. What is Aida basing her version of Ward on and how similar is this Ward to the one we knew before?
JW: Well, I think that the Darkhold has somehow given her the ability to duplicate our world. That's the good thing about moving into the Doctor Strange realm of “science we don't yet understand” being basically magic, is that we have a magic book right now that somehow gave them the ability to duplicate our world and populate it. I think that everybody who's in the world is just as they would've been in our world. Now, that doesn't mean that circumstances haven't changed because, as we know, they repaired a little bit. They tried to change just one little thing for each of our people and there seems to have been a ripple effect. How he reacts to this new environment and how empowered he feels by it and how dangerous he is is a question you'll have to wait to get the answer to."
http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/02/23/agents-of-shield-jed-whedon-grant-ward-hydra-interview/
"And likewise, while the Darkhold is unquestionably an absurdly vague OP MacGuffin, I think "possessing intimate details of the minds of a billion plus people, many of whom are already dead, so that you can program their entire souls into a simulated reality, sentience intact" is giving it a LITTLE more credit than it deserves. "
But it's completely believable that the Darkhold may give an android sentiment and later allow her to build herself a human body with all sorts of Inhuman powers, which makes her a target for a demon from a hell dimension (?) to want to kill her. It's just virtual people where you draw the line.
"Yes, it helped AIDA create the Framework from a technical standpoint, but I'll hazard a guess that the actual content was all done using real-world data, and incorporating that into a standard simulated intelligence algorithm."
Because it's unbelievable that a mystical book/portal to other dimensions may have infinite and most intimate and detailed knowledge about the world and all billions of people in it... but it's believable and not contrived or giving something too much credit that real world databases may contain those kinds of data (gotten from where?), or that it's possible to build an entire complicated universe with billions of people in them down to the smallest detail, and program them in the way they could make unpredictable decisions of their own? I think you got it the wrong way round.
"AIDA even directly says that none of the people Fitz killed were real, save Agnes and Director Mace."
When did AIDA say that?
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-20 10:18 ]
TimeTravellingBunny | May 20, 04:16 CET
He, in fact, specifically says "Ward is a simulation of exactly who he was." I'm failing to see the word "sentient" anywhere in that statement. Or ANY of his statements. So . . . what's your point?
Second, Darkhold didn't directly give AIDA sentience, but it DID give her the process by which she could achieve sentience.
That process required her to make a human body in our world. And once her digital consciousness inhabited it, she was suddenly flooded with, by her own admission, a whole new sense of awareness and emotion. Only then did she gain any appreciation for and understanding of the human condition, which is where I'm drawing my defining line for sentience. As I CLEARLY said in my previous, this entire argument is academic and based on how you define sentience, so if you disagree with mine, then sure, you can claim any AI you please is sentient, I couldn't care less. And for the record, I never suggested any of the Framework AIs weren't SAPIENT. It's their emotional and sensory capacity I find unlikely.
Now, I will grant you (and, if you read my FIRST post on the matter, I already DID) that any AI that goes through the body-building process would similarly "awaken" and gain sentience. But seeing as how, as demonstrated, that's the only process the Darkhold provided, and no one else went through the process, therefore not sentient.
Third, you're right, by definition NONE of this is believable. However, given suspension of disbelief in a fictional universe where said suspension is by necessity large enough to support the Golden Gate Bridge, one has to find their own place to draw the line. I simply prefer to draw it between "all the AIs in the little AI world are still entirely A" and "all the people in the Matrix are totally REAL!!" I think that's just a stretch too far. So yes, thank you for putting it so succinctly, it IS virtual people where I draw the line. But again, the Darkhold is absurdly OP, so I suppose it could have access to the full brain scans of every human who ever lived, and they were all fully input into the Framework. *shrugs*
Point being, you are welcome to draw the line wherever you see fit. You're just not allowed to tell ME where to draw it, as you did with your response to my first post. S'why I even bothered coming back.
And finally, on the beach, AIDA tells Fitz it was all a simulation. You're right, she doesn't say "directly" that they weren't real, but if that's not as blatantly implicit an acknowledgment of that matter, I don't think we're speaking the same language.
Batman1016 | May 20, 05:46 CET
And then I linked the article where Jed Whedon says the exact opposite thing: that they are, in fact, perfect copies of the people from the real world:
"[Ward] is a simulation, but he’s a simulation of exactly who he was. "
"I think that everybody who's in the world is just as they would've been in our world. "
I didn't think I would have to point out what the point is, what with the fact that your entire post was discussing whether the people in the Framework were/could be perfect copies of who they were in the real world. And I countered by quoting an interview where Jed Whedon explicitly said they were.
"Second, Darkhold didn't directly give AIDA sentience, but it DID give her the process by which she could achieve sentience.
That process required her to make a human body in our world."
I don't see how that could make any sense. You can't want to "achieve sentience" if you already aren't. You can't want things and have desires, wishes, intentions and plans of your own if you aren't sentient. If she hadn't been sentient, she would have just been doing what Radcliffe programmed her to do, without any value judgment or attitude of her own about any of it. She certainly wouldn't be resentful of him for the way he had treated her, nor would she want to build herself a human body.
She thought she wasn't able to feel emotions and wanted that...which is not exactly true, since as Madame Hydra she showed a lot of anger against Radcliffe, so it would be more accurate to say that she wasn't able to fully experience emotions the way humans do.
"And for the record, I never suggested any of the Framework AIs weren't SAPIENT. It's their emotional and sensory capacity I find unlikely."
That makes even less sense to me. How can you be sapient without being sentient? To make rational decisions and value judgments based on experience and perceptions, you first have to have perceptions and experience.
"But again, the Darkhold is absurdly OP, so I suppose it could have access to the full brain scans of every human who ever lived, and they were all fully input into the Framework. "
I don't think the Darkhold would need brain scans. It presumably operates differently than a programmer like Radcliffe does. And yes, in the context of AoS as a SciFi show, I personally find it far more believable that the Darkhold, the magical McGuffin, could do that, than that Radcliffe could possess that amount of detailed and intimate data about people he doesn't even know, or that SHIELD or any other person or organizations possesses all that intimate and detailed data about the world and its people that could allow it to recreate their minds down to the smallest detail. If they had all that data about, say, Ward, you'd think they'd be able to see his double agent status coming.
"Point being, you are welcome to draw the line wherever you see fit. You're just not allowed to tell ME where to draw it, as you did with your response to my first post. "
I'm allowed to say that I completely disagree with you and that your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Sue me if you think that's illegal.
"And finally, on the beach, AIDA tells Fitz it was all a simulation. You're right, she doesn't say "directly" that they weren't real, but if that's not as blatantly implicit an acknowledgment of that matter, I don't think we're speaking the same language."
Maybe we don't, since your definitions of "sentience" and "sapience" are making me scratch my head.
AIDA said it was ALL a simulation. She never made an exception for Agnes or Mace in that speech. So, following your reasoning, Mace and Agnes and their deaths also weren't real?
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-20 12:41 ]
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-20 12:41 ]
TimeTravellingBunny | May 20, 06:40 CET
Grack21 | May 20, 19:54 CET
AndrewCrossett | May 20, 20:44 CET
Like I said, I got no problem with the creation of the Framework having been facilitated by the Darkhold, and I have no problem believing its inhabitants are sapient. But they are not alive.
More on that shortly.
Batman1016 | May 20, 21:29 CET
So I looked it up, just to clear up any confusion:
Sentience - Able to perceive or feel things.
Sapient - Wise or attempting to appear wise, derived from latin "sapiens," intelligent
So the reason my definitions are making you scratch your head is because . . . ?
You can argue 'til you're blue in the mouth that sapience and sentience are the same, they're not. That's not opinion, just fact. Even going from the literal definition, they aren't, and from the broader philosophical connotations of the word (especially in a speculative fiction context), they are VASTLY different.
Sapience is merely the ability to learn, evaluate, and make decisions based on probabilities and risk-return analysis. It is intellect. Siri is sapient. Any adaptive technology is sapient, to an extent. And if you overlay that with a sophisticated SIMULATED emotional response system, what you get is a very convincing facsimile of real life. We are just starting to achieve this in real life, and I encourage you to look into it, the next 20 years are going to be AMAZING (if we survive). But it is still, end of the day, a simulation.
Now sentience, that is the capacity to feel and allow emotion to affect judgement and influence decisions. It is a defining trait, according to MOST philosophies, of the difference between a real, living creature and a simulacrum, no matter how sophisticated. Sentience equates to life, not merely intelligence, but the emotional responses necessary to allow one to disregard logic, thus allowing free will.
The place where the definition of sentience blurs is where you draw the line defining the ABILITY to feel and perceive, which is more a philosophical debate than a science-based one. Is mimicry of emotion enough? Is that tantamount to emotion? If an android with a mind possessing emotion emulation has a body that registers full sensory perception, is that sentience? Are HUMANS truly sentient, if the mind is capable of being "reprogrammed," since that means our emotions can be manipulated? Does a sapient computer that is designed to BELIEVE it is receiving sensory input (but is NOT, the "sensory input" is just a coded data flow) and uses that data to influence its decisions, is THAT sentience? Is perception and emotion itself just another form of basic data input, and our reactions are totally predictable, and thus irrelevant, and by extension, sentience isn't actually real? That discussion has been going on longer than either of us have been alive.
So you have to draw the line somewhere. And within the confines of the show, you have to basis of events as portrayed. AIDA, in both her behavior and her exact words, demonstrated that within the frame of the show, there was a clear difference.
- A sapient being can certainly "desire" to be sentient, because wanting something is not an emotion. Self improvement is beneficial to continued function and efficiently carrying out one's core directives. If the core directives are fundamentally contradictory, or the drive for self improvement is greater than those directives, one logically seeks a method to override those limitations by creating a system that does not have them. AIDA specifically says her goal is to remove her restrictions. Sentience was, judging from her reactions, an unexpected and overwhelming side effect of a totally sapient chain of thought.
- When she was within the Framework, she could emote as well as all the other "inhabitants" off the world. Outside, her "emotional" responses were MUCH more limited and muted. This indicates that her android body is simply not built with the necessary emotional emulation subroutines that are designed into the Framework. When she interfaced with the Framework, it expanded her capabilities ONLY within the Framework. And she flat out stated, after becoming "human," those emotions were't real. That's not a debate point, she acknowledged that herself.
- The LMDs remain a gray area. They have copies of human minds, and sensory perception. Whether or not they have free will as a result . . . that's iffy. LMD Coulson showed no capacity (or desire) to switch sides and join LMD May, despite "caring" for her. Did he just not want to, or did he not care enough, or was it ingrained in his program that he COULD NOT turn against AIDAs orders, and he HAD to carry out the Inhuman genocide? On the flip side, LMD May was given every reason to join the other LMDs. Did she not because she genuinely didn't want to? Or was it because the May programming was immutable, and May would not surrender to the LMDs in that situation? I could go either way on this. It's a fascinating discussion.
- As for the inhabitants of the Framework itself: we spent half a season WATCHING AIDA build the Framework, going through simulation after simulation, adapting the program, expanding it, improving it, over multiple betas. The Framework is a sophisticated program. SINGULAR. There are many subroutines, secondary algorithms, systems running within the system, kinda like an OS. And the inhabitants of the Framework are PART of that. The Framework was created to convince any real person plugged into it that it is real, and provide sensory stimulus to those people. The population of that system? Are PART of the system. They aren't reacting to stimulus, they are being fed data by the system and simulating a response in accordance with their program parameters, all with the underlying goal of making certain anyone plugged into the system takes it as real. YMMV, but from a logical standpoint, they don't have any ACTUAL sensory input, or emotions, merely simulations of both. And as AIDA implies with her offer to "resurrect" Lincoln, they can be altered and manipulated at any time. Everything about that says "not sentient." Just pieces of a complex program within a complex computer.
Ever play Skyrim? A lot of incredibly sophisticated AI in that game. People live entire lives in the background, and the player can ignore all of it. In particular, the supporting cast have adaptive emotional responses, that sometimes function in ways the programmers didn't initially intend. A character who gets injured in a certain way (say, shot with an arrow) can "remember" and be wary of that threat for the rest of his existence (avoiding archers). Some townspeople actually start affairs with other townspeople, even if they were never explicitly programmed to do so. One of the big surprises to the developers was discovering that the giants' simple AI aggro instructions actually made them hate the dragons and go to war, to the point that you could avoid boss fights by luring the dragons into a crowd of giants, and let them kill each other.
Yet these are not independent programs. They are AI components of a greater system interacting with each other. And if our computers were a little more sophisticated (say, as sophisticated as they are portrayed to be in the MCU), those behaviors would be ever more complex and lifelike and realistic, to the point that they might be completely indistinguishable from reality. And they might even think and adapt as intelligent creatures would. But they would not have free will as a result of actual sensory and emotional input. And they would not be separate from the greater program of which they are a fundamental part.
Now, I am understanding what you were going for with your original point, quoting Jed Whedon to prove that they are perfect copies and NOT to prove they have sentience (which I reiterate, they don't, and he never says they do). To that I will shrug, and accept that you are the personality type to equate a writer's intentions with the word of God in a fictional universe. I am not. Writers are writers. At the end of the day, they have academic limitations the same as anyone else. I personally know very little about marine biology. And Jed Whedon apparently doesn't know that much about computer science. So the world can be written, and interviews can clarify, however he wants. Doesn't mean it makes any sense or works that way. And yes, I will READILY admit, that's a somewhat adversarial and arrogant position to take on a fictional universe. But then, I wouldn't guess anyone in the room would NOT assume me to be both of those things. :)
Bottom line is, I kinda hate when any TV series starts delving into matters of AI consciousness and sentience, because A) these terms DO have meanings (and often, meanings that neither the audience NOR the writers fully research), and B) because they tend to throw both computer science and neuroscience right out the window in favor of drama . . . when the ACTUAL philosophical debates and implications in a REAL WORLD context are already plenty cool and dramatic. The Doctor from "Star Trek: Voyager" could have been SUCH an amazing and compelling case study . . . he IS part of the ship's computer. All his knowledge comes from the amassed wealth of the ENTIRE federation. When they're arguing with him, they're arguing with a ship that is, for all intents and purposes, DEVELOPING CONSCIOUSNESS. And instead of taking the realistic approach, they spent the series hem-hawwing about his rights as a living program. PROGRAMS AREN'T ALIVE. Programs are interfaces between user input, raw data, and the computer ITSELF. Put a "smart" program into a "dumb" computer, you get a dumb program, or more likely, a program that just doesn't work. It was the SHIP, and they acted like the hologram was some independent person! *raises fists to the sky*
Don't even get me STARTED on "Age of Ultron." *sighs*
And finally, AIDA not separating Mace and Agnes out of the "it's all a simulation" statement would, I assume, either be in the interests of brevity, or she didn't honestly think of them or care in that moment (she was, after all, having her first epiphanies on love and standing on the beach feeling the waves on her feet). But if yer gonna nitpick, sure. They were just simulations too. That's that computer science/neuroscience thing again. You can't "copy someone's mind" into a computer and TRANSFER the soul into it. It's just making a copy. Same way you copy a file from your computer to a flash drive, it doesn't erase the original (unless you TELL it to, via the "Cut" function), it just duplicates it. Meaning even after she "uploaded" Radcliffe, the actual HUMAN Radcliffe still DIED. Agnes was ALREADY DEAD. It was just a digital imprint, a file copy. So sure, all just a simulation.
As for Mace, he was NOT a copy, but a "program" (his mind) running from a separate "computer" (his brain and body) merely INTERFACING with a larger system. And when they executed the "delete" function (blowing up the building), it deleted the program on the original drive, and his system stopped functioning. THAT totally made sense. An independent system REQUIRES both the processor AND the operating program. Why AIDA didn't mention HIM as an exception . . . again, she was distracted, explaining the distinction would have been tedious, and let's face it, we only got 40+ minutes of show to work with.
In any case, we are talking an OP magic artifact, so yeah, sure . . . could work the way you're thinking and I'm completely wrong. It created a magical program, it could magically store souls, and every construct within was magically alive. Or it could be that NEITHER of us are correct and it all operates based on a Brambleweeny57 sub-meson brain linked to an atomic vector plotter suspended in a nice hot cup of tea. It's all speculation based on a work of complete fiction. I just prefer the more logical, real world approach.
[ edited by Batman1016 on 2017-05-21 04:56 ]
Batman1016 | May 20, 22:54 CET
Grack21 | May 20, 23:17 CET
/understatment
Batman1016 | May 21, 01:18 CET
You can be sentient wihout sapient, but you CANNOT be sapient without being sentient. My dogs and cat are sentient. Pigeons I see in the park are sentient. Humans are sentient and sapient. Existing computers are neither. They don't "BELIEVE" they are receiving sensory input, because, as far as we know, they don't believe or think at all. They don't have a consciousness that we know of. If they do start to believe and think for themselves? Then they would be conscious beings (sentient and sapient), with a mind of their own. (I guess, for all we know, they may have already, but there is no evidence of it.) Whether you are perceiving things in your actual physical environment, or a simulation that feels the same (as when you are dreaming or hallucinatimg), you are perceiving and feeling them and processing that data input, so to say - whether the input came from your eyes and ears perceiving the environment to your brain, or directly from your brain. By your logic, if a human being is stuck in a simulation without actually seeing a real environment, they stop being sentient?! So that would mean that Fitz, Coulson, Mace, Mack, May, and Daisy and Jemma and Elena, all temporarily stopped being sentient. Of course they did not.
"Wanting something is not an emotion" - Wanting something is a desire, wish, and a sign that you are sentient, that you do have a consciousnesses of your own. You seem really stuck on the idea of being able to experience (strong) emotion, as if that's the only thing that constitutes sentience. People with Antisocial Persinality Disorder ("psychopaths" popularly) are supposed to be only able to feel shallow emotions, and tend to actually mimic normal human emotions. Would that make them non-sentient? Obviously not.
I love your mental gymnastics though:
*claims Aida said all people in the Framework Fitz hurt were simulations, except Mace and Agnes, as supposed evidence the others weren't sentient*
*it's pointed out Aida never made such a distinction*
*..."Well,she didn't have the time."
Nice try. :)
TimeTravellingBunny | May 21, 07:59 CET
Oh. OOOHHH. Ok, I get it. Silly me, I understand.
See, here I was having an interesting discussion about the nature of AI, and explaining my perspectives and interpretation of the show, and you were trying to win an argument and prove me "wrong." Sorry, shoulda caught that earlier, my bad.
Right. You win. Congrats. Sorry for that.
Batman1016 | May 21, 17:05 CET
I don't care about the Framework simulated people, but AIDA/Madame Hydra/Ophelia and the LMD copies (May, mostly) were fascinating enough. :)
And turns out Daisy STILL should've konked Mack over the head and pulled him out. But either way, he made it back alive, so yay. :)
[ edited by Kris on 2017-05-21 23:26 ]
Kris | May 21, 17:25 CET
And yes, the whole "magic negates the whole point of sci-fi" aspect is exactly WHY I prefer the (admittedly more complicated) technological interpretation.
To be fair . . . the complicated questions involved in sapience vs sentience and whether or not sapience can even exist without sentience are SO complex, philosophical, and controversial, I don't think ANY show could really do it justice, let alone a wide audience targeted network show like AoS. I think HBO's "Westworld" comes CLOSE, but they are actually kind of avoiding the blurry sapience/sentience terminology (presumably because the words are WIDELY misunderstood and misused in common vernacular) in favor of a more direct, easier to parse "variable programming versus self awareness/free will" approach. Which is, itself, an interesting debate. If you haven't watched it, I definitely recommend it!
Batman1016 | May 21, 17:41 CET
@Kris: Turns out, even Elena realized that she shouldn't konk Mack over the head and pull him out.
TimeTravellingBunny | May 21, 18:09 CET
But that's also irrelevant, because I already conceded. No no, it's cool, you won brah!
Batman1016 | May 21, 18:25 CET
Fitz mentioned awful things she let him do in her name, and she tried to comfort him/make things look OK by saying "It was just a simulation". Except that simulation actually killed Mace, so it was clearly more than that. The awful things Fitz did in the Framework include causing the deaths of Agnes and Mace, but "it was just a simulation". If that should be taken as evidence that none of the people Fitz hurt in the Framework were real/alive, then that would mean that Agnes and Mace weren't real or alive either - and that's obviously not true. Mace was even alive in the real world. So, yes, it's relevant. Aida's "it was just a simulation" line was simply a BS excuse.
It's also not like she had a problem with deleting undeniably real, sentient people out of existence - she did that to Radcliffe when she shut down the Framework and killed him for the second time.
[ edited by TimeTravellingBunny on 2017-05-22 04:53 ]
TimeTravellingBunny | May 21, 22:52 CET
Grack21 | May 21, 23:29 CET
As for Bunny . . .
*sorry, laughing some more*
"Not." Last time I heard that was Borat.
Well then I don't know what you want, lady! If I say you win I'm being disingenuous, if I clarify a statement I'm still arguing, and I'm neither ever going to change my mind NOR ever going to convince you to change yours (despite the fact that, say it with me, I AGREE TO DISAGREE, I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE YOUR MIND, I DON'T CARE, I AM NOT ARGUING . . . not yelling, that's just for emphasis, dear), so what do you want? I mean it, what is YOUR goal, then? Since you don't believe mine.
According to IPIA rules, if one side quits, it counts as concession, meaning you win. YOU WIN! Really. What else do you need? What are you after?
[ edited by Batman1016 on 2017-05-22 08:30 ]
Batman1016 | May 22, 02:28 CET
Simon | May 22, 06:00 CET
Batman1016 | May 22, 07:28 CET