as skeptic a person I am, I've heard lots of promising news about TV Movies sometime next year. Im still a skeptic at heart, but IMO, this isnt the end of the Angel-Verse(yeah,I said Angel)

so if this is true, Im kinda pissed. I love a great death as much as anyone else;but I just cant believe they'd do this.

btw-Ive notcied of people that seem happy about Gunn's demise. Personally Gunn is my second favorite character, right behind Mr Wyndam Pryce(sp?). I think both have come a long way and've gone through alot. but if either/both died this season it would make sense I guess, they've both definitely been on downward spirals this year, and with the girl they both love being arguably "gone"...

One more thing-Just watched 17 again and Lindsey's speech at the end about apocalypse and how the big plan was for Wolfram and Hart to "distract" to the real dangers. If you think about it, we haven't seen much of the outside world this season.Kinda like they're on the inside, but they can't see out. a huge majority of this season has been nothing but inside W&H; which is kinda ironic-cuz Buffy's last season was mostly located inside the Summers House.hmmph . how bout that?

Puppet Cancer | April 20, 19:15 CET

You gotta love Kristen for her little jabs at the WB.

twiggy | April 20, 20:11 CET

she said only 2 die, whereas the other reports have been for 3............hmmmm, conflicting info!............and yeah, i hope this isnt the end of the buffyverse (yeah i said Buffy! :))

norman | April 20, 20:49 CET

I've been telling everyone that I am going to bawl over Wesley. I could care less about the other two (or one depending on who's correct).

Do you realize, if Wes does in fact die, that only Angel will be left from the original first season set? (Yes, I know some purists will say only Cordy and Doyle could be considered members of the original trio, but still...!) Man, I'm going to hold a wake.

cubiclesatan | April 20, 21:04 CET

Until they edit down what they've shot for the finale we probably won't know for sure who dies. I know shows like 24 and Friends have shot more than 1 ending to keep fans guessing. I find it hard to believe that they would kill so many characters off in one episode, it would lesson the impact of the deaths. Can you imagine one soliloquy after another crammed into 45 minutes? Although it would be kind of funny if Gunn dies and Wes starts blabbering on about how much he meant to him and about halfway through his speech he gets blasted.

vpecoraro | April 20, 21:15 CET

I got the idea from the spoilers posted earlier (still not sure I believe it's what really happens) that Gunn and Wesley are quite alone when they die, no friends to mourne over them, maybe it'll have a similar end to season 3, but with Angel, Spike and Illyria walking into the hotel going "Where is everybody?"

Totally OT: They've shot multiple endings for Friends I didn't know that, the ending I read ages ago over at spoiler-fix seems pretty believable, and what's happened so far, and what Kristen says in this chat seems to fit.
Yes, Friends is a show I for some reason love, it's nowhere near as good as a Joss-show, and I won't miss it as much as Angel but I do enjoy it. Hopefully Americana will fill the sitcom void, also hoping Alias will fill the void left by Angel but I think it'll be years (or until the next spinoff, whichever comes first) till a show as good as one set in the Buffyverse comes along.

Ghost Spike | April 20, 21:26 CET

I'm not at all surprised by Joss' reason to kill off Wesley... I mean Fred, Cordy, Doyle, Darla, and Lilah. Characters on Angel are pretty much screwed, whereas in Buffy not many major characters were killed (Anya, Tara, Jenny... got over those), with the exception of Buffy's Mom. In my opinion, I think that they should just kill off Gunn, he's a crappy character that keeps getting worse... like Angels sorry answer to a Xander-like character. I just hope that Harmony, or Lorne don't die... I like Angel, Spike, and Illyria, but lets face it if they die (hope not) something or someone will just bring them back.Well thats all, and remember if the finale is going to get messy... Make Gunn, Eve, and Lindsey Suffer!

Gio | April 20, 22:10 CET

It's now "WhedonVerse" not BuffyVerse or AngelVerse. I guess "JossVerse" would also be acceptable, but my point is we need to veer away from demands for certain characters and just try to get the networks to allow for a Whedon-helmed tv series that deals with the demon-infested universe he's concocted, but not restrict it to previously established characters. As Kristin has said recently in her column, clinging to the hope that Angel's salvagable is pointless. We need to convince the Powers That Be that there is still a following who want Whedon to continue telling his stories. All they need to do is come up with some fresh blood to help him do it.

I want a tv series that may feature previously established Whedonesque characters as anything from cameos to supporting roles, but in ways that would allow other actors to portray them if necessary. The series would be firmly entrenched in the mythos of Buffy and Angel, but wouldn't require the audience to see the past works in order to get what's going on. At the forefront it would include one or more characters who are completely new, and so they would learn along with new viewers, and those of us who are veterans to Whedon's virtuality would snicker at the revelations.

The focus though would be on storytelling. There's ways to bring even Buffy back into it without having to adhere to scheduling conflicts.

...

Of course, there is the more likely possibility that Whedon's just tired of demons and vampires and werewolves and wants to venture off to something new... or just wants to be there for his family and has put in his Hollywood time already and now wants a less hectic lifestyle... Nah!

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2004-04-20 20:35 ]

ZachsMind | April 20, 22:12 CET

While I was disappointed with Wes this year, Gunn has secured his place in my heart. I never expected a happy ending for Angel nor I've never thought the "Wild Bunch" ending was actually viable. I hate to see them die but I don't think they'll die alone and unmourned. I think Joss learnt his lessons from 'Chosen'.

BTW, why is everyone assuming Spike and Angel live? The show ends when they face the dragon with Illyria, we never get an answer. While it's a powerful image to end the show, it's emotionally draining. Without the TV Movies(which I doubt them highly) we'll never learn what happened to them. Honestly how long can they stand against a bloody dragon in the dimension of Senior Partners?

pelinxf | April 21, 01:58 CET

good point, but i still believe theres more to the ending than has been let out.................

norman | April 21, 02:04 CET

I heard that the finale is going to be a cliffhanger, with Gunn, Wesley, and Lindsay all being killed off and that it will end without the whole Shanshu thing being resolved-maybe resolved in a TV movie? I hope that Buffy/Angel and their type of genre is not being eliminated from TV..personally i hate reality tv stuff and would prefer to watch buffy/angel any day of the wk. Also, i realize that all reports say that smg, alyson hannigan, michelle tractenberg aren't appearing but i really really hope that's just a decoy so spoilerists won't get the real scoop.

JMfan | April 21, 02:19 CET

Shiva, I really doubt those 3 gals are gonna show up. I think it wouldve leaked by now. Either from Herc, SpoilSlay or Kristen, err is it Kirsten? But those 3 sources have been hella reliable and I think theyd of spoiled but now.

And personally, I DONT WANT TO SEE THEM THERE. ok, Aly Id like to see. I think Willow would make sense if they came up with sumpin good and shes helped the "Fangs" out over the years. But Dawn'd have no reason popping up unless She came with big sis. And I really dont wanna see her face.

I hope I aint setting myself up 4 a fall, But I really believe we're gonna see at least one or 2 movies sometime next year, and who knows maybe six(I got a boner) So 4get about Buffy; let her pop up in some of the movies. This is Angel not BtVS. even if she was there for less than 10 minutes(like Angel was in B's finale) itd be too much time for me. I just dont care about her right now

Puppet Cancer | April 21, 04:03 CET

ahh they made DB show up in buffy so SMG should show up in angel.....................

norman | April 21, 05:05 CET

Sadly from everything I've heard no real Buffy characters will be appearing on Angel. ( Andrew doesn't count because a very good character, Anya died in that little F&%^%$s place, and he is a nerdy little crap!). I'm still hopeful that this Wesley thing is false and my prayers will be answered... Gunn will Die!(wishful thinking). I also hope that Eve, Lindsey, and Hamilton really get theirs. As i stated earlier I hope that Harmony, Lorne, and Illyria are safe. I mean we all know Joss won't kill Angel and Spike again...will he? But this season was a huge loss: Cordelia, the hotel, Fred, and I'm sure more is to come. Oh, I got it! They could reedeem themselves by killing off Connor. That would make me happy. Who's with me? I mean Connor didnt work out the way Dawn did, he just kept causing problems and man did he look like an Ugly, Homeless, Manish version of Amy Acker(no offents 2 Amy, she's pretty hot.)

Gio | April 21, 06:43 CET

no .....she shouldnt

Puppet Cancer | April 21, 06:44 CET

Who shouldn't? Who's She?

Gio | April 21, 06:48 CET

Why the phuck do you all seem to hate Gunn so much!? I loved Gunn and personally I think his arc this season has been as good as ne1s

Puppet Cancer | April 21, 06:49 CET

Face facts! Gunn is a dumb ass who screws up so much! At least Xander never did that! He's useless, with addition of Spike what is Gunn really good for? He killed Fred, Made Wes all mouth breather-like, and is the reason that we have to look at Lindsey for these remaining episodes...Angel just should have let him die in season 3. Oh and also I hope Connor, Eve,and Lindsey suffer the worst in the finale!

Gio | April 21, 06:54 CET

man, talk about "bringin' the pain" gio..............

norman | April 21, 07:05 CET

Gunn made a mistake, he did not kill Fred. Knox did. Gunn is paying for what he did in the basement from hell and he will continue to pay for it for the rest of his life doesn't matter where he is. As Angel said " it'll wake him up every night because he's a good man"

pelinxf | April 21, 12:17 CET