Whedonesque : Comments on 3674 : The WB's 'End of Angel' poster.

That is kinda cruel. They could have been a little more subtle with the "it's over" message. What about the frickin' TV movies they were on about!?

kaivaal | April 21, 16:29 CET

I'm beginning to think the WB is trying to annoy the fans on purpose.

Elo | April 21, 16:33 CET

I was going to say - look's like the TV movie thing is out if they are going to this much effort to make sure they kill it.

RavenU | April 21, 16:34 CET

Do they even realise that it's actually Angelus? I imagine they wanted to use a hot picture of him and he was magma-hot back in BtVS Season 2 but I much prefer an "Angel" picture in his own show. Too bad, they don't even understand Angel has evolved a lot in 5 years.

pelinxf | April 21, 16:35 CET

Exactly, Simon. Somehow it's worse that they pull out a stinkin' archive photo to mark the "occasion." Really pulling out all the stops.

chasa | April 21, 16:41 CET

The only positive thing i can say about this is that by promoting Angel right up until the last episode they can only help to improve the ratings. Better ratings means more chance that they will follow through with their end of the movie deal.

Let's face it, they are coming out of this looking bad as it is by ignoring the biggest fan campaign in tv history. To go back on the promise of movies too would be PR suicide.

Having said all of that i still feel a little angry that if the movies go ahead the WB will make any gains from them at all. It's not as it they deserve to benefit from our loyalty to Joss and the show.

Technopagan | April 21, 16:45 CET

Gorgeous poster, but a little insensitive. These people are so out of touch with their viewers.

Caroline | April 21, 17:16 CET

Jerks. Is anyone else left feeling like something died in their mouth?

cubiclesatan | April 21, 17:27 CET

So NOW they decide to break open the piggy bank and spend a little on promotion. Gee, thanks.

bloodflowers | April 21, 17:29 CET

They try to make it all final to make sure that you watch. And that fairweather fans watch. Just IN CASE there arent any movies or anything afterward. Yes, cruel... but effective. They so want you to cry.

Cole Searr | April 21, 17:32 CET

What are we only 3+ million strong and obviously not that strong with only 100,000+ signatures on a petition, the only way the WB is going to feel bad about it is if they loose money because of it. I wish boycotting would work but I doubt it until July 2005 and Tivo ratings go offical anyone of us will count cause we haven't been ableto effect the Nielsens one bit this season - even with recent media coverage or campaigns. We could try boycotting DS, all other new dramas and what is ever on Wed for the first 4 weeks of the season next year. I would suggest at least boycotting Wed night on the WB over te summer as well. Until the WB takes a major finacial loss, like another 10% revenue hit this year will they care one bit about what they fans have to say about their programming.

Perhaps another campaign tatic against the WB next year should focus on watching them and then reporting anything that might be considered indecent to the FCC. Yes I know it's evil but hey sometimes you have to fight on a lower level, it only took one man to get Howard Stern yanked..."Attorney John Thompson, whose complaints about Howard Stern helped prompt Clear Channel to banish the jock and the FCC to fine the company almost half a million dollars, says he has faxed a complaint to the FCC about Sunday night's 60 Minutes broadcast, in which singer Mary J. Blige uttered an under-her-breath "sh*t."

RavenU | April 21, 17:35 CET

I kinda took this as a slap at the 'Save Angel' campaign.

Scott | April 21, 17:36 CET

Oh yes, I felt that slap! And did you notice that their 'message boards' are 'temporarily offline for a system upgrade'...they don't want a deluge.

ditz | April 21, 17:58 CET

Angelus's finest hour? I can't wait (heavy sarcasm). They've got it all wrong. It's pathetic. And as others have pointed out, insulting to the fans.

phlebotinin | April 21, 18:21 CET

Come on guys, it's a beautiful poster and I think we should all be burning up Ebay looking for our own. If the WB didn't promote the end of the series, we'd all be complaining that they don't care, and when they do promote the end of the series, we all complain that it's a slap in the face to Angel fans. They can't really win, can they?

I never thought I'd take my time to defend the WB, but not everything they do is a Machiavellian plot to piss us off.

MindPieces | April 21, 18:45 CET

MindPieces, well said, but it still feels like a knife being shoved into my gut when I see stuff like this and the ads the are freely showing now promoting Angel's final hours on TV. Now, if they had been freely promoting Angel all along it wouldn't seem that way but they haven't.

Firefly Flanatic | April 21, 18:50 CET

I actually liked it too...I think it looks pretty cool.

ringworm | April 21, 18:50 CET

RavenU, deeply opposed to the FCC campaign. Not necessarily because it's low, but because it's encouraging to the practices of an archaic and out-of-step bunch of fogeys and finger-wagglers who just do not get it.

TheJoyofZeppo | April 21, 18:54 CET

I agree blwessels -- it's a shame that the WB never cared to promote Angel until it was cancelled. But I am pleased that they're promoting it now, even if it hurts to see things like "The Final 5 Episodes". Though I do appreciate the fact that they're trying to build up some momentum for the finale. Not only does it show at least a twinge of respect for the series, but it's also good business. I'd be even more pissed if they let Angel die with little fanfare.

MindPieces | April 21, 18:57 CET

MindPieces, again, well said. I do hope they give it a proper thank you for the final episode and acknowledge the greatness of the show and the fans.

Firefly Flanatic | April 21, 19:01 CET

It's pretty obvious that this is the big "no" some claimed we hadn't seen from the WB regarding a possible change of mind.

I don't think this rules out TV movies at all (if they're serious about doing those, and they do seem serious seeing as Whedon and Marsters have made some semi-positive comments about it)

I'm totally with MindPieces on this, also. The WB and Levin probably can't do anything right in the eyes of us Angel fans right now, except renewing the series of course, and that's not gonna happen. Oh and the poster, dispite Angelusness, was rather classy I thought.

SimonM7 | April 21, 19:06 CET

MindPieces, you make a good point. The WB can't win at this stage. Also I think you're right that not everything they do has Machiavellian underpinnings. Often it's just incompetence. Or cluelessness. The poster is good-looking, to be sure. But it is Angelus. Okay, whatever. At least there's a poster.

Mirkan, I think you've got it -- this is defintely a big "no" from the WB on a possible change of mind in terms of the series.

phlebotinin | April 21, 19:21 CET

Hmm... that "The End" really pissed me off. I would have been ok with "His last stand will be his finest hour" but geesh... was the "THE END" really needed? That's just like a stab right in the gut. It hurts. Plus, it's in HUGE freaking letters. Rub it in some more why don't they.

The pic is damn slurp worthy though. DB is one HOT specimen, especially in leather pants.

nychick | April 21, 19:28 CET

The WB announced the big "NO" when DS shadows was announced. The fans didn't know yet but that is what it was. No amount of advertising is going to make a major swing in ratings (especially at the end).

The current WB ad campaign just feels like a smack in the face. Ok, so maybe I am bitter. Maybe I am PO. Maybe I am dissapointed. Did I mention PO? LOL. The WB might be in a no win situation but they put themselves in this situation.

Hey WB, you want to make me a poster? How about one with the WB frog getting its bum kicked by Angel? Now I would buy that. lol.

[ edited by DarenG on 2004-04-21 17:31 ]

DarenG | April 21, 19:30 CET

yes but the quetion becomes why not use a more recent photo there are great promo shots from this season they could have used but they go back and pull one from the Buffy days - seems like an insult to Angel fans not recognizing the show as anything other than a spin-off. As for them promoting it now - of course they will promote the end of it that way they can charge more for ads on the final episode, not out of respect for the show - it's about the money.

TheJoyofZeppo - I know it's not the best plan ofattack but the only way to get the WB to take note and be heard is to hit it in it's pocket book - I'm not suggesting people do it - it was just an idea. They have no resprct for our oppinion to keep a show on maybe they would care about our oppinion if we sought a way to cancel their shows. Hey you never know get shows like High School Reunion off the air maybe we can get Wonderfalls on the air.

RavenU | April 21, 19:42 CET

Long time lurker, new member/first time poster here.

Just wanted to say that I agree with nychick that it was "the end" on the poster that got me, not which publicity shot they used. Of course, they mean the end of the "fresh" episodes, but it is indeed insensitive in its suggestion of the end to the character and to the Buffy-/Angelverse as a whole. For those of us hanging onto the slimmest chances of some form of continuation in TV movies or miniseries, this seems like a door slamming in our faces.

palehorse | April 21, 19:53 CET

i liked the picture, he looked better back then than he does now, but thats just my opinion

norman | April 21, 19:55 CET

I find it very annoying. I am well aware that Angel is ending, and I don't need to be reminded of it! I also agree that it is the use of "the end" on the poster that is the problem. I haven't actually been watching anything on the WB besides Angel, so I have escaped seeing any of the promos. That said, I hope the promos work, because it seems more likely we will get the movies if the Angel final episodes get a boost in the ratings.

Wendy | April 21, 20:57 CET

It's pretty obvious that this is the big "no" some claimed we hadn't seen from the WB regarding a possible change of mind.

Good point. Unfortunately.

it only took one man to get Howard Stern yanked..."Attorney John Thompson, whose complaints about Howard Stern helped prompt Clear Channel to banish the jock and the FCC to fine the company almost half a million dollars, says he has faxed a complaint to the FCC about Sunday night's 60 Minutes broadcast, in which singer Mary J. Blige uttered an under-her-breath "sh*t."

Geez, must be a Wolfram & Hart partner. But though I agree with you that hitting the WB in the pocket book is the only way to get to them, I adamantly disagree with this particular route. First of all it advocates the tactics used by the FCC to quash the First Amendment. Secondly, it would likely only make the networks more reactionary and unwilling to innovate than they already are.

[ edited by stakeholder on 2004-04-21 20:53 ]

marmoset | April 21, 22:03 CET

Yeah, instead of Angel, which features violence and adult themes, we'll get more Seventh Heaven...

TheJoyofZeppo | April 21, 22:36 CET

TV is a different medium then radio. There is much more money at stake. TV won't turn into 7th heaven only type shows. If anything they will revisit the rules for adult television. However, you won't see adult televion go away.

DarenG | April 21, 22:41 CET

It's a lovely image of Angelus. I mean, who doesn't love the hotness of DB in leather pants, no matter when the picture was made?

That said, I do wish they'd used some of the fantastic promo shots from this season -- there are some of DB that are smokin'. It would have shown the WB marketing department understands Angel is a 'verse in its own right, connected to but not dependent on BtVS for its existence.

It's not surprising, however -- they've never understood Angel, not from the very first episode in S1 when they shut down production in the first weeks of shooting to force ME to retool it because it was 'too dark'. It never became the 2.0 version of Buffy they thought they'd signed on for, and they never forgave it for that. Yet by using a recognizable image from the good ol' B/A days of yore, they're still trying to tap the BtVS audience out there that never latched onto Angel in the first place. Too little too late.

And "The End" is either thoughtless or mean. Being rendered so prettily doesn't make it hurt any less.

Wiseblood | April 21, 23:53 CET

...from the very first episode in S1 when they shut down production in the first weeks of shooting to force ME to retool it because it was 'too dark'.

Wiseblood, are you referring mainly to their reaction over David Fury's "Corrupt" script (what would've been the second episode but instead ended up as "Lonely Hearts", as well as other parts of the "Corrupt" script being used in future Doyle-involved Season 1 eps)? 'Cause I never heard that they shut down production over that, I thought they just demanded that it not be produced or that it be majorly overhauled. I've read it, it is dark. But it's also kinda incredible, seemed like it would've been ten times more chilling than "Lonely Hearts", and could've been a much better introduction of Kate, and probably a better second episode of Angel overall.

Kris | April 22, 00:56 CET

I never knew there was a lost episode of Angel, does anyone have a link to where I could read it?

Ghost Spike | April 22, 01:05 CET

"Corrupt" was rejected by The WB the day before it would've gone into production, on grounds that it was "too dark." It never actually went into production. I read the first half of the script a while back (never finished, for some reason). It was pretty good. A lot of the stuff in it was used in later eps.

The site (studiesinwords.de) that had the script isn't up anymore, but someone on the Internet's gotta have it.

Invisible Green | April 22, 02:00 CET

I'm looking for that script too. Can somebody help us out?

electricspacegirl | April 22, 02:06 CET

I think a lot of us would be interested in reading that! I hope someone has a link.

Firefly Flanatic | April 22, 02:08 CET

They should have put it on the season one DVD, would have made an interesting extra.

Simon | April 22, 02:15 CET

Definitely. Allyson would probably know if it's around...Allyson?

marmoset | April 22, 02:24 CET

yeah i'd love to read that too. i'd love me some dark AtS stuff to keep me company post-May. so please people use your people connections or whatever. any ideas how our whedonesque community is going to keep itself busy until Serenity in 2005?

rsfayez | April 22, 03:58 CET

I asked Allyson about it @ Buffistas. She says she'll get around to posting a link; it's on her computer somewhere.

Invisible Green | April 22, 04:18 CET

Fabulous! Many thanks to you both!

marmoset | April 22, 04:23 CET

How much do they hate us, again?

I mean...we made their network... we should all just stop watching the WB except for Angel...

Rogue | April 22, 06:05 CET

Kris, I read "Corrupt" on Rayne's site in 2000 (which I stupidly didn't download for safe-keeping), and an article that I ran across around the same time (which turned me on to "Corrupt" in the first place) said production on Angel had been shut down by the WB for, I think, a couple of days or something while the script was retooled. I don't have anything specific to point to, unfortunately. I do remember being strongly struck by the idea of a show being shut down because of pressure from its parent network, which is what made the use of the terminology stick in my mind. I believe the article mentioned David Fury was somewhat upset over the situation. Wish I'd saved everything I looked at back in those days, but I wasn't quite as obsessed as I am now. ;)

TVTome has the following bit about "Corrupt" on its site, and while it's not the most reputable source at all times, this does corroborate my remembrance that such an article did in fact exist at one time, whether I can locate it or not:

This episode ['Lonely Hearts'] was a replacement for an original David Fury script called 'Corrupt'. Intending Angel to be much darker in tone, Fury wrote the script which involved Kate taking drugs and prostituting herself and Angel licking blood off a murder victim. Understandably, when WB read this they were horrified and production was closed down and David Fury had to write a whole new script, which became this episode.

AtS 'Lonely Hearts' Episode on TVTome

Pretty outrageous stuff. I wish this ep had seen the light of day. Or at least the light of the cathode ray....

Wiseblood | April 22, 11:40 CET

I have a fuzzy memory of "Corrupt", so I can't remember "Angel licking blood off a murder victim"...Funny how that aspect took three years to be used though (perhaps not consciously cannibalized from "Corrupt" by the writer of "Orpheus" though), when it was shown that `70s ensouled Angel fed off a murder victim.

So was David Fury originally meant to be more involved in the early years of Angel? 'Cause if "Corrupt" was any indication of how dark the show would get...was all of Season 1 meant to be darker overall? I hate it when I find out that we may not have seen the true creative vision of the writers/artists involved in a project, that the suits got in the way of such things.

Kris | April 22, 14:43 CET

Sure Angel could of been darker, but I thought it was dark enough, we have seen more gore and heads cut off compared to Buffy, Angel even brought a head back in the office for a trophy in a early season three episode. Angel blends darkness and light very well. Alot of season two stuff was dark, when Angel goes on the dark side etc, the themes were dark. Basically the writers did make the dark episodes, they just had to please WB with the pilot and sneak their darker episodes later, while the ratings were good and the show had a loyal viewerbase etc.

SeanValen | April 22, 15:08 CET

April 21 2004