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April 22 2004

USA Today critic recommends tonight's Angel. (Brief episode description as spoiler). Post what you thought of the episode in this AtS S5x18 'Origin' discussion thread and chat about it at Flickr as well.

In case anyone is wondering about the wildfeed or why the episode isn't available for download yet at certain sites, Angel's Acolyte says "The AtS feed has been converted to digital and is no longer available without ownership of, or access to, the expensive equipment designed for those signals".

Which probably explains why Herc's review isn't up at Ain't It Cool News at this time of writing.

You know what tends to kill me about all these reviewers, it seems that everytime they promote Angel they end up also promoting one of Angel's competitors, like in this article he mentions Angel and then mentions the OC.

Ok to prove my point even more zap2it picks Angel as one of it's best bets tonight. It was first on the list but it was then followed by 'The West Wing' (created and produced by the guy trying to replace Angel with a remade DS), then they also mention a documentary on TV Land at 9pm. If not to make things worse under the 'also on tonight' is the rescently renewed FOX series 'The OC'. GrrArgh!!!

They wait till they last six episodes to convert them to digital after not doing it to Angel all season long when all their other shows had been converted. Ok senses this makes - not, but then again this is the WB we are talking about and they are not known to make sensible descissions.

BTW - OTH is the only drama on the WB that is waiting on renewal word, all others have been picked up.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-04-22 02:54 ]
"I've always had a thing for older women."

Ha. But I still wish I had a mindwipe about THAT.
Why do people care about the O.C. so much, I hear its trashy and One Tree Hill is much better and more realistic. I hope Angel viewers arent changing the channel to FOX when Angel is on.
nah, the O.C. is good. i actually watch the O.C. I tape Angel (sorry, i like Angel and all, i just dont watch it every week). Buffy though, i would totally skip the O.C. to see it on tv:)

[ edited by norman on 2004-04-22 03:49 ]
O.C. has witty dialogue, which I've been missing since Buffy, but still won't beat out Angel. One Tree Hill is just awful. Not realistic at all and horrible acting all around.

Tonight's episode was decent. I rather liked Illiriya's scenes with Spike. I hate to say it but Conner didn't annoy me this episode so much as he did when he was a regular. I guess the wholesome teen thing worked better for him than the driven battered vampire son we all came to know.
Drew Goddard does it again! I loved this episode. And I just about died with the Spike as a pet comment, and the older woman comment.

How can they cancel this wonderful show. Broken record and all, but it's just too cruel.
You have to love a show that resolves a plot point from 2 years ago. It was good seeing Sahjahn finally taken down. Too bad his mask looked a little fake.
Wow. Classic ep. The last scene was just brilliant!
That was an excellent episode. I wasn't a big Connor fan but the storyline was handled brilliantly and it was wonderful to have it wrapped up so neatly. It was great to see what Connor possibly would've been like if he had been raised by Angel and not taken to a Hell dimension instead.

I also loved the joke about "liking older women" and Angel mumbling something about "I thought they fixed that". I also loved Illyria casually stating that she wants Spike as her pet. Those scenes were really funny. Great episode from start to finish. It makes it all the sadder that this is one of the last few episodes.
Amazing episode. Come on over folks to Flickr and talk.
I liked Connor's choice at the end to go with the false memories of his wholesome "family" over the memories of his harsh real multidimensional history. It was completely in keeping with his character....remember in season four when Connor had his eyes opened to Jasmine's true face and still chose to go with the "shiny happy people" facade anyway, because it was easier to embrace than the horror of Holtz/Quortoth/Angelus/Darla?

I love character continuity like that. Although, a thought: when Connor delivers his last line to Angel, "I learned that from my father," might he have been referring to Holtz? I didn't think so at the time, but it suddenly occurred to me. Eek. Hope not.

Spike as Illyria's "pet." Fabulous.

I swear I'm not being traitorous to Fred when I say this, but I'm sort of warming to Illyria in terms of her larger than life personality. That ex-demon-king gal has balls, although the portentous tones in which Illyria delivers her comments on Humanity can get a little tiresome.

I shudder to think what Wesley is going to do now that he remembers everything. I keep thinking back to the episode just before this one, in which Illyria asks Wesley, if he doesn't like the world around him, why doesn't he leave? Wesley doesn't answer, but the camera pans to his darkly grim face and lingers there. Meaningfully. Pregnant pause. What does it all mean?
Oh, I definitely think Connor saying "I learned that from my father" was his way of acknowledging to Angel that he does remember and he's grateful for what Angel did for him. It said so much and it was so meaningful.

My daughter wondered if just Wesley, Illyria, and Connor are the ones to have the memories returned because the little red guy said something about "if it broke, those near it might remember"(can't remember the exact quote). So wii Lorne and Gunn remember too?
You know what would have been kinda a nice side note would have been to find out that one of the reason's Lorne couldn't read people as well as he did before was because of the mindswipe. Just a thought, but thought they could have used that reasoning to maybe help Lorne in his guilt over not being able to read the bad intentions as he had done before and also leave it as a huge sign all season that no one paid attention too.
blwessels, I also think that by "my father" Connor was really referring to Angel and that it was a meaningful, beautiful moment between Connor and Angel.

But what I love about the Whedonverse shows are the extra shadings and alternative interpretations, and Connor saying, "You got to do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father," also echoes what Holtz taught him. Again, I don't think we're meant to think that Connor is still referring to Holtz as his father, but I also don't think this is a coincidence. Sort of maybe the writer's way of tugging at our heartstrings even more, by stirring up our old memories of the Connor/Holtz/Angel triangle.
The most chilling moment in the episode wa when Illyria calmly stated, "He doesn't follow you anymore." Wesley kinda scares me now.
ringworm -- me, too. Wesley creeped me out in this episode. Wesley and Illyria as a duo creeped me out. She's always gravitating towards him and he towards her. It makes me distinctly uncomfortable.
Forgot to mention - loved the symbolism with the name "Vale," however you spell it.
Thought it was a great episode and a really nice end to Connor's story arc. I couldn't help but wonder, though, that Connor didn't want to find out what happened to Cordelia. This is a minor complaint, but I do find it odd that no one has grieved for Cordelia except Angel when they are all so devastated about Fred's death. Cordelia was just as significant to the gang as Fred.

Oh, and could you explain the "Vale" symbolism? The significance escapes me.
Wow, I can't believe I really enjoyed having Connor around for an entire episode. I'd give all the praise to The Ultimate Drew, but Vincent Kartheiser also displayed some great acting chops. I grew to love and miss Connor after a year and a half of detesting him. I definitely didn't see that one coming. And how great was it to have the Sahjahn plot all wrapped up? I honestly didn't think that would be addressed before the series ended, but I'm pleased that Joss didn't let me down.

The best lines of the night were definitely the in-jokes to the fans. The "older women" comment, as well as Connor's line "Well, what am I gonna do, complain?" Priceless!
Ye gods, was that a good episode. Spike and his clipboard, NonMoody!Connor, Stupid Stupid Wesley, and that last scene.

On the Wesley note, I'm wondering if Illyria has actually been influencing him? True, our Rogue Demon Hunter is chock full of angst even when life is good, but I'd think that someone who was sleeping with Lilah and tried to redeem her would at least ask Angel what the deal with the contract was. It's easy to forget that just because she's got this innocent lost puppy dog look periodically, Illyria is still a very very bad person.

Wendy: Since Vail (gotta love captions for making sure you get the characters' name down right (even though I can *never* properly pronounce Illyria's name) ) is the one who did the mojo on everyone, it could be said that he "veiled" everyone.
I'm not a fan of violence, but Angel kicked @$$ when he was saving Connor's family. That was awesome.
Great episode - loved having all the loose ends tied up with Connor and Sahjahn. Always loved Sahjahn, never liked Connor until this episode.

I agree the relationship between Illyria and Wes is unsettling... things should get real interesting as a result.

LOVE ILLYRIA as a character. She is unpredictable and Amy looks fantastic in blue!
Thanks syrcharles. I guess I was overthinking that one and assuming it had a specific Buffyverse significance, rather than English 101 symbolism.
I was sooo looking forward to the Connor episode and it is great! Vincent played it really well and that last scene was brilliant. I always think Goddard doesn't give Angel enough to do in his episodes (I mean physically), but that awesome fight irish mentioned makes up for that.

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