After reading this , my first thought was that after years of
producing mostly B/A oriented merchandise, TPTB don't like
B/A shippers' money anymore and decided to cut off this whole
fandom. It's the only explanation that I managed to come up with about those strange and unnecessary scences with Nina in this eisode.Or well, it's their show and their money to lose.
Other then that, the episode looks really amazing.

ilanit | April 28, 14:01 CET

I think the point is Angel is moving on. Spike will move on and Buffy has already moved on. The whole purpose of episode 20 is this, isn't it? Actually Angel had several women in his life since he left SunnyD, B/A shippers may or may not accept this but it happened in some form or another. I think M.E. wants to close the ships (at least for now) but that doesn't mean most of the shippers won't read fanfic and live in fic world.

I don't think B/A merchandise will dissapear but of course it's B/A shippers' choice to buy it or not.

pelinxf | April 28, 14:21 CET

I'm anxious about this episode, hope it ends up as good as written.
I do'nt think B/A merch will end, I don't even think that ME did drop it for all, they just decided to give it a time. Hey, after that whole cookie dough talk last year, they just made it "clear" that it might come back, just not so soon.
For now, each character will go his / her way, maybe they'll meet again in the future.

Numfar PTB | April 28, 15:00 CET

Exactly. How many times in real life do you make a decision to put a relationship behind you and fall in love with a totally new person only for that relationship to end as well and then bump into your old love, only to fall in love with them a second time.

I know that has happened to me and i'm certain something similar has happened to nearly everyone here.

Regardless of anything that was said or done in "The Girl In Question" or even what happens in this episode there is nothing to say that future events won't bring Buffy and Angel, or Buffy and Spike for that matter, back together as a couple. On the other hand all three of them may go on to have fantastic relationships with totally new people.

Basically what i mean is that it doesn't matter what they say today, it has no bearing on what will happen tomorrow.

Life is just like that.

The Arcane | April 28, 15:22 CET

And I could've believed that M.E. just want to close the ships,
if they did the same with Spike.But they didn't.The last scene in episode 20 was enough for making a point about moving on.
In the last episodes of Buffy/Angel verse, Buffy dating some
evil guy and Angel sleeping with some woman that pose no danger for his soul, after learning great news about Buffy.In another words, he uses her as a rebound.And only Spike is pure as always. Once again, my two favorite characters look so very good with those new and exciting developments .

ilanit | April 28, 15:23 CET

ilanit, I really don't want to discuss the ships here but no one is making anyone look bad while making one is pure and adult. Spike didn't have 5 years to move on from Buffy. He died and appeared in L.A. 10-11 months ago. Angel left Sunnydale 5 years ago and his life changed a lot in those five years. It's natural for him to move on but I think he already moved on years ago, anyway. Don't get me wrong, I think Angel still loves her in a way and always will. Just like Buffy will love him. It's just not 'the love' that they felt 5 years ago.

I think Spike has been moving on all season. I think he still loves her as much as he did in Chosen but I think he's hesitant about going back to her whether the reason is. Maybe he likes his new life and being his own man or he's too insecure about her. Whatever the reason his, he did not go back, he's been moving on.

I agree with Technopagan, all 3 of them are moving on at the moment, that doesn't mean the chance of any of them getting back together in the future is dead.

pelinxf | April 28, 15:42 CET

You're right, and all those bad things that I read about Buffy since the summary for episide 20 came out, they all are just my imagination.The fact that she dating evil guy again dosn't make her look bad at all.

And there is no future,the show is over.I don't believe it'll come back in some other form.

[ edited by ilanit on 2004-04-28 14:18 ]

ilanit | April 28, 16:13 CET

I still believe that the whole "Buffy dating an evil guy" thing was just meant to be the tip of a new season six storyline iceberg that has now had to be cut short due to the cancellation.

My guess, because i don't believe that the character is so blind, dumb or badly written, is that she is involved with this evil guy as a way of getting close to him and bringing him down from the inside. Maybe even something she has picked up from what Angel has been doing at W&H.

I think, had SMG been able to appear as planned, she would basically have snubbed both Angel and Spike, appearing to choose this Immortal guy over them. The story would have ended there, in a similar way to how it actually did, with both vamps deciding to move on.

Next season we would have gotten the full story when Angel and Spike were called in to help Buffy in taking down the Immortal as she had always planned. Most likely as a two part sweeps storyline.

All speculation of course but it makes more sense than to think that Joss would allow such an unlikely turn of events in his first slayer's life.

The Arcane | April 28, 16:32 CET

We don't know for sure if The Immortal is evil or not. I'm repelled by the guy; it's not because Buffy dates him, because 'Mortimer is bested them through the centuries' theme and him ravishing Dru & Darla just makes me sick. I'm not going to accept this 'plot device' is better than my boys who I loved and invested in for 8 years. Dating an evil/notevil guy doesn't give Buffy a bad name but her not calling Angel with 'WTF with W & H ?' does, her not trusting him does, if she knows about Spike and didn't give a damn enough to call does. In this case, yes Buffy Summers looks very bad indeed. Angel looks bad because he has men watching her house. He disappointed me in this regard but he doesn't 'use' Nina, I refused to believe he's that low!

The future is imagination. Whether it's in fics, books or movies. It's up to the fans really.

As for episode 21, I love it. The tension can be feeled just reading it. Angel vs. Team Angel. I can't wait to see Illyria and Drogyn playing the video game. LOL! I'm not sure about what Angel does to him, altough I don't think he killed Drogyn.

pelinxf | April 28, 17:02 CET

i dont know, all he did was give her tickets to get her safe.................or did i read it wrong?

norman | April 28, 17:03 CET

But there is no next season, the show is over.And, unless Joss
managed to hide some twist in the end, this "unlikely turn of
events in his first slayer's life" is exactly what Joss
would allow.Why couldn't they just leave her alone,or at least make this guy non evil?



And,well, Angel sleeping with Nina after deciding to move on due to the results of his trip to Rome and
he dosn't loose his soul with her.In my book it's rebound, and rebound means somebody using somebody else
so he could feel better.In my opinion, of course.

[ edited by ilanit on 2004-04-28 15:36 ]

ilanit | April 28, 17:16 CET

norman - Angel wakes up next to Nina, so they're doing more than just getting coffee these days. Including that scene also introduces the possibility that Angel has lost his soul to one perfect moment of happiness, besides the whole moving-on angle.

wren | April 28, 17:28 CET

hmm, but i guess he didnt lose his soul eh! :) i agree with ilanit. they should have just let it alone. i guess im one of the few and the proud (at least on this site) that thinks what they have done to the B/S/A triangle is just STUPID.......it is a shame too because they had such a good story line going. i also think that if there had been another season then yes we would have seen some more into the immortal relationship, but there isnt so we will have to settle with them making Buffy out to be an idiot (man, i take this show to seriously)

norman | April 28, 17:39 CET

I guess that having Angel's actions and the fact that he woke up with Nina lead us to believe he's turned evil but I'm just curious to know how he did it. Unless like the time with Darla, he's learned to just have sex without any love involved.

And what happens with Illyria!? I can't believe that Hamilton could take them both out. Where's Harmony?

Christopher | April 28, 18:22 CET

Do you really believe Angel would lose his soul if Angel sleeps with Buffy again? He wouldn't because he's aware of the curse now. It's always going to be in his mind. Look how much did it take in Awakening. I believe Angel uses Nina as much as I believe Buffy sent Spike to death to protect Angel. Snowball in hell has the same chance with these.

I understand it's frustrating for both Bangles and Spuffies, and story doesn't make sense at some places while it's too rushed at others but this doesn't change the intent for the episode.

pelinxf | April 28, 18:23 CET

"But there is no next season, the show is over.And, unless Joss
managed to hide some twist in the end, this "unlikely turn of
events in his first slayer's life" is exactly what Joss
would allow.Why couldn't they just leave her alone,or at least make this guy non evil?"

Well yeah, which is why i used words like "would have" rather than "will have". This is what i speculate would have been a storyline in season six rather than something i think is actually going to happen.

What i mean is that if this is taken at face value then Buffy is acting extremely out of character in what she is doing and that, had season six happened, we would have seen her real motivations. Joss may have no problem in throwing us a curve ball now and again but outright bad characterisation isn't his style.

This would most certainly have been a plot line followed up in season six and hopefully it still may be in some form, possibly in the movies should they happen.

As for leaving it alone, talk about a rock and a hard place. Joss has attempted to please both the 'shipper groups by giving a sense of temporary conclusion without Buffy actually making a choice and he still can't win.

Go figure!

The Arcane | April 28, 18:32 CET

yeah, which is why he shouldnt have even tried! should have just left it alone, and i probably would be less dissapointed (but thats just me)

norman | April 28, 18:56 CET

And if he hadn't tried there would be someone else on the other side of the arguement who would have complained that he never tried to deal with the Spuffgel (see what i did there!) situation.

Hence, rock and hard place.

The problem with a diverse fandom? You can never win no matter what you do!

The Arcane | April 28, 19:38 CET

'Spuffgel' Heeeeee.. :D :D

Absouletly true. Joss's in no win situation.

pelinxf | April 28, 19:47 CET

yeah, im not saying he isnt, just think that they way it seems to be turning out, maybe it should of been left alone.

[ edited by norman on 2004-04-28 18:24 ]

norman | April 28, 20:00 CET

Personally,i did a dance over these spoilers and let out whoop over the Angel/Nina scenes. Angel is moving on, not rebounding. He's moved on for a long time, this was just a nice visual to it all. And oh no, he didn't lose his soul, therefore it cannot be theirloveissopureandsoul!losing!! Um...no.

syd | April 28, 20:39 CET

guess it just didnt mean as much to him :) (just joking about this)

norman | April 28, 20:47 CET

HI just finished reading the spoiler for ep.21.

I think it sounds exciting. However, I am a little displeased with Nina/Angel thing (JW does not like happy endings remember!)

I am glad as I could be that if this is it for ANgel (no movies etc.) that it leaves the fans of the Angel/Buffy romance the overture of making it known that Buffy is the love of Angel's life and his soulmate as evidenced by sleeping with Nina and not going bad - "that perfect happiness" will never be achieved.

In addition, I think that perhaps something will be said about Buffy (Tensai, Spoiler slayer, said that "cookies will be brought up in last 3 eps at some point)

magdelena | April 28, 20:51 CET

Well, I still think it's a rebound,if somebody else has different opinion, it's totally his right.
I also think that Joss making a point with those unnecessary
scences with Nina in next to last episode of the series.He's
complained a lot about the failure of B/R and somewhat about
C/A and he always blamed B/A on this(even so B/A shippers were not the only ones that disliked those ships).In my opinion it's
his revenge,but, of course,it's only my opinion.Maybe I'm wrong,
maybe DG just wanted to give more job to his girlfriend.

ilanit | April 28, 21:46 CET

Mmmmm naked nina.

Mort | April 28, 21:50 CET

Or maybe, it's finally proving that Angel is OVER Buffy. As clearly, Buffy is over Angel.

syd | April 28, 21:56 CET

Who is DW 's girlfriend?

I also think that Nina is rebound!
As for failure of certain ships, fans or whatever,I think that we will have to wait and see what happens? The B/A story was well conceived and well delivered, that's why people respond so zealously and one of the many reasons why both shows were such a success, that is just my IhMO.

magdelena | April 28, 22:09 CET

Maybe.But then again , Angel left five years ago, and it's a lot of time to finish this ship once and for all.Why now?No need in those shippers anymore?

The actress who plays Nina is D. Goddard's girlfriend.

[ edited by ilanit on 2004-04-28 20:15 ]

ilanit | April 28, 22:13 CET

True, he did leave years ago, however, on both series they always found away to place a B/A nod,Pang, like when he visited B when her mom died, yoko factor, IWrY, Five by five, when he changed through magical sex (whispering her name), returning penultimate Buffy, having her followed in rome.
However, that's just the relationship mystique/lore that surrounds B/A.
The two series are forever linked, hence, one of the greatest story's they had is Never going to be forgotten and I guess always debated.
Perhaps, I am an incurable romantic?

magdelena | April 28, 22:20 CET

Wow! I did not know that, she is a Beautiful girl!

[ edited by magdelena on 2004-04-28 20:23 ]

magdelena | April 28, 22:21 CET

I don't think anyone will be perfectly happy with the resolution/non-resolution of things. I never liked the character of Nina or her involvement with Angel as they never "clicked" for me. It just seems too contrived.

Tracy | April 28, 22:24 CET

The bottom line is while some see everything about B/A others definetly don't see that and I very much doubt they will after all these years... Everybody supports and feels for their own ship, surerly there's no point in arguing about it. I would much prefer them to finalise this triangle once and for all but sadly everything I want, don't happen magicaly.

Angel/Nina doesn't have the backstory much just like Fred/Wesley( Fredwise). This doesn't make Angel a user and I find 'He can't love her because he didn't lose his soul' argument pretty flat (sorry, no offense). He didn't lose his soul when Connor was born and Connor is the person Angel loves more than anyone or anything.

[ edited by pelinxf on 2004-04-28 21:26 ]

pelinxf | April 28, 23:19 CET

well, obviously it wasnt true happiness like the curse states :) (lol)

norman | April 28, 23:22 CET

I don't think this Angel/Nina ship was contrived at all. It was a slow process and they haven't forced the ship like Kennedy & Willow were.

As far as this Angel & the curse dilemma goes, let's just let it slide, shall we? Vampires aren't supposed to be the same people they were when they were alive but that isn't true, is it?

If so then why do the vampires act the same, look at Jonathan M Woodward and during s3 of Buffy Angel stated something about it and you've even got Harmony as a perfect example. Vampires just get damned. Your soul goes poof and then you've got a guaranteed pass to Hell because you're evil.

Christopher | April 28, 23:57 CET

Christopher, i've always assumed that what Giles said back in The Harvest was something along the lines of Watcher's Council propaganda. He told Xander that the Jesse he saw at the Bronze was not the person that he had known but the thing that killed him. Not really the case though.

The Council had no reason to ever tell their slayers, or anyone else for that matter, that vampires were anything more than demons in human shells, even if they suspected it themselves. Why throw in information that could alter a slayer's point of view when there was no need. Let her believe that it was all demon and there was no doubt it should be slain.

We know now from years of close up experience of two vampire's with their souls restored that it is not that simple. In fact the very nature of "becoming" a vampire suggests that the individual was human first, then became something new.

Within the slayerverse the soul is not your personality, it is your humanity, your conscience, your ability to distinguish between right and wrong, or more precisely to care about which you choose.

Upon death after being bitten your soul is replaced with the essence of a demon, not a demon consciousness. It is still you but you with a new set of "values" for want of a better term.

This is evident in the way that Angel and Spike are the same entity with or without a soul, they just act differently depending on how they are, although with Spike the diffeence many would say is negligible.

With Angel the difference is a lot more profound, so much so that he often seems to refer to himself as two seperate people (Angel and Angelus) despite the fact that he accepts it was actually he who commited the acts he is atoning for.

Darla is the best proof of all that the vampire is just a human given demonic power. If the possession by a demonic personality theory was the case then she would have been a radically different person once returned to life as a human with no demonic influence whatsoever and radically different again when changed by Drusilla the second time as that would actually be a second "demon" that had taken her form, not the one that occupied her before.

In fact Darla was one consistent person despite being, human, vampire, dead, human, vampire and finally ghost. She may have had different values and morals at different points in her existence but it was always the same individual.

Totally off topic i know but i needed to get that out there, hehe

The Arcane | April 29, 00:29 CET

Christopher, there was no process at all.They went to eat breakfast in"Smile Time", then they suddenly in a bed in episode
21. In "Origin" Angel tells Connor that he's not dating anyone,
and in episode 20 Angel apparently watching Buffy,he also acting pissed and talking about moving on.And in the next episode they
already having sex.Comparing to them, W/K was a very, very slow
process,they at least lived in the same house for some time.

ilanit | April 29, 01:48 CET

I agree with Ilanit and Tracy the B/N relationship was contrived and forced on us. I would guess due to quick cancellation, we get a quick relationship. I still think that it can be considered a "rebound" relationship.

magdelena | April 29, 02:16 CET

Thanks Technopagan for such a great perspective on that and to ilanit and magdelena for your opinions. I'm just going to assume that there were some dates & flirtations happening offair or I'll start to let every single screw up in the Buffyverse get to me, heh. ;)

Christopher | April 29, 02:41 CET