I think its kinda cool that David gets to work with his wife. She was so funny in Son of the Beach and who knows, maybe she'll be good in this too. And I'm very glad that this story is going to center around Illyria, she such a cool character. Lucky for us Angel had been consistent with its number of great episodes, hopefully this one will add to that list.

Gio | April 29, 02:54 CET

Does anyone visit flicker anymore! was just wondering if there was going to be a chat after tonights ep.

magdelena | April 29, 04:46 CET

"Unstuck in time..."

Am I right in thinking this is the first Slaughterhouse Five reference in a Whedonesque show?

prufrock | April 29, 06:05 CET

Well, I don't know about Herc but this one is a 5 star episode for me. Pretty much everything is there. The plot gets advanced, Illyria is dealt with, Angel finally gets the big picture and there are several laugh-out loud moments. Ben Edlund is one of my favorite writers right now and I'm sad & more than a little pissed that this is last episode for Angel. Man, I hope these tele-movies stories being talked about are true but I ask once again, and probably will for at least three more weeks but this is the show the frog cancels? Looking forward to that season five DVD set. Excellent episode, excellent season.

NOLA64 | April 29, 06:07 CET

Excerpt from the promo after "Smallville:"

NARRATOR: Only four episodes left...

ANGEL: That isn't good.

___________________________________________

I agree.

I'm gonna have to watch this one again soon, because of all the time wonkiness.

About the ending...what? I'm assuming they're gonna explain that next week.

I was disappointed by the lack of conflict between Angel and Wesley after origin. I also wanted more Spike, Lorne, and Harmony. The acting was especially great this ep, except for James Marsters and Alexis Denisof--they seemed a little off.

Also, Illyria refered to Wesley attempting to bring back Fred. I am the only one who was confused by this reference. We didn't see this happen on screen, or be mentioned until now.

It was a great episode, though not as good as the last three.

Invisible Green | April 29, 06:12 CET

Invisible Green, what Illyria was talking about was Wes destroying that glowing box thing in last weeks episode... Wes new that would undo whatever spell was done on the day they took over Wolfram & Hart. Wes destroyed the box because he thought it would change the events since then enough that Fred would still be alive.

aftermac | April 29, 06:18 CET

Cassie was reading Slaughterhouse Five in Help. Other than that, I can't think of any other references.

talented_bink | April 29, 06:25 CET

Invisible Green, Wesley tried to bring back Fred by destroying that glowing memories box (whatever it was called) that contained the Connor memories. Wesley knew that his and everyone's memories had been altered because of the Angel-Wolfram and Hart deal over Connor and Wesley was hoping that by undoing the memory spell he'd somehow undo the trajectory of events that led to Fred's death. Or something like that.

I'm not sure how I feel about this episode. I have to watch it again because (1) the time stuff was indeed a bit wonky, and (2) I really want to understand what was up with Angel at the very end when he agreed to help the demons get that woman's unborn child. I am assuming that he was at least appearing to follow Illyria's advice on how to rule effectively -- to dispense with morality and embrace boundless ambition. Or something. But that doesn't tally with the whole "let's be on the good side of this slowly unfolding final apocalypse" conclusion that was reached last week. I wonder if Angel's strange behavior at the close of the episode was meant to impress something on Hamilton, who was there and watching closely.

By the way, I love Adam Baldwin in the role of Hamilton. He makes me giggle even though I know he's a menace.

phlebotinin | April 29, 06:27 CET

Thanks aftermac and phlebotinin - I guess I didn't remember that since the audience knew that it wouldn't bring Fred back.

Invisible Green | April 29, 06:33 CET

phlebotinin wrote:
I am assuming that he was at least appearing to follow Illyria's advice on how to rule effectively -- to dispense with morality and embrace boundless ambition. Or something. But that doesn't tally with the whole "let's be on the good side of this slowly unfolding final apocalypse" conclusion that was reached last week. I wonder if Angel's strange behavior at the close of the episode was meant to impress something on Hamilton, who was there and watching closely.

By the way, I love Adam Baldwin in the role of Hamilton. He makes me giggle even though I know he's a menace.

Everyone connected with the Wolf, the Ram & the Heart have been telling Angel all season that he has his finger on the power, that he can affect change but I don't think Angel really understood what that meant. I think through Illyria he now sees the only way to push through his agenda is by fighting the firm on the terms it is accountable to. I think he is done being pushed and is ready to push back at the Senior Partners by using their own rules against them. I love this storyline, I love the way it is building and I almost wish we were not getting next week's side trip. We are too far into this game & too close to the end for a filler episode.
I also echo your thoughts on Adam Baldwin. Funny & evil, that should be the Mutant Enemy motto and Baldwin just nails it.

NOLA64 | April 29, 06:39 CET

That description was kind of misleading. I don't remember Illyria going back to kill everyone. And it makes it sound like Angel choses to go forward in the future.

...Angel (David Boreanaz) travels into Illyria's past to alter the course of events

[ edited by toxiceuphoria on 2004-04-29 05:02 ]

toxiceuphoria | April 29, 06:59 CET

"Cassie was reading Slaughterhouse Five in Help. "

Doh! Forgot about that one. One of my favorite books.

prufrock | April 29, 07:01 CET

One of my favourite books too. ;)

talented_bink | April 29, 07:07 CET

I thought it was a really good episode. After having sat through a lecture on the essence of things and how their true form never changes through time in philosophy class today, it toally hit on for me.

The character of Illiriya is starting to grow on me, though she's starting to become a tad annoying with her constant talk of her "glory days." Reminds me of when former high school football players become overweight and sit around at home reminiscing about the good old days.

Illiriya is beginning to play the sort of Anya role of the former powerful one who has to learn how to adapt to human society. I'm sure if Joss had a chance to in a 6th season, he would've developed her character more on that

Other than that, I love how Wesley is becoming a sort of mad genius. Then there's Spike who delivered some hilarious lines during the fight scene at the beginning with Illiriya.

"Dear Penthouse..."

I've remained spoiler-free for these last few unaired episodes, so I'm going out on a limb to say that they purposely kept her around because Hamilton said the Senior Partners didn't like her.

On the Angel front, i think he realized that maybe the Senior Partners had these plans set that they knew he would break, making it more difficult for him to advance in winning the apocalypse. With that in mind, maybe he just decided to go with the flow instead of resisting it. I'm probably way off, but there's my two cents.

BlindHawkeyes | April 29, 07:39 CET

I believe the ending scene with Angel and The Young Mother establishes that Angel has just made his "next plot," that Illyria will be his weapon. Illyria's lines on how to be a true king: "destroy everything not utterly yours" "all that matters if victory" (paraphrase). Add to this her "Universal Force" concept of existence and she makes the perfect warrior - that is of course only if she agrees to fight with them. Illyria makes a wonderful Kali metaphor - the destroyer that will bring change - new forms out of the past ones.

Loved the reference to "Chosen" - that she would rather be a "titanic crater" than live in her hybrid state (paraphrase). Not sure that it was meant in this context, but I took it as a nice tribute to Spike's role in "Chosen."

nmcil | April 29, 10:16 CET

I think also that Angel was galvanized by seeing everyone killed, including himself, then being able to get them back.

At least, I'd like to think that was a big part of his underlying motivation.

jeebs | April 29, 10:58 CET

I loved this episode. Wonky. Lots of Amy Acker. The Wesley/Illyria interactions are what have kept me coming back over these last few episodes; team ME has handled the character shift with such impressive grace. Angel has a mission and a plan. I want a 6th season more than ever.

I dunno. I'm falling for the blue girl myself.

friarfunk | April 29, 11:29 CET

I expect that Illyria's experience with the Wolf, Ram and Hart will be invaluable as the season comes to a close. It seemed very obvious to me that WR&H want her out of the picture after Hamilton 'nonchalantly' pointed out how to track her and set the gang in motion. I'm also still holding out hope for a tiny bit more of Fred to blossom in her. I thought that the last episode perfectly set the stage for just that. On top of the memories that lingered when she took over Fred's shell, she now has all those memories of the Connor days.

I'm hesitantly looking forward to next weeks episode. It's not to be missed but I hope that we also get some forward motion on the greater arc of the season. I may be in the minority, but I'd rather be left wondering about 'it' if it means devoting nearly an entire episode to the detriment of the bigger picture.

They have TV movies for that thing, or better yet, theatrical ones. I trust ME, I'm sure this will fit perfectly and make me eat my words. Either way, I'm sure I'll be happy as a clam to have a new episode next Wednesday, as I am every time I get a fix!

Haborym | April 29, 13:34 CET

Does anyone think that Hamilton was TOO happy to give the admission of the partners not wanting Illyria around? I mean maybe they actually do...and played Angel. I dunno, just a thought.

Absolutely loved this ep. Since I'm spoiler free...I was shocked with the Illyria killing our fang gang scene. Whoa! Glad that was turned around!

The preview for next weeks episode made me laugh out loud. "Hop on the back...No!" (paraphrase)...then they ride off with Angel holding onto Spike. PRICELESS!!! lol

I'm so excited to see every new episode coming up...but extremely sad because it just brings me closer to the end. I know everyone keeps saying it and I must too...Why, oh why is this the show that gets cancelled? Did you see the promo for Charmed during an Angel commercial? Please...leather on these girls again?...It's just T&A. T&A over quality storytelling. Angel makes you think, discuss, and pray that somehow, someway...there was a season 6!!! Why, oh why not? Okay...I'm beginning to type very hard and realize that my blood pressure is spiking! Must calm down now and focus on the possibility of movies.

You get my point.

Coll | April 29, 17:25 CET

At the end, I think Angel resolved himself to look at the bigger picture instead of fighting small battles that distract him from the bigger war.

fate's bitch | April 29, 18:09 CET

"Unstuck in time..."

Prufrock, maybe it was just coincidence (but I don't think so) that Spike asked what Angel had in mind for Illyria..."Pasture...or slaughterhouse?"

Chris in Virginia | April 29, 19:46 CET

Could the pasture reference be an internal continuity nod back to Angel in the peaceful pasture setting in 'Soul Purpose'?

That episode is so important to this season, but like 'Restless' it's taking its sweet time to unfold. Dreams operate on their own logic, and at their own pace. SP had a similar emphasis to TB on the difference between what is "real" and what is not. The phrase 'putting someone out to pasture' is usually used in a derogatory way, meaning they've expended their usefulness and, out of some residual regard for their past achievements, are being let out to graze away their remaining days, chewing cud and staring blankly into space. It seems likely that's what Eve wanted Angel to do -- 'sit this one out'. Too bad he's changed his mind.

The gang around Angel in that pasture scene consisted of Fred, Wes, Gunn and Lorne. Fred sat down on the arm of his chair in a completely familiar way, and at the time of the episode I thought about the symbolism of that. Chairs in dreams often represent the right of leadership and authority, as of kings and rulers. Fred sat on the arm of Angel's chair as if she had a right to do so, her head even above his (usurping his authority? challenging it? or supporting it?), and at the time I couldn't really understand what the significance might be. Fred, I noticed, was also the first of the gang to scream. It all seems like perfectly telegraphed Illyria foreshadowing, in retrospect.

A little dialogue from the pasture scene in SP:

ANGEL
But I'm not finished.
WESLEY
You are if you want to be.
FRED
It'll be fine. Great, actually. All you have to do is stop caring. Just— [throws back her head in a painful, screeching scream]

'Stop caring' is basically what Illyria told Angel to do -- stop sentimentalizing everything. Start utilizing your resources to attack the problem, instead of letting those who are the problem manipulate and distract you by using your known weaknesses/morality against you. It seemed, at the end, that he listened.

So much to ponder. I can't believe how rich these episodes continue to be. No, wait. Yes I can. Because this is a Joss show, and they are a breed apart. Which remembrance just makes me the craziest, sickest mixture of happy and sad inside when I think about it.

Wiseblood | April 29, 23:34 CET