Interesting. Herc hardly has a bad thing to say but still only gives it 3,5. Ah well I don't always follow his reasoning.

I thought it was a very good ep, but then lately there've not been many bad ones to begin with. I like it when they try complex time plots like this and manage to keep it clear and even maintain a sense of logic within the ideas. Also an ep where they managed to give everyone at least something to do. Lorne had some good funny moments.

Love Illyria's 'solution' to the hell dimension problem, hehe.

Good Spike moments too. "Dear Penthouse, I don't usually write, but..." hehehe. Or Angels 'freaking out' over the time jumps. And I love how Wes can descend almost into madness, yet somehow believably still be the most focused of the bunch.

And when they get killed....heh, you can't help but go 'woah'. I love how this show's every ep can give me a moment or a couple of moments of that feeling. And next week seems to be promising! That's gonna be a hoot. And kind of what I hoped/predicted might happen to the whole triangle thing of Angel-Buffy-Spike. Well don't know yet of course, but I got a feeling....

Damn I'm gonna miss this show so badly.

EdDantes | April 29, 09:58 CET

I'm going to miss this show too. It just gets better and better. I didn't understand Hercules' rating or the "Angel is evil" comment either. Whatever.

Angel freaking out over the time-traveling was hysterical. I loved the "enough of the when-we-were-muck stories" line (although I can't remember the exact phrasing). I laughed out loud at that one. There were alot of witty and quotable lines in this episode.

I am still loving Illyria's nostalgic speeches and Wesley acting borderline nutso was interesting to see. It gives you a glimpse of what he could turn into if pushed hard enough. At times he seems to be teetering on the edge of insanity. I love how Illyria's presence has gotten under his skin. I also think his focusing on researching her is his way of escaping the pain of losing Fred.

God now I'm going to cry. I adore Wesley so much.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-04-29 08:32 ]

electricspacegirl | April 29, 10:30 CET

Great Episode! Don't where Herc got that 3.5 stars from but, whatever.

Didn't get his "Angel turns evil, again" line, either. I know the writers have a tendency to fall back on the ol' Angelus appearance, but that hasn't happened...yet.

But I did appreciate Herc's "First Contact" allusion because the episode's plot did remind me of a Star Trek: TNG script...in a good way, of course. Especially with Illyria's use of the word 'construct'.

Laugh out loud moments: "We'll try an organic cola." Crazy Wesley tapping his watch.

"Whoa" moments: Illyria's 'desk attack'. Spike's dusting.

protector | April 29, 16:11 CET

The episode was great! Now...

Herc says Angel is evil - Not so, I think Angel has a plan and we don't know it yet. A light bulb (not the kind from the basement) went off in Angel's head when he was talking with Illyria and she spoke of winning a war and not compromising.

Herc says Wesley was fine - that's odd, I think the whole scene in Wesley's office demonstrated that he is not fine, he is barely holding himself together, he came off as boarderline nutsy.

And yes - lots of good laughs during the episode. Organic colas, the muck story, a bit pessimistic.

Herc gave the epidsode 3.5 - I would rate it higher. Ben Edlund is writing great stuff.

Passion | April 29, 16:55 CET

I haven't read any spoilers for the rest of this season, and I freaked for a second when Spike got dusted. Then Wes, Lorne, and Angel...that was a great twist. I loved this episode! The writing recently has been like poetry, and it reminds me of some of my favorites BtVS bits - moments like the Buffy/Faith dream in Graduation Day II or the dream episode at the end of Season 4. I love that when the episode is over, there is still so much to think back over and try to figure out. I am so going to miss having a TV show that actually requires you to leave your brain on while you watch it.

irish | April 29, 16:55 CET

I'm spoiler free too for the first time irish...and I thought the same thing when Spike was dusted...NOOOOOOOOoooooo...but thankfully...all ended well. Whew....close one!

Coll | April 29, 17:05 CET

Great episode! One of the best yet! Hope to see much more like this one!

Gio | April 29, 17:47 CET

What a great episode! I keep playing the time travel over in my head checking the logic and such. I do love television that makes us think!

It just doesn't seem like 3 hours minus commercials is enough to give this show the kind of finale it deserves! Although... I don't think it deserves a finale yet. I swear this season gets better and better. I'm not sure what to think of the preview for next week... the blonde Buffy hair but no Buffy. I'm sure the Spike/Angel interaction will be quite the witty banter we've come to expect from them.

fate's bitch | April 29, 18:07 CET

Im all spoiled and kmow everything I can find out,and it still made my heart jump to see Spike dusted.I might have had a seizure if I hadnt been spoiled.

tony | April 29, 18:12 CET

You know just to be a bit spoilery if you will (without releasing any actual information)- Herc has read the spoilers until the last episode - so if this episode only got a 3.5 maybe that's because compared to the final episodes that rating may be the correct one .... ever think of that :)

RavenU | April 29, 19:20 CET

I really liked this episode and thought it deserved more than 3.5 stars too but maybe it's hard to score and episode when they've all been so great lately. I loved Spike's penthouse comment and Illyria's solution to Gunn's problem. I gasped in shock when Spike got staked but quickly realized it hadn't happened yet in real time. I loved that Angel stepped in to save him and almost got dusted in the process. I absolutely loved all the Lorne moments. I loved it when he was asking Illyria what gave it away that he was tailing her and his "was it in the elevator that you figured it out?" (paraphrasing there). That just immediately popped into my head him standing right next to her trying to act like he wasn't there. I also loved, loved, loved his comment about Hamilton and "still liking him better than Eve". Totally agree with him there!

I only have one small problem with this episode and it was Illyria's hair. In the past episodes her hair has been kind of wild looking and puffed up and it was smoothed down and neat looking in this episode. It looked too Fred like to me.

And yes it totally upsets me to see a promo for Charmed, yet again, using Phoebe in some overly revealing outfit to sell the show and here we are depressed about Angel getting canceled. To me, this has been the finest season of Angel and it still feels fresh and exciting and that they could do so much more. It doesn't feel done, and feels more like it is only halfway through its story.

Okay, I know this is just total speculation and isn't going to happen but I'm half hoping that SMG is really going to be in next weeks episode and this has been an elaborate plan by both ME and her to keep the secret under wraps as a way of slapping the WB in the face for it's abrupt ending of Angel. They managed to keep Lindsey a major secret so why wouldn't they want to keep SMG one too. They aren't trying to drum up more viewers because there is no next year to worry about so why give the WB the opportunity to promote the big return of Buffy. Again, just speculation, I know it's not going to happen but I'd be thrilled if it was a ploy and they pulled it off. And it would be a nice gift for us faithful viewers who would be watching no matter what and not tuning in just to see a guest star (even one as fantastic as SMG).

Firefly Flanatic | April 29, 19:23 CET

blwessels - I'm hoping the same thing about SMG. I almost don't see the point of giving resolution to the Buffy thing with Spike and Angel without actually having her on the show. I may be in the minority, but in my opinion, I'd rather see stories and resolution with the rest of the Angel characters than spend one of the last few hours of Angel on Buffy. I love Buffy, but still...

fate's bitch | April 29, 19:30 CET

Okay. So. Was Gunn left in the hell dimension at the end of the episode? He was saved and then he wasn't.. right? Or am I missing something? And now DeadFred is too weak to go in and do what she did before...

I loved the moment when Gunn explained to DeadFred why he couldn't leave, because someone had to take his place, and she just looked like a cat about to figure out how to get the canary out of the cage with that delicious twitch of her head. Brilliant performance from Acker throughout. I didn't see Fred anymore at all. In previous performances I was afraid she couldn't pull off Ilyria but I'm completely won over now. She's got mad range as an actress.

Next week, at the risk of being spoilerific (and this is more speculative based on the 'next week' teaser at the end of this episode) I don't think it's gonna be about chasing Buffy at all. I mean, they'll be chasing what they think is buffy. They may think it's Buffy they're following, and they may think it's all about Buffy and it may or may not actually BE Buffy (I so doubt it'll be SMG no matter what). That's not gonna matter. We're gonna flashback to when Spike & Angelus were best buds and intermittent competitors for the affections of Dru and Dar, and we're going to learn why both of these guys found Buffy so irresistible. It's got nothing to do with Buffy, I'd wager. In other words, I'm hoping they'll reach a final and unremorseful closure to the B/A-B/S thing. And believe me. SMG won't need to be in a single frame to get the resolution on that. Both men were always in love with THE IDEA of loving Buffy, and not the girl herself. Don't get me wrong. They do care about Buffy, but ultimately both of them have to come to terms with their respective relationships with her, and why and how it went sour and that it's okay and they can move on.

Buffy's cookie dough analogy was corny but astute. The boys need to find a similar resolution. Hopefully though it won't have anything to do with cookie dough. They need closure as characters. We need closure as the audience. Although there will always be factions of fans who demand that their horse wins the race and that Buffy ends up in X's arms or Y's arms, the truth is nothing lasts forever. Especially in California. =)

Oh. One more thing. Hercules' rating of 3.5 stars. If you look at his answer key it makes perfect sense. Three stars means the show is actually worth your time. Four stars means a show is motion picture caliber. Last night's episode of Angel was more than worth our time but certainly not silver screen quality. So 3.5 was the only rating he coulda given it.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2004-04-29 17:54 ]

ZachsMind | April 29, 19:40 CET

Zachsmind - Gunn was in the last scene when Angel called those demon guys into the office to close the deal. Gunn was confused and upset that Angel was going to hold the pregnant woman to her contract so I think that answers your question.

I just want to clear up any confusion to my comments about Illyria's hair. I liked it better when it was all puffy and messy and thought it looked more like Fred's hair this past episode but I still think Amy Acker has done an excellent job portraying Illyria. The character is nothing like Fred at all and I'm thrilled that she had this opportunity to show we the fans and any interested casting people out there just how talented she really, truly is.

Firefly Flanatic | April 29, 19:54 CET

" I loved the "enough of the when-we-were-muck stories""

I know! And they know that's what WE were thinking, so they work that in. Joss' shows have always been good at that.

"Herc says Angel is evil - Not so, I think Angel has a plan and we don't know it yet. "

That's exactly what I thought. He's found his plan of attack. Herc was probably trying to be dramatic. Or something.

"And yes it totally upsets me to see a promo for Charmed, yet again, using Phoebe in some overly revealing outfit to sell the show and here we are depressed about Angel getting canceled. "

I KNOW! And I have nothing against women in tight vinyl, but this was just aggravating! "Oooh, every ep is a silly gimmick ep, and is mostly about watching Alyssa be pretty in outfits! But THEY are getting another season. ARGH!"

Zachsmind, you make some very interesting points about the B/A/S triangle. Personally, I think it will really be Buffy, but that we won't see her other than from a distance and from behind, and that she will never see them. And the ep will obviously be about Spike and Angel and THEIR relationship. But then that has been the 'ship' of the season anyway. The reluctant brothers. And frankly it's been a beaut.

"They do care about Buffy, but ultimately both of them have to come to terms with their respective relationships with her, and why and how it went sour and that it's okay and they can move on. "

Amen to that.

Both of them running around Italy, for the girl they both love and neither are going to get...that scene on the scooter... hehe I'm looking forward to this one.

EdDantes | April 29, 20:50 CET

I'm spoiler-free...and EdDantes...please tell me that you aren't giving anything away up there with your last paragraph...."for the girl they both love and neither are going to get"?????? Please tell me this is just your thoughts and nothing you all ready know....okay...don't tell me and I can think that it is your own thoughts and nothing you all ready know because if it is something you all ready know...then I'm going to be extremely upset. I don't want to know and if I do know, I want it to be the ending I want to know!!! LOL I'm sorry but I'm a B/A shipper. As open-minded as I try to be...it's in my heart...I'm not fanatical...but I can at least hope for 3 more episodes...so please don't let it be what your posts leads me to believe. LOL Okay...sorry about the numerous run-on sentences. ;)

Coll | April 29, 21:08 CET

I give Herc a 3.5 for his review.

aftermac | April 29, 21:10 CET

When someone made the comment about Wes' recent demeanor - I think it was Lorne - it got me thinking about what might be happening with Wesley. (Keep in mind, I'm spoiler-free.)

Something was said about how Wes is neurotic and nutty one second, then completely cold and solemn the next. (Far from exact quote.) The neurotic side could be brought on by the original Connor-related memories. While the numb, almost emotionless, side is from more recent events - such as the loss of Fred. Basically, two different sets of memories can create two different people. So it's possible that Wes is being split in half while he's adjusting to these 'new' memories. He's essentially become two people sharing one body. Now that I think about it, kind of like Illyria. Though Fred is dead, Illyria still has her memories.

I could be way off... but there has to be more to having Wes go quickly from insane and jittery to fully composed, then back again. This is just one possible idea I came up with. There are several ways that could play out that possibility.

Also - I LOVE Amy's performance as Illyria. She's quickly become my favorite Whedonverse actor. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we'll see an Angel movie, whether it be for TV or silver screen, because I just can't see the series ending now. And I can't wait for season five to hit DVD.

Greyflowers | April 29, 22:05 CET

Actually I like Illyria's when-we-were-muck stories. She's so ancient and poetic. I could listen to her talk all day, but I'm probably alone in that.

electricspacegirl | April 29, 22:27 CET

I just wish DeadFred would get over herself. I agreed with Angel. We know already! You are old as mountains and you were all powerful way back when but now you're just miniscule flotsam and jetsam with the rest of us like it or not. Sure back in your day gods had to travel uphill both ways to destroy mankind repeatedly and you was THANKFUL. Get over yourself and put a sock in it! ..but I'm probably alone in that.

Yes, I remember Gunn being there at the end of the episode, but Ilyria didn't save him the second time. She talked about saving him but didn't actually do it, and Gunn wasn't on the ground in the tableau there at the end. So after Wesley shot Ilyria with the gun and siphoned off her energy, there had to be some point between there and the end of the episode where they went BACK to the hell dimension again and saved Gunn a THIRD time.

I think.

And as for whether or not the end result of next week's episode is something we know, I've always been a plotter and not a shipper, and the only logical way to end the romantic triangle plot between these two "brothers" and Buffy is to have neither of them get the girl. Both Angel and Spike knew Buffy romantically for only a couple years. They've been bitter enemies and best friends for over a century. Blood is thicker than tears, and they're thick as thieves.

If Buffy ever ends up with one of those two over the other, I'll be mightily put out, and I think that goes for the majority of the fan base, although the diehard shippers won't realize it until after it happens.

Kinda like back when Scully and Mulder kissed in the movie. I coulda told you the franchise would go downhill in that moment, but most people didn't believe me until well after X-Files was over and then everybody knew. They shoulda never kissed.

By the time Buffy realizes, be it in movies or television or comic books or whatever this franchise may have in store for the future, that she's no longer just cookie dough, she's gonna realize she never needed either of those two guys to make her complete and happy. Angel and Spike were each what Buffy needed at the time, and she was what they needed at the time. It all worked out for the best, but in the end they'll serve one another much more faithfully by being FRIENDS and caring for one another far more than they ever could just romantically.

Strangely enough, Xander figured this out in Buffy season four, when he told her to chase after Riley. Xander's smarter than both Angel and Spike put together.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2004-04-29 21:00 ]

ZachsMind | April 29, 22:53 CET

ZachsMind, Scully and Mulder kissed in the movie? I remember them almost kissing until she was stung by the bee and went into shock. I know they kissed in the series finale, and maybe before that. Man it's odd I can't remember exactly when they kissed. It seems like ages ago when I was a hardcore X-Files fan. That was pre-Buffy, where everything before now seems like a whole other life.

electricspacegirl | April 29, 23:13 CET

I remember them almost kissing until she was stung by the bee and went into shock. I know they kissed in the series finale, and maybe before that. Man it's odd I can't remember exactly when they kissed. It seems like ages ago when I was a hardcore X-Files fan. That was pre-Buffy, where everything before now seems like a whole other life.

Wow, electricspacegirl, I'm exactly the same, word for word. Can you believe they're talking about another XF movie?

That's fine, and I might even go see it. But this is right now, not 'sometime in the near future', and I want Angel movies. That, and only that, will console me for the end of this amazing season.

Wiseblood | April 29, 23:47 CET

The bee was a cheesy plot device to avoid actually going for it, but the fact is the two of them got all doey-eyed at each other IN the movie, and any hope for the franchise continuing to be just about two people who were partners and friends and could love one another platonically without the whole silly sex thing getting in the way was ruined. From that point on they might as well have started showing reruns of Moonlighting or Remington Steele.

ZachsMind | April 30, 00:05 CET

Yep. 'Shipping is evil. Ruined XF for me, ZachsMind. Glad that in spite of pressure from some fans to turn the suds on non-stop on Angel, the writers never caved. There's a million other shows out there for that. And everyone knows hearts in the Jossverse are made to be broken.

Soap and vampires just don't mix. Keep 'em dirty, I say. ;)

Wiseblood | April 30, 00:13 CET

scully and mulder kissed in the finale, but i dont remember them kissing in the movie......and i would not say the series went downhill from there, the x-files was great right up to the end.

norman | April 30, 00:49 CET

The pregnant girl was Jamie Bergman, right? That would make her dialog about her husband being brain damaged in an accident at work hilarious!

vpecoraro | April 30, 00:59 CET

ZachsMind, There was sexual tension between Scully and Mulder throughout the series since the beginning. Chris Carter had said he would never put them together romantically because there would be no where left to go. And yet, in the end, he gave us what we wanted, not what we needed. Who knows, maybe they've broken up by the time the new movie comes out.

I'm looking forward to it. I have always loved The X-Files and even at one point was hesitant to say Buffy's better. I won't compare the two but I only know that I never felt inspired to write fanfiction or RPG or fantasize about the The X-Files characters in my spare time. Buffy's special that way.

electricspacegirl | April 30, 01:17 CET

This episode was great! Herc should have given it a higher reating, but eh. I really think Amy is becoming greater each week. She does it so well, I'm like "Fred who?". Illyria is a great character and its about time that she got to show off her coolness in an entire episode. Although the fact that she has been weakened is very dissappointing.Now what is she going to do? I also thought that Jamie Bergman would have a lot more to do...guess not. Well knowing Joss he had a good reason for making Illyria weaker, hopefully its for the best.

Gio | April 30, 05:10 CET

Another point of interest: With "Time Bomb," Skip Schoolnik was promoted to Producer (from Co-Producer).

Invisible Green | April 30, 06:30 CET

Although the fact that she has been weakened is very dissappointing.Now what is she going to do?

Wes said the Mutari generator (that's so Star Trek-y it makes me laugh) created a pinhole to an infinite interdimensional space where her power -- her 'essence', I believe -- could be stored in a negatively charged pocket universe. Yes, I took notes last night. ;)

That sounded to me like he managed to suck Illyria's power away, but also save it somewhere they could have access to it again later. Maybe it can be put back into her again, or its force channeled through her, if need be? Or used like a bomb to generate a matter/anti-matter-type explosion to destroy something? Otherwise, why make a point of saying they saved it in the first place?

(Just thinking: Negative charged pocket universes probably have some very interesting lint.)

Wiseblood | April 30, 08:33 CET