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"We gotta go to the crappy town where I'm the hero!"
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April 29 2004

"Angel" staked a 2.7/4 for The WB in the Fast National ratings for Wednesday, April 28, 2004. In other news, OTH has now been renewed - leaving Angel the only full season drama to be axe by the network.

"The WB has picked up sizzling drama ONE TREE HILL for the 2004-2005 season, it was announced today by Jordan Levin, the network's Co-CEO."

If One Tree Hill sizzles, I'm God's gift to women. *rolls eyes*
I hope the tree on the hill gets hit by lightning, falls over and smashes Levin into an unrecognizable pulp.

Not that I'm mad.
One Tree Hill - a tangled web of crap!
Everyday I wish that there was intelligent life in space!
For comparison, Smallville's Fast Nationals were 2.8/5, the same as the week's prior -- however last week's ANGEL got a 2.5/4.

Tuesday's One Tree Hill did 2.9/4. Sad, indeed.
"The moon is up...and over One Tree Hill...we see the sun go your eyes..."
didnt seem like angel did that great this week.........
Uh ok but these are different ratings than we usually follow....those are more like 3.8/4. God, I'll never get this system and all the different ratings or why they differ.

But I do notice Angel and Smallville got pretty similar ratings there...yet that and One Tree Hill get renewed, suuuuure......

Also? Why are there sweeps? Every single show that goes on hiatus has lower ratings than before when they get back! It goes out of people's routine to watch them. What's the purpose?
My blood pressure is spiking over this OTH STUPIDITY. I need to get a Levin voodoo doll stat and start with the abuse. That doll is going to go through some serious hell.

This ratings stuff continues to make no sense. It's tragic that if and when the "cure" happens for the diseased ratings system it'll be too late to save AtS.
If the WB show had even one quintillionth the intelligence or emotion of the U2 song, it would be good. But alas, no.
"Also? Why are there sweeps? Every single show that goes on hiatus has lower ratings than before when they get back! It goes out of people's routine to watch them. What's the purpose?"

Sweeps ratings are more expensive to produce due to the number of participants during sweeps, however they are also more accurate and therefore of more use to the advetisers, in judging the value of an advert.

The total TV watching audiance isnt constant, more people will stay in when its cold and dark outside, and people make more time for TV in the fall after therve been subjected to months of repeats. Because of this seasonal varriation it is neccessary to make sweep months an equidistance a part, so we have November, Febuary, May and the often forgotten August. This would give advetisers an accurate picture of ratings expectations throughout the year if the networks didnt ensure that all new episodes or specials aired in 3 of the 4 sweep months.

If networks were seeking the highest ratings purely for new episodes then they'd be best advised to run it continuously from mid September to March 1st with a two week break for christmas and some shows missing a week arround thanksgiving. However networks opperate all year round and must also relly on repeats ratings to make their buck.

Incidentally Angel beat Smallville in 18-49
Quarterly "Sweeps" set the cost of advertising in local markets. Nielsen Media Research sends out 250,000 paper diaries to homes around the US, asking they fill in everything people watch in 15-minute intervals for one week.


What the Nielsen company doesn't reveal is that fewer than a third are returned; fewer still from minorities and teens. And many of the diaries, anecdotally, are filled in after-the-fact, based on memory and even suggestions from others of what people watch.

Which is why the Nielsens have been under pressure to reform. So far, the best they've come up with are Local People Meter (LPM) systems, the first of which went into effect in Boston in May 2002. They want to roll out the system in New York and LA, but have come under a great deal of fire, when tests showed the LPM gave vastly lower ratings for shows with predominantly minority casts/audiences.

Check out this story from Wired, from April 16
phlebotinin-- I still have my Levin voodoo dolly. I don't know what to stick pins in anymore. I was going for the heart, but he doesn't seem to have one.
I can think of place to stick some pins... but he probably isn't much of a man and probably doesn't have any of those either.
bloodflowers/blwessels -- you are both so right! Levin c has neither a heart nor your basic male "package." Hmmm. How to get around this? I'd say the brain, but that clearly doesn't exist either. Oy.
Does it have pockets? I'd say tear holes in them and hope it makes him lose all his money.
I say stick a pin in his posterior. Because although he doesn't have a heart, brain, or genitalia, he certainly IS an ass.
I was going for the heart, but he doesn't seem to have one.

I say stick a pin in his posterior. Because although he doesn't have a heart, brain, or genitalia, he certainly IS an ass.

Maybe he's Pylean? His heart could be in his left buttcheek. And about the lack of obvious green on the outside? He's in Hollywood -- they can do wonders with plastic surgery these days.

Offhand, though, I'd say his insides are yellow...

[ edited by Wiseblood on 2004-04-29 22:15 ]
I am so sick of Nielsen dominating over every network. Someone needs to take them down.
Yeah, exactly. Also because they are so dubious. I mean technically, of a thousand nielsen families, only 2% can watch a show, while over all of america it's really 15%. There's no way of knowing.

And btw, I've done some checking, and overall, Angel has been pretty consistent in the ratings. A little higher in the first half, little drop off after sweeps (like all shows. And thanks for the explanation guys, but I still so more downsides to it for networks than upsides.) But overall pretty level.

Smallville however has shown a significant decline in it's ratings this season. In one particular system, it started in the 6.6 and gradually dropped to the high 5's, then the low, and now it's pretty consistent in the 4.5's. That's what, a 30% drop? Ouch.
Smallville actually had a lower demo than ATS this week. In Households we got a 2.7 while they got a 2.8.

I think Wednesday has done pretty well for the WB, considering the competition on the other channels. I'll never understand this.
Ok on this other site they have the ratings in the system I've been following and it puts Angel's 'Timebomb' at 3.8/5 which is still pretty consistent with what it has been for most of the second half of the season. So pretty much where they were and no sudden drop as I momentarily thought.

We should just be careful not to mix up numbers of different tables....
Just in case anyone who may be lurking thinks I escaped from the booby hatch (there's got to be a Charmed joke in there somewhere): My voodoo dolly is/was to persuade a change of heart. I'm not vindictive . Much. If I meant any real harm I might say something like, "Oh, look at that. The light has gone out at the end of the tunnel again. Mr Levin, would you mind going to the basement to fetch another lightbulb? There's a demon fellow down there who might be able to assist you."
Nice, bloodflowers. And fitting. But you use your voodoo doll to change his mind?? A TV exec?? Give me that doll ye daft pansie!!

*sounds of baseball bat smashing into voodoo doll*
If Smallville is receiving the same number of ratings as Angel, and lets face it, isn't even very good, then why haen't they axed that crap yet. As for One Tree Hill, its just something to fill the Dawson void, and isn't the WB all about teens. I just think that it sucks how Angel got the Axe when many others shoud have clearly been struck with it before Angel's future even became a question. Oh well, with a network always lagging behind in the ratings, their bound to take it out on someone, and why not those 7th Heaven fans...can anyone honestly tell me that 7th Heaven, Charmed, Samllville, or Jamie Kennedy experiment bring in more rating than Angel, maybe about the same or less I'd say. Well I have this much to say, once Charmed leaves the network next season, the Wb is one network I won't be tuning in to.
EdDantes--I can't change my dolly's mind because he has a hard clay head. He also has little wispy twigs where his arms and legs should be so no ripping him limb from limb either.
We should just be careful not to mix up numbers of different tables - EdDantes

The description of the link is pretty clear that these are the Fast National ratings (aka Overnight Ratings) and not the National Ratings that I believe you are looking at. They are the same "system", just differently sized pools of people.

In the end, the national ratings are the ones that matter, but the overnights come out quicker.
Aren't the fast nationals different from the overnights?
"The description of the link is pretty clear that these are the Fast National ratings (aka Overnight Ratings) and not the National Ratings that I believe you are looking at. They are the same "system", just differently sized pools of people."

We shouldn't compare numbers that are not in the same table. And that's what I've accidentally been doing sometimes. And yes, it's the same "system" but it's a separate caculation with different variables. So should not be compared. That was all I meant.

I saw people post in this and similar threads their dissappointment that Angel did badly, seeing a lower number, when that number can't be compared to the one last week if it wasn't in the same specific nielsen set.

And since all those numbers not only differ, but also are as dubious in their reliability the actually reflect audience size as the entire Nielsen system, the only thing I use it for is relative comparison of one specific table to see what the general consistency seems to be. If Angel goes from 3.9 to 2.7 in the same pool, then that is a serious drop off. If in that pool it's actual from 3.9 to 3.8, or from 2.8 to 2.7 in another one, the ratings are basically consistent.
For the sake of clearing up confusion-- Nielsen has two systems for daily ratings:

The Fast National ratings are based on the 5100 Nielsen households which are scattered around the 210 TV markets in the US. They are selected via Nielsen's arcane sampling process which everyone questions. The numbers are lower for ANGEL in this pool because they are supposed to represent many more households. It's called "Fast National" because they are the uncorrected preliminary data from those homes -- a week later, the "Final Nationals" come out. The system used is the "People Meter," an electronic recording device which each member of the household (and guests) have to punch in to use. People Meters are supposed to be more accurate, but the roll-out for local versions has been stalled due to concerns about how well they represent minorities.

The Metered Markets are aimed for local station's ratings, and are known as the "Overnights" -- they come from the ~22,000 Nielsen houses in 56 Designated Market Areas (DMAs), representing 69.6% of the TV audience. These use an electronic set-tuning "meter" which is not keyed to any particular family member. ANGEL typically appears to do better in these, because they represent the larger "urban" areas.

See: Nielsen Metered Markets

However, the latest episode's numbers showed something rather odd: in the "more accurate" national People Meters, ANGEL's ratings went up; in the wider "set-tuned" metered-markets, ANGEL's ratings went down.

So who do you believe?
Numbers are only believable if you trust the people calulating them. Cause most figures can be manipulated to come closer to the desired out come that's why a lot of network affiliates refer to the Nielsen's rating system as fuzzy math.
Who Do you believe?

All my friends and family who have stopped watching. The fanfic readers who have written me about how disappointed they are with Spikes characterization. I know a lot of you have people who are still watching but I know a lot who have stopped. Reason? Too painful.

I'm the sole witness I know to the end. And I should stop...but I can't...cuz...well...addicted you see.

I'll skip next weeks ep--sure don't wanna see that. And I'm pretty sure I'll come back for the end. If I don't have the stomach to watch right now, I'll probaly tape and watch later.

I predict a bigger dip next week for the same reason I'm staying away. Sorry guys, wanna be loyal--but I just can't take the message that love equals a slam dunk. JM said on Sharon Osborne that Angel and Spike get made fools of--I believe him and I sure don't wanna see that. And I don't trust Joss anymore to even out the story with balance. I haven't read the spoilers for the end but I have skimmed a couple of peoples reactions to the spoilers and I gotta admit, I'm scared to watch.

Go ahead and get mad at me, but I'm only posting this so you remember that this season opened with over 5 million viewers and it's now almost below 3 million and there's a reason why. There's a war going on and people can't take more pain without a measure of love. It is well known that love stories do well during wartime and balance is the reason why. Joss is out of tune in these times and his tough love is hard to take.

I've said this before but it bears repeating--BTVS began when times were good; well now times are bad, very bad. His playing rough in 96, 97 even all the way to 2002 worked. But sooner or later you gotta pay it off when the seasons change or people will go insane. As many flaming posts we've all read can attest to. Why did we get so mad? Why are we so invested?

We need the harvest, the payoff and we need it badly.

(Of course when I say 'we' I just assume you all will fall down in a gasp agreeing with me. I'm chuckling as I write this)

It's like a farmer planting seeds forever and always going back to squares. The thing is, we know Joss will never pay it off because he has admitted that the perpetual struggle is part of his storytelling vision. Knowing he will never pay something off but always disasemble and pull the Lucy on Charlie Brown is too hard for me to take right now and I was such a hard core Whedonite you wouldn't believe it from the way I talk these days. And if it's put me off, it'll put other people off.

That said I'll say again--this doesn't mean he is a bad storyteller; usually, that is, shooting par--I think he's just terribly out of tune right now with what's needed for most people. (obviously not hard core Angel fans)

But you see, part of the goal this year was to develope a new audiance--it was the stated objective--well I'm betting all those new viwers were mostly women and then he goes and removes all the female energy from the show leaving nothing, no one for a woman to identify with. Certainly not Eve or Harmony. What did he expect?

Spike has lost his empathetic quality. And Lorne and Wesley put together still don't project enough female energy into the scenario to soften the blow. Illeryia is an 'it'--and 'it' has melted all of Fred's lovely inards away. No female oragns no vagina and lets not forget The sucker punch of Cordys death. We thought we had her, that she was back and then a sucker punch just like the end of Chosen. A sucker punch does not equal story twist. It's just a cheap mystery writer revealing the whosits without giving enough clues to play fair.

These are the kind of stories they have been writing this year. And these are the kind of stories and will and HAVE lost viewers.

They solicated women as an audiance by bringing Spike in and then ignored what women need. The math is easy from there on.

Don't believe? Nielson may be a flawed system but polls based on random sampling are still the best micro for the macro--politcal campiagns use the same structure. Random has a native logic. So now the numbers are wrong but when they boasted over five million last Sept. they were right?

Numbers are numbers. People have stopped watching.

I think people don't wanna hurt and are saying it with viewer votes.
Well isa I'm sorry to hear you're not enjoying this season, but you're kinda the first person on the net I've come across that says all this. Sure there are people who don't like S5, just like any Buffy or Angel season had were people who didn't like what was going on. And I don't mean you're lying, please don't misread me, I'm sure you know all those people, but overall on the net the fan reaction has been positive to S5.

I understand Spuffies in particular miss the softer side of Spike, and I do still think Spike suddenly doing Harmony was a bit much, but I'm surprised you can't even bear to watch.

Personally I'm happy there's more to Spike now than just pining over Buffy. I myself was a bt disenchanted with BuffyS7, where Spike was concerned. Him getting a soul for her was kind of mishandled after "Beneath You" and he just sat around nuts in the basement for half a season. After that he was just moping around most of the time. I was kind of glad to see Spike come into his own this season of Angel.

"and then he goes and removes all the female energy from the show"

That's true, definite lack of female-ness there. Which for different reasons, the men probably regretted too. But how can you say "we thought we had Cordy". Carisma wasn't in the show anymore. Also fail to see how any of that was a 'sucker punch'.

"There's a war going on and people can't take more pain without a measure of love."

Angel is fighting an almost invisible enemy and wonders what the right thing to do is, and he's not sure he's on the right side. I think that is actually pretty much in line with the times. And stories that are not about love and romance, but reflecting the conflicts going on have alwasy come out during war times, so I don't really agree with you there. Also, while what's happening is terrible, it doesn't really have the impact on us like it's WWII or something. People are watching American Idol and the Swan. Not really a nation searching for this generation's Gone with the Wind.

"Numbers are numbers. People have stopped watching"

But the ratings (I've checked several listings on several sites) has been fairly steady. And given the relative consistency, I think it's a bit odd to say 'people have stopped watching' as if absolutely nobody is watching anymore because that's simply not true. And almost every other show has had a drop off as well, (especially Smallville) so I do think your conclusions give a bit of a simplistic twist on things. Oh and another thing: S5 is still higher rated than any of Angel's other seasons.

"They solicated women as an audiance by bringing Spike in and then ignored what women need. The math is easy from there on."

I do think it's an odd notion that all women care about is romantic soap-elements. I have a feeling that if I said it, women would get mad at me. Aren't there more reasons to watch both BtVS and AtS? And frankly if they had Spike fall in love again, nobody would have accepted it. Fred and Spike? Harmony and Spike? Please, those same women would've hated every inch of that. Just like Angel and Cordy wasn't accepted. And there simply is no Buffy on AtS so what else is there to do?

I have a feeling nothing they could have done would've satisfied the people you refer to. And they had done nothing but romantic angsty stuff with Spike for years now. I do think it was time for a new wind and for things about Spike to be about Spike for a change.
Well as a woman, I have absolutely loved this season. Yes, more of Spike would have been great but for this show he is a new member of the team and if they had put more Spike in then the ones who hate him would've been screaming about that. And there is a major relationship story going on and it's between Angel and Spike. They are finding out who they truly are by seeing themselves in each others eyes.

From my perspective, everyone I know who watches the show has been enjoying this season tremendously and feel it is one of the best if not the best seasons of Angel.

I've enjoyed Spike this season with his interactions with Angel and Fred and now with Illyria. I wouldn't have found it believable if he had suddenly fallen in love with someone else but I think his hopping into bed with Harmony was more a reaction to his becoming corporeal and wanting to experience it to the fullest. He loves Buffy but he has admitted to himself that she doesn't feel the same way and here was this willing beautiful girl all ready to hop in bed with him so he took advantage of it. What guy who just sacrificed himself for the love of his life and the world, who is then brought back and stuck in the presence of the person he feels, at the time, is his worst enemy and in ghost form wouldn't take advantage of the situation when he's made whole again? I dont' blame him!

As for the numbers thing, everything I've read and heard and even said from the WB itself, Angel was doing well ratings wise.

As for Cordy, she was gone way before they put her in the coma last season and it was wonderful to bring her back with much of her old salty personality back and give her a great episode to wrap up her storyline. And even though I wasn't buying the Angel and Cordy love story I had a tear in my eye at the end when she ran back and kissed him and then it's revealed that she's been dead all along. I thought that was brilliant. They could've just left her in the coma but they didn't and I am happy for that. And then they also do a brilliant tribute to the Connor storyline too and neatly tie that one up. I'm loving it all.
I agree with you in a way isa -- those that can't handle Joss's particular brand of "tough love" should definitely stop watching the series. Though I think those people would have stopped sometime after Buffy season 2, which is when the real pain of love, loss and grief began. How did you manage to make it all the way to Angel season 5 before reaching the breaking point?

The generalizations simply aren't true. There are millions of people who are absolutely loving this season of Angel -- women included. And I'm personally thankful for the lack of romance on the series, because every time ATS has attempted a romance I've found it ridiculously boring and contrived. This is my favorite year of the show to date, and I'm willing to take all of the tough love that Joss wants to dish out. Bring on the pain!
every time ATS has attempted a romance I've found it ridiculously boring and contrived.

I have to disagree with that because Wes and Fred were a long time coming. There were a lot of events and conversations and looks and pining away for years that led up to that. It was very believable to me.

I also didn't have as much of a problem with the Angel/Cordy relationship because it was drawn out over an entire season and I accepted that either they were in love or they were disilusioned about their feelings, which happens in real life too. Just because someone says they are in love on the show doesn't mean they are. They might just think it's love or want so badly to be in love that they project that.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.
Err...I should have added that Wes and Fred were an exception to my above statement. I was mainly thinking of Angel/Cordy and Fred/Gunn. I was watching Angel season 3 recently, and Angel/Cordy love story actually pops up completely out of nowhere in the episode right after 'Billy'. It seemed to me that they went from brother/sister to potential lovers in the span of one episode. I really wasn't a fan of that storyline. As for Fred and Gunn...I just found them snoreworthy together. Personal opinion I guess. :)
Hello Ed, evrybody, that's a very fair response--it really helps me to hear what other people are thinking, one of the reasons I came to this site was to get different perspectives.

I'll try not to retread--by female energy I didn't mean hearts and flowers romance, frankly if they had put Spike in that position it would have seemed he was insane. And I agree the thing with Harmony was offensive. (and he did seem insane) My inards curdled.

I meant female energy as receptive, listening, communicative. Hearing about how people are feeling, an exchange of feelings. JM noted that was the first big difference he recognized between the two shows. He said ATS was definately more action driven.
less talking about feelings--he wasn't criticising just observing.

So people talked about their feelings on BTVS as they used to on ATS with Cordy and Fred; as they used to prod these guys--I accept that guys don't like talking about their feelings and it worked and what they had goning on worked. These kinds of discussions are a valuable form of character developemnt and reveal and I've missed it; I think it would have added colors. Though I admit they are doing more of it now though.

Female energy is a receptivity to the heart, to love. Submissive is not as a bad word, it is a place, an experiance everyone should have. It's wonderful to be a woman. To be on the stronger end of that energetic potential. To practice submission is to experiance the power, the humilty of being a leader, and a leader, the best of all leaders: serve.

Male energy is of course about the dynamics of getting it done. And of course Men or Women can and in my opinion should posses elements of both. As a matter of fact Spike had more female energy on BTVS than Buffy. She was the shitka to his shiva.

And it was so healing to see a man receptive to change, all prompted by love (BTVS7) I know many see this as weak but for women starving for men to show the true depth of their feelings--that there is indeed SOMETHING going on in there--Spike is loved and JM respected in many circles for doing just that--Spike BTVS7 was seen as a man at his strongest, Not weakest. The scariest thing for a man to do is to love. Because love brings the prospect of real and permanent change. The promise of it. I don't need to go on, you get it. And I'm sure could debate it. I'm just trying to clarify what was behind the words I wrote.

So now, many Spike Redemptionist see ATS5 Spike as a hollow man, someone without a center. Even though he had lost Buffy at the end of 7--he had found himself, he had beome a man in his own right, after the B/A kiss he stayed because he wanted to--because it was his fight too--didn't run, behaved as a strong man might and now ATS5 has him retro, has him acting like...well an idiot. Not even season 2 Spike was that dense. 2 Spike was savy and able to observe the world around him. Now ATS5 has on many occasions referred to Spike as an idiot and he has behaved like one. 7 saw him solid and a man and now he's pretty much a blowhard. Although these last few eps have seen a small improvement.

But that's not really my complaint. What's stopped me is the pain.

West Wing plays rough but it is in balance. Twin Peaks played rough but was balanced. War And Peace plays rough; all classics et al. Crime and Punishment plays very rough but it even has a 'happy' ending. Pain for the sake of pain does not make it art by default. Rashilnokov (spelling?) is a murderer who earns his redemption by the end of 'Crime and Punishment' He also earns love. He earns this not by deeds, but by introspection, by coming to know the truth of his own nature. Truth is hard. (Another reason to love Spike 7)

The Pain in ATS5 advances nothing. Or mabye it will--but after what's happened this season I'm too scared to open my heart again to see.

Male and Female energy. Action/contemplation


Because ATS5 is missing this--the pain, the deaths, Lucy relentlessly yanking the ball from Charlie...all, all the messages are: "love will kill you. Take that risk and terrible things will happen. Now this of course is Angels metaphor. He, himself, his reaility is the active methaphor about taking such a risk. And I crave that discussion, but whatever...

Anyway all this being drummed into my head in a world at war where conquest of a people is 'doing the right thing,' where a call to love is considered 'liberal' And liberal is a dirty word.
This country was created with liberal principals. Liberty.

As I suspected and last week confirmed, Angel is emerging as Royalist. Entitlment, my kingdom, my way, return the King and free will be damned. In a world where Bush and VP didn't consult Defense Secretary, Colin Powell or National Security advisors (two of the three admitting they knew nothing of the war againest Iraq until plans were underway)

ATS seems to be reinforcing the concept of the right of rulers.
Illeyria is the extreme but Angel fits neatly under her paradigm and she recognizes this and sharpens it for him to see ambition as a solution. What Angel wants to do is always his solution. He never confers, just gives orders. All my hopes for his development by self contemplation guided by Cordys warnings are fast disappearing. The dynamic of 'my way or the highway' is being applauded as being necessary to be a succesfull, strong leader.

With an administration practicing this to my shame--what is Joss saying by seeming to endorse, if not directly but certainly by storytelling proxy.

Of course it's not over yet and things could trasform but...

You know what though? That's all stuff of the mind...that's me trying to figure out why watching this show makes me feel so bad. My heart actually hurts after an ep. I feel a drain on my heart just like in 'Smile Time'. When that happened..I was like YEAH. I know what that feels like.

There is something in the show that hurts and my mind trys to find it...ok jumping track--when Angel and Cordy hugged--I wept. Just cried little happy tears. See, I stay spoiler free and even though I know she was back for an ep I didn't know about the death--that whole show was set up as her being back and alive. The vanity of the hair, all the details of shopping, all that stuff, but nowhere was there a clue as to the nature of what was really happening. Did not play fair. The rules of being a mystery writer should apply to all storytelling and that was bad, bad storytelling.

And again that message--have you noticed? Of course you have--in Joss's world after EVERY expression of love Lucy yanks the football and what does that mean? Even Joyce was killed on the day she got flowers on the eve of a maybe love. What does it mean? I used to think it life like--now it just hurts.

With Cordy, I was like, o.k., she wouldn't be in the show but she was back in the world and maybe she was practing her free will and YAHOO for that. She would be in the world a strong wiser woman and then SLICE. I felt it right through my heart. It is not death. Not death. Warriors die. It is how they have been doing it. To maximize the pain.

Almost as if the whole thing was set up for the delicious pain of that blow. To amplify the twist of the knife. Not a kind piece of writing.

Now I'm not a timid kitten. I'll read Titus Andronicus and chew it down.

I wept almost completely through "The Body." But it was a life story, and life contains death and the ep was painful but brave and wise and healing. I felt cleaned out at but healed at the end. "Seeing Red bathroom scene' was hard to take but, was so brilliant, absolutely brilliant in context of the larger arc--the juvy struggling to find a place that contains love juxtiposed with desire. The struggle of many young men. The selfish indulgment of an adolsecent vs the man in love that Spike was to become. Hard to take but &%#@@ brilliant. In balance. It all ryhmed. It made getting the soul necessary. The additional light to swing the cabose so one has the choice to act more completely from love. Brilliant. Metaphsycially correct.

I can take pain-- but as you say, the hard blows from life contain necessary lessons we shouldn't balk from.

(And I have Loved Joss for it)

But there is somthing different happening for me ever since the end of Chosen and it feels bad, no healing, no intelligence behind it. No poetry; pasted on ideas after the fact, cheap telling of a bad mystery writer and given the previous seasons of both shows; very biazzare to me--and everyone on the show seemedso happy with the product and eveyone keept saying it's great but the pain in my body is a mindless thing it tells me something is wrong. In the writing. It's somewhere in the intention. And I can only feel it and then guess at it.

Perhaps they will pull it all together JM said they do--I'm sure I'll check it out eventually--I have to give Joss a chance to go the full round--no fair otherwise. For whatever resons, just can't take it right now.

I can't take having that in my head right now--it doesn't help me live life and a story should help--it's some kind of covanent...and I understand that it is Joss and it's ok; just let him be. I will miss him but now I understand for whatever reason he will never let an expresion of love heal someone. He always, always, for some reason needs to throw in the knife for a twist with or without rythem and poetry to balance the act closing. (ie see Checkov for how to get it done)

And...he's wrong, I do think love can happen and does.

As for the stats--I can check again, but I'm pretty sure the Fall topped over five million viewers and now it's down to a little over three million. Sure it's a little more that last season--but it appeared to me that many votes were lost over the course of the year. A steady dribble away.

Check out some Spuffy sites if your are curious. Contact The Bloody Awful Poet Society they helped sponsor the Spike Redemptionist ads that ran when 'Destiny' was on. Almost begging for continuation of 7 Spike. Should find some of the feedback I'm talking about just about anywhere. There are plenty of sites--just pick one. Or better still read a fanfic. ANY post Chosen fanfic and what thousands of people, of women feel compelled to write or rather...rewrite.

And you know what? I dislike the sound of my own voice as I 'discuss' it all. It always ends up sounding like terrible complaining. And I don't want to throw that into the mix right now. Who needs it? I'll save it for post post and let it be--part of what you said is right--not that there is nothing they they could have done that would have staisfied me--but certainly I don't understand how these writers think. And I may never be satisfied with anything short of a face to face discussion with one of them. So I gotta stop talking, it is pointless.

And most of you here seem to be enjoying this season and well...power to you. I think everybody should enjoy whats left and I'll shut down. (for now)

Ying/Yang Chi/Chat Tickle/Take Gotta love male and female energy together. Explore that puzzle and take on the cosmos. And again, I don't mean romance. I mean the mixy underall.

Sorry it went on so long, I'll be reading but this is my last post for a while and hey? Why just...fade away?

hee hee ho
isa I don't necessary agree with what you say but I would hate to see that this is your last post here for a while.

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