In all honesty, I have never been more disappointed in an "Angel" or "Buffy" episode. The Illyria/Wesley scenes and Dru's brief appearance were perfect, but even being the devoted Spike fan I am, they managed to make me temporarily dislike him. Two episodes left and this is what we get? Power Play better pull something absolutely fantastic.

Anyway, bitter rant over. Bureau42 and DarkWorlds also have their reviews up.

faith1984 | May 06, 20:10 CET

Did I mention I'm disgusted? I'm disgusted. Vu ja de.

I understood the intent of humor behind it and that this was never intended to be a 'Buffy' episode. That the focus was on the boys and how they can't keep spinning their wheels. They gotta get over Buffy and move on. Could that have been just pounded into our brains any more than it was? I've actually been saying this to years to any diehard B/A or B/S Shipper that'd listen and they never believe me. Of course Angel and Spike aren't gonna believe it. Obviously Buffy believes it even if no one else does. The character has moved on.

Perhaps we should move on too, and not watch the season finale of Angel. With such lackluster effort it's obvious those behind the camera have already moved on. I'd hate to be the last one to leave the party.

ZachsMind | May 06, 20:35 CET

Have either of you noticed how it seems like there's frequently a "filler" ep in Buffy and Angel seasons before the ending eps get under way? I mean, it just seems like it's happened before.

I like the episode, not as much as Herc obviously, but it did feel out of place. This would have been a better episode if we had about four more eps left.

And for me, the best parts were Illyria and Wes.

cubiclesatan | May 06, 20:40 CET

how could that of been the of end of the triangle? i feel like walking up to whedon and punching him (lol)

norman | May 06, 20:48 CET

Zachminds, I was wondering the same thing. Should we even bother with the finale if they've clearly given up? I'd like to remember Angel as "Damage", "You're Welcome", or "A Hole in the World", and if they're not going to delivery quality episodes, I don't want to look back and have the first thing that comes to mind be how pathetic the last eps were.

But that's really all BS from me. I'll watch until the end because I'm loyal to Joss, and at the very least I can spend another few hours admiring James. The shallowness always finds a way to slip in there.

ETA: I don't really think that Buffy had any filler episodes toward the end. The last three felt pretty solid to me.

[ edited by +Faith+ on 2004-05-06 18:51 ]

faith1984 | May 06, 20:49 CET

Wow, amazed at all the TGiQ hatin'! I thought it was a great epi. I laughed my butt off, and that's a nice feeling, especially since the knowledge that the end is near makes me sad.

It's funny, if there had been a Bangel-ish ending, Spuffies would be mad. If there had been a Spuffy-ish ending, Bangels would be mad. So they do the only thing that is realistic, and make it clear that her cookie dough isn't really waiting around for anyone(I never imagined she would), and the boys get the message to move on. Where's the bad?

And when it's a topic that basically HAS to be addressed, it's not really filler. Trust me, every shipper and even regular Buffy fan out there would have been upset if at the very end of the entire Whedonverse, Buffy wasn't addressed. She played a major part in Spike and Angel's lives, and it was something that had to be addressed. Yes, they have about 20 years of history together unrelated to her, but one of the major points of Spike and Angel's animosity was Buffy! How can that go unmentioned??

I thought it was brilliant, and like JM said in an interview, very Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.

but even being the devoted Spike fan I am, they managed to make me temporarily dislike him.

I don't see this at all. Is it because they seemed to regress him back to being Buffy's bitch? They did the same with Angel. I just don't see the dislike there. I thought it was hardcore funny. And touching at the same time, because Angel actually seemed to feel a bit for Spike when he was talking about not having a chance. And they came to a mutual agreement that she was "our girl," but at the same time realizing she'd never be with either one.

And I think the whole point was that Buffy's moved on, and the boys know they need to also. And they will, but just not right now. It's still too fresh a wound for them both. A few years is nothing for vamps who live centuries, so it will take them some time to get over her, but they will. And I think they'll have less animosity towards each other because of this experience. Because they really ARE like brothers, especially now.

Well, just my take. I hated Numero Cinco and people seemed to love that one. I'm not always on the majority side! :)

Rogue Slayer | May 06, 21:27 CET

You're not alone. I hated Numero Cinco as well, and also Life of the Party.

I'm a Spuffy but it doesn't bother me that it didn't end that way, so that didn't factor in. The Buffy issue had to be resolved eventually, yes, but I would have preferred it had been addressed earlier or not at all. In a movie would have been my first choice, but that isn't a confirmed option. They're getting down to the wire, I just would have liked the focus to be a little more...focused? I'm not explaining this well.

I can't pinpoint exactly what it was that made me lose some of my Spike admiration, although since then I've recovered and gone back to "Spike is a God". Perhaps it was just my dislike for Angel (the character) being transferred over to Spike for a bit, he got too much screentime last night.

faith1984 | May 06, 21:48 CET

Wow did I land in Aint It Cool? The negativity is dripping off the screen. Don't really understand why. It was one of those eps, like "Triangle" where, instead of taking things into tragedy and drama, what we would expect, they take it into levity. After Riley left Buffy instead of having her mope, they made it a funny episode directly after. And now with both Spike and Angel realizing she's moved on, they make it funny too, instead of both of them getting all angsty again.

This was everything I hoped for. It made all it's points, and was one of the most hilarious Whedoneverse eps I've ever seen.

And yeah, Numero Cinqo is this season's weakest ep for me too. Unbelievably dull filler. Yet many raved over that one.

EdDantes | May 06, 21:57 CET

I'm with Rogue Slayer and the countless other people in the other threads who absolutely loved this episode and thought it was extremely funny. I think the door was left open for some more "relationship" issues in a possible movie but for now, Buffy is living her life and not holding back and the "boys" should do the same. But the episode was more about their history and their relationship and how far they've come together and how they are again, showing mutual respect for each in their now souled bodies.

Every individual acts differently when they are out in the world and not with their family but you go home for a Thanksgiving meal and all the old childhood grudges and competing for attention usually works it way out somewhere. That is the story of Spike and Angel. They are like brothers and through time they have been the closest of friends but at the same time always competing with each other. This road they are now traveling is about getting over that aspect of their relationship and respecting each other and I think ME has done an excellent job of moving them along. Buffy is/was the last hurdle they needed to come to grips with in order to move on in their relationship and they both can admit they love her but know it's possible that neither of them will end up with her and they are now willing to accept that.

Firefly Flanatic | May 06, 22:04 CET

Yeah, I really liked it, too. I mean, if you want to complain about an episode that was placed at the wrong time in the season, I'd go for "Why We Fight". And for a kind of pointless episode, I'd go for "Time Bomb" - which many seemed to like, but I found very dull and off-key. "The Girl in Question" was great. I totally understood that irrational drive of theirs to just hold onto Buffy, even at the risk of causing that demon gang war. It does worry me that they only have two episodes left, but I have faith that they can pull something amazing off.

FearsomeBrowMop | May 06, 23:45 CET

I'll put in my plug yet again for how much I liked the episode, just to help counter the virulent hating of it. Loved the episode. Loved it.

phlebotinin | May 07, 03:44 CET

I too liked the episode, I thought it was hilarious!The chemistry between Angel and Spike is excellant. Oh yeah, IMhO, I do not think that it resolved the A/B/S triangle, what it did was allow them to realize that perhaps neitherone of them will be with her and that the competition has got to end and they need to move on.

magdelena | May 07, 07:17 CET

Magdelena - Isn't what you just described a resolution? (Though, honestly, they didn't appear to be movin' on very much at the end, at least not willingly.)

Invisible Green | May 07, 07:50 CET

I liked this episode as well even though it did get a bit cheesy at times. I can only hope the slo mo effects are over - cause they are getting a tad on the boring side - just once excelerate the speed to vamp speed and I think it would be just as funny. I have a couple things I would have changed - 1) wouldn't being a forever love mean he would actually her real eye color (not the first time this has happened) - I know it the writers dialouge but you'd think DB would go 'Hey aren't SMG's eyes green?' or perhaps James might point that out or weren't they really paying attention all those years.

Did anyone else want the following lines;

(Actual Dialouge)Angel : "Where's the head?"
(Dialouge Wanted)Spike : "You have to go the bathroom, now?"
(Dialouge Wanted)Angel : "No you idiot, I'm talking about the demon head."
(Actual Dialouge)Spike : "Thought you had it."

Or maybe it was just me. :D

Another thing just occurred to me but wasn't the scene in 'Destiny' about the fact that nothing belongs to them - but here we are and they are upset cause the immortal has violated their women as if they owned them.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-05-07 11:24 ]

RavenU | May 07, 11:43 CET