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May 12 2004

More On Possible Spike Spin-Off and NBC debunking. Moviehole hears from a new source about possible Spike TV movies. "Marsters is pretty keen to keep on being Spike. You canít blame, itís a cool character."

Let's hope if it goes ahead, Boreanaz gets a little homesick and at least comes back to guest from time to time.
I never really had any faith in the NBC rumors so that comes as no surprise. However, a Spike-centric project, be it a TV series, TV movie or series of TV movies would be a great replacement in an Angel-less world, in my opinion. Personally, I'd love to see a project centering around a Spike/Fred-Illyria/Xander combo. Imagine Xander trying hard not to fall for Illyria, given his history with demon girls.
One can only hope for more blondy-bear!
I think this is great news. Even though I ultimately want a big screen movie for Spike that Joss writes...a TV movie may be the way to go to placate the fans and test the waters for a new spinoff. If the movie sails...then so may a new show. But I think it needs to pick up where the finale leaves off to get the veiwers drawn in. True...avid Spike fans will watch no matter what...but a lot of the hard core Angel fans may be harder to attract. I myself am just happy at any opportunity to see my Blondie Bear again. Spike is a an awesome and fascinating character. He has ties to both shows and would be the best choice to tie the plots together.I would love to see other charcaters like Illyria, Gunn, Xander and even Connor and some of the new Slayers be included. Lets hope this happens. James is certainly all for it.
Anyone who thought for a nanosecond that NBC would pick up Angel? What are you smoking?

I've said it before I'll say it again: if you can sign on either Marsters or ASH, and then ANY five or six other supporting roles from the BuffyVerse/AngelVerse to pose as anything from high profile Spike foils in the plot to occasional recurring cameos, you'll have a recipe for potential advertising revenue. There is an audience for it. Gellar & Boreanaz don't have to make appearances. The franchise is in my not so humble opinion, solid enough to survive without them.

The reason I say Marsters and/or ASH is because to make this work you need a proven talent that not only has a following but also has the acting chops to carry off the tvmovie/pilot for a new series. I'm not saying Hannigan or Caulfield or Brendon haven't the chops, but they're not as much a certainty. Marsters & ASH are the safest gamble/investment from an advertising revenue perspective. The audience will be happy and the suits will be happy. Guaranteed.

Also, if they go with Marsters, you don't need Whedon. It'd be nice, but Joss can take a consultant or supervisory role. If they go with ASH, you definitely need Whedon at the helm and preferably writing every single syllable of dialogue, and RIPPER has to take place in England. Marsters has a lot more allowable variables, and unlike Dushku or Boreanaz, Marsters obviously is willing to entertain the possibility, so he's our best bet right now.

If you can sign Juliet Landau on the dotted line? Everything else becomes irrelevant. You won't need any other talents from Buffy or Angel. Landau and Marsters on screen together is a chemistry unparalleled. You could show them just dancing for a half hour, and people would tune in.
That is so true Zachsmind.
I'd happily watch a reality TV show like Big Brother with spike and Dru just going about their everyday business!
I think Spike would be a harder character to separate from the previous show at this point. (Compared to Giles/Ripper, whom you can take anywhere, as we don't have any SOLID comprehension of where he is right now, emotionally or physically)

I think, to make a Spike show or movie work narratively, you'd need an Angel based springboard of some sort beyond simply its series finale. The character of Spike clearly feels attached to the Angel gang and cause, and recognizes his mission there after Fred's demise, and even if it's possible to put him on his own path, I still think you'd need Angel as a starting point.

Now, if DB doesn't want to come back for a movie, this is obviously a problem. I can totally see it working if there was some kind of guest starring thing going on in the first eps of this supposed Spike show, but without Angel kicking it off I just don't see a seamless, convincing transition.

In the grander scheme of things it's perhaps a minor thing, but this isn't just about popping the character into an amulet and making him appear among old, familiar characters. This is a rather delicate matter, in my opinion, as the later Spike stuff on Angel was lots about him actually finding his place as a champion.
Right now, Spike is a vampire, so he can appear years into the future. In other words, they can do anything with the character--it doesn't necessarily have to be Angel/Buffy related (but certainly wouldn't complain). As I've said before, JM reading the phonebook? I'm there.
Actually, from a writer's standpoint, it'd be possible (for me anyway) to pick up where the Angel series is going to leave off, without even a cameo appearance from Boreanaz. However, I can't actually describe how I'd do it without risking spoiling others with what I know.

I would have to mention the character of Angel to do what I have in mind, but I wouldn't have to include him, and of course I wouldn't just pop Spike into another amulet. There's something far better than an amulet. Also, of course the story would continue to be about Spike as a champion. Again, we wouldn't need Angel for that. In fact, Angel's in the way of Spike's growth.
I know some will complain, but I can't think of anything that would kill a Spike movie/spin-off quicker than adding Connor or Xander. Spike met Connor once and he doesn't really like Xander, who would be comic relief at best. And unless they do something major with the character, I'm not sure Illyria would add much either.

I'd prefer the old standby, a Spike and Faith show. And then Giles, Andrew, Wesley, and Willow(sans Kennedy) can stop by from time to time.

But I'm not holding my breath for anything. At this point it's still just talk. I'm trying to accept the real possibility that in after one week, I'll never see my Spikey in anything original again.
Hmmm ZachsMind, why would Joss be expendable for a Spike movie but not for a Ripper one? I'd prefer him writing either one, though there are certainly others I'd trust with the task if Joss was busy. Get Drew Goddard & Steven DeKnight on the case, I'll be salivating.

The idea of a Spike TV movie fills me with giddyness. And yes, strong, successful males can say giddy.
I hope this happens. I agree with most of what has been written here. James seems eager to carry on playing Spike and unlike David, he has been acting for a long time, so knows that roles like Spike don't come along very often.

Also, as twiggy said, if JM read the phone book, I'd be there! ;-)
I agree that Spike & Connor would be lame, but there have been moments late in the Buffy series where Spike & Xander showed a chemistry that'd make them ideal for a fair weathered friends kinda partnership. They'd hate working together, but for a common good they'd set aside their differences. You could also do a tv movie that featured Xander and Spike, but they wouldn't be best buddies. I'd prefer them to become mortal enemies in a battle over something or someone. Without Buffy around to referee, it'd become a bigger feud than Riley & Angel, and the Zeppo can be much more resourceful and ruthless than Riley ever could if you corner him. For one thing: he'd never use a plastic stake.

This next opinion probably would not be popular, but I personally liked how Marti Noxon handled her part in Spike's progression during season six. While I wouldn't necessarily recommend Noxon since there's still some bad blood there among some fans of the franchise, I think it's possible to find someone else that could helm a Spike vehicle, so long as Whedon was a contributor on a distant supervisory level.

However, Giles is best when Whedon's grabbed the wheel. There's nuanes about Giles that I believe Whedon alone can bring out in order to make a solo vehicle work. Whereas Spike's more ready-made and all you need is someone familiar with Whedon's past work who loves the Spike character enough to want to get it right.

To put it another way: a lot of what makes Spike who he is, is in the shows. There's empty slots in his past that could use some fleshing out but for the most part what we see is what we get. Even I could write a decent plot synopsis for a Spike movie in my sleep, and I'm not a professional writer.

However, Ripper is going to be a story about a middle aged man facing his mortality, and facing a past that comes back to haunt him. We've seen glimpses of this in Buffy the series. However, only Whedon really understands the darkness that haunts Giles, and to make Ripper work properly, only Whedon has the keys to unlock that darkness. In anyone else's hands, it'd be just another tale to tell. Whedon's got the magic touch when it comes to Ripper.
I know I'm dreaming, but this would be my team for a Spike series (with Whedon's input): Jane Espenson, Stephen DeKnight and Greenwalt... I could see guest appearances from Buffy/Angel characters all through the spinoff. He could be James Bond Spike, traveling around the world. So many possibilities. I hope it happens.

[ edited by twiggy on 2004-05-12 17:17 ]
How do I get hold of the moderators?
If you're wondering why your thread was deleted for the second time today is because it was self linking (against the rules). If you want to take it up further, email me using the address in my profile.
ok, but just out of wondering is the only way to get hold of them to e-mail them
Frankly, Spike and Xander teamed up as guys who hate each other but have to work together reluctantly is a terrible idea. They already took that direction this year with Spike and Angel whose history together was far richer. To repeat that with Spike, only with Xander instead of Angel is going to feel like a weak retreading of that same basic theme. I'll pass.

And also, it depends on how Angel ends wether or not you can just jump into a different chapter in Spike's life. He has some attachments to Angel and his crew, but really, not that many. He's still there because he believes in the cause, but he can fight that on his own, like Angel used to do. And it's not like he and Gunn or Lorne or Wesley are such close friends. He was closest to Fred and she's gone.

As I said, it all depends on how this season ends. (And feel free to NOT tell me since I managed to stay spoiler free)

If Joss is even slightly involved I'm sure they'll find some new angle to give Spike a story in. They usually do. I'd love to see it happen. Throw in Faith, Giles, Willow (sans Kennedy need I say it) and Andrew.

OH, and insane Slayer Dana!
The best bet would be to email them and speaking of email.

A note from Chris Buchanan (President of Mutant Enemy) which I got a few minutes ago. Tis regarding those NBC rumours.

Hi Simon - I'm crazy busy, but I wanted to tell you
that this rumor is totally untrue. The Angel sets are
gone, the writers and producers have moved on to other
shows. I wish it were true, but it's not.

gawd, I hope this happens, but I aint banking on anything anymore.
I agree with Zachmind. as much as I love Xander, I just couldnt believe it I dont think. but then again who wouldve thought Angel and Spike would come to some sorta understanding? I like the idea of Spike and Xander being enemies, that makes more sense. And some people mentioned Faith? Faiths cool, but she doesnt make any sense. Her and Spike ended up hating eachother in season seven, I just dont see them riding around on a motorchycle together.

of course, Id love to see Andre there, cuz those two always crack me up.and I dont think Spike hates him as much as he hates Xander. And am I the only one that likes Harmony? Id love to see her fit into it somehow, if it was believable.

but anything Spike, Im there

PuppetCancer out
We seem to forget the whole Angel 2 trap here though. The whole "A vampire with a soul seeking redemption" story is pretty much told already, and while I get that you're all saying "they'd have to make it different!" the question is.. Uh, how?

Even if Spike worked in a flower shop and sang ballads he'd still be a vampire with a soul seeking redemption. I don't see that changing. Don't get me wrong, I love Spike and I'd love to see his story continue, but I'm in the Faith camp on this. As backdrop to Eliza's character it'd make for a really cool story of.. instead of having this character saving the other character from darkness, you'd have something more Illyria/Wes like, where one has to teach the other about things he barely believes in.

With Faith I'm absolutely sure it'd be a whole different show from Buffy, even though they're both slayers, and all that.

Of course it's all wishful thinking that Tru Calling, that dreadful show, doesn't come back next season.

[ edited by Mirkan on 2004-05-12 17:45 ]
Re: Simon's last comment featuring Buchanan's words: ...I hate being right all the time.
Well the fact remains that Spike is different now. He just died a hero in the end of BTVS...so it may be possible that Xander, Giles, Faith and the others may have a new opinion of him at this point. And I do think he has a connection to Gunn and definitely to Illyria. It's hard to say what they may do...but I think the possibilities are endless and I hope it happens. Joss will probably be involved to some degree, but David Fury and Steven DeKnight did a pretty good job with Spike. I guess it will depend on who is available when the time comes. I thought I read something awhile back about David Greenwalt being interested in a new series as well. I'm going to hope for the best. What can I say...more Spike can only be a GOOD thing.
The whole redemption thing is Angel's trip, not Spike's. Spike has much more readily accepted that what he did before regaining his soul was the work of a demon. While Spike wants to be a champion and do good things, he doesn't brood about his life as a demon.

Therefore, a TV show or TV movie with Spike as the lead character would not, indeed *should* not, be all about redemption. I leave it to the writers, however, to decide what it *should* be about, though. :-)
Mirkan Your saying that a Faith show would definitely be different from Buffy is the same as people saying that a Spike show would definitely be different from Angel. The thing is, that the fans of the show know it would be different, but to an outsider, either show would like like Buffy/Angel 2.

At the moment a Spike show is much more likely I'd guess, as I reckon Fox'll pick up Tru Calling to see how it performs in a Friendsless timeslot, (why didn't they give that timeslot to Wonderfalls!). Also, the WB obviously like Spike, as he was one of the things they demanded season 5 have.

A Spike show would be very different to Angel I feel it would be dark, but not as dark as Angel and would have an early Buffyesque lighthearted side to it, quite funny, while being dark. Spike isn't Angel, if he survives the coming apocalypse he'l leave Angel to fight evil on his own, he doesn't seek it out because he's not out for redemption, if he comes across evil, he'll fight it, if he comes across a chance to do good, he'll do it, if he comes across the oppurtunity to shanshu, he'll take it.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-05-12 20:15 ]
SUGGESTED SCRIPT FOR A COMMERCIAL

We hear a familiar voice attempting a deep resonating english accent as a fast montage of Famous Spike battles assaults the screen. All shots should be no more than a second or two each and be where Spike looks outrageously cool beating up on a number of enemies from his past. Along with the montage and narration is fast instrumental music that complements the visuals well, and feels very Spike-ish.

NARRATOR: (voice over) He's tried being the bad guy!

Dramatic beat of the narration. More fast montage of Famous Spike battles.

NARRATOR: He's tried being the good guy!

Dramatic beat of the narration. More fast montage of Famous Spike battles.

NARRATOR: Now?

Camera cuts to Andrew attempting an intimidating Yoda like pose that should be both impressive and laughable. Background is dark neutral. Lighting is stark and blue glowy, like the money shot at the end of Buffy Season Two "Anne" when she was holding the axe. Andrew should be lit like that. In fact the more you could get Andrew to look like Buffy in that money shot holding that axe the funnier this will be.

The music abruptly stops. Beat.

ANDREW: (to the camera) There is no try!
SPIKE: (off camera) Will you stop the bloody Boba Fett impersonation before I bite you?

Spike's upper body crosses into our view, intimidating pose over the now slightly retreating Andrew. The following lines are kinda said on top of one another.

ANDREW: (to Spike) Not Boba Fett! Yoda!
SPIKE: I'll bite you I swear I done it before ya little blighter!

SPX: a fast black wipe animation that looks like when Spike's wearing his black trenchcoat and does a spin.

Fast black. New logo. Stinger music effect.

SPIKE! the Series

ANDREW: (v.o.) I knew you were bluffing. You're a hero now!
SPIKE: (v.o.) Oh is that whut you think?

sound effect: fangbite

ANDREW: (v.o.) Ow!
brilliant, I'd watch that. Andrew is a must in this show I think.
LOL Zachsmind...that's too great! :)
ZachsMind, you should be a writer, SERIOUSLY. There are so many ideas you put down on "paper" (ok, internet) that are just TOO FUNNY!! What a great mind you've got there.
LOL - Love your premise for a Spike show Zachsmind. I had my doubts in the past about a possible Spike spinoff just because people may say it's the same as Angel's premise. But it wouldn't be because Angel is always seeking redemption and is insecure in what his role is and has had a lot of self doubt. When Lindsey/Doyle approached Spike we got to see what a possible Spike spin-off would've been like if the show had gone to Spike and not Angel. They were basically given the same tasks but Spikes take on it was so different than Angel's and it was delightful to see it. Where Angel is dark and broody, Spike is spontaneous and showy. Spike would be more like the counterpart to Buffy because Buffy always enjoyed her slaying and liked to quip about it and I could see Spike being that way too. I'm not saying a Spike spin-off would be copying Buffy, I'm just saying it may have some more of that early seasons fun feel that BtVS had.

As much as I'd love to see a bunch of characters join Spike I'd think they'd want to keep it to a minumum so it isn't accused of being a Buffy copy or an Angel copy. When AtS happened it started off with just Angel and Cordy and they were later joined by Wesley. I think at least one key character and one very much liked character (rules out Kennedy) should join Spike. I think Andrew is the most likely just because of the relationship he and Spike already have and they've established it even more during this season of Angel so I wonder if that's intentional if they already had spin-off ideas in mind. I would love to see Dana reintroduced too just because of her memories of Spike and what she did to him.

I'd also think an Illyria spin-off could be very interesting as she tries to find a place for herself in a human world. She could be haunted by Fred's memories as she becomes more compassionate with the human's around her and she could feel guilt for "killing" Fred, who had such a pure heart. She could become someone who fights for the helpless and in some cases has to revert to Fred's form to pull it off and Wesley would still be there because the part of him that loves Fred can never let go.

I was very gung-ho for a Faith spin-off when I first heard about it but they've moved on with Spike's story and I don't think it would make sense for him to now travel with her. Him being tied to her in a ghostly form is now gone so how would they explain him helping Faith, especially where it was obvious he hated her after what he felt she did to Buffy in season 7. And since they introduced Dana the Slayer, I find her story to be more intriguing than Faith and would love to see them do something with her.

Of course, I'm still hoping for Ripper and ASH certainly could pull off a show of his own. They could have Ethan as a semi-regular in that and for humor, throw in the Chinese slayer that Rupert had such a hard time communicating with.
I don't think Spike hated Faith, they were getting along quite well in "Dirty Girls", the commentary over that section of the episode goes on about how that was them seeing what the relationship between the two characters would be like in the spinoff. Spike fought Faith in "Touched" because he wasm pissed that they'd kicked Buffy out the house, and Faith would be the most logical conclusion for who'd kicked her out, Buffy tells him that Faith had nothing to do with it, it was more her friends than Faith. I still like the quote "you say the word and she's a note in history, I'll make it look like a painful accident".

What concerned me more was how they were going to attach Spike to Faith, or maybe in that case it would have been something of Faith's that would have caused him to save the world and become a ghost, rather than the amulet from Wolfram & Hart.

And the chinese slayer died, sorry blwessels.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-05-12 21:14 ]
I think the 2 actors that have most shown a desire to reprise their characters are James Marsters and Amy Acker. A Spike and Illyria series would be great. The other actors should get a chance to move on and maybe add some Buffyverse influences to other projects. The same can be said for the writing staff. They have graduated from Whedon college and now they can work their way up into power positions in the film industry and create shows we will want to see.
I'm pretty sure the Chinese slayer (Chao-Ahn) never died, at least not on screen. But there was an extra who looked kinda like her whom Caleb killed in "Dirty Girls."
She was one of the ones that died in Chosen, she got bit when Buffy was on the ground, same time as Amanda died.
Mirkan-Angel and Spike arent that much alike, IMO. Persoanlly I feel that Spike could give two craps about "redemption" and a possibility of one day being human. Like he said, he pretty much only wanted that perpetual cup of torment just to take it away from Angel.

SO IF, thats a big IF this happens, I think itd be extremely different. Angel is all about the bad things that come along with being a vampire(like the not getting laid)and all the negative. His journey has been much more inner, I guess U could say.
IMO, I dont think Spike gives much care about being human again. He's been there and done that. I think he likes the whole superpower thing and thinks of it as kinda being a rockstar; he cant get enough of it. So I think his journey would be much more of a helping the helpless kinda thing than seeking any kind of redemption. Hell, he didnt apologize to a man(Wood) for killing his mother, I seriously doubt he cares how he ends up cuz he lives for today. and IF this does happen, I hope Faith aint in it....they hate eachother. I say sign up Andrew and Harmony if its workable and then eventually just create new characters. new blood...that way we can talk about them having a spinoff when the suits decide to cancel "Spike" in five or six years.

PuppetCancer out
I'll have to rewatch "Chosen." :)
Faith and Spike hate each other?

I've thought a Spike/Andrew show would be a fantastic idea ever since their motorcycle trip and the discussion about the Bloomin' Onion.
I never thought Spike and Faith hated each other. I mean they got pissed off, and beat each other up in Touched, but that doesn't mean they hate each other. Spike and Buffy did that all the time to each other. I think there could definitely be potential for a spin-off with Spike and Faith, and maybe even Andrew. That'd be awesome!
I always thought Eliza and James had great on screen chemistry when ever they were in a scene together.
Okay - I take it back - maybe they don't hate each other but it was left with him wanting to kill her and her enjoying the chance to try and fight him and it was never resolved. That said, I did think they had great chemistry together. But I think there are other plot lines that could be more interesting than a Faith and Spike spin-off. I think there's room for both characters to have a spin-off of their own personally.
I'd write it with Spike, Andrew and DeadFred as the only regulars. DeadFred would start the season looking like their badguy, but by episode five I'd have her and the boys fighting on the same side against common foes. Would go into more detail but not much time at the moment. Harmony & Hamilton would also play key in my first season if I could get them, or failing that, Lindsey & Eve. However I wouldn't NEED any of the other characters at all. I'd take whatever I could get even for cameos, and could be very versatile in thowing them in, but I think that'd be all you REALLY need to do Spike season one.

Oh, and for the finale I'd want either Drusilla or Oz to make an appearance. Or both. Both would ---Ooh! Dru & Oz in a budding romantic relationship when they showed up! Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants! And Oz would think he's turning Dru good while Dru thought she was turning him evil.. And they're both beating the living crap out of Spike for their own reasons.. Oh that'd be great!

Anybody got Joss' number?
Slightly off topic, but after the mention of the Angel sets being gone, anyone know why the Buffy Sunnydale Main St set is still up? Surely they couldn't use it in a spin off, the town was destroyed after all. Or, as Hitchhikers Guide and Red Dwarf showed, it could return...
is the buffy main street set still up? i thought that had been struck off too...
Heh, little tiny demons rebuild Sunnydale!

I agree with ZachsMind it wouldn't need to start with a huge cast, the fic I wrote (and will continue one day) had Spike, Fred, Oz and Lorne, I put Gunn in as an enemy along with Dru and the First, got a bit overloaded with bad guys and put Gunn in a coma for a several episodes just to get rid of him. But the core cast of four was all I felt it needed, and I could understand how one with Spike, Fred/Illyria and Andrew could work, maybe Illyria decides to follow Spike after the apocolypse, and Giles assigns Andrew to keep an eye on the two of them, Andrew blows his cover in the first act and joins the two of them occasionally reporting to Giles. Drusilla is also a must in any Spike spinoff, she's a huge part of Spike's story, and she's still alive, they wouldn't have to resurrect her like they did with Darla on Angel.
I'm not quite comfortable with being placed in some un-fan camp. I'm very much a fan of both shows, and I do think I possess enough knowledge of the themes to be able to comment on it.

If you didn't mean to insult my fandom, then I'm sorry for taking it like that.

However, what you say makes total sense in the context of where Spike was in Buffy, but if you were to put some meaning behind Spike's words late in season 5 of Angel, he has indeed aknowledged Fighting The Good Fight as his calling, and at the end of Damage he also very much reflected on what he had done and that he should "pay" for it. In other words; redeem himself.

Now I also see how they could brush this off easily, but I can't but feel that it'd betray the direction the character was heading in a sense.

Faith's obstacles however are far, far from Buffy's. Her story is alot like Angel's in that she's learning to control the 'demon' within, but it's also about finding her way back to real connections and emotions. We've only seen a "sexually" attracted Faith on Buffy (let's not get too romantic over the Wood relationship) and I think that just exploring the emotional side of her would be fascinating.

I'll leave all that to the writers of course.

I want to underline that I'm in no way saying you don't already know all this, Ghost Spike. I'm simply thinking out loud.. on.. paper. Oh and it's all opinion, of course.
I completely agree on the Spike/Faith show, perhaps with some Wes thrown in. I love the chemistry between Spike and Faith, they both have fire and enough personality to spill over into their own show. Perhaps Andrew could come on as watcher type roll too. I dont know, but I am all for even the idea of all of this!

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