That was an excellent read. Seriously, stuff like this makes me feel like a freaking idiot, though. Where do people get all this? It amazes me!

And proof, yet again, that Joss and Co. are the most underrated and unappreciated producers of fabulous tv. We really are losing a treasure.

I'm going to have to rent The Wild Bunch now.

cubiclesatan | May 13, 22:45 CET

WOW. I totally missed the connection of all those circles. I wonder, is shadowcat taking/teaching one of those Buffy classes or does she/he just pay ALOT of attention to all those details I miss? Makes this episode WAY more significant than I even realized. Now I really have to find a copy for my friend to see. Those last 10 minutes are even more major than I realized when I was watching it.

Thanks for the post, Unitas!!

WilliamTheBloody | May 13, 22:49 CET

Very excellent analysis! Awesome read.

Invisible Green | May 13, 22:49 CET

Wonderful analysis!

cal | May 13, 23:02 CET

In the Buffy pilot, when the gang goes to the Bronze to stop the Harvest, Buffy warms Giles, Xander and Willow, "Don't go all Wild Bunch on me." Joss has been obsessed with that movie since college.

Kudos to shadowkat - her stuff is always worth reading.

wren | May 13, 23:04 CET

This means that season 5 is much more complex than I thought. Wow. I've never seen The Wild Bunch so I wouldn't have seen the connection.

electricspacegirl | May 13, 23:11 CET

I'm surprised we haven't yet had books for Angel like we have for Buffy with "Reading the Slayer" and "Fear and Trembling in Sunnydale".

Are there any?

cubiclesatan | May 13, 23:18 CET

cubiclesatan - I think they're currently putting one together.

Invisible Green | May 13, 23:37 CET

wren was just going to post about Joss' obsession with
this film. References are sprinkled through out the Buffyverse.
The name Angel,the vampire Gorche brothers,etc.

micro tech | May 13, 23:40 CET

Is it true that that Black Thorn symbol was on the cyborgs in "Lineage"? Because that would be great! Those damn robots have been bugging for months now.

Excellent article. "Firefly" and some film classes got me into westerns. I'll have to watch 'The Wild Bunch' next.

FearsomeBrowMop | May 13, 23:41 CET

Invisible Green - are you refering to the season guide or an actual critical reading piece? I know the second volume of the Angel Case Files is coming out soon....

cubiclesatan | May 13, 23:43 CET

I was thinking of this.

Invisible Green | May 14, 00:09 CET

FearsomeBrowMop & cubiclesatan - Definetly rent 'The Wild Bunch' if you get a chance. It's a not only a great movie but so influential on BTVS, Angel & (perhaps most overtly until last night) Firefly.

If you like 'The Wild Bunch', you might want to see some of Sam Peckinpah's other classic westerns such as 'Ride the High Country' & 'Pat Garrett & Billy The Kid', which is one of the most savagely beautiful films ever made as well as deeply moving eulogy for the death of 60's idealism.

Unitas | May 14, 00:10 CET

Thanks for the tips, Unitas. I know I was thinking of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - wait a sec, did they actually refer to that in the show last night as well? *ponders*

Back in the day, Redford and Newman were some real hotties, I'll say.

Invisible Green - awesome! Thanks for the link! Someone just emailed me at my LJ, too, with another suggestion.

cubiclesatan | May 14, 00:46 CET

Shadowkat rules, as always. Great read!

NirvanaPunk | May 14, 01:33 CET

Peckinpah's other great film is The Getaway with Steve McQueen & Ali McGraw. No Buffyverse references I can think of though.

vpecoraro | May 14, 01:40 CET

WOW. Thanks for this!

palehorse | May 14, 01:44 CET

Season 5 is so subtle. Layers within layers.

Simon | May 14, 02:16 CET

Stunning read - very insightful! Thanks for posting it!

magdelena | May 14, 07:19 CET

Kind of amusing, Simon, about the "layers" for Season 5 - since the WB was all "make the show more accessible damnit" to Joss. Nice to see how subversive ME was about it all.

JEEZ- can I NOT spell?

[ edited by cubiclesatan on 2004-05-14 15:29 ]

cubiclesatan | May 14, 08:02 CET

Simon and Cubiclesatan - you're right, it's highly amusing - not to mention ironic - that, when you look back on Season 5 in hindsight, nearly all of the apparently "stand-alone" episodes have some bearing or input into the overall plot arc (even, apparently, those robots). The way in which these layers seemed to innocuous at the time only further points to ME's subtlety.

alpen | May 14, 12:32 CET

Re: Layers.

I'm surprised no one pointed out all the references to them in "Underneath" -- the idea of the surface reality not being what it appears, both in terms of the "holding dimension" and Wolfram & Hart:

* Wesley's strange joke about falling through the earth, and his "dream" about Fred, saying, "This is only the first layer. Don't you wanna see how deep I go?"

* Eve, in answer to her purpose: "There are layers upon layers at Wolfram and Hart, Angel. Things you'll never understand."

* Most pointedly, Lindsey (and later Gunn) teaching the boy, Zach, about the layers of the Earth:
Lindsey: "Okay, from the top, the earth's outer layer is called?"
"The crust."
Lindsey: "And what's underneath that?"
"The mantle."
Lindsey: "And under that? C'mon, you know this one."
"The outer core?"
Lindsey: "And under that?"
"The inner core."
Lindsey: "And under that?"
"Under that .... nothing?"
Lindsey: "Nothing but the soft chewy center."

* And finally, when Lindsey tells him about the apocalypse around them, Angel comes to understand: "You're saying, everything we do, it's a distraction to keep us busy, from looking under the surface."

[ edited by SaveAngel on 2004-05-14 15:38 ]

Whedonage | May 14, 17:37 CET

SaveAngel, my wife had exactly the same reaction and was waiting for all the layer stuff...

Chris in Virginia | May 14, 20:18 CET