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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"Do you want to be punished?"
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May 20 2004

Herc: "Five stars. The Buffyverse goes black." THE discussion thread for the Angel finale. Was it good for you?

I would like to sum up my feelings with a picture.
You captured it, prufrock.
I suppose if you are going to go out, you might as well go out on the top of your game....which is my way of saying, Holy Crap! What a great episode. I am so glad I stayed unspoiled for this one. "Would you like me to lie to you now?" just destroyed me and Angel's last line about wanting to slay the dragon gave me one last smile. I am really going to miss this show, these characters and their adventures. It is amazing that in a world populated by vampires, demons, Gods, witches & slayers, there could be more truth & honesty in one hour of Angel than in a full season of so called reality TV. Ain't art funny?
Now I can only hope that Joss Whedon makes a speedy return to episodic television and does so on a network that is willing to give his show the care & love it will no doubt deserve.
I can also hope that Fox gets seasons 4 & 5 out pretty soon. I want to watch the entire show in a major marathon.
Next up Serenity and as for Angel, who knows? Farscape is coming back and we all know what happened with Star Trek. I hope there is a future but if there isn't, the show always will remain.
Thanks Mutant Enemy and thanks Angel. You all will be missed.

[ edited by NOLA64 on 2004-05-20 04:20 ]
I cried. I CRIED! I never cry! Fred/Illyria & Wes. I just have TOO much to say.
Awesome. There are no words to express it. I laughed, I cried (oh how I cried over Wes and Illyria), I screamed....

I curse the WB. There is absolutely nothing that can ever replace the buffiverse. Nothing.

That picture does say it all, prufrock
This world impacted my life.
These people, both living and dead, touched me.
There is no more.
Thanks, prufrock. Perfect.

I cried the last 30 minutes. I don't want to let this series go. But many, many, many thanks to Joss and ME. (No thanks at all to our "friends" at the WB.)
that ending totally rocked. and it made me mad that the wb had the nerve to put a little thank you montage at the end when they are they ones that cancelled it. they have no right to be mourning this night. that right is reserved for the fans.

i so loved this episode. it ended too soon but it was a fitting finale. ending with no real resolution but knowing the fight always continues. i was just so moved by all of this episode. from angel talking again about redemption to the return of anne. from wes dying in fred's arms. just everything was amazing. thank you joss.
What a send off. Joss Whedon always leaves us wanting more, and boy did he do that to us this time! Ah, there is just so much to comment on. I can't believe it is the end (for now) of the Buffyverse. Damn the WB and damn them for rubbing it in over and over that it was the "series finale" and the fake "thank you" at the end.

But enough about them, ME did a great job with this episode, they had me guessing the whole time what was going to happen. The WB wrecked the Lorne/Lindsey moment by showing some of it in the opening preview and I guessed what was going to happen just before it happened but it was still a stunner that was what Angel wanted him to do. Can't say it was a surprising decision on Angel's part and Lindsey's reaction to it not being Angel who did it was priceless. And Harmony, traiterous, yet still delightful, bitch!! At least Angel didn't seem to hold a grudge.

And my poor, beloved Wesley! Why Joss why did you kill my prince!!! That scene was wonderful with how Illyria really was grieving for him and wanted to comfort him. It was all the sadder because "Fred" said they could be together and we all know that Fred is gone forever, doesn't even have a soul left. Glad my new favorite Illyria made it through to live again in a possible spin-off/feature film/comic series?!!

But what an ending! My daughter gasped and exclaimed, "Damn you Joss!!!!" All in good fun because it was a brilliant way to end the show. Heres to slaying the dragon!
I just had to put in my two cents. This was so awesome. It definitely went out with a bang. I'm going to try to get some sleep but I doubt I will be able to. I still can't believe the WB said "Thank You from your friends at WB". Yeah, they're friends all right. Take off Angel and keep the rest of the junk; oh and put even worse junk in place of Angel. I thought I was depressed before but now it's really sinking in.
I started crying when they smashed that stupid Smallville ink bottle and haven't really stopped. Wondering if Wes allowed himself to think that part of Illyria's lie was that Fred really wasn't waiting for him... Getting more of the Connor & Angel healthy relationship .... Poor Lorne, so so used up and bitter ... how horrible for him.

If only there was another season to explore what happens when Angel swallows the power of the Wolf Ram & Hart.

I went back to read the spoilers & saw the article where Joss said he was going to share the pain he felt when the show was canceled. He wasn't kidding.
May the world of Whedon be not gone long,
May it return to TV with ratings strong,
For now I'll watch my DVD's and silently curse the WB.

[ edited by Tracy on 2004-05-20 04:41 ]
Great episode, but that WB thank you was pure evil.
it was weird that the scene where i got the most choked up was when Harmony was in bed with Hamilton. it was so perfect..it was when it hit me that i'll never see Harmony again, or any of the characters, or ever experience that kind of lovely Jossian surprise. i'm stunned. i loved this...loved.
2638 stars! what will become of my homepage whedonesque now tho?
Thank you Joss and company For creating T.V. that literally Changed my expectations of how television (or any other medium for that matter) could impact my emotions, my sense of humor, and well my life in general. I'm sorry to see this rollercoster end, but I'm glad I was here for the ride. Here's to the cast and crew of ANGEL (Raises bottle of Miller Lite) Thanks For 5 wonderful years and the hope of a spin-off in the near future. I wish you all success and most importantly A HUGE F*@K YOU TO THE WB!!!!!!!
I laughed, I cried, I screamed (and cursed), and I cried some more. This show, and the Whedonverse in general, has ruined me. But it ruined me in a good way. If that makes any kind of sense. Oh, and did I mention how much I loved this episode? A terrific finale. Now, if only Illyria could do what she did to Vail but replace it with Jordan Levin's head, I'd be completely satisfied.
I cannot express how much the glorious Buffyverse/Angelverse has meant to me. I never thought I'd ever, ever say that about two tv shows. What a glorious, eight-year narrative! Sheer brilliance. I can't believe it's over. Could it really be over? Really?

The WB thank you WAS pure evil. I'm sure Levin is a charter member of the Circle of the Black Thorn. Evil will never go away -- the suits will always be scheming behind the scenes -- but Whedon et al went out fighting the good fight, not fading away. Not at all. I thought the finale was superb. Just perfect. It was the Angel raison d'etre, distilled. Genius.
I wish last week's trailer hadn't spoiled Lorne's "one last job." *shakes fist at WB for screwing me one last time*

I was still holding out hope that Wesley might play a part in a movie or spinoff at some point in the future. I guess it's still conceivable, given the fickle nature of mortality in the Buffyverse, but the odds are not improving. Pardon me while I toss back a few in honor of everyone's favorite rogue demon hunter.
Absolutely fantastic! Like all of you I laughed, I cried, it was perfect...until the crappy WB Thank You, with friends like that...

Anyway - Kudos Joss & ME!

PS - I kew I'd feel bad for Wes and Loren but the surprise was I actually felt bad for Lindsey and Eve
Ok peoples ...... what im writing now means alot to me... today its 7:39pm wensday 19th....today angel ends...this writing is important to me because the whole world changes....ATS is ending today....the whole world for me enyways...i know its not going to be the same....i know im going to miss it...il think about it and mope around...today is just like last year when BTVS ended.....i think about it everyday i breathe...and now the same here...but now its officail...its all over...now i dont have a wensday to look forward too..now days will seem longer and years will get harder...and now il never look at my tv the same way i used too... i feel like the world feels the same way... today it was so sunny people went to the beach...a couple hours later the sky turns grey and it starts to rain..its raining right as i typ this...but i know that just arournd the mountains there is sun...and it will come wether it likes it or not...it will come.....
Let's go to work....
These last 8 years have been the best years of T.V. I want to thank Joss & Co. for the thrill ride that was the buffyverse. I don't know how I feel. It was just so great! I know that we havent seen the end of the buffyverse but I hope we don't have to wait to long to see the next chapter. As Angel said Joss, "Let's go to work."
I didnt cry, for the sake of my manliness, (a school chum was over) but how did I scream. And curse. And spit a little.

The ending! ENDING! That was no Ending! Jeez.
Just to let you know -- Joss just posted on the Bronze Beta -- and he said he is going to return after Angel airs on the west coast.
Life won’t be a whole lot different for me. I still have Buffy every weeknight on Space, Angel every weeknight, Buffy and Angel DVD's.. and the Angel 12 hour Marathon, including a viewers choice top 10 on Space this Monday.
Only Joss would have the raw creative talents and "brass testes" to create an episode and an "ending" like that. Everything was right on the money. From Spike finally getting the recognition he's always wanted for his poetry ("that was for Cecily"), to Lorne's pitch-perfect emptiness when he shot Lindsey. Absolutely brilliant.

I miss it already.
i laughed, i cried, i screamed, i cried somemore and i am sure i'm not done either. i don't know that i will be able to sleep tonight, either. i especially cried for wes/fred. and yay for slaying the dragon! i loved that--one last smile before the end. my world will no longer be the same. thank you joss & co for so many wonderful years of escape from reality and for making a group of characters not just that, but a group of familiar friends to spend time with every week. :'(

[ edited by buffyfanatic18 on 2004-05-20 05:27 ]
the finale was excellent...! there's too much to say, and the rest of you will say it better so i'll leave it at that... outside of joining those of you who cried for Wesley.

thank you to Joss and Company for Buffy and Angel, tv is not the same without those shows, without your contributions. there's just nothing else on that's worth my time, let alone my dedication, admiration, and money spent on dvds and dollies.

i hope the wb goes out of business, i'll be doing my part by never watching their programming again, and that levin gets a rash that never goes away.

prufrock would it be possible for me to post your buffyverse tombstone on my weblog...? with credit to you of course, and a link back to you if you have a website...?

[ edited by t r a c y on 2004-05-20 05:19 ]
I can't believe it's over. I haven't posted on here before, but I had to say something. I was crying with my mom when the episode ended and my dad looked at us and was like "it was just a TV show."

But, the thing is, it was so much more than that to a lot of people.

These characters, they meant something to fans, in a way that other characters on other shows never will and it's sad to see that end.

Thank you Joss for letting Angel go out with a bang. I will love this universe you created forever.
Awesome finale, completely in the spirit of the show. All of the unanswered questions are pretty harsh tho. I think I need to watch it again and see what else i can pick up.

I have to say some of my favorite scenes were those of Illyria's. The scene where she is standing in front of the demon's car and tilts her head to the side is priceless. Punching the head right off of the sorcerer wasn't far off either.

Will really miss this show...why did it have to seem to get better with each episode?
t r a c y: sure. I don't have a website though, so a link isn't necessary.
Appropriately dark and fitting ending for a show about endlessly striving for redemption. Yes, it was the anti-Chosen. No bright sunny sky, no smile, no happy ending. Just rain and blood and death and more to fight. I am once again floored by this show. Lots of things coming full circle. Mentions of Doyle and Cordy. A visit with Anne. Talk of Shanshu. The hotel. How everyone spends their 'last day'. The twists. Lindsay on the team. Harmony very in character. She's done it once, she'll do it again, but once again not staked. Lorne. Oh my god. Talk about going out on a high note. Gunn dusting vamps just like when we first met him. Connor, the sane, balanced and well-adjusted kid he should have been, memories and all. Wes and Illyria, Wes and Fred. Except this time not creepy or scary. Just sweet and sad. My only complaint is that the death felt meaningless. But I guess that was probably the point.

I did good, there was only crying *once* during the actual episode. Being accidentally spoiled about the death helped me be somewhat prepared. Then the "Thank you" from the WB. And I cried and screamed at the screen. Thank you for cancelling the show, you bastards.

It's the end of the Whedon era.
thanks prufrock :)

come to think of it, i should Thank All of You here for having been a great source of information, and for the higher level of discourse and behaviour which can't be found on other related forums.

[ edited by t r a c y on 2004-05-20 05:43 ]
WoW!!!

That episode could not have been more perfect. Solidifying what we have all known for 8 years...Joss Whedon is a genius. No tv show ever affected my life or caused me to obsess the way Buffy and then Angel did from the first episode. I am keeping all my fingers and toes crossed for a continuation! And curses to the WB, they ruined what was otherwise a perfect show with their false sense of support for Joss and Angel...your friends my a#@!
Now I'm going back to rewatch the finale.
Loved it. This episode was a fitting end to an inventive, gorgeous show that rewarded its viewers over and over again. Beyond another season, I couldn't have asked for more. I feel satisfied and grateful for the efforts of those responsible for creating and sustaining a world that I always looked forward to exploring with anticipation.

Thanks ME types, and fellow fans! Hanging out in this 'verse has been great fun.
Public letter to Joss. Somebody please make sure he gets this. We can't ever say thank you enough, but here I'm gonna try.

Thank you for the little bedtime story, Mr. Whedon. Five years. We never got tired. We never got bored. Pissed off occasionally. Frustrated. Disturbed. Creeped out. When Connor and Cordy had sex I darn near wanted to turn away in disgust. Then you showed Angel looking on with the rain of fire whispering in the distance. Sometimes life is cruel. Sometimes life is hard. Sometimes life doesn't make sense and yet it makes perfect sense at the same time. Art imitates life.

Angel was light. Dark. Surreal. Hard core. Everything one would want from a tv show and more. Thank you for over a hundred episodes. Thank you for a wealth of characters that invade our dreams. Thank you for some brilliant dialogue, some marvelous eye candy. Thank you for showing us Harmony punching out Lorne. Thank you for showing Lindsey playing guitar with his new hand. Thank you for the Sanshu prophecy, and thank you for both taking it seriously and treating it like a joke. Thank you for the cryptic pez between Wesley and Angel just before they never saw one another again.

Thank you for Doyle kissing Cordy before sacrificing himself. Thank you for Doyle doing the commercial. Thank you for Doyle almost becoming dinner for his ex's wedding reception. Thanks for Doyle believing in Angel when nobody else did. Thank you for ..for Doyle. Just thanks all around there. Great character who left way too soon.

Thank you for Wesley's tragic yet heroic growth arc. The betrayal. The sliced neck. The imprisoning hostages. The recovering Angel when all hope seemed lost. The dancing in season one, and the creepy moment when he's got books all over the floor and he's working out just what Ilyria is with an obsessive compulsive yet subtle demeanor.. Y'know what? Thanks for Wesley.

Thank you for meeting Fred in the cave. Thank you for every time Lorne got to sing. Thank you for the old ghost lady calling Cordy a bitch. Thank you for Gunn saying goodbye to his sister. Thank you for Lorne's severed head.

Thanks. Thanks for all the moments I remember and all the ones I remember after I go to sleep. Thanks to all the people you got together, and all the people they got together, to make Angel the series come together. Thanks for Buffy and Firefly too. Thanks for everything you'll do in the future, and all the stuff you tried to get to the public but didn't quite make it cuz network suits suck.

I know you're proud. You should be. I know you're a thousand emotions only some of which you have words to express. We are too. There are so few people who get to be and do what you are and have. And will. See the crazy thing is, some would say this is enough. Buffy, Angel, Firefly. You have accomplished more than most people do in a lifetime. Yet I know you ain't done. It ain't in ya. And when you do the next series or movie or comic or dvd or whatever you pull outta your ass, we'll be here to ride the coaster.

Bob Hope once said thanks for the memories. I say thank you for the dreams. Now I want you to lie to me. Tell me everything's gonna be alright. Tell me it's terribly simple. There will be a network out there that will let you continue to tell stories in what we affectionately call the BuffyVerse. Tell me you can do it without having to use Buffy or Angel. Tell me you can find other people to continue the fight against evil, where the good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are never easily distinguished, and champions sometimes always defeat the villians and save the day. Tell me there's still more apocalyspes..seez.. sesses.. si..? Acacalypsi?

No one ever dies, and they all live happily ever after. Lie to me ,liar. Tell me a story. Oh. Wait. You just did.

Thanks for Angel. Great run. I won't say I'm gonna miss it. I won't say goodbye. Champions are but a heartbeat away.
Are you all nuts?This sucked,I have no words,after several great eps,we get this ending?Lame.
Zachsmind - that brought tears to my eyes. It was beautiful and it expressed how I feel. It's been a tough night and I'm tearing up even more as I write this thinking of what you said. I'm going to miss it all. I was holding up pretty well until I read what you wrote and now the emotions are just flowing.
Copied from my blog:

"I would like to personaly thank Joss Whedon and The Cast and Crew of Angel for providing me with 110 episodes of enjoyment, and I hope you all do well in your future endevors. Now lets kill us some frogs."

And guys, that was the perfect ending. Except wes dieing. That was bad.
I honestly think that was the best ending Angel could have had.

I rehearsed my response over and over for the last several weeks since I read that damn spoiler about Wesley dying and Illyria taking Fred's form one last time. I was going to say "Joss crossed a line! How dare he! I never thought he would take one of MINE!"

But when I saw it I thought it was a perfect ending for my dear sweet Wesley. He gets to be with Fred. The last thing he saw before he died was the thing he loved most in the world. My dear, sweet Wesley. God how I cried. God how I'm crying now. The only thing I regret is that Wesley can't come back in an Angel movie or spinoff if there ever is one.

Oh how I wanted a Wesley/Illyria show.

MY FAVORITE LINE:
“Can you pick out the one word there you probably shouldn’t have said?”
-Angel To Hamilton

MOST SHOCKING PLOT TWIST:
Lorne killing Lindsay.

My take on the ending is that it isn't really a cliffhanger. It's just a bunch of creatures from hell stampeding toward the fang gang. It's nothing Angel and the crew can't handle.
What can I say other than f*cking brilliant! I liked the ending too. But damn! that was good.
I sat stunned when it ended but then thought it was so brilliant. They will continue to fight on and we can imagine them continuing to fight the good fight. There's been many times when they've been outnumbered yet lived to fight another day. Although Gunn was hurt, Spike, Angel and Illyria should have no trouble dispensing those thousand demons or so. Besides some have speculated some Slayers showing up to help and Connor is probably lurking around the corner ready to lend a hand. And maybe Cordy gets another favor from the Powers that Be, because they really do owe her. In other words, Joss left it so our imaginations can go wild! Thanks Joss!
Incredible. The Butch and Sundance ending, and everything else in this episode, embodies what the series is and always has been about. I laughed, I cried, I stared in awe at the amazing transformation of Lorne into dejected killer, Illyria's love, and Connor and Angel fighting side by side.

Amazing.
tony, inspite of all the great things people are saying here i adored that episode,

Your an idiot, go away if you didn't like it. Its not what people are interested in reading.


I thought this episode fit the theme of this show to a tee, it was just brillaint. Lorne's emptiness was bone chilling.
Wesley, noooooooooooo!!

I'm still extremely traumatized and shell shocked from the finale, but I will say it was perfection. And that "thank you" from The WB at the end was insulting.
Duke101 - Don't diss Tony just for having an opinion, even if it is not logical to most of us and not supported with reasoning.

Friarfunk - How does Butch and Sundance end?
Superb episode. I laughed and I cried (literally) sometimes at the same time. Still, Joss had said it it would not be like a cliffhanger. Still too damn close for a cliffhanger for me.

Thing is we know he wants to bring the Buffyverse back and at least some of these guys will be in there. (Spike almost assuredly) But if you don't know that, then the idea here is basically that they go down in a blaze of glory and die. Damn sad.

Brilliant stuff though. Spike reading his poetry to a bar of bikers and getting applause was one of the greatest moments in TV history. 'Effulgent'....sniff...

And poor Lindsey, I couldn't believe how much I felt for him as he realized he was dying the death of a sidenote. And Wesley! They killed Wesley. Poor guy. One of the richest characters on either show. Loved how Illyria couldn't help but grieve. (Amazed how much I liked her overall)

Poor Lorne, I think in the end hooking up with Angel's team was not the best thing that ever happened to him. He had a good life with his bar, and now he's a sad man who saw too much death and lost too many loved ones. Loved the touch with the Shanshu, Angel just signing it away. To hell with prophecies anyway. AH man I can't believe it's over. 8 years of Whedonverse. What on earth is there left on TV now that's more than a passing diversion??

And yeah Butch and Sundance....I said that too to my wife.....For those who don't know, Butch and Sundance are in a bar, completely surrounded by half a mexican regiment. The very last shot of the film is them storming out against the impossibly huge odds. Then the frame freezes as they're still running and we here about a 100 guns go off, suggesting they both die on the spot. Bruce Lee has a similar ending in a movie where he sees a small crowd of gunmen about to mow him down. He realizes his death and charges them with a high jump and a war cry. They freeze that frame with him and midair and we hear the gunshots there too. (Wonder which came first.)

Well I'd say Gunn was a goner, but Angel Spike and Illyria were still capable of kicking a lot of asses so who knows......Joss, bring it back. Somehow, some day. Please. A new spinoff, a tv movie, a feature movie, comic books, anything!

If there is never any new Buffyverse again, I have to assume everyone died fighting in that alley.....Sniff.
I am really, really, really gonna miss this show.
Invisible Green: At the end of Butch and Sundance, they are ambushed by their enemies. The final frame of the movie is a still shot of them stepping out from their cover into a hail of bullets, taking down all they can before they are overwhelmed.

[Edit: Whoops, beaten to it by EdDantes. What he said, much better than, I.]

[ edited by nemo on 2004-05-20 09:11 ]
What a way to go.
This is kind of a strange question, but does this mean that the Whedonesque spoiler tag no longer has any need to exist? Will we ever see the little red text with parentheses again?

[ edited by MindPieces on 2004-05-20 10:02 ]
Oh yes especially for major plot details about the Firefly movie.
Oh yeah, somehow I forgot about the Firefly movie for a moment. It's post-finale shock syndrome. I'm operating strictly in "fire bad, tree pretty" mode right now.
Mindpieces: I think most of us are in shock.

Duke101: And one other thing, I don't want to see posters calling other posters 'idiots' here.
I feel like the finale was very well-written, but filmed very quickly. The whole episode feels very rushed...much like the last episode of Buffy felt rushed to me. Maybe it's just my personal desire to prolong it, but I've always thought that the Buffy finale should have been two hours long, and now this thought seems to extend to Angel.

Also, having Anne appear was very, very nice...except that it took a little bit to remember her. I kind of wish that she had made some kind of reference to her previous names and such. When you think about it, Anne is on some levels a symbol of all that has passed, not only on Angel, but also on Buffy.

Nevertheless, I really loved this episode. It's very difficult to think that it was the last one.

EDIT: By the way, did anyone else see the little "thanks" segment from the WB at the end? I was pretty upset at it, to be honest. It seemed to reflect the "thanks Buffy" segment at the end of season 5...

[ edited by mchan on 2004-05-20 12:02 ]
I enjoyed just about every second of that. Well, apart from the bits with Eve. Go away, Eve.

I managed to get spoiled for everything during the finale chat at Flickr, but the way Lorne killed Lindsey still thrilled me no end. Echoes of Giles & Ben, there. Wonderful. And a chance for Lorne to return. The demon karoake bar spin off appeals to me greatly.

The thing that got me was the talk between Angel and Connor. 'I know you're my dad.' That's when the tears came. Looking back over 8 years of Buffy & Angel, that's where the heart was for me - family, friendship, loyalty, teamwork. Life.

Thanks, Joss.
Perfection. With each episode better than the last, I knew it was all building to something extraordinary. I was totally unspoiled and, with no clock in view, it was quite a ride. Lorne singing one last time and Angel wanting to spend the day with Connor made me smile and touched my heart. Spike reciting his poetry and wondering if he could deny Angel three times made me laugh. But Wesley... and Fred/Illyria telling him he'd be where she was and they'd be together... went something like "No,no,no,no,no,notWesley,NO,NO,NO!!!" I didn't know there were so many tears in me. The End was strangely uplifting as they went out fulfilling the mission statement, but the tears came again with the final "Grr Argh!".

Thank you Joss Whedon and Company for giving us more than we could ever hope for or even imagine.
For the first time in five years I stayed unspoiled and for what? For this? It's a freaking cliffhanger!After all the times when Joss talked how he don't like cliffhangers, he finished the
entire verse with one?!I still can't believe it. "Chosen" was
mediocre episode, but the last minutes saved it fot me. "Not fade away" is good episode, but the end ruined it for me totally.
Joss told before that ending with cliffhanger it's just a lazy writing.Well, in my opinion, he was absolutly right.I didn't thought that there could be ending worse than Xena's.I was wrong.
For Angel, it's been about the Shanshu for a long long time. In the series finale he willingly gives up on it and finds peace in knowing his son is out there, alive.

That's not a cliffhanger. That's poetic closure.
Hi all, just wanted to put my 25 cents in.
I thought the show was wonderfully written and executed beautifully.
Although, for a while after the show I felt a little disappointment - I needed more closure. I guess closure would have been a funeral and who wants that.

What we got, was what I think, I wanted deepdown all along to know that from inception, Angel has never frayed form its opening purpose - redemption.
Can anyone really atone for ones deeds? I think that they can only hope to do better next time. A real "Hero" is one
that is never satisfied with ones self or the world around them as long as good exists there will always be evil.

Thanks JW it was a great ride the best eight years of television ever. It has changed what we think television should be.
Even when I hated this show, I couldn't not watch it. And it, like many of us fans, went out "fighting the good fight" no matter how hopeless things seemed. I couldn't have been happier that the show ended with it's mission statement.

Wes: R.I.P.

And I'll miss you most of all, Lorne.
We met Angel fighting in an alley. He goes out the same way. Anyone who doesn't like the way this episode ended needs to re-examine what has been at the heart of this series. To go out fighting as a champion - not to fade away - that IS Angel's greatest hope. I do not wish to call anyone an idiot in this thread as I happen to agree with Simon. However, I have difficulty understanding how anyone can call themselves a fan of Whedonesque entertainment and not appreciate Joss Whedon's choice for a 'cliffhanger' Angel series ending.

Not what you expected was it? Kept you on the edge of your seat even as the screen went black? You think Houdini or Kenevil or Barnum could have ever orchestrated something more thrilling?

One more thing. Everyone is making the same assumption Angel and the other characters did, that all the badness of the world was rushing in to destroy them. How do we know this? Team Angel just successfully took down all the kings of the hill of evil. That means Angel is now king of that hill. For all we know, the evilness of the world was rushing towards them to kneel and kiss their butts. In fact some evils of the world would fight amongst others to be the ones to stand as Angel's equivalent of Hamilton or Eve. The Senior Partners would have final say whether or not Angel would actually be their new Circle of Thorns, but for that bright shining moment Angel and his people were the victors.

The ending is not as bleak as one might think.

Thanks again Joss.
I am an old sap, and I was practically bawling...hell, delete "practically"...everybody's pretty much covered all the ground...but I am utterly mystified how I can feel utterly numb, ecstatic, and wracked with pain and loss all at the same time...
This is sort of off-track, but does Connor still have any of his previous "strength" or is it gone?
I don't really have much to add praise wise. I am spoiler free and was shocked so many times in this episode. I got the cliffhanger feeling from the end but after reading other people's assessments of it I have to agree. The show has come full circle but has ended in such a way that a reunion of some sort is still possible.

I think my favourite part, just because it made me laugh was the following:

Angel: One of you will betray me.
Spike: [raises hand]
Angel: Wesley... [blah blah blah]
Spike: Aw... Can I deny you three times?

I did however, curse the WB for ending this show. I didn't watch it on the WB but on my local station and I didn't watch the final credits so I don't know if there was a thank you tacked on at the end but if there was I'm glad I didn't see it. *insert WB rant here* I will miss you Whedonverse! (on the TV)

Tracy: I think he must still have his strength. He got up after Hamilton threw him into the elevator and he was beating up on him pretty good as well.
Anyone who knows Spike's back story had to be moved. He read that bloody awful poem like it was Shakespeare and he got applause.

Spike embraced William.

I could be reading it wrong, but I felt the end was a metaphor for quality shows fighting against the network execs/Reality programming. Illyria stands for the fans who feel grief that their favorite show is cancelled. It looks like an impossible fight--but maybe one or two of them will make it through..
Tracy: As far as I can tell, Connor's still got all of his previous powers, and now, memories. Those memories have just been tempered with "happy" ones, allowing him to be a bit more stable. And a helluva lot more likable, if I can add that. ;-)
"I don't know about you, but I kinda want to slay the dragon."

Fantabulous as always. Thanks to JW and the whole cast and crew. You know it is a good ending when the "Created by Joss Whedon" takes me by surprise. *sigh* Now, if you will excuse me, I must polish my DVDs and action figures. ;)
My wife said that this was how the Matrix SHOULD have ended and that it was a 100% better way to finish up than that. I think that it was by far the best finale -- season or otherwise, that I have seen.

Angel really took out Lindsey hardcore -- after already having had his woman he had him assassinated after using him to achieve his goals. Nice.

We loved the line, "Can I deny you three times?"

This show has always had many moments where I just said SWEET over a smooth fighting move or moment, and tonight was no exception. Of course I loved seeing Gunn come through taking out fools left and right, but the best was after Angel fed on Hamilton and did the double "I AM THE MASTER" flip in front of him.

If we're keeping score, Illyria took out the most people, I would say, with not only her 3 (!) but also Wes's guy, Vail.
Whoa...I still can't believe that it's over. At no fault to the episode itself (which was incredible), I still haven't gotten the World Is Over feeling that I had months before the Buffy finale. I think it's due to the fact that we didn't come into this season expecting it to be the last that that night's episode still doesn't have me feeling all apocalyptic yet. Well, not any more apocalyptic than the usual Buffyverse finale, at least.

But, like I said, my own lack of acceptance is in no fault to the awesome finale. It had everything: Multiple (and simultaneous!) fights with crazy demons, emotional goodbyes, Lorne in a cool jacket, a cute baby, Spike rockin' the iambic pentameter, some satisfying closure for all of us Ross and Rachel 'shippers (she got off the plane!!!)...just amazing.

And as for that final moment, well Joss kept his promise not to end with a cliffhanger. Because, c'mon, we all know who's going to win that fight. In fact, they're probably celebrating their victory with some Donkey Kong on the Xbox as we speak.
That was just wonderful. I started sobbing from the moment Illyria turned into Fred and by the time the credits rolled I was a bawling mess.
THANK YOU JOSS. I will miss this more than anything. It wasn't just a television show and those characters were our family. They made us laugh & cry, they made us hope, they were real to us.
Goodbye. I will never forget any of this.

Long live Serenity!!!!
Bloody brilliant ending to a phenominal series. A friend of mine who's only been assimilated into the Buffyverse fold for almost a year, called me up screaming afterwards.

"What kind of ending is THAT?! Are they alive?? Are they dead?!! How could Joss end the series with a f**king cliffhanger??!!!!!"

*chuckle* Ah, grasshopper, little do you know. So much do you need to understand. ;-) Being a devout Buffyverse fan, I can proudly gloat I am thoroughly satisfied with how "Angel" went out with fists a'flyin'.

Why? Because "Angel" was about fighting the good fight. Your inner demons, as well as, those pesky horned ones out in our mundane world (cleverly disguised as WB Executives, by the by). It wasn't about Girl Power or the Scooby Gang or the bright light at the end of the tunnel. It was about BRASS TESTES, baby! To do what you have to do regardless of the odds. Whether it means giving up your Shanshu prophecy or putting yourself in the spotlight for possible, communal rejection.

For me, I'm a glass-is-half-full-of-blood kind of gal. In my mind...Angel and the gang beat the odds. It's what they do.
I also think that the end was not a cliffhanger but instead a very fitting end to one of the main themes of the series, heroes fight and they keep on fighting. I to noticed how Angel ended how it began, with Angel fighting evil in an alley with the main difference being that in the first episode Angel was fighting the good fight alone, at the end the fight was joined by comrades-in-arms....which to me speaks volumes about where the character began and where he ended. Great, great episode.
Oh and I also loved Spike's perfect day. William the Bloody indeed.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

There will be a hole in my world. I refuse to accept a world without a Jossverse show in it.

Thank you Joss and ME for giving us eight years of "must see" TV.
I have no doubt in my mind that the team will come out on top but I also liked Zachsmind's guess that all the demons could be running to follow Angel, who has destroyed Wolfram & Hart and is now the leader. That would be a typical Joss way of starting the next season if there was to be one. But also, even if that isn't the case, they've been seriously outnumbered before in the Whedonverse and have come out on top.

I loved the ending. It had me sitting there stunned and wanting more and to me that sums it all up. I'd rather be all excited and antsy wanting more then just sitting there saying "Well, that was nice". I loved how Buffy ended too. Both were unique but perfect for their own series. As an example, Friends series finale was just so predictable. Seinfield tried somethng different but it came across as dumb. Joss Whedon is a master who knows his characters and knows what's right for them.

I also loved that Angel just quickly signed away his chance at the Shanshu. He then later tells Connor that if he's okay that whatever happens to himself is okay. Connor is Angel's humanity and Angel is happy for that. Once the Shanshu was introduced the argument was that Angel was doing everything to attain the prize at the end and by his quick swipe of the pen, he totally showed us that it was never about the prize but always about the redemption.

Oh, and Connor definitely had his strength still. They established that before he got his memories back and also when he arrived to help Angel and punched Hamilton across the room just as Hamilton was about to stake Angel (very reminiscent to Angel showing up to help Buffy with Caleb).

And I agree, poor Lorne might have been better off if he had never met Angel. But what a way to end it for him. I will now always wonder though what Lorne saw when he "read" Eve when she sang. He did what Angel asked even though he didn't want to and when Lindsey offered to sing for him Lorne just shot him, as if he already knew what he'd see.

As far as I can see, only one person posting thought it was a bad ending and everyone else is stunned and amazed. Sorry for Tony who wasn't able to grasp the brilliance. Maybe give it some time and watch again and you'll see what we all saw. Glad to see that the overwhelming majority is pleased as punch over the brilliant ending of the Buffyverse (hopefully temporary ending).
Sitting here, hands in lap. Just sitting.

How can there be no more of this?

I'm so in denial.

Thank you Joss, from the tippy top to the soggy bottom of my heart.
Angel as a series earned it's place in the Whedon universe.

I was very disappointed in the WB for including their cheesy "thank you". We don't want their empty words. Shame on them and whoever decided to cancel Angel.
It could have gone into any direction, but they had to stake it.
Congrates to the staff, actors and crew for a wonderful show that provided me with laughs, tears, frustrations and memories.
The ending was fitting but there is still an ache for what it's left. We will all be craving a dose of Joss very soon....don't let us down.
Angel the Series was never about the outcome of the fight, and that's why the ending was just so emotionally satisfying for me. It was about being there, in the fight.

It's also why it felt so, so perfect for Angel to just sign away the shanshu, even if I hadn't even considered that before.

I guess I just wanted to put in my two cents and just say that I am really thankful that I've had a chance to love this story, these characters, for so many years now, and I'm thankful for an ending that, I think, was the perfect ending to the story.
I can't remember the last time i was so emotionally vested in a series. When I look back at both Buffy and Angel, both shows have made me feel the entire spectrum of emotions. I feel like a good friend is moving away.

I just want to say thank you ME and thank you JW.
Life is a cliffhanger. There is no happy ending. There is no ending. There are moments, good and bad. Then we are on to the next one.

Thanks JW.
What terrific comments, everyone, whether you like it or hated it!

I too loved the Butch and Sundance type ending. It's all about the fight, not the outcome. Going to have to watch it again to catch everything (like Angel scribbling that gawd awful signature and then telling Connor what nice handwriting he has...lots of hidden stuff I'm sure. Can't wait to read more analysis)...

Loved The Poem scene. Spike truly came full circle. Everyone went back to their roots/back home/back to what was important. Even Wesley, though he couldn't have Fred, he helped Illyria understand so I think that gave him some peace.

The "Thanks from The WB" at the end didn't bug me nearly as much as the "You're watching the Angel Series finale" everytime they went to commercial...No flippin Sh#t Sherlock! As if we didn't know...idiots.

A few folks said it felt rushed, I think I agree. I agree that Chosen and Not Fade Away both could have been 2 hour eps easily but at the same time this ep was about the "fight" and when have they ever had time to take a "breather" during an epic battle?

Still trying to work out the significance of Spike being the one to get "baby" detail.

poor Lorne...

[ edited by tkent on 2004-05-20 19:16 ]
I don't know what else to say but brilliant. I was crying from the second Illyria turned into Fred, I REALLY hope they eventually make an Angel big screen movie beacuse I wanna know what happens next.
"I could be reading it wrong, but I felt the end was a metaphor for quality shows fighting against the network execs/Reality programming." - twiggy

You're not at all wrong. It's not a subtle metanarration on the topic. Relisten especially to Angel's speech at the end of "Power Play," where he says that they're not the ones with the power, they are weak, but for one bright shining moment, they can make a difference [i.e., produce some really f*cking good television].
Great Ending! I'm all choked up!

Spike:Well wishes just happen to horses today.
Oh my god, great nod to Firefly! Thanks Joss!
A big THANK YOU to Joss, Mutant Enemy, and to the writers, cast, and crew of "Angel" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." The past eight years have been wonderful and I am sad to see the 'verse come to an end.

[ edited by buffelina on 2010-01-14 16:36 ]
Hasn't Wes had a rough couple of months? He thinks he shot his father, finally gets together with the girl he's loved who then dies the next week, gets his memories back about betraying Angel and then dies. Ouch. Tragedy.

You've got to feel bad for Lorne, too, who takes on his role as assassin contrary to his wishes and personality, in order to work for Angel.

The big picture of ATS is that a person (or vampire with a soul) can try to work towards redemption, even someone who has done as many bad things as Angel (and Spike), yet Angel is sure that Lindsay has done all he can in the good fight. Lindsay joins up with Team Angel, since their interests are aligned, but long-term, he can't work for what's good? Does Lorne demure from reading Lindsay in order to avoid finding out that Lindsay is on the path towards working for good? Or is Lindsey totally corrupted by his self-centered worldview?

On the other hand, we leave Angel, Spike, Gunn and Illyria preparing to do more violence, right where these characters want to be.

Angel and the Shanshu prohpecy: this goes back to the first and second seasons-- the only way that Angel can put his all into the good fight and working towards his redemption and not doing good in order to accumulate enough points to get the "ral boy" prize at the end. In order to focus on working to make the world a better place, Angel has given up expecting to get his reward at the end of the day, which is why he won't hesitate to just sign away all rights in perpetuity to shanshu (in LA.) Hamilton wonders why Angel is willing to fight the good fight without the reward at the end of the tunnel, and doesn't understand that for the champion, the good fight itself s what matters. The journey to do good (and do enough to atone for guilt) never ends, because the other guys, those working for evil aren't giving up, either. That's why this ending works for the show-- this is just a little glimpse into the fight to do good, one that Angel and Spike can never give up as long as they're soulful undead.

Aside from the first few episodes (and the awful submarine ep), Angel's ultimate season was very high-quality storytelling, and the show went out at the top of its game. (yes, a season 6 might have been even better) . It's better to burn out than fade away.
That was just, brilliant, an outstanding 43 minutes of television, that while serving as a good ending to the show, and summing up the "Fight the good fight" message of the show, would have lead into an excellent 6th season next year.

Where to begin, the writing, great as ever, they still managed to get a few funny moments in there "Hello, I'm Spike, and luckily for you, I'm on a strict diet". Angel's signing away his chance at becoming human was Joss silencing the fans that reckon the show was the story of Angel's journey towards humanity, perhaps it was, perhaps only someone truly deserving would be willing to give it up, I still hope it's Spike though, and with him most likely being the most likely candidate for a spin-off, maybe it is. The score was great too, would have liked it if they could have fit the "Angel Hero Theme" in one last time.

I wish I hadn't been spoiled, it would have improved the experience, but it's not going to stop me watching it time and time again, I'll watch it again tonight probably.

The Wesley thing was still shocking in the quickness and cold bloodedness of it, the demon stabbing him and turning the knife, Wesley putting all his energy into that one last spell, and his final goodbye to Illyria/Fred, proof that the last few months of his life had not been in vain, he had succeeded in starting Illyria on the path to becoming more human. The moment where Illyria became Fred, though I knew it was coming had tears in my eyes, almost as much as Buffy's goodbye to Spike last May, but for that I was unspoiled.

Gunn spent his last day doing good, helping the underprivelaged, doing what Gunn does, the character never really stuck on me.

As I thought, Lorne's killing of Lindsey was under Angel's instruction. Shame that he had to be killed, when for once Lindsey was in the fight, he wasn't thinking of betraying Angel, and trusted him not to do the same, but he would have turned on Angel eventually, and Angel knew that. Harmony was there as proof that a soul is what makes the difference, and Harmony really didn't understand that "You don't have a soul""I would if you trusted me" Mercedes said her name was added to the opening credits because Joss intended to put her in them next year, where were they going to take Harmony from this, I though this was the end of her time with the group.

I think Eve died, she had nothing to live for, she gave up immortality for the man she loved, and Angel had him killed, I think she probably waited in the room for death. It was nice that the character became more than the badly recast Lilah she started off as though. And nice that she understood that what Angel was doing was the right thing, I think Eve at the beginning of the season would have tried to kill Angel for having Lindsey killed.

Spike combined his two selves in his final days, he got drunk and read poetry, the whole way through that poem I was waiting for the word "efulgent" and sure enough there it was, at first I thought it was a poem about his death with the beam of sunlight and his heart swelling, but it was his poem about Cecily, which is kind of odd, I don't know if it was part of his moving on thing (or a few huindred years backwards) but I would have preferred him to have renamed it "Buffy". This year Spike has continued on his development this season, who would have thought at the beginning of the season that he would face almost certain death by Angel's side, what Jasmine said to Gunn and Wesley last year has relevence to them "You to have the same love, it should bring you together, not force you apart".

And Angel, this episode destroyed any claims that Spike took over the show this year, this was Angel's series, he was in charge, he doesn't need to have the most screen time, this is his show, and this episode showed it. His killing of Sebassis was amazingly sneaky. His fight with Hamilton was great, his son helped him, and in the end it was his being a vampire that allowed him to win. His writing a recommendation letter for Harmony was a nice touch, he didn't blame her for what she'd done, it's what she is, it's what he expected of her. I liked their conversation about humanity too, Angel's looking out at the sun after signing away the shanshu was his resignation to the fact it would probably be the last time he'd ever be able to do so.

And the end, I know it's not a problem with the episode but man did the guy capping the episode cut the file off quick, think I got one frame of the executive producer credit before the video stopped.

Thank you Joss, now get working on that spinoff!
LOVED the episode. I was unspoiled for the first time in a looong time and am so glad I was. Wesley, my love...*sniff*. That scene with Fred, aka Illyria, and Wes...heartbreaking. The scene with Conner and his dad...long time coming...I LOVED it.

Just a few comments on others:

Zachsmind - I have always thought you were a wonderful writer. The public letter to Joss you posted earlier...absolutely moving and absolutely fantastically written. You rock yourself!

Blwessels - It has been a pleasure reading your posts as well. Very informative and full of emotion. I know I've said this before...maybe many times...but...I watch with my little girl who is 11. We have shared this "world" together as our something special that mommy and her have. Okay...she may have been young watching it back in 97...but believe it or not she did. I feel it is not only an ending of the Buffyverse, but I am also mourning that which we held as ours...just the two of us. I know you feel the same with your daughters.

EdDantes - We may have disagreed on the "shipper" thing. But I will admit this to you...I LOVED this ending. I am so glad that it indeed did end open...no relationships...no fulfillment of prophecy...just full circle. You said it earlier...but I didn't want to believe that it could end anyway but with Angel and Buffy...but...are you listening EdDantes????...you were right. Okay...there I said it...(It was a little hard...but I put it out there! lol)

Caroline - I am sooo sorry about last night at Flickr. If I am the one that spoiled you...you have my sincere apologies. I was just so excited to talk about the episode...that I rushed right in. Please don't have me sent to a hell dimension as punishment. ;)

EVERYONE - Thanks to you for all the comments and thanks to the Mods at Whedonesque. I have enjoyed this site so very much. I'm addicted to it actually. Is there some kind of intervention for this kind of addiction??? lol...it can't be that healthy!!! LOL

NOW:

TKent - Maybe Angel put Spike on "Baby Duty" because he was the only one who was responsible for another human. Everyone else went alone only to kill...Spike had to rescue a baby and keep him safe. Spike would be the best for that job I would think. Just my thought.

AND THIS THOUGHT:

I know alot of people did not like Conner and actually feel that the new and improved Conner that we just witnessed was...in a word or two...pretty cool. WHAT IF...Conner was involved in a spin off??? I think there is alot that could be done with his character now that he has "seen the light of what his REAL FATHER was all about". He has his powers...and who knows what he has that hasn't come to light yet...hmmm???....special powers??? LOL I dunno just a thought. Angel dies in that alley...Spike is alone fighting the good fight and who shows up to help Spike....Angel's son, Conner. I'm liking the idea even more as I type it!!!

Well...okay...I think this is definitely the longest post I have ever typed here and I hope I have not bored you to death.

Thank you Joss & ME!!!
Ah, one thing I did'nt like about the finale, the fact that there's a minimum of a 5 hour time difference between here and the US, I fell asleep at 01:30 GMT, and I so wanted to be in the Flickr chat. Ah well, hope those that did make it had a good time, helping each other through the grief.
To think I was so worried that I would be all upset and there I was secounds, secounds after the ending laughing my head off. LAUGHING. I am absolutely not kidding. Tony, I am with you babe--this was so awful I was laughing outloud. O.K. now I gotta tell you why. Five words.

The ends justify the means? What???? THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS? I've followed Angel's trek for eight years and now in the last minute all his effort to do the right thing for the sake of itself and the hoped for the ripple effect in the best tradition of Tolstoy and NOW when it matters most there is a switch and a sucker punch and sure ME acknowledges that Angel's methods may be unseemingly but than counters it, negates it, appluads it even under cover of the thrum of battle drum and fife?

Bell uses the hopeless but courgous bang of a St Crispens Day like scenario to emotionally blind everyone to what he is really proposing is this: THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!

Sure he has fallen down before; letting Darla and Dru have their way with a lawyer buffet and then trying to burn them alive--but there was an element of malice in that action that played into the overall storyline of seeking redemption--which means somtimes falling back. Brilliant. But this.

What is this? Wartime propaganda? He measures all this with the cold detatchment of a tyrant without council. I don't count the 'democratic vote' in 21. because they were being asked to commit themselves on marginal information. In hindsight--it was more like group pressure, using the charismatic power of entitled top dog in wartime. And I'm supposed to feel sympathy for the poor guy who has to sign away his shanshu? What? Of course he looses his shanshu (actually that was good writing) but I'm sitting at home by that point going YEAH! You should loose your Shansu. You simply lost the right to it by such a complete lack of faith in the power of single small gestures of love and kindness.

Now the show proposes that power has some merit with the appearance of 'Ann'--she standing in for those value's--but then again negates it by Gunn's sincere conviction that what she is doing may be well and good BUT totally ineffectual. She smiles wisely and we get the message to press on regaurdless; which is great but instead of staying with her and doing something real Gunn goes to battle. To battle, the emotional rouse! Rouse! All warriors for for what? Their energies would have been put to so much better use doing something positive than hooking up with a guy who killed a holy man and who had demonstrated that he is working with no 'vision'--just whittling away at an impassble cesspool by being poision yourself. Being a murderer is what Angel knows--and in crisis he falls back on an old method he knows vs using what he has been working toward for eight years. Man wouldn't have been great to see them all sit down and make oragami with children or something--now that would have been a contribution. A finale. (O.k. I'm joking a little but you get it) Instead it goes with the arguement of fighting evil with evil.

This ep puts an ideal forward that resonates in the heart and then takes it back again by trying to get us to secretly applaud Angel for his 'bronzies' or 'brassies' however Lindsey referred to him. He wins Lindsey over by the sheer charisma of his knockers down below. Top dog says. Sorry folks that what this is saying. Which you may all be behind but it just makes me laugh becasue now I want to kill Angel. HE's the guy you gotta stop.

And after hearing about how Angel dispatched Drogan the pure soul, the holy sentinal, Spike quite rightly, instinctively goes for Angel's throat. But this whole season from chopping his hands off (ask any criminalogist about the symbolism of THAT) to making him more and more of a buffoon,and by now he has been whipped by P/A and his righteous blows miss the mark by a mile and Angel shuts him down with the ease of dispatching a child.

So what are they saying? Righteousness, true righteousness has no effect, no power in the world and the only recourse is to FIGHT EVIL WITH EVIL???

Anyone who has lived past the age of thirty knows, KNOWS there is cause and effect relationship with the things you do. Small kindness can bring great harvests and meanness and anger always brings more. And we are supposed to applaud Angel for his brassies for killing a pure holy man? Does anybody have any idea how hard it is to progress spiritualy on this plane? It is so easy to fall down, but to progress to being pure, well...read about Siddartha, J.Krinshnamurti or Paramahansa Yogananda so few of them vs all the serial murderers in the world history (of which Angel admits he, there, is top dog as well.) Does anybody realize that one holy man of the caliber of Drogan probably energeticly balanced all those demons they killed? (that is in the real world) And that in the end Angel barely might have netted a profit? O.K. forget it was Drogan, say anyone, anyone, a drunk on the street--to sacrifice anyone's life without their willing is to rape the life away. A terrible crime againest creation. And all this would be excellant fodder for discussion but it is clear to me after reading all these entries the effect has only been to back the boy up for: THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

So Spike mewling submission to top dog goes along with the plan, the others do too. ONLY Lorne knows, KNOWS this is wrong but ME has him go along too and fess up isn't there is little part of you cheering Lorne on for sucker punching Lindsey? Sure there is--cuz I felt the tug too. Like oh look the Lackey has turned and see how effectual he is NOW(how ballsy)--world beware of Lackeys under orders!

My heart should have been breaking for Lorne. That he had to go so far againest his nature. Now Lorne leaves, and by so doing makes the surface gesture to appease our sense of order and justice--the script seems to say: 'see?' We recognize that what Angel is doing is wrong but then it flips it with Wesleys death and it doesn't matter--cuz let's us run pell mell back to kill for Wesley--Illeryia says this. To justify the fallen with more destruction. Some kind of glory--sure I felt the pull too. 'We band of buggered...' And such an appeal to the emotions validates Angels actions instead of calling them properaly into question.

And because they never ever discuss personal motivation.
I have no idea why they went along, all of them letting go of what they stood for--they should have ALL jumped on Angel after he reveals Drogan is killed--but bent so easily away when Hamilton comes in and that entrance in itself is used as a story telling device, Hamiltons presence at that significant moment suggests--'oh here's why you killed Drogan--well...that's all right then.' The ends justify the means.

The show dangled partial truths to hook the emotional button but never followed through on a discussion.

There is a terrible truth that Gunn drops, that I admit is true. The world is futile and there are evil people in power with intentions we can not even conceive of and yes this world will never change because it is designed for this purpose. And all this is true--from a certain point of view. He hits our buttons these secret truths to get us to agree with Angels tactits to what? Agree with Chenney? Rumsfield? But this is what I'm trying to say. These truths get hit to inflame our secret feelings but not our reason. Our minds. The whole truth is never on the table.

It is this:

That this planet plays a larger role in the structure of the universe and part of that job is to transmute pain and suffering into forgivness. It feeds the cosmic machine somehow the bigger picture. So yes it is true there will alwasy be pain and suffering but in order to transmute them into food, gas bubbles farts, whatever for the cosmic bang--we need to do our job by being righteous in peace and in war--there is a samuri way to do that. This world was designed for suffering but not without reason or recourse. Think I'm talking sci fi? Look inside yourself to see if what I'm saying is true.

We know, we really, really know what being righteous entails. How do do it. And Angel had been doing it--I was loving it. It was a show I saw myself in. This switch reminds of the switch at the end of Chosen. The slap to Spike. Build something up and then deliberately go the other way. But why? Why?

And so at the end of Angel I was like, what? Laughing because now this was a win, win situation. The world was going to be better off whatever happened. Evil fighting evil. Get rid of those guys that killed the holy man. Is this the reaction ME wanted me to have? I think I was supposed to feel this was noble or something but what I know is this--one becomes tainted by every, every wrong action--it is dragged with you tagged on and...the ends will never justify the means and Lorne is now my hero.
Thanks Coll for your kind words. I am in mourning. I'll miss the wonderful connection Joss Whedon's shows have given me with my daughters. We have become closer being able to discuss all this together. Not just me and my girls but my husband too. It's been like going to a great college with so many wonderful lessons to learn and I feel like I've passed in the top of my class and now it's time to move on.

I also liked what you had to say to EdDantes. I was just coming on to comment that no one had even mentioned that Buffy wasn't a factor at all and it was a brilliant episode. I was thinking how a few short weeks ago everyone was debating on why she should or shouldn't be there. Joss knew best, she shouldn't have been there and it was still a great episode (sorry BforBeth - just couldn't get far into your rant because I just don't feel it).

Coll, if I recall correctly you were the one who said after Angel ended you wouldn't be posting anymore. I hope that isn't true. Go out and get the Firefly dvd set (or rent it). Give it a chance because some people took a couple of episodes to get into it and stick around so we can all speculate on the upcoming movie. Joss isn't going anywhere and that brilliant mind of his is always spinning. I'm sure he's already working on something and I loved your Connor spin-off idea. This Connor is wonderful and he'd be a great subject in a spin-off whether he's the star or a sidekick. Throw in Dawn too and let us finally see if her being a key had anything more going for it. Joss has so many wonderful characters to work with he could come up with a dozen spin-offs (please resurrect Wesley!!) and I was so blown away by Firefly I'd be really excited at the prospect of an original series to. Keep the faith - Joss will be back.
As I've tried to be as spoiler-free as possible, does anyone know what changes were made to the finale when Joss learned of the show's cancellation? Does anyone know if Wesley was supposed to die even before the infamous Friday the 13th?
Blwessels...yes...I didn't think I would be posting any longer. I think I've ranted and said once that I was done posting at another point too...but like I said in my last post...I'm addicted to this site...I'm a stay at home mom...so I'm checking it constantly!!! So...I'm sure I will still be posting. As for trying out Firefly...I don't know what the premise is. I'm not sure if I would like it. I actually was drawn to the vampire mystique of Buffy & Angel. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to make a run to Blockbuster and check it out. Who knows...
Am I mistaken or did Angel trick the Black Thorn by not signing his name correctly - could it be he saw the legal loophole he could get through for the prophesy if need be. It just struct me compared to the deal he signed with WH where you can read his name legitablly, then he seem to scribble on the prophesy. More over telling Connor he hand nice handwritting. I know 'what about the blood thing' - the question I then put forward is - do vampires really have their own blood or is it borrowed - if that's the case Angel can never sign anything that is written in his own blood - and since all the witnesses are dead can they prove he indeed signed away his rights to the prophesy or was he indeed playing them. That question would have made next season extremely interesting, or perhaps I'm looking to deep.
So uh...BForBeth...take it you didn't like the finale huh?
The signed contract only works if the witnesses which were present would be able to attest to the authenticity of the signature. Since they're all dead, the idea of making the SanShu prophecy irrelevant? It's irrelevant. That's okay. The SanShu prophecy has been irrelevant for awhile. I buy the interpretation that Connor is Angel achieving human form. That the prophecy has already been fulfilled.

...Oh! And to those who complimented my open letter, thank you for the kind words. They're appreciated. =)

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2004-05-21 03:24 ]
I also loved the open letter ZachsMind, but was very surprised to see it come from you after your "jump the shark" comments a mere two episodes ago. I'm glad that Joss & Crew won you back over in the end, and here's hoping you thank Joss for Spike & Angel's Wacky Roman Adventure someday too. ;)
You know, BForBeth brings up a good point. Killing Drogyn was really bad on Angel's part. There will no doubt be AMAZING consequences, if the Buffyverse rules are applied. Like, for example, Angel being imprisoned like Billy was, for example, which could explain the future absence of Angel (David Boreanaz) from future shows. Killing an innocent, and not only an innocent, but one who protects innocents.

I would say, however, that none of the fang gang members' hands are clean. Spike, if you will remember killed a score, even with a soul, during the last season of Buffy -- although he was coerced, that is still substantial blood on his hands. Gunn was complicit in the death of Fred, as was, of course Illyria. And, all of them have much to answer for in working for Wolfram & Hart for the entire year.

I would say that yes, the ends justify the means is a tough and disturbing message, but one that is chosen from time to time, by some more than others, to be sure. I like the overall view that the key is to keep fighting against evil, but I can understand disagreeing with it. Perhaps, BForBeth, you might not have accepted the offer to join Wolfram & Hart, and THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE CORRECT DECISION!

It is also a more Buffyesque (jeez, another 'esque word) decision. During this season, we found that those associated with Buffy had denied Angel and his methods completely, so to be disgusted is no only understandable, it is included and acknowledged within the show. I am thankful for a show that can generate such true feeling, but also find a place for both extremes within itself.

BForBeth, you go right on feeling how you do -- there have been many in the past who thought Buffy was out of line, or Anya, or Spike, or Connor and should be punished, so for you to feel similarly about Angel is perfect, in my opinion. Just don't forget that that doesn't mean that you hate, necessarily, how the show ended -- Angel, for you, has just turned to the dark side.
Thanks Brother Grady, that was good--I really appreciate that and yeah mindpieces I (chuckle ahem) may have had a few 'thoughts' on the finale.

But Brother Grady hit on something and I had a bit of a revelation last night and it was only right to bring it to the table...it is this simple.

I realized if this was the season finale I would have been saying things like: OHMYGOSH. Gimme gimme season six and soon. The complex arguement of 'do the ends justify the means' would now be an invitation to debate instead of closure and that's a different dynamic.

Maybe Joss liked the ending for the season so much he didn't want to change it and the story is so alive in his mind he didn't feel it as a conclusion. Perhaps. I hope so.

But as the 'season finale' it turned the questions into conclusions by default and it threw me down a bit. Throws me still--especially when I read posts where folks wanna nuke the Arab world just like Angel had Lindsey killed, because self protection is more important than what MIGHT be true; that's how much we have been made to fear--in short no more smoking gun, and a premptive strike seems to be becoming an accepted way to problem solve. I need not mention the terrible consequences of anticpating someones actions. It doesn't respect free will choice. Not to mention that you could be wrong.

And storytelling is a powerful way to facilliate and empower these ideas in the collective unconsciouness.

Like it or not tv storytelling is a powerful medium. From Beowulf to Angel we look to stories to expand and expound ideas. It's not just 'entertainment,' never can be by it's own nature and our electric response to it. Consider how hot these forums can sometimes get and there is the telling evidence that it is indeed powerful and...Small sidetrack on tv storytelling:

HBO is doing a special on Ike. For the sake of balance in our country, I'm hoping they tell the story of how Nixon went to Ike when he was president and made the proposal to Bomb the hell out of the Soviet Union--to take them down completely before they could gain post war strength. Ike in his amazing wisdom and foresight argued that the best thing the U.S.A could do would be to set an example. Although it would take more time--how we live our lives here in this country is so inspiring to other people we would win them over from the inside out. The change would come from within the Soviet Union as it would in other countries and therefore be permanant and long lasting and they could have the national pride of having done it themselves. Just the way the U.S.A was created, by ourselves. Being self made is a powerful energy tool. Brilliant.

An example of faith that seems so far away from us now. Almost as if from another world. So yeah, I know the world is hard and by futile by design, but dear god how I love it when it when the dream comes true. When we win one through pure intentions.

I'm totally like Cordy--I never would have walked into Wolfram & Hart. But I wouldn't have stopped the others from doing it. I wouldn't have STOPPED them. That's the key.

Joss's current Angel stops people to the point of murder.

In the end I may not agree with Joss (if those are his conclusions) but I will respect his choice to draw them.
I make no apologies for my opinion of "The Girl In Question." I consider the Roman Holiday of Spike & Angel to be an 'imaginary story' like the old Silver Age Superman comic books that went a bit over the top. Although I accept some of the basic facts of the Roman episode to be acceptable, like Buffy being in Rome and having a relationship with 'The Immortal,' or Andrew learning to grow up a little bit, but I prefer not to assume "The Girl In Question" to wholly be a part of the WhedonVerse continuity. Predominantly because it left Angel and Spike as a couple stupid dorks.

It's apocryphal. I thank Whedon for a delightful little romp of an imaginary story, but if it indicated the direction the WB wanted the series to go, where the characters of Spike and Angel were diminished to acting like a couple lovesick college doofuses, it's best we never see an Angel six. Mutant Enemy got out while the getting was still good.
BforBeth -- for me the ultimate message that was affirmed by the last episode was that the most important thing was to fight against evil no matter what. To fight that way no matter what the means was Angel's decision, but not necessarily the path that they all chose. I also simply KNOW that this isn't the end of the story. Period, paragraph.

The story of Angel, the team and the rest of the Buffyverse is not over, and I don't just mean because of us or fanfic. The Buffyverse will be back on television in the future -- I don't know that it will be near though -- and it will be of outstanding quality. Most likely it will be more in the middle of how Angel ended and how Buffy ended, which should make it more palatable for you, I think.
What a profound loss. I cried when Wes died, but I cried when Angel wanted to kill a dragon, because I will never see that. I cried because life is unfair and the things that make up for that don't last. Angel made life seem fair. If I can't defeat evil in my daily life, I can be a member of the "team" and support the defeat of evil on TV.

There is so much to say about the loss, but I am ever so grateful for the time we all had.
bloodflowers NO FAIR!!! You got a "grr arrgh"?!? My WB not only didn't show the "Grr Argh" ME part, but they "small screened" the closing credits while running previews for other shows.
Stupid WB can't even give full credits for the FINAL EP!!!
Just rewatched the finale on tape (along with a friend from California, on the phone, who was seeing it in real-time for the first time) and yes, was destroyed all over again. I can't really add to what's been said by so many before me. I loved it. It was a perfectly Angel ending that sparked my imagination even as tears rendered the credits after Joss's name a blur. It left me feeling as though I walked down a dark hallway with a thousand possible doors to go through once the credits rolled.

So many moments. Wes dying -- with Fryllria weaving wreathes of tender lies around him as he faded -- crushed me, but Lorne's resignation and quiet leave-taking was sadness epitomized. Angel signing away the Shanshu dream, then grasping onto a more concrete hope with Connor in the coffee shop on his last day. Gunn making his 10 minutes worthwhile. Spike slamming poems, offering to be Angel's Judas just for fun, and his 'boo' in the alley. They all went out fighting. Kicking against the pricks (though their cause isn't exactly lost) til the end.

God, Joss. Thank you, thank you, for all you've created, and everything that's to come. I'm going to miss you so badly on the small screen. Please come back soon, and shatter my heart again.

(You left so many doors ajar in Not Fade Away that I know Angel, Spike, Illyria and, yes, Gunn, must have found a way out of that alley somehow...)

In my post-Angel survival kit, a few words from the Dead:

Walk into splintered sunlight
Inch your way through dead dreams
to another land
Maybe you're tired and broken
Your tongue is twisted
with words half spoken
and thoughts unclear
What do you want me to do,
to do for you to see you through?

A box of rain will ease the pain,
and love will see you through...


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