"By arguing the side he didn't agree with, Mr. Whedon was able to be ruthless about keeping his dramatic structures intact and also go for laughs — two areas where self-important religious programs like 'Touched by an Angel' often failed."

Yeah, because Caleb was such a strong Christian figure.

Invisible Green | May 31, 03:53 CET

Of course Caleb was a very very strong Christian figure.

Gio | May 31, 06:24 CET

Um...missing the point?

Caleb was not at all Christian. Where on earth do both of you get *that*? The collar? That's a tad superficial.

Caleb served evil. Make that, Evil.

And that's your perception/conception of Christianity?

Really?

Chris inVirginia | May 31, 07:01 CET

Wasn't he a Christian preacher?

Invisible Green | May 31, 07:05 CET

He wasn't meant to be a real preacher. He was just using the imagery to make himself the most sanctimonious bastard possible. I think Joss's reply to the question of whether Caleb was a real preacher was something like,"He wasn't very good at it, was he?"

lalaa | May 31, 07:11 CET

From the episode "Dirty Girls"

Caleb pours wine into a glass directly from a barrel.
CALEB
"Drink of this, for it is my blood." (drinks) You know, I always loved the story of the Last Supper. (looks at his glass, turns, paces) The body and blood of Christ becoming rich, red wine. I recall, as a boy, though, I couldn't help but think: what would happen if you were at the Last Supper, and you ordered the white? A nice oaky Chardonnay or White Zin... I mean, would he make that out of his lymph or some-all? (shrugs) Never did bring it up. Suppose there was a reason why I never spent too long in one parish. Just looking for answers. Just looking for the Lord in the wrong damn places. (gestures to someone in the room with him) Then you showed me the light.
BUFFY/FIRST (O.S.)
Do you think I'm God? (walks out from the shadows toward Caleb)
CALEB
I certainly do not. I am beyond concepts like that.
BUFFY/FIRST
But you still wear the outfit.
CALEB
Man can't turn his back on what he come from. Besides, black is slimming. (looks at his outfit) Everyone knows that.

I think that at one time he was a Christian Preacher but turned his back on his faith and became what we saw him to be.

Karen | May 31, 07:16 CET

Okay, that quote makes the ex-preacher theory seem most logical.

Invisible Green | May 31, 07:40 CET

Unsurprisingly, this Washington Times piece is unabashedly conservatively biased. Dismissing spirituality and trying to impose his own views on Buffy doesn't do anybody any favors. The reason Christian imagery and themes are used so extensively is because the Bible is an integral part of the cultural landscape, just like Greek mythology and Arthurian legend. And of course it's made even stronger by the fact that so much of vampire legend is linked with Christian imagery.

KernelM | May 31, 07:59 CET

Hey gang, this is reallly off topic but I just noticed this and wanted to share...

Has anyone else noticed how STAGNANT the rest of the internet sites have become? Most of the Buffy and Angel sites are barely even worth checking out now, yet Whedonesque remains vibrant and alive with our many topics and discussions. I can't imagine this site befalling the same fate. We all talk about so many different things! And the people here are just the bomb.

I know this may sound cornball, but I'm just so glad that we still have this place to come and find out new things, all kinds of new things, and discuss both the old and the new.

Let's hear it for diversity (diversification? diver-oh, whatever)! And the PTB that make this site possible... you GO Whedonesque-ers!

Willowy | May 31, 08:04 CET

I wouldn't know about the other sites, Willowy, I don't visit them. So for me, Whedonesque has become THE definitive source on the web for all things Whedon. I have loved this site from the moment I found it and I visit it religiously (in fact, it is the only thing I do religiously). Three cheers for Whedonesque!

Karen | May 31, 08:16 CET

Hmm, that article is definitely a case of someone trying to shoehorn something they like to fit with their own worldview. "Of course Joss is really religious, because I am and it's so great and so is he, so there you go". Wishful - and woolly - thinking.

Whedon has done a lot of good for atheists everywhere by announcing his feelings on the matter, especially in a country where the last but one president is on record as saying he doesn't think atheists can be considered patriots or even citizens. Like JMS and Douglas Adams (a couple of my other favourite atheist genre-writers), Whedon demonstrates by example that art with moral sensibility need not spring from the pages of a religious tract.

giles (yes, it is my real name) | May 31, 08:53 CET

Yeah Karen I agree!

I was talking about SpoilerSlayer, CityofAngel, Slayage, and even, yes, dare I say it, AICN. Even the Big Bad Board and Boils and Blinding Torment are now - meh.

Whedonesque is our oasis in the desert, and I for one plan to drink of it daily! (hourly?)

Willowy | May 31, 08:55 CET

Giles, how insightful of you. I agree completely. I like to say that I'm an Evolutionist, simply because I've been told that the definition of Atheist is that they believe in nothing, and I don't subscribe to that.

I totally believe in the evolutionary process,and that the Earth is a living organism, but no "higher being" thing going on here. Everything I believe is such an amalgam. Like some of Buddhism, some of Native American folklore, some of Wicca, its all a mishmash, but it makes sense to me.

For the record, I was raised going to church, and I've read the bible, and it was just when they stopped being able to answer my questions, (or dismissed me with the ever popular "oh you just have to BELIEVE") that I realized I had to come up with my own answers. Mostly by reading and self-education. Whatever, I guess. It works for me.

Willowy | May 31, 09:07 CET

deleted because I'm not my hubby....

[ edited by EdDantes on 2004-05-31 07:51 ]

EdDantes | May 31, 09:24 CET

"Of course Caleb was a very very strong Christian figure."

This looks like it was a great joke and it's too bad most people missed it. Very strong Christian figure? Priest who's good at punching people? I wish I'd come up with it myself.

friarfunk | May 31, 09:32 CET

Willowy: Strictly speaking, Atheism is a lack of belief in a god (or gods), just like asymmetry is a lack of symmetry rather than a different kind of symmetry (and bald isn't a hair colour:-). That said, there are different flavours of atheism, some of which can even work with Gaia-type concepts and buddhist ones, too . It's mildly off topic, so I'll merely direct you to the FAQ at
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~spc/library/atheism-faq.html
which goes into the subject at length.

giles (yes, it is my real name) | May 31, 09:50 CET

Caleb served evil. Make that, Evil.

And that's your perception/conception of Christianity?


Um, yes. Or rather, organized religion. ;)

For the record, I was raised going to church, and I've read the bible, and it was just when they stopped being able to answer my questions, (or dismissed me with the ever popular "oh you just have to BELIEVE") that I realized I had to come up with my own answers. Mostly by reading and self-education. Whatever, I guess. It works for me.

Wow, could we be separated at birth, Willowy? We almost always agree! And your story sounds just like mine. After a while the whole 'have faith' bit gets old when nothing makes sense and doesn't feel right inside. I like to pick the positive things from other ideologies and create my own way that feels 'right'. And I'd categorize(though I hate categorizing) myself as an agnostic. I think there is some 'thing', whether it's fate or god or some massive communal energy or a combo of all those things. Don't have it hammered out-probably never will, but that's not necessary. I just know what I don't believe. And once you stop believing something, it's really hard to go back.

Rogue Slayer | May 31, 09:52 CET

Wasn't the Red and White Wine line the reason the christian(I refuse to call them family) groups got so pissed at buffy in it's final year while angel was almost going directly after religion at the same time yet no-one said a peep about it? And for the record I'm agnostic too, so I so see where your coming from Rouge Slayer.

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2004-05-31 09:01 ]

400lb_Gorilla | May 31, 10:11 CET

It would have been interesting to have seen Riley confront Caleb.

Simon | May 31, 10:52 CET

art with moral sensibility need not spring from the pages of a religious tract

Thank you, Giles. I've been saying this for years (not merely about Joss's work), and it's nice to see others saying it. I've also had similar experiences with what Willowy and Rogue Slayer describe.

And regarding the fact that Whedonesque is still active when other sites have lost their energy -- I just want to add my thanks to the mods and the other participants for making this such a thought-provoking site, with civil exchanges of ideas. It is my first stop when I get online (which is sometimes a bad thing, as I get so involved in the links and comments it is terribly difficult to get back to work).

palehorse | May 31, 14:48 CET

When I saw how many comments were in this thread and what the topic of discussion was I thought for sure it was going to be another fight. Instead it has been an intelligent, thought-provoking, and informative discussion between adults and has made me proud to be a member of Whedonesque. Thanks everybody.

prufrock | May 31, 15:35 CET

I'm sorry, did someone just use "Riley" and "interesting" in the same sentence?

Sorry to ruin the intelligent discussion, prufrock : )

radosh | May 31, 17:46 CET

And that's your perception/conception of Christianity?


"Um, yes. Or rather, organized religion. ;)"

So, Rogue Slayer, really? That's a pretty big brush you're wielding, no?

radosh, I think it would be fascinating to see Riley engage Caleb in a theological discussion, while trying to tear one another's head off!

Chris in Virginia | May 31, 18:01 CET

Don't worry, radosh. I crack jokes all the time. And it would have been interesting to see Riley and Caleb face off. I bet Riley would have lost both eyes.

prufrock | May 31, 18:02 CET

Well seeing as Riley was just about the only Christian in the show, it would have been 'interesting' to see what a church goer would have thought of the perversion that was Caleb. But seeing as Joss never wanted the show to be 'Riley of Arcadia' it was never meant to be.

Simon | May 31, 18:04 CET

Thanks for that Giles!

And Rogue Slayer, I think maybe we were! You so get what I mean. And prufrock, you hit it just right.

This is what I was talking about earlier. This community just rocks!

Willowy | May 31, 18:05 CET

So, Rogue Slayer, really? That's a pretty big brush you're wielding, no?


Well, I put a little winky in there, so not really evil. Though I do think that organized religion is one of the bigger bads in this world. Just look at what it's doing to our world currently. I think spirituality is great, but organized religion....can't say I've ever seen much good come of it.

Rogue Slayer | May 31, 22:38 CET

Yep Rogue Slayer, once again we agree. More horrors have been visited on humankind using the guise of religion than all our wars combined.

Willowy | May 31, 23:26 CET

It's a common statement for us non-theists to blame religion for all the horrors visited by people claiming to practice it, whether Crusaders, Islamic extremists, etc.

To my mind, however, the fault lies not in our religions, but in ourselves. Good people drawn to religion, will almost always wind up being even better as a result of their sense of committment. Messed up people -- if I may use a clinical term -- will often wind up being even more messed up. If they happen to be violent sociopaths who can find or create others of similar mindset, then the results can be beyond "messed up." This is just as true of politics as religion. How else do you explain the difference between, say, the theory and practice of communism?

Religion, politics and every other belief system are, I think, magnifying rorschachs, people get out of it mostly what they bring to it. Sort of like the way that Jonathan Last can read traditional religiosity into "Buffy" while to me it seems the most radically and unapologetically socially liberal show to ever air.

True, there is an interest in spirituality and religion that continues on with the character of Shephard Book in "Firefly", but it's an outsider's respect for others belief. Whedon is not really a militant atheist of the Madilyn Murray-Ohare or even Penn Gillette school, but I believe him when he says he is one.

I say that, though, as someone who is nontheistic but suspicious of what you might call militant aethiesm. I basically understand any religious or anti-religious position except certainty.

But what I'm really saying is that we mostly read our own prejudices into whatever texts we come across.

I'm a little surprised that Jonathan Last didn't decide that Howard Rosenberg -- a terrific TV writer out here in L.A. who was honest enough never to hide his biases -- wasn't a crypto-conservative.

[ edited by bobster on 2004-05-31 22:46 ]

bobster | June 01, 00:38 CET

This from the article:

"Which brings up an interesting question: How did a man so distant from religion create such a deeply religious show? The suspicion is that Mr. Whedon was playing devil's advocate with himself and taking positions counter to his own beliefs in order to keep his writing sharp and free of sentiment.
By arguing the side he didn't agree with, Mr. Whedon was able to be ruthless about keeping his dramatic structures intact and also go for laughs — two areas where self-important religious programs like "Touched by an Angel" often failed."

Does this not seem to mean that Last believes *not* that Joss is a crypto-Christian (or whatever) but rather that by injecting so much religious sensibility into the show he was able to create what he did? Not in spite of himself, but because of himself?

Chris inVirginia | June 01, 02:22 CET

One of the writing exercises many college professors have their students do is to write from a POV or methodology that is very different from what the students have found comfortable for earlier papers. The idea is that, once they leave the comfort zone of a certain "automatic" way of thinking, they pay more attention to the technical aspects of writing and argumentation, because the POV is so foreign to them. In Joss's case, this would be the "dramatic structure" and the "laughs."

This is what I thought this author meant in the passage Lizard quoted. The focus is on the form, not the content -- but that focus on the form is made possible by a kind of "disinterest" in the content.

ETA: I should explain that by "content," I mean the religious content the author presumes -- which I don't agree is there. I was just trying to come to grips with what he was trying to say in the passage quoted above.

[ edited by palehorse on 2004-06-01 02:27 ]

palehorse | June 01, 02:51 CET

I see what you mean, Lizard, and you're probably right in your interpretation. But earlier in the article, '"Buffy" was always based in a Christian, and nearly Catholic, universe. And while the show's creators always kept God offscreen, He was ever present.' shows what the author thinks that POV was, and I couldn't disagree more.

Perhaps I missed the bit about HellGods, the pre-human demon-haunted world, The Powers That Be, and non-evil demonkind and witchcraft in the Bible somewhere. A couple of instances of common vampire lore (holy symbols, and holy water) do not in themselves create a christian buffyverse. How often were they even used? And don't get me started on the theological implications of redemption through works alone.

I don't think the author gives enough credit to the possibility that religion does not have a lock on the big subjects. I also don't consider it a "deeply religious show", just a deep one. There can be a difference.

giles (yes, it is my real name) | June 01, 04:06 CET

I don't think the author gives enough credit to the possibility that religion does not have a lock on the big subjects. I also don't consider it a "deeply religious show", just a deep one. There can be a difference.

I completely agree, giles. As a fourth-generation atheist I found this show *very* refreshing. I knew very early on that the creator was an atheist long before I ever sought out more information on Joss. I always find it funny that the show is described as "religious" because it focuses on "the big subjects" as you put it. Not believing in god(s) does not preclude these issues from a person's daily life.

marmoset | June 01, 04:43 CET

Good points. Now that I read that one paragraph again, I see that he's not really arguing that Joss is a believer in atheist garb but like most of you, that earlier stuff about a Catholic buffyverse seems way off.

Actually, it seems to me that the Buffyverse is essentially a mix of paganism and Judeo-Christianity, like most fantasy, I suppose.

[ edited by bobster on 2004-06-01 06:40 ]

bobster | June 01, 08:38 CET

To my mind, however, the fault lies not in our religions, but in ourselves. Good people drawn to religion, will almost always wind up being even better as a result of their sense of committment. Messed up people -- if I may use a clinical term -- will often wind up being even more messed up.

Good point, Bobster, I agree mostly. I think there are actually very few of the 'good' people in any religion that can truly represent the tenants of the faith. Especially when everyone disagrees on what those tenants are. Some Christians believe 'love thy neighbor as thyself.' But many of those same Christians would not love their neighbor if he were gay or had an abortion. Or they would go the old 'love the sinner, hate the sin' route. But to a certain extent, we are what we do. What we do is how we choose to represent our innerselves to the outer world. So if someone IS gay and you consider that a sin, how can you love that person?
And if someone is truly committed to their religion, and God told them to kill innocent people, and they do....are they still one of the 'good people'? And by whose standard?
I don't know, in all my years living in the midwest, I've met a ton of Christians. Not one of them could I say was truly 'good', by MY standards. Most are hypocrites. Some see Christianity differently and have different standards of good and bad. To me, if you're going to really be a Christian, you love the raping, murdering, pig-humping guy down the road as much as you love your own child. Because that's how Jesus would love them. But it doesn't usually happen that way.

Religion, politics and every other belief system are, I think, magnifying rorschachs, people get out of it mostly what they bring to it.

Well, I wasn't meaning to exclude other belief systems(such as politics) because I do agree that similar folks tend to flock together, but recently, most of the bloodshed in the world is due to religion. I haven't seen much Republican/Democrat bloodshed. Our mideast problems are due to religion, Christianity vs Islam, Judaism vs Islam, Christianity/Judaism vs Islam. Hell, even Hitler claimed to be in the religious 'right' vs Judaism. White supremacists think God is on their side. I just think a lot of it boils down to 'my god is better than your god' or 'you're not following god's law', and when you're talking about your very core belief system, many people think it's worth killing and/or dying for. Not as many people would be willing to kill over tax cuts or NAFTA. I hope.

Rogue Slayer | June 01, 08:46 CET

While we're discussing religion, does anyone know why Christianity is considered a monotheistic religion when there are at least three gods (God, Jesus, and Satan)? I've never got that.

I like what giles(yiimrn) and Rogue Slayer have said. That's pretty much how I see things. Bobster, I like your term "non-theist." Atheism is about conviction in non-belief, and agnosticism is about question of belief, but there's really no word to describe someone who's just unconcerned with the divine. (I'm assuming this is how you mean the term.)

Invisible Green | June 01, 09:02 CET

I don't think there can be much debate over the Christian references in much of Buffy, especially the ending of Seasons 5 and 6, each of which is in its own way a powerful Christian allegory. That's not by accident, I have to think.

Obviously there are lots of "non-Christian" aspects...that's why it's an allegory, and not a strict retelling. I mean, C.S. Lewis didn't expect to think that Aslan *was* Christ, just a methaphor for him.

Invisible Green, Satan is not a god, merely a fallen angel. Big difference. And I'm not going to try to explain the mystery of the Trinity here...or anywhere, for that matter!

Chris inVirginia | June 01, 15:06 CET