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June 12 2004

What worked and didn't work in Angel season 5. Interesting thoughts and analysis by cjl at the ATPoBtVS&AtS discussion forum.

The Wes/Fred protion of 'A Hole In The World' DID WORK.

I just felt like an overbearing use of the caps lock key.
I also thought that ME fulfilled it's remit as regard the whole Greenpeace / Shell Oil idea. The system could not be subverted from within - in the end battles can only be won (or even fought) by fighting...
That was a pretty well balanced round-up of the season. I thought the reviewer went a little hard on Wolfram & Hart but I agree with him/her about Wesley & Fred and especially Eve. I was also pleased to see THE CAUTIONARY TALE OF NUMERO CINCO recieve a 9. It was one of my favorite episodes of the year and along with SMILE TIME, my favorite stand alone of season 5. All I hope is that Fox moves their butts on getting seasons 4 & 5 out on DVD.
I also agree with the Wesley and Fred part of it. I felt let down when suddenly they were together and the next episode she was dead. It would've impacted me more if we had gotten to see the relationship develop over the season with Fred acknowledging from the beginning that she was attracted to Wesley. I was annoyed when the season started and they were having her be attracted to Knox and again ignoring Wesley so to then have her suddenly realize she had the hots for him, become a couple and then die in a matter of a couple of episodes was just not a good way to then lead into the Illyria storyline. But Illyria and Wesley were great together and my only regret was we didn't get Illyria introduced earlier. But if there had been a next season I'd be having that to look forward to.

And Eve just never fit. I never warmed up to her at all. She made me miss Lila the whole season.
far as I know S4 is coming out sometime in the Fall,at least thats what the flyer(or whatever U call em) said in the S3 boxset.
so Im guessing s5 aint gonna be out for a while. Cancer out
I was wondering, any of yall know of any easter eggs on EITHER the Buffy or Angel DVD sets? ? ? Ive yet to get BTVS season 6 so only 1-5 and ATS 1-3. if you have any, Id appreciate it

just mail
sorry puppet cancer, there's only easter eggs on Buffy season 6 and 7 so far
"Looking back, the invasion of the cyberninjas in "Lineage" was probably the Circle’s test for the 'intriguingly unstable' Wesley. Why was this never followed up?"

Good frickin question. It'd be great to be able to ask the writers about this one. Anyone know what conventions they'll be attending this summer, if any?

I'm with the reviewer on Lindsey as well. Great surprise return at the end of "Destiny", but pretty much all downhill from there (except for sword-fighting shirtless Lindsey in "You're Welcome", who was still confusing and mishandled as a character, yet pretty enough eye candy to almost make up for that). His storyline just made very little sense, even with enormous amounts of fan-wanking to explain how his character got to that point after driving away in disgust near the end of Season 2. It simply didn't track. Fans shouldn't have to fan-wank so much of the off-screen plot to make the on-screen, in-episode material make sense. See, stuff like Nina coming to W&H for those months we didn't see and furthering her friendship with Angel? I was fine with that, when we saw her in "Smile Time" it all felt believable and right (and I wasn't really keen on going along with Angel for the ride-around-the-block with yet another hot blonde, that sort of plotline was dead and beaten to death way before Season 5).

I think Angel Season 5 had some great character arcs, both new to the series and continued from previous seasons (Wesley's overall character arc, from Buffy Season 3 to now, is perfect). It had some fantastic standalone episodes and the latter half of the beginning of the season before the winter break gave me the impression that we were in for something much bigger than what we got...and I guess you could excuse them since a lot of Season 5 was apparently set-up for the most likely final season, #6...but knowing that doesn't take away the feelings of disappointment in the overall W&H and Lindsey plotlines. And while it's nice that people are trying to feel better about the series end by going on about how the sentiment expressed in finale (the fight never really ends, it's worth it to keep going no matter what the cost, etc) is fitting, and I agree that it is, it doesn't change the fact that that's not the ending intended for the series. There's no way I'll ever feel content about the ending to the Buffyverse, not unless those TV-movies actually end up happening and work out really nicely...and that's just sad and a bit of a waste. It was great to have a strong beginning and middle, but for me a story needs a strong and satisfying conclusion too to really stand the test of time, so I can look back on it fondly (part of the reason I'm of a mixed opinion about Buffy overall is that, despite six seasons that I thought were great or at least good overall, the seventh season sucked so badly overall despite three or four quality episodes that it was enough to almost ruin the experience for me. I can still go back and enjoy Seasons 1-6, and I can respect how the series was ended in "Chosen", but I'll never be satisfied unless they do some major damage control in the film or something).
Not to get into a whole thing here, but I don't think anyone needs to fanwank Lindsey's return this season. The one consistent part of Lindsey's character is his inconsistency. He can never choose a side. The episode that introduces him as a major player in the mythology (Blind Date) centers around this very issue, and his final scene is also centered around it as Lindsey flirts with the idea of being the good guy once again before Lorne decesively ends that fantasy. I would think one would have to to possess a very romanticized view of our Tiny Texan to think he wouldn't be switching sides endlessly.

However, his plan does make little to no sense but still was a lot of fun to watch and isn't that really the point. There isn't a better jawdropper in the series history than his return in Destiny.
I always got the impression that Lindsey ALWAYS wanted to be on the side of good. Circumstances being what they were, either the good guys didn't want him, or his life depended on him going with the bad guys.

I always sensed an envy in him. Towards the white hats. Like a kid pressing his nose on the candy store window. And he always seemed like he never had control, "hand", if you will, (ouch) over what befell him.

Any power he ever had was always temporary and always generated by the bad guys.

Christian Kane's portrayal was nuanced and always a bit sad. Lindsey was a great character. Remember how happy everyone was when he returned? Joss is well-known for creating shades-of-gray characters, and Lindsey had that in spades. I adored him.
geez how many times can I say the word "always" in one post?
How do you access these Easter eggs on the S6 DVD? I just want to say how excited I am to finally be able to post on this board, I have been reading here a long time and I really enjoy it. There seems to be much criticism of Buffy S7 and I'm not sure why...Are there any out there that really liked it? I guess I'm one of those fans that has enjoyed every season of Buffy for different reasons and I don't really have a particular favorite season.
I enjoyed season 7 although I don't think it was one of the best seasons. I also really liked season six and I'm liking it even more now that I get to see it uninterrupted on DVd. I'm sure I'll like season 7 even more when that's released.

As for the easter eggs go to disc 2 in the OMWF episode, you go under Language and go down to subtitles (I think) and then hit the button to go left and a hidden "B" will highlight. If "subtitles" isn't right, just try doing that with each one of the other selections until it highlights the "B". There's another one on disc 5 for "Normal Again" and you do the same thing. I thought there was one more but I can't remember. I just checked every episode under the language option to find them.
Thank you blwessels...I'll check it out!!!
Thinking of Lindsey today... and no, not in that way.

In 'Dead End', it's interesting how Angel seems to have no real anger toward Lindsey for his part in the murder of human Darla. Lindsey was intregal in that murder, which is the motivation for much of Angel's action that season yet here the spar a little but it's more in a (to paraphrase Lorne) buddy-cop movie kinda way.

I think Angel's behavior is justified by his recent epiphany but still. Then again, looking at 'Not Fade Away' maybe Angel didn't forgive Lindsey for that.

Willowy - that's a nice thought about Lindsey but I don't see anything to back it up. He had plentyof chances to turn to the good guys, and greed & envy always made him choose Wolfram & Hart.

[ edited by Unitas on 2004-06-14 06:48 ]

[ edited by Unitas on 2004-06-14 06:48 ]
Unitas, I don't think it was greed. Envy, yes, but even though he liked not being poor any more, I never felt that money was his main motivator, except at the very beginning. His main motivator was staying alive. Seems like they (W&H) were always threatening to kill him if he didn't do this or that.He also felt he belonged with them. Like he wasn't really good enough to be with Angel and his friends. And he tried to be subversive sometimes, at great peril to his own personal well-being. Remember the blind kids? It just never worked out very well for Lindsey.

When did he have a chance to turn to the good guys? They never wanted him, except the rare occasion when he was in a position to help them for one time or another. It wasn't like there was this invitation to join the fang gang. Far from it.

And how exactly did you want me to back it up? I stand by my earlier statements. I think they are the truth.
What I was saying it that I just don't see anything in the text of the show to back up your view of Lindsey. Sure, he likes to get all morally conflicted every once in awhile but in the end, he chooses himself always.

Also, are we really supposed to let Lindsey morally off the hook because Angel & Co. was never nice to him?
Well, it looks like we should agree to disagree.

Where I see insecurity, nuance, and conflict, you see evil moustache twirling. *shrugs*

And why shouldn't we let him off the hook? Everyone else always gets let off. From Giles (another I adore) to Xander to Angel to even Harmony.
We should probably agree to disagree but I don't see Lindsey as simply evil. I see all that insecurity & conflict that you see, it's why he is a good character. What I don't see is an excuse for his actions.

Angel, Xander, Giles & all the rest of our heroes worked & struggled to do good in the world and occasionally they failed but you are talking about someone who worked for Wolfram & Hart, and not someone who was trying to change it from within but who was trying to move up the ladder to the top.

Really , what did Giles or Xander ever do that can compare to being the golden boy for Evil Incorporated?
Giles and Xander (by summoning Sweet) killed innocents.

And Lindsey was never the golden boy, as much as he would have liked to have had that much value to someone. More like the flunky.

He never relished his job like Lilah or Gavin. There was always a certain hesitation and more often than not, you could see his different emotions playing across his face. Usually fear was a big one.
Thanks for the comments, everyone. Oh, and Unitas--I DO NOT ABUSE MY "CAPS LOCK"! (Really, I object to your slanderous assault on my writing style...)
cjl - I hope you realize I was being silly, even without the requiste :).

Willowy - If you want to morally equate summoning a song-&-dance demon, with working at Wolfram & Hart for years then fell free. And I hope your not equating the murder of Ben with working at Wolfram & Hart because that's just wrong. Ben may be an innocent (he does give Dawn back to Glory's minions in WOTW so he may not be as innocent as some think although that may be justified be the bleeding of the Glory/Ben personas) but he houses a God who will kill untold numbers of people if he is allowed to live.

Sidepoint: Xander's summoning of Sweet and the lack of any sort of reprecussion from it is the only flaw in the otherwise prefect OMWF. In a season where the abuse of magic is major part of the storyline, this seems off. It's a measure of how entertaining OMWF is that I didn't even see this the first half-dozen times I watched it.

Back to my main point, you keep talking about Lindsey being afraid at Wolfram & Hart but when he wanted to leave he left with no reprecussions. And he is the one choosen in 'Dead End' to stay with the company, not Lilah so he is the golden boy.

I'm not gonna go back & forth on this forever but may I offer that you are confusing charisma with morality here, or as I like to call it 'The Spike Problem'.

[ edited by Unitas on 2004-06-14 17:34 ]

[ edited by Unitas on 2004-06-14 17:35 ]
You keep saying "working at Wolfram & Hart" like that is the most unpardonable sin Lindsey could do. How is working for them any different than working for any other evil entity, say for instance, D'Hoffryn? Just sayin, in the Jossverse, sometimes it's more bark than bite. If W&H were all that powerful, then whatever's good in the world would've been wiped out already.

I could be being influenced by Lindsey's charisma, but I think it's more that I feel sorry for him. And when he left, he ran away. I think that W&H didn't consider him important enough to chase down and kill, that's why he didn't suffer any repercussions. Or maybe they smugly thought, "he'll be back." I could speculate all day.

And I keep talking about him being afraid because he WAS. Don't tell me you never saw that! Anyhoo, good debate. Feel free to rebut again if you want...

(Oh and I wasn't trying to give "excuses" for Lindsey's actions, just reasons.)

*edited to add that last bit*

[ edited by Willowy on 2004-06-14 18:12 ]
D'Hoffryn, that's a really good thing to bring up. Anya is a real moral question mark in the Buffyverse. I will say that as Anyaka (there is no way I spelled that right) she was demonic and when she lost her powers she became human. Now what Anya did with that humanity is important, she tried to live the life of a good, decent (if odd) person. She could have become an evil witch or offered up her years of knowledge to work at, say... Wolfram & Hart (just to bring this back home).

As for scarred, it's Lindsey who struts around the office after the Dru & Darla massacare while Lilah is the one desperate to save her own hide. I really don't see many (or any) scenes that really play off Lindsey as scared of W&H.
Jumping in here because of the Anyanka comment. Yes, Anyanka when she lost her demon powers stayed on the side of good but why. She didn't chose to be human again, she was made human again because of being punished by D'Hoffryn because she screwed up. She then became attracted to Xander and latched on to him. They fell in love and when the relationship ended and she was offered the chance to become a demon again she chose it. So that was twice that Anyanka chose to be a demon and do evil. So I wouldn't say that Anya chose to live the life of good since her motivation, at that time, was just to be with Xander. So everything she did was to please Xander. Now, later after she kills the college Frat boys, she does willingly chose to give up her demon powers and live as a human again and this time it wasn't because it was forced on her. But Anya started off as a human and twice chose to be a vengeance demon because she was pissed at life. So there was no way of knowing if love didn't treat her right a third time if she would again do the same. I like to think she had learned her lesson but who knows.

Lindsey, in my opinion, could've been good but chose not to. I think some of it was because he had been corrupted so much by the power he had, some of it because he was weak. I do think, at times, he wanted to be good, but the power always drove him back to take the easy way out. I also think he perceived himself as bad too. I think he did leave that time with the intent of being good but being good was just too much work. I think he liked the thrill he got by being powerful and missed it. I assumed when Lorne killed him, Lorne knew Lindsey's future and that Lindsey would never be able to remain a good guy. Lorne had heard him sing and he also heard Eve sing. I don't think Lorne would've killed him if he did't believe that Lindsey would always be a danger. Not knowing all of Lindsey's background, with the exception of him being from a poor family, greed and power is what ultimately controlled him. I think everyone has some good in them but some people head down the wrong path and that's what happened with Lindsey. I think he truly got to a point where he may have wanted to change but couldn't break his old habits because it was easier not to have to change.

It would've been nice, though, to have gotten a glimpse of Lindsey's life between when he left in his truck and when he returned. It may have been more believable to see him forced to live in poverty as his "punishment" from Wolfram & Hart because he broke his contract and after having lived a luxiourous life he can't deal with it and that's what sends him back down the road of evil.

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