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July 23 2004

Angelic words. Ancier: "...If there's a way to keep it alive for the huge fan base, that would be great."

What he's really thinking is: We screwed up by letting the best show on television go, and we are sick of all the negative publicity, so we might give a little back to the fans. Or he's just saying that so we calm down adn then when the dust settles (no pun intended), we will just ignore it and nothing will happen at all. Of course, we know that we won't stop bothering them until they do something to pacify us.
I think Ancier is just trying to save face. He may actually appreciate the Angel fan base or he may not. This does not prove he does. Now, if we heard that he was begging Joss for a spin-off (a fantasy I've been having since this all began and I started wishing Levin would get fired) I might change my mind.

That said, I still hope we get Angel movies.
No, no. What he's really saying is:

"The WB totally realises that they (we) made a bad decision when they (we) cancelled Angel. I'm a new face in the CEO seat, so it doesn't look like we're going back on our decision and admitting our mistake. It just looks like a new perspective."
See, I think what he's saying is "Levin screwed up big time and the bigwigs were pissed off with all the negative attention so they fired his sorry ass and I got promoted - now they want me to fix it and I'm begging Joss Whedon and David Boreanaz to come back and do some Angel movies for us so we don't lose the millions of Whedon fans but they aren't cooperating quick enough and I'm scared I'm going to lose my job too unless I start placating all those fans and try to woo them back to the Frog."

But seriously, just because of all this talk about the movies is an indication to me that they truly do believe they f*cked up when they canned Angel and just how valuable that show and the Buffyverse was to their network that they may want to do another spin-off after these supposed movies happen. I honestly don't think that they truly believe just by keeping the idea of a movie or two in the future will placate us enough to get us to watch their other shows. I think they are really trying to kiss up to Joss by pursuing this just in case he does want to do another spin-off.
The guy before me really screwed up letting the show go. We've got nothing to replace it and I need some goodwill quick. Or something like that.
As long as it brings us some Angel movies. Keep writing letters.
I'm just laughing my ass off at the scrambling going on over at the WB. What a fine mess they've made of everything. What makes it so frustrating is that if they'd just listened to the fans all along, they wouldn't be in the position of trying to initiate a delicate dialogue with Joss while Serenity has 1/3 of his full attention. (How GA thinks JW is going to fit in anything else between that, the AXM and BtVS:TAS, I can't imagine.)

And yet, this is a good sign that they're taking our continued pressure seriously. Postcards left over from the 'Save Angel' campaign will be put to good use this week as I explain to Mr. Ancier just how correct he is in his dawning realization -- that many of us won't be watching his little network ever again until some vestige of the B/A-verse makes a triumphant return.
Did anyone else wish she would have ask him if recieving over 1,000 beanie babies didn't give him a clue about Angel's fanbase back in March. And all this stuff about how he wasn't there **Cough, cough** Bullsh!t **cough, cough** he was Levin boss and could have overridden his descission but he didn't and now he's all whiney about it.
Ultimately, whilst i may agree with you all that this stinks of desperation on the part of Ancier and the WB i say ...

Who cares!!!

We now have the best chance we are ever going to get to firstly get these movies to happen and more importantly keep the momentum going for the third show.

Problems ahead? ME being willing to work with the WB again? With Levin out of the picture i seriously doubt that Joss will be holding any grudges and he knows that Serenity won't be occupying his time for very long so he will want something new to work on.

The real problem is David wanting to continue and i still say most of his talk of "raising the bar" will disappear if they "raise the money" but even without DB the telemovies can happen, this we know from what James said recently. The only downside is that there won't be a direct continuation of Not Fade Away.

So rather than state the obvious and say that the WB are desperate to get us back how about we spend the time using them for every ounce of deperation they have and get these movies made!
I do think DB will eventually budge if enough fans keep bugging Joss. That information will then be passed along. Once DB realizes how many people want to see Angel in any Angel project (not essential for some, I realize, but quite honestly my personal attachment to the Broody One precludes complete satisfaction without his presence), he might be more favorably inclined to reinhabit the character on the small screen.

Or, considering he's got a wife who loves antiques and a kid who's going to want to go to an Ivy League school (or at least dad's alma mater) someday, the fistfuls of cash the WB should soon start waving in his general direction might prove an even more effective incentive. He's in Hollywood to make a living, isn't he? Well, it ain't called show 'BUSINESS' for nothing. ;)
et see Joss still owes the BBC a Ripper movie that he already has an outline for, he is writing X-men comics and still has connections at Dark Horse for his Vampire comic series, Nick had mentioned back in April that Joss working on creating a new series tenatively called "Brothren" (I think that was the title). Then he may only have a month of filming left for Serenity's cast but he has a few monthes of post-production to supervise before it's release. Then he'll have the press tour he'll have to suffer through for it. Oh and not to mention trying to work and pitch Buffy the Animated series. So huh, think he'll be busy for a while.

Now let's look at the financial reality over at the WB, Levin is gone but who didn't see that coming with double-digit losses in both audience and revenue. This year most of their line-up is inhouse and they are using the stars of these series to pitch product for a mediocore discount store chain. Funny how now Ancier now be moans the loss of Angel, when he could have easily corrected the situtation back in Feb or March by saying Levin jumped the gun by cancelling it but they would need more time before making a descission on keeping the show. Then if Joss, ME, or FOX insisted on the answer then he would have a real reason for the CYA back then, but now it's just farsighted hinesighted spin. Look back over last year from the end of the 4th season all the way until the cancelation announcement - taking off any blinders or rose colored glasses of delusion and tell me you didn't see this cancelation coming. It was written on the wall as clear as day in big lettering they didn't care then and Ancier was in charge so why should we believe the bull they are trying to pitch at us now. Sorry but their poor excuses and promises are almost akin to that of a domestic abuser, beat them down and when they finally refuse to take anymore, come back to them and ask for forgiveness by promising them lies and if you go back you'll just get abused all over again, then whose the real fool. You know the WB will demand a pound of flesh to make any Angel movies, more restriction, more concessions from FOX, ME, Joss and crew. Do we really want that for these guys, to give the WB the rope for which they can tie us up and beat us with, again. Cause you know they will if the movies are made for the WB, I'm sorry but I do not have the emotional investment to put into that, I will not allow them to use my loyality for the show to line their pockets. I would love to see Angel movies like everyone else but they need to move on they are better than the WB - perhaps HBO or Showtime movies are an option, TNT has made movies from shows that have left the air before (and made them better), straight to DVD, or syndication - these are all viable optiions for Joss and crew then to be doing movies on a lowly 6th ranked network. At least then perhaps the show, the creator, the writers, the actors, and the rest of the crew will get respect they so richly deserved but never recieved at any time from the WB.
RavenU, to firstly respond to the issue of Joss' involvement and other commitments, the Giles/Ripper project is not going anywhere with the BBC regardless of whether Joss and Anthony want it to happen. The Beeb have had their own changing of the guard recently and the current administration is not as genre friendly as the last. If the Giles idea is to go ahead it will most likely end up a part of the movie series James mentioned now. Joss' comic book writing career is the sum total of one regular book a month so that is hardly going to take over his life. Brethren, whatever that turns out to be, has been mentioned once by Nick and is far from what i would call a sure thing. As for his commitments to Serenity, that is a fact but again i would argue that he is the guy who was willing to have three weekly television series on the go at the same time so one movie and a few teleflicks is hardly going to bother him.

Putting all that to one side though there is no saying that Joss would have to be deeply involved in the telemovies himself anyway. There are plenty of people who could showrun whilst Joss oversees the big picture.

As for your problem with the WB, this i can appreciate but in this day and age you cannot afford to be too picky. If we start deciding that we aren't going to get behind a project because we don't like who is involved or because we are worried that it will fall through then you can guarantee that nothing will ever happen.

Playing it safe and waiting for the sure thing is going to get us nowhere. This WB telemovie deal may be the only chance we have of keeping the franchise alive and i'm not willing to let that die without really being sure that they are not serious. The movies may end up being awful but then again they may end up being the best Angel adventures ever!

It's a risk but without risk you don't gain a thing.
It's not a risk - it's a pipe dream the WB is spouting. If you except past actions will predict future ones, look at the way they treated Angel has been treated by the WB. Needless to say, I will not be holding my breath for the WB to bring Angel back, I will however be more than happy to join any campaign to get TNT to make the Angel movies - cause they woulddo them without Angel.

I also concider the fact that David has said he would not be inclined to return to Angel anytime soon in TV movie form. Thus Ancier can state they want it back in complete safety - cause he knows David has no intention of doing Angel TV movies.
From the interview:

"I haven't had a conversation with the creative forces yet, but I'm hopeful that will happen. I think the fans would love it. The show was great quality, and I don't know the specifics of why it's back or not, but if there's a way to keep it alive for the huge fan base, that would be great."

The words in bold make me think that Ancier's mouth and a bull's ass have something in common.
Well i'm not going to repeat what i just said in my last post but unless you have the exact skinny on what is being said in the WB offices i still would hold that none of us know what Ancier is really planning and therefore we should not waste this opportunity as it may not present itself elsewhere.

We cannot just assume that the WB will repeat their past mistakes. Even the big bad television networks have the capability to learn.

As for David, firstly it is not unheard of for people to have a change of heart and secondly he is not expendable as Ancier has not stated that he is only interested in Angel movies on the WB. In fact they have been very vocal in stating that they want to regain the "Buffy" audience and not just the fans of Angel specifically.

I'm totally with you in focusing on other networks and channels too but this is an avenue that needs to be explored even if you end up being correct and nothing comes of it.
Ancier: "...If there's a way to keep it alive for the huge fan base, that would be great"

I wouldn't be surprised that if they start saying we want to make the movies but b/c David does not they wont get made. In other words stop bothering me and start bothering him.
I'm reading this as a "song & dance" from the WB. They do realize they made a mistake in the cancellation of "Angel" and they're still trying to figure out what to do. Which leads to Levin falling on his sword and Ancier pointing fingers. And yet, they still don't get it.

I must agree with RavenU and Wiseblood. This is taking us nowhere. I do not think the WB is serious in pleasing the fans, they are merely doing damage control in their promise of the movies. They're just taking cover 'til the heat dies down.

My hopes are with Joss Whedon going with a more "friendly" environment such as those displayed by Universal Studios or Home Box Office. Can you image "Fray" on screen with Joss at the wheel? Go as dark as you wish. Joss could blow the "Sopranos" (SP) out of the water! "If wishes were horses". OK, I'm done with the rant. I wish everyone a good day. Mad is out.
Damage control, shmamage control. None of us are falling for this for a minute. There isn't going to be any Angel movies for a very long time.

If they try to do something without Joss and Company, I can't see myself watching. Also, I don't think the actors would want to do this without his input. Anything in the 'verse has to be ME, or it just won't be as good. And I know I don't want to see a cheaply done rip-off, no matter how "profitable" it may be for the network.

I hope Joss has hickeys on his bum from these dipshits kissing it. He deserves MAJOR sucking up after what they put him through.
Well it's wonderful spinning but there could be some substance to what he says. I guess its a case of wait and see, though there would be no harm in a renewed fan campaign.
Could this group be a little more negative? I mean, we have the new head of WB programming publicly saying he wants to continue the franchise and most of the posts do nothing but complain. Maybe he's full of it but I don't see many other groups stepping up to keep the 'verse going. And I'd also like to remind everyone that we are talking about the second lowest rated one-hour on his network so despite several posters sense that Angel fans are some huge lobby I don't think we have much to stand on except the WBs good will.
Anyone who wants to believe anything a network executive has to say has every right to do so. Just don't expect everyone else to be so trusting.
I don't expect people to be 'so trusting' perhaps just a little less cynical.
If the WB hadn't time after time let us down I don't think most of us would feel this way. They've had a long history of continually screwing the Buffyverse. And regarding Angel being the second lowest rated show on their network (and is that counting all the shows that started at the beginning of the season and then cancelled because they sucked?), they've contradicted that themselves a couple of times (conveniently after they cancelled the show). Regardless of whether or not that is true, they themselves said that Buffy and Angel were the cornerstones of their network. Jordan Levin, when asked at Angel's 100th episode party, if there would be room on the network for two shows about a vampire assured everyone that there would be and several weeks later they cancelled the show. They kept Angel for four years and this last season the numbers were better than ever. This was after they reduced the budget for the show and put all kinds of demands on ME to do it their way. But still, the numbers improved and the audience grew that even Joss Whedon for the first time thought the show was finally off the bubble of cancellation that it had been on just about every season. Also, don't forget the constant time slot changes and night changes that we were subjected to yet the loyal fans followed it everywhere they put it. They claimed the show didn't repeat well yet they never showed it in reruns (and TNT showing it in syndication has been a huge success and dvd sales have been phenomenal). At BtVS 5th year it was also on the verge of disappearing because of the WB but UPN stepped in and showed how much they wanted it. So I don't think it's cynical to be distrustful of the motives of a network that one week says one thing and then the next week does something else. One week they're going on about how wonderful the Buffyverse has been and then the next week they are tring to get rid of it's shows.

And if Angel was really of little value to them and the audience so minimal as you feel, why would they even want to bother with movies and trying to bring us back to the fold.

But yeah, I'm hoping this is true but with their history I don't want to get my hopes up for nothing. When we hear news back that it's going to happen that'll be different. That will prove that they meant it. Up until now, they haven't really given us any reason to believe them. I do feel that they are really interested to do something but it's because of the fans reaction and the all the negative media attention they got when they cancelled the show in the first place. I don't believe for one minute they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts or for the sake of the Buffyverse. They know they screwed up and they're trying to fix it.
Of course, the WB is not doing this 'out of the goodness of their hearts'. They are talking about making Angel TV-movies for the only reason a television network does anything, to make money.

Angel was the second lowest rated one-hour on the WB by season's end with Gilmore Girls, Everwood, Charmed, Smallville, & Seventh Heaven all scoring higher numbers (despite massive audience loss on those show's parts), and One Tree Hill (the only one hour, with the exception of Tarzan, that Angel had higher seasonal ratings then) was actually gaining audience as the year went on and was the only WB one-hour to do that. I mention this not to say Angel had no value or the audience is minimal but to try to correct the fevered fandom in their belief that cancelling this show was completely unreasonable. By the way, you can look up whatever I say about the ratings.

The WB is probably the only network where we are going to see the Buffyverse continue (UPN is clearly not interested and the show's ratings have never been big enough for the big four). The WB is saying publicly that it belives that this mythology has some (financial) value. Maybe nothing will come of it. Maybe it's just something to say to appease the Angel fans. But, it is also the best chance we have of seeing the show continue in some form so something beside scorn & compliants may be in order.
"And I'd also like to remind everyone that we are talking about the second lowest rated one-hour on his network so despite several posters sense that Angel fans are some huge lobby I don't think we have much to stand on except the WBs good will."

"Of course, the WB is not doing this 'out of the goodness of their hearts'. They are talking about making Angel TV-movies for the only reason a television network does anything, to make money."

These two statements, IMO, seem awfully contradictory. On one hand you imply the audience is small and that if movies are made it's because of the WBs good will and when I point out that there obviously is an audience that's significant because why else would they want to do it (therefore because of the money) and that they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart you then state of course they aren't and it's all about money. Explain to me what's so different about my statement "Goodness of their heart" and your statement of it happening because of the WBs goodwill. I don't see too much of a difference there exeptt using a different phrase that means practically the same thing.

And I don't think people on this board are reacting negatviely because of our "fevered fandom". This is in reaction to how we feel the show was treated, high ratings or otherwise. You don't address any of my other points about it's repeatability, the constant rescheduling, the high praise one week, the cancellation a couple of weeks later, the same thing almost happening with BtVS, and another point, when they renewed for the fifth season Joss Whedon was given the impression it was a whole season and only found out after the season had started that it was only for half a season (he found that out only because they decided to renew it for the whole season because it was doing so well in the ratings). And they never seemed to promote the show at all. I watch Everwood and Smallville and I was always seeing promos for those but I hardly ever saw anything for Angel (unless it was being shown next after Smallville). These are legitimate gripes that most of us have. And to defend Angel's ratings, it's numbers had grown this season and were growing at the end of the season too. This was it's best season ever.

And regardless of the ratings, it was about the treatment and the lack of support that most of us feel angry about. If the WB realizes this now and makes good on their attempt to do something else with the Buffverse that's great but until then I reserve the right to be skeptical and not to get my hopes up.

And did you ever think that maybe the fact that so many people wrote to the WB with scorn and complaints (and don't forget all the articles from critics filled with scorn and complaint) is what is factoring into their decision to want to keep the verse alive?

Sorry if this seems like I'm attacking you, it's just that I'm baffled by your refusal to see that there are legitimate reasons that people are annoyed and distrustful of the WB and that's why people are very leery of this actually happening.
I side with you in this blwessels.

Once burned, twice shy.
OK, everyone stop and take a breath.
I don't know if Joss will have time to do any teleflicks, or if the WB will be able to woo DB back, or even if they're financially able to/sincere about reaching out to the BtVS/AtS audience (for whatever reason). I do know that they're acutely aware they've lost millions of weekly viewers (in addition to the correspondingly connected advertising revenue) whether directly related to Angel's cancellation or not, and that they're becoming desperate, by this point in time, to speedily reverse that trend.

If everyone who reads this thread that's interested in seeing an Angel/Buffy project on the WB would write to Garth Ancier and let him know, what harm could it do? The cost is a stamp and a few minutes of your time.

Because of the way the WB has trifled with Angel, particularly, throughout its history, I find myself torn between skepticism and hope. If you're in a like place, perhaps send a postcard on behalf of hope while you hold on to your skepticism for the sake of sanity?
Great advice Wiseblood. Networks will respond better to reasonable letters than ones full of anger. Let them know how disappointing it was to see Angel get cancelled and how much you miss the Buffyverse. Tell them if it was the only show you watched or if it was a show that got you to tune into other shows, which happened in my case. I never watched anything on the WB until Buffy and Angel. Tell them how excited you are about the upcoming movies (I always act like it's a done deal) and how much you are looking forward to it.

I am also torn between skepticism and hope but I do think that all this talk, that the WB seems to be initiating, is a good sign that this could be real and that they mean it this time. But because of things seeming like they were going in the right direction before and then not happening, it's hard to keep getting my hopes up. But the fact that lately they seem to be bringing up praise for BtVS and Angel and how much it meant to the network and how they hope they can do movies, gives me hope that they are serious this time. Again, they are initiating it and not trying to bury it under the rug like they were when they cancelled Angel. When they cancelled Angel they were always trying to downplay it and BtVS importance but they seem to be singing a much different tune now. Hopefully, it's a sign that things will get better.
Networks will respond better to reasonable letters than ones full of anger. ... Tell them how excited you are about the upcoming movies (I always act like it's a done deal) and how much you are looking forward to it.

A Chinese proverb says it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. (Unless of course you prefer the dark.) Making the effort to communicate with the WB is something that will actively demonstrate the depth of our continued interest. At the very least, it may serve to lengthen the dialogue between them and ME, which could make an eventual collaboration of some sort more likely.

Sure, nothing's guaranteed. That's not why we fight, though, is it? Even if nothing comes of it, at least we can know we tried.
Yeah, Wiseblood. What Would Angel Do? ;)
Good comments from all. The very fact that Ancier is making this statement should effect us all. We're making a difference. I doubt the WB will ever understand us or what we are, but they are starting to hear our voice.

Can we finish this thread? I'm so ready to move on.
blwessels - I don't have the time right now to respond to your post in full. I merely want to state that my use of the term 'good will' refers to the WB's feeling toward the Angel movies. All that is keeping the Angel TV movies a possibility is the belief on the part of new regime at the WB that they will be successful. If all they see from fans is scorn & contempt then that belief is not bolstered. Therefore, it's better (as Wiseblood said) to try to court the WB rather than vilify them. The only way we see the Buffyverse again is if a group of executives believe that it is financially viable much like Univeral came to believe Firefly was.
Unitas - if you've read all my posts, I do not say to villify them at all. My only beef with you was that you seem annoyed that people are being vocal, on a discussion site, about their skepticism and there have been a lot of reasons why people feel that way.

I get where you are going with about we should be happy there is a chance and I hope that's true that there is a chance but so far we've been let down by the WB many times that it's a normal reaction for most of us to feel a little less than trustworthy of them. I kind of said something similar in my first post on this subject that I thought it seemed legit and that they were serious.

And Wiseblood quoted my comment:

"Networks will respond better to reasonable letters than ones full of anger. ... Tell them how excited you are about the upcoming movies (I always act like it's a done deal) and how much you are looking forward to it."

I sent them a letter when they cancelled Angel mentioning how disappointed I was and how much I had gotten out of the Buffyverse and that through watching Buffy and Angel I had become interested in other shows on their network but I wasn't interested in any of there proposed new lineup and most likely wouldn't be watching their network in the future. But I'm sure a ton of angry letters from others also let them know how poorly their decision was going over.

But now they seem to be trying to make amends and letters from fans saying they are extremely happy with the possibilities of movies will help. But most of us just want to take a wait and see attitude because we feel that they haven't come through in the past.

If the new regime at the WB shows they are serious about this the fans will come around and be happier. But til then, people are just expecting the worst because that's what we've gotten so far. We'd all love to be proven wrong.
Don't think this merits any kind of Spoiler tag:

At the Serenity panel today, Joss once again stated his gratitude for the WB putting on his shows for five seasons "when no-one else would", despite them making "decisions lately that I have obviously disagreed with", said in a very meaningful voice. Clearly, he is grateful to the WB; equally clearly, he probably wants to keep all industry channels open.

Also: in response to a question about a possible return of "Angel" to TV, Joss pretty specifically ruled it out, at least that's how I understood his response, but also repeated his desire to make BtVS/AtS movies and to see the "Buffyverse" (his words, not mine) continue "in some format".
I'm sure Joss is trying to keep all channels open, it makes good business sense to do that. Just a bit confused about him ruling out no return to tv for Angel but possible desire to make movies. I'm assuming then he was referring to big screen movies than television. Frankly, I'd prefer that myself but I do still hope that the WB has been serious on their part about wanting to do movies because that would indicate that they may be interested in doing any possible spin-offs. I'm wondering if JW and SMG have been talking about possible movies because SMG supposedly said in her segment that although she thought that television was the best place for BtVS arc wise that she wouldn't rule out doing a movie if she was handed a fantastic script. Maybe they'll get together over this weekend and announce there will be a movie - I can hope can't I?!!
blwessels: since I'm still riding the wave of euphoria from yesterday and today's Comic-con, I have to tell you: yes, you can bloody well hope!

If you'd seen the spontaneous standing ovation for Joss and the Serenity crew, basked in their wise words, and, the kicker, heard Joss say, in responding to the question how he managed to write quality 22-episode TV shows for many years, a feat that somebody had said was impossible: "To quote Captain Malcolm Reynolds: 'We have achieved the impossible. And that makes us mighty".

Yep. I'd say you're entitled to hope. :)

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