Haha. I like this one: Sarah Michelle Gellar dates Freddie Prinze Jr.

I personally think that Buffy never jumped the shark. They kind of turned the shark jumping on its head. The best example would be bringing in the little sister and using that to tell a powerful story.

electricspacegirl | July 27, 10:12 CET

I think the show jumped the shark with the last scene of 'Lessons' - the beginning of what I feel is the most contrived, contradictory and generally incoherent season of television I have ever had the oppurtunity to view

aapac | July 27, 10:35 CET

I don't think Buffy ever actually jumped the shark, but it toyed with the concept a few times. The 'Eye of Botox' demon that spilled S7's plot beans got kinda sharky for me. And the 'satanic temple' DarkWillow happened to conveniently find at the end of S6 was definitely edging toward shark territory. (Please. Satanists can hardly agree on the tenets of their belief system, much less the aesthetic design of evil architecture.) And what about Willow/Kennedy steaming up the screen so soon after Tara's death? (These are, of course, some of my pet peeves. YMMV.)

Still, even in moments when the storylines leaned far enough over the cliffs of ridiculousness to spit, they never quite toppled over into the water and became chum.

Wasn't there even a BtVS episode that featured a shark demon? I remember thinking at the time that it must have been an inside joke among the writers who kept up with the JTS website. Or am I just confusing TV with some other alternate reality again? ;)

Wiseblood | July 27, 10:49 CET

aapac, never saw the x-files, huh?

I think that season 7 had a bit of all of those things you listed, but that didn't stop it from being entertaining. When you look at it scene by scene or episode by episode there is good content throughout. The overall story was a bit weak, but I tried not to pay too much attention to that aspect.

Caleb | July 27, 10:50 CET

This has indeed come up here before. But it's a good link and it's nice to see it again.

I'm not sure where I'd peg it, or even if it's possible to point to any one moment. But after 'The Body' -- an absolute masterpiece -- the show never felt the same to me. I don't think the show ever recovered from Joyce's death. Too many changes -- less humor, weaker relationships among the core four, the feeling of isolation in the Magic Box, and a few others -- they all negatively affected the show, in my opinion.

I think it's clear season seven meant to address these issues, but it created some serious characterization and continuity problems on its own.

On preview: I totally agree with aapac. Among other things, season seven had way too many deus ex machina that were either unexplained or totally incoherent. This, I think, started to rear its head in season five as well.

Caleb, I watched BtVS for its overall story and its solid characters and its solid writing. Season seven butchered all of that. YMMV, of course.

Smo | July 27, 10:59 CET

Wiseblood, there was a shark demon in Tabula Rasa : a loan shark whom Spike owed some kittens. I always thought he was a pretty lame character in an otherwise excellent episode; your idea that this was a joke about jumping the shark now seems like a good explanation to me.

TactGuy | July 27, 11:03 CET

You know, things that are messy, or a little convoluted or even poor continuity does not make for "jump the shark" moments. 'Jumping the shark' has to be a ridiculous element, thrown in a story or episode for pure shock effect to attract attention grown out of sheer desperation to keep ratings afloat. Fonzie waterskiing, then jumping over a shark. That's where it came from.

Tara's death was not jumping the shark. For one thing Joss planned to kill Willow's lover (Oz originally) way in advance so it just doesn't qualify. And while I agree that season 7 had the most holes in it of all the Buffy seasons I still didn't see any jumping the shark in there. The scene at the end of Lessons was simply symbolic of how all the previous big bads were still in a way only threads in the fabric of the ultimate evil of the universe. The fact that evil would do little but taunt and fold it's arms was not yet known. Which would be a little dissappointing but still not jumping the shark.

And yeah there was a shark demon but that was a joke because he was a loan *shark*, hehe. I really think that's all that was meant to be.

Some might argue that Angel's turning into a puppet in AtS S5 was jumping the shark. Technically I suppose you could make a case for it, but I think it was just so well done and funny and not just a cheap gimmick, that I still can't count it as that.

EdDantes | July 27, 11:10 CET

EdDantes, while I agree with most of what you've written, I think there's an argument to be made that season seven is itself a shark jump. Not in the strictest sense of the phrase, but maybe it amounts to the same idea anyway.

It's hard to narrow it down to a single ridiculous point of contrivance because the whole idea is so bad.

ETA: You wanna talk about asinine moments thrown in for shock value: Spike's torture at the hands of the Ubervamp, or eye-less Xander, or...

[ edited by Smo on 2004-07-27 10:00 ]

Smo | July 27, 11:57 CET

Here is the Angel Jump the Shark Page for those who want to know, for the record it has the higher percentage of never jumped votes out of the two shows. I personally think Angel jumped when Joss decided to have it on the WB, first and only mistake.

400lb_Gorilla | July 27, 12:13 CET

My personal definition of "jump the shark" is when a show starts to lose some of its quality. (Obviously with this definition many shows jump the shark before they even air).

The first time I noticed that I wasn't quite enjoying some of the Buffy episodes as much as I used to was near the end of season 6 around the time of the wedding episode. I loved season 6 up till then but after that something was just off. There were some high points of course from then until the series finale (I actually think Xander having his eye gouged out was pretty cool), but I knew that Season 7 would be the last because the show had just run out of steam and it was time to end.

I never got that feeling with Angel. There were some weak episodes but I didn't think the quality was ever on a steady downward turn. It easily could have had one more season of high caliber episodes.

prufrock | July 27, 15:58 CET

The first time in my BtVS obsession that I stood up from my chair after an episode aired and exclaimed aloud "Well, that sucked" was 'Bargaining, Part 2'. I was tremendously excited before Season 6 began, but terribly disappointed with how lame and unimaginative the 2-part season opener was.

I vividly remember being huddled next to the TV wrapped in a duvet WAITING for it to get interesting or funny or compelling in some way. Justing WAITING. And waiting. And waiting.. and waiting. Until finally, when the credits rolled, I stood up and said OUT LOUD (to no-one) "Well, that SUCKED."

That was when I stopped EXPECTING the show to be great week-after-week. I never stopped HOPING it would be great, but the Season 6 opener killed the certainty for me. From then on I almost dreaded the next episode. I went from thinking "I can't wait to see what happens next week!" to thinking "God, I hope the next one is better than this".

So, if that's what it means to "jump the shark", then I guess that was the moment for me.

Bad Kitty | July 27, 16:46 CET

I would agree with those that Buffy never jumped the shark in the traditional sense. When you have a show that regularly does the outlandish and nothing seems out of the ordinary it is difficult to say that anything doesn't work or makes the show seem ridiculous.

Very few series can get away with musical episodes for example but with Buffy the episode was so popular it got a cd and seperate dvd release, something that infamous Happy Days episode never managed.

Season six didn't work well for me first time through but that was because i wasn't ready for the show to go through such a radical attitude change. Every time i've watched it since the season has worked more and more for me and it all fits quite nicely.

Season seven did have a lot of less than spectacular moments if i'm honest. Having said that though most of my problem with the final season comes from trying to accomplish too much and trying to deal with too many new characters and guest stars. There was no shark jumping, they were just too ambitious and because of that much of what i wanted to see, for example some actual development for Xander, was pushed to the side.

Again though i think Buffy avoided the dreaded jumping of the shark quite nicely ... unless you count the potentials ;)

Warlock | July 27, 17:22 CET

I agree with EdDantes in that "Jumping the Shark" is when something so outrageously ridiculous happens that it just becomes the last straw that brings about the camel's untimly demise. It is the point when people go, "That's it! this show is gone." I don't think there's a single person here that can say Buffy jumped the shark in that way (otherwise you wouldn't be here). I think people are confusing Jumping the shark with whether or not they liked season 6 & 7. I think we can all agree that the worst episodes of Buffy are better than most best episodes of other TV.

KypTheMovieGeek | July 27, 17:47 CET

Count me in the jumped-the-shark with season 7 group. (or, if i have to pick a specific moment, maybe the arrival of the first potential? or the selection of the first as the villain?)
I think the phrase started with the Fonz, but it's come to mean any point when a series really started to go downhill. before that, it could haver had low moments, or episodes, but the overall quality was still rising or steady. As a few other people have mentioned, Season 7 was the one, for me, where i kept watching, kept hoping, but no longer expected it to be good. I haven't seen it again yet since the DVDs aren't out in R1, and maybe that will change my opinion. But for me, the magic was gone. the characters were acting inconsistently, i no longer liked Giles or Buffy, Xander was never on screen, the SITs became too numerous to have any sort of character development, the plot holes were gaping, and the writing/dialogue – always one of the stellar points of BtVS – became sloppy. I used to dread hearing yet another speech from a buffy who seemed to have overnight become totally humorless.
All of which is to say – there may have still been some good moments and episodes (Storyteller, Conversations with Dead People, Selfless....), but overall, the quality was way down. And when SMG announced she was leaving, I wasn't as sad as i would have thought. because it was clear the show was ready to end. Contrast that with Angel which, though i wasn't thrilled with a lot of the arcs in S4, came back wonderfully in S5. It so clearly had many many stories left to tell and was yanked before its time.
Incidentally, it's always been curious to me that the musical is #3 on that page for why Buffy jumped the shark. I used to hope it was just people who meant that was the last high point before it went downhill, which could be conceivable, but then i started reading some of the comments. there are a lot of musical haters out there! To each his own, but it's hard to imagine how that could be seen as anything less than a brilliant hour of television...

acp | July 27, 17:49 CET

I also must agree that BtVS never "jumped the shark" in the true meaning of that term. Dawn's introduction and Tara's death were planned well in advance by Joss. I thought these events fit in well with the overall story arc. Now, there were some plots in season 7 that came close to "jumping". Remember Giles not touching anything/possible First Evil plot? Even Anthony Head has remarked that he didn't think this followed Giles character very well. I can think of several more: The Guardian, Botox Eye, Kennedy's relationship with Willow. Again, not "jumping" events, but I think these plots should not have been used. Still, BtVS season 7 was better than anything else on TV with Angel a close second.

Madhatter | July 27, 18:00 CET

Oh, in retrospect I would say that when Buffy died at the end of s5, the show took a definite turn downhill. I even liked Spike up to that point!

It may not have had a literal 'jump the shark' moment, no, but the general weight of the last two seasons definitely fit the bill.

PMMJ | July 27, 18:06 CET

A point i think many Buffy/Angel fans should consider when deciding on whether Buffy jumped the shark is the high standard it set itself over the years.

At the end of the day Buffy was such a brilliant television show that any drop in standards, however noticeable to us, still meant that season seven was no worse than some of the best seasons of most other shows.

Definately a case of being too damn good for it's own good i think! :)

Warlock | July 27, 18:09 CET

I have to agree with EdDantes and KTMG -- not only on their definition of the phrase, but also that this is different from liking a season. I don't have as negative an opinion of s7 as many, although I agree that the potentials and Buffy's speeches were a bit tedious, and I would not rank it at the top of my list of favorite seasons. On the other hand, there was nothing that signaled to me that the writers had reached a moment of ridiculous desperation creativity-wise from which point there was virtually nothing redeeming in the remainder of the season or series. Even at its worst, BtVS was heads above other TV programs, and, like a good friend, I am willing to forgive its momentary lapses and its uneveness, as the rewards of the investment so far exceed the disappointing moments.

palehorse | July 27, 18:11 CET

No other TV series has come close in captivating my attention. Not Angel, not The X-Files, not Babylon 5 or Star Trek: DS9.

Buffy had its off moments (and when they were off, they were very off) but as a whole it just took my breath away.

Simon | July 27, 18:15 CET

I seem to be one of the few that liked season 7. I recently watched it all the way through in 3 days and thought it was very intense. I have a couple problems with the story, one being that Beljoxa's eye only brought up questions that were never answered, and the other being that the fact that the Slayer line went through Faith and not Buffy was never addressed. If Buffy really believed her death would activate a new Slayer as she told the potentials, why didn't her season 5 death mean that in season 7 there were 3 Slayers and not two? Whenever a new Slayer was called (Kendra, Faith) they wound up in Sunnydale working with Buffy.

An explanation for this is that Buffy was using a classic paramilitary trick to motivate the potentials, but I think it confused the viewer (me). I don't think season 7 was as bad as people say. My brother just watched it and said it was the best season of Buffy ever, and he has high standards.

I'm going to agree with EdDantes here. Jumping the Shark is not about when you stopped liking a show or when it went downhill, it's the stunt that is purely a ratings grabber, and it's one the doesn't work. I don't think jumptheshark.com's definition of jumping the shark is accurate.

electricspacegirl | July 27, 19:00 CET

If you want to talk about a stunt that was purely a ratings grabber, having Ashanti as a guest star would surely count as one. I don't think Joss Whedon thought she was a great actress (at least I hope not). I think it was obviously an attempt to get new people to tune in. I can only hope the idea was UPN's and they forced it on him.

prufrock | July 27, 19:27 CET

I just wanted to say thanks to nicoblu710 for posting this article. I looked at it and thought, well this is old news. I've seen the BtVS JumpTheShark page a long time ago. But it has actually sparked a very fun debate. Just goes to show that old news can learn new tricks?... or something to that effect, "insert your own aplicable saying here" I think you know what I'm getting at.

[ edited by KypTheMovieGeek on 2004-07-27 17:35 ]

KypTheMovieGeek | July 27, 19:33 CET

Like others, I think jumping the shark has to be a very specific, dread-inducing moment of pure shameless crap that is entirely not justified by anything that preceded it. If you can't put your finger on it (e.g. Season 7 as a whole jumped the shark) then I don't think it qualifies. Which isn't to say that S7 didn't show a decline - I think it did too.

Funny comment, prufrock, about Ashanti. Of course, being slightly, ahem, farther from my teens, I had no idea she was anybody in particular, and I thought she was OK in "First Date". And, funnily enough, that episode was where S7 for me turned the corner back to quality after several terrible and draggy episodes.

"Bring on the Night", "Showtime", "Potential", and "The Killer in Me" would be my choice for the worst 4-episode sequence in the entire series. With "First Date" I laughed for the first time in ages, and felt really fuzzy about the show again. The rest of the season was variable, but I think it ended on a high note.

SoddingNancyTribe | July 27, 19:40 CET

The show reached it's peak in season 3, then it fell off a bit, then rebounded, but then after "The Body", that was it. It sunk real low and never recovered... so for me, that's when if "jumped the shark"

nychick | July 27, 20:23 CET

Funny, I didn't know who Ashanti was, either. So the "stunt" was lost on me.

Another viewer a bit far from the target demographics.

palehorse | July 27, 20:27 CET

Out of all the above posts I agree most with what EdDantes and KTMG posted.

Buffy never jumped the shark - it scared me sometimes because I thought it was going to but it always surprised me and came back strong. Yes I enjoy some seasons and story lines more than others, but even my least favorite season of Buffy is way better than anything else on TV (not counting Angel) and better than the majority of the movies I have seen.

BTW I liked season 7 and am looking forward to getting it on DVD in the US when it comes out.

[ edited by Passion on 2004-07-27 19:10 ]

Passion | July 27, 21:09 CET

Passion's post reminded me to ask: am I the only Buffy-lover out here (in the U.S.) who has felt so *desperate* that he was compelled to buy Season 7 (and S6 for that matter) in the R2 version and watch it on his laptop until the R1 disks are released (and his bank balance recovers)? (Currently trying to hold out for AtS S4 on R1 - but may be losing the battle . . . )

Just something I've wondered a few times when reading of people waiting for the R1 release (of course, I totally understand financial constraints - in my case it's simple: the children don't eat for a week. But they get Buffy!)

SoddingNancyTribe | July 27, 21:25 CET

Just something I've wondered a few times when reading of people waiting for the R1 release
I've been tempted before but, strange as this may sound, I almost don't mind the wait. The big reason I don't do it, obviously, is financial – I can deal with shelling out the $$ once for a season, but twice is a bit much, since I know that within a year or two I'll be able to get one I can play on my TV.
But beyond that, I've made my peace with the wait time. I can't tell you how eager I was for S6. I had never seen the full airing of OMWF – some 10-12 minutes of one of my favorite episodes that i was going to see for the first time! But, the anticipation was nice too, and I loved still having something new to look forward to almost a year after buffy had gone off the air. I'm currently extremely excited about Angel S4 – it's far from one of my favorite seasons, but more than any other one, there are a number of episodes I've never seen. Again, it's almost like having Angel back on the air, with something new to look forward to.
So, while the R1 delay is frustrating, i've found the upside is that I have something to look forward to longer than people in Europe/Australia. Kind of like not rushing to open gifts before christmas morning, because the anticipation period is so nice. :-)

acp | July 27, 21:39 CET

SNT... I know the feeling, as I have just aquired an X-box that plays all region discs... but so far have resisted the temptation. I have heard that the UK versions are formatted differently and other un-josslike stuff. So, if I did buy the R2, I would also buy the R1 when it came out. And frankly, I just can't afford that! :(

Just a off-topic question.. what is YMMV? I thought I had seen them all.. ;)

I will never forget watching the end of Buffy vs Dracula with the introduction of Dawn. I screamed (at the TV) oh! NO HE DIDN'T (this is prior to my true joss obsession)! I thought that was a jump the shark moment! Bring in the kid to boost ratings... as has been done with oh so many shows before (think Olivia from the Cosby show). But, in true Joss fashion, he redeemed himself (in my eyes) and Dawn was not a ratings booster. I am not a fan of Dawn, but she was not a Jump-the-Shark moment like she could have been. Just saying is all. :)

Miko | July 27, 21:59 CET

Funny, SoddingNancyTribe, those 4 episodes you mentioned rank as some of the best of season 7 for me. Just goes to show how much opinions can vary.

As for the "jump the shark" debate, this is one that always grates my cheese. I truly dislike it when people write off entire seasons of a series. There is so much talent and hard work that goes into every single episode of a show like BTVS that it seems disrespectful to discount so much of it.

I consider the definition of "jumping the shark" to be a moment where everything after it was a downhill slide to crap. BTVS never experienced this, though Angel came kinda close before the great season 5 redemption. I hope that some fans find season 7 more enjoyable once the DVDs hit, because I think it's immensely underrated.

MindPieces | July 27, 22:19 CET

Mindpieces, opinions certainly do vary, don't they? How anyone (let alone 300-plus votes) could think "Once More With Feeling" was a sign of doom . . . well, that just beggars belief.

My problem with "Bring on the Night", "Showtime" et al. was really that they were just . . . so . . . painfully . . . slow and dreary. See the scary ubervamp gnash his terrible teeth, and do that scary stalk. See Spike manfully resist the First's entreaties to turn to the dark side. See Buffy scowl a lot and get beaten up. Repeatedly. Gratuitously. See nobody say anything remotely in character, characters that we've come to know for 7 years now. See a collection of poor actors employing laughably-bad English accents treat our heroes like sh*t, after all they've done, and our heroes, what, just sit there and take it. Although, upon reflection, "Killer in Me" is probably worth a little more than the others.

acp and angellove: you clearly have great mental fortitude. I personally can resist anything but temptation . . .

SoddingNancyTribe | July 27, 22:31 CET

In response to SoddingNancyTribe, I have a bit of a story. My college roommate got me on to Buffy two years ago. At first I was reluctant as I'm sure most people are, "C'mon Buffy the Vampire Slayer?! how can it be that amazing?" And I watched it and was, of course, blown away. So I watched all the 4 seasons he had and lucky for me season 5 came out right after I finished 4. But I blew through that in a week and was left with the thirst for more and waiting till season 6 and 7 to come out in R1 was not an option. So I hit up eBay and got them not being able to control my addiction. This whole thing applies to Angel too. I was able to get R2 Season 4 on eBay and taped off of TV season 5 DVD's after the last show aired (Which I was sad I could not watch live knowing it was ending) So to answer you question you're not alone. There are others out there who just couldn't/can't wait.

KypTheMovieGeek | July 27, 22:32 CET

what is YMMV?

Your Mileage May Vary. Just a shorthand way of saying IMHO. ;)

I've actually enjoyed all the Buffy seasons, and as I've rewatched from the beginning to S6 since the show's been off the air, it's become apparent to me that individual storylines throughout seasons are what continue to bug me most, rather than, for the most part, individual episodes. It's harder for me to ascribe singular events as having 'jumped the shark', therefore. But CrackMagic Willow, the Potentials, the resolution of the First, Beljoxa's Eye (thanks for the correct spelling above, electricspace girl), the Kennedy/Willow relationship, Buffy's speechifying, First?/Giles, the lack of meaningful Xander -- these were all storylines or characteri-zation elements that drove me to distraction, when in fact the individual episodes themselves might have been entertaining.

I'm still of the belief the show never caved in completely on itself because now I can watch the episodes featuring these storylines and derive pleasure from them without them being as important as they were during their first run, when the big picture was all still unfolding. That said, it does seem that most of the stuff that bugged me happened between the middle of S6 and the end of S7.

The fact remains that even baddish Buffy, as many have said, is worlds better than almost anything else out there.

Wiseblood | July 27, 22:52 CET

I always thought seasons 6 and 7 "suffered" (as much as I am willing to conceed to that... ;) because Joss was so busy with so much... Angel, Firefly... he couldn't make sure that Buffy was to the caliber of the earlier seasons; when the man himself could pour all of his energy into just the one series. So I see it as an accomplishment that all three series were so wonderful, at the same time. :)

Miko | July 27, 22:52 CET

oh... wiseblood, thanks! ;)

Miko | July 27, 22:55 CET

SoddingNancy -- I think I like those episodes because I enjoy the Ubervamp mini-arc, and I also believe that Buffy's speeches in BOTN and Showtime are amazingly cool. I do agree that they got out of control in the next handful of episodes, but by the time Storyteller came along they were able to realize this and poke fun at it. As for Potential...well, that episode makes me feel for Dawn every single time, has Xander's beautiful moment at the end, and tricks the audience by defying our expectations about Dawn becoming a slayer. Great stuff.

As for the Potentials, I enjoy them in a weird "it's fun to yell at the screen" kinda way. Ya know, it brings in some audience participation when I can yell "Hey (expletive deleted)! Why don't YOU come up with a plan if you think you're so darn smart?!" Kinda the same way that you get to yell at Kim when you watch 24. It's fun!

MindPieces | July 27, 23:17 CET

I don't think Buffy or Angel ever jumped the shark. As mentioned, the introduction of Dawn could've been seen that way but Joss handled it brilliantly. The musical could've been a disaster in the making but was the most glorious thing I had ever seen in my life and Angel being turned into a puppet totally fit with something that could happen in the Buffyverse that it made sense.

Season six, when aired, seemed on the depressing side but when I got it on DVD and was able to watch it with out the long breaks inbetween episodes, it ranks right up there with the best of them IMO. I'm looking forward to season 7 just for that same reason (and because I'm obsessed with Buffy of course). Seven seemed sluggish to me in the middle with what I call the "potential" block of episodes. It had a strong beginning and a strong ending but those episodes in the middle really weighed it down for me. But I'm sure when I get to see it in a marathon viewing session with no interruptions I'll probably more appreciate those episodes and think it's a great season as well. I've thought each season had a few sluggish episodes around the middle but the last two were made more apparent because of the long breaks between each episode. I'm sure when written that wasn't the plan to have that happen. How would anyone's reaction to seeing a great movie be if they were allowed to watch half and then had to wait a month to watch the rest. I'm sure your initial review when finished wouldn't be as favorable if you had been able to see it all at once.

I definitely agree with Ed that jumping the shark is something that doesn't fit in with the story, like Fonzie waterskiing, in his leather jacket and jumping a shark and like Bobby on Dallas being killed off and then showing up the next season and it all explained away that it was a dream. Other shows have brought in a little brother or sister but it always seemed a desperate attempt to recapture lost ratings. Joss had planned early on he was going to do this with Dawn and it was so brilliantly planned and made total sense and showed us another whole, wonderful side to Buffy. And kudos to all the actors who seemlessly made it feel like "Dawnie" was there all along. That's one of my most favorite Buffy plotlines.

Firefly Flanatic | July 27, 23:30 CET

How would anyone's reaction to seeing a great movie be if they were allowed to watch half and then had to wait a month to watch the rest.

Or have to wait about 5 months to watch the rest, as was the case with the brilliant and wonderful Kill Bill. Still, didn't really effect my enjoyment of the film though, just left me in anticipation. But as far as Buffy and Angel go, the seasons do tend to be better when watched in a marathon.

MindPieces | July 27, 23:40 CET

I agree with what you said, Blwessels. The Buffy/Dawn story is my second favorite love story on Buffy. It actually ties with Willow/Tara because it's hard for me to decide between them. My #1 favorite is Buffy/Angel.

electricspacegirl | July 27, 23:43 CET

Since people are talking about how much the episodes improve upon a marathon viewing (and me being a latecomer to the 'verse have only watched it in marathon format), I'm curious to know:

How many episodes can you watch a day?

I think the most I've ever managed is 10-12. My brain felt like mush, but really intelligent mush.

randygiles | July 27, 23:50 CET

10-12?! You are truly a strange and wonderful person, randygiles.

Most I've done is 5, which I believe were the final five of Season 5. ('Course, lest anyone think I am not a true believer, I have that wailing kids excuse ever available to shore up my geek credentials . . . )

MindPieces: kudos for the Xander bit in "Potential", which I forgot all about. Great moment, which doesn't quite redeem it for me. And nice with the audience participation re the Impotentials. I'll give it a shot - although how many more annoying English voices must one put up with in Season 7?

SoddingNancyTribe | July 28, 00:03 CET

Well, for me who started off watching from the beginning and then cruelly lost the WB network from my satellite service and had to wait to get tapes from a friend who lived far away, I could watch almost an entire season in one sitting! I do not recommend that though for first time viewership because your mind does kind of go to mush and you can't really appreciate what your watching as much plus your exhausted and all wired up that you then can't sleep!! I did that the first time I got a batch of tapes but from then on I'd try to just watch four at the most in a row so I could truly take it all in. I've been that way too with the dvds. But I usually do four a night, every night until I'm done. What's nice about it is (I watch with my family) we can watch an episode and then discuss it as much as we want before we move on to the next episode. Love the dvd sets so much!!

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 00:05 CET

Of course there were breaks for meals (well preparing them, we'd eat in front of the tube). We'd start in the morning and just sit there all day!

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 00:07 CET

When first watching (I never watched on TV just DVD's) I would go through a season in about 2-3 weeks. Keep in mind this was a college school year so I was also doing homework/papers/class/theater. But I did season 5 in about 3 days which works out to two days of 7 episodes and one day of 8. I am now rewatching the whole show with my girlfriend and we do about 3 a night. She's not as crazy as I am.

KypTheMovieGeek | July 28, 00:10 CET

randygiles... on an all day in my pj's kinda saturday i have probably hit close to that. :) never stopped to count though. ;)

Miko | July 28, 00:12 CET

SoddingNancyTribe -- It helps being American, because then I don't know how terrible those English accents are. I'm blissfully oblivious. ;)

MindPieces | July 28, 00:13 CET

I have been able to watch an entire season in 2 and a half days but my friend, who I recently got hooked on the Buffyverse, stayed up all night to watch season 3 in all its entirety. Now that's impressive.

electricspacegirl | July 28, 00:22 CET

I did Angel season 3 in two days and the last half of Buffy season 5 and the last half of Angel season 2 in two days as well. Actually, that was kinda cool. I bought the two VHS boxsets the day they were released, took two days off work and watched one episode of Buffy and then one episode of Angel and then back to Buffy and so on. Good times.

Had very strange dreams afterwards.

Simon | July 28, 00:31 CET

I think 8 or 9 is the most I've ever watched in a row, and those were culled from the first and second seasons of Angel to indoctrinate ease an open-minded but skeptical pal into the show. She'd never seen a single episode except "Home" before then, and now I'd say she's irrevocably hooked. (I've even have the distinction of being introduced as her 'dealer' in conversations with other mutual friends. ;)

Watching that much Joss TV at one time definitely has a certain effect on the brain. Whether it was the avid staring or something else, we both ended up feeling 'altered' by the experience, if you know what I mean.

[ edited by Wiseblood on 2004-07-27 22:36 ]

Wiseblood | July 28, 00:35 CET

"jumping the shark is something that doesn't fit in with the story, like Fonzie waterskiing, in his leather jacket and jumping a shark and like Bobby on Dallas being killed off and then showing up the next season and it all explained away that it was a dream."

I agree Blwessels. It becomes a little pointless if we all start making up new meanings to 'jumping the shark'. It's not just 'bad moments', or the moment when a series goes downhill (that differs per person anyway) it's the moment a series that already has gone downhill does something truly ridiculous that has no true story purpose and the only reason they do it is that hopefully it will attract attention. I don't think Joss ever made a decision purely in that light. Ahsanti was a guest shot but nothing in that ep was ridiculous or outrageous. She was just a minor guest star in an otherwise fairly uneventful episode.

Per definition you can't label an entire 22 episodes as jumping the shark. You just mean you didn't like the season. It's one of those terms that gets misused a lot on the net, just like "deus ex machina". After a while those terms just get used to designate weaker elements of a show.

And there's plenty in S7 particular that I didn't care for. I understand what SoddingNancyTribe's problems were with the episodes he mentioned. Bit draggy, too much SiTs stuff, and the fact that they were 'drowining' Spike, the non-breathing vampire is still one of the most grating details for me, especially since they had Angel at the bottom of the ocean for 3 monts not long before. And Buffy's speeches....ah the first one was fine, but it got weary very soon after.

The one I totally agree on is The Killer In Me. That pretty much is the least favorite for me in the entire series. The way Kennedy and Willow were 'suddenly' in love after one clumsy date and Tara pretty much wiped out even as a memory after that is just the weakest relationship element of the show for me.

Still doesn't make it shark jumping though;-)

"The fact remains that even baddish Buffy, as many have said, is worlds better than almost anything else out there."

I was just about to write that when I remembered you had already put it more eloquently than I was going to.

EdDantes | July 28, 00:49 CET

I think it's a little pointless to debate which definition of "jump the shark" is right or not. Until someone comes up with another catchy phrase for "the point when a good show starts going downhill" that's the definition I'll use for it. It's not a big deal, it's just my opinion.

Some shows jump the shark to the point I stop watching it (like ER). Buffy jumped a little baby shark. I noticed the quality drop but I still watched it because as it has been said before, bad Buffy is still better than most other shows.

prufrock | July 28, 01:28 CET

Back on our viewing habits, I being a loser and not having a job over summer break, decided to watch the entire verse'. I have all the available R1 dvd's, and the rest on tapes, it took me 2 and a half weeks to finish it, and that includes watching the episodes in the seasons when both shows were on, watching the buffy episode, then switching to Angel and back and forth. Needless to say, i have not watched any of them since. It was really tiring, but I do have a question, If you were to watch the episodes the way I did, during Angel Season 3 and 4, would you watch them before the concurrent Buffy Season 6 and 7 episodes, or after, I watched the Angel episodes before the buffy episodes, but It got a little dicey during the end of Angel S4, Anybody know the right way to watch the episodes?

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2004-07-27 23:45 ]

400lb_Gorilla | July 28, 01:42 CET

Sorry, Accidently double posted.

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2004-07-27 23:47 ]

400lb_Gorilla | July 28, 01:44 CET

(taking an interesting linguistic detour)

Prufrock: you're right, of course, that "Jump the Shark" seems to be the only available nifty little phrase to capture a show's decline. And anyone can use it however they wish, so long as people understand their meaning. However, I don't think it's so pointless to emphasize that, IMO, the potency of the phrase comes from its very specific origin in "Happy Days" and its narrow focus - the *exact moment* when a show completely lost its way. Identifying that moment is usually quite revealing in itself. Which is why I kinda like the categories the jumptheshark website have identified - they seem intuitively to describe the kind of desperate measures taken to keep an audience. Of course, some of the responses given on the site show that people have somewhat different conceptions of the phrase: how could "Sarah Michelle Gellar", to take a relatively uncontroversial example, ;), be given as the moment when BtVS "jumped the shark", except as a reason to dislike the show entirely?

I'm not a rigid prescriptivist, and I'm well aware that phrases like "deus ex machina", as noted by EdD, or more generally, "begs the question", have acquired broader meanings. But their "original" meanings have a certain flavor and a certain uniqueness that I don't want to give up and that's why I hearken back to them. Precision in language is no bad thing.

SoddingNancyTribe | July 28, 01:49 CET

There certainly are misuses of the phrase 'deus ex machina,' but I haven't seen all that many in Buffyverse fandom. If we can agree it refers to "an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot," then I can point to tons of cases in BtVS.

I'll limit myself to a few examples: Olaf's hammer, Summers Blood, Spike's soul, Kennedy, the magical Scythe, Spike's Amulet, Willow's Slayer spell. Although some of these may be more tolerable than others, it doesn't make them any less fit for the phrase.

Smo | July 28, 01:53 CET

Labour weekend. Last year. 38 episodes in 3 days. That got me to the end of season 4 which is where I'd started with the TV show. My flatmates made fun of me, but by then I was too far gone to care.

giles (yes, it is my real name) | July 28, 01:58 CET

EdDantes wrote "and the fact that they were 'drowining' Spike, the non-breathing vampire is still one of the most grating details for me, especially since they had Angel at the bottom of the ocean for 3 monts not long before."

Just do what i do and take it that the First was merely torturing Spike by having the Turok Han constantly force his head under water. Not to harm him, just to piss him off.

Hey, works for me anyway ;)

Warlock | July 28, 02:07 CET

The way I saw the "drowning of Spike" was that the act of his lungs filling with water was painful to experience even though he didn't need air to breathe to live. It's kind of like they still bleed if cut with a knife but it won't kill them and it still hurts. I can't be sure but I don't think we actually see Angel's face as he's descending but only see him as he's resting on the bottom of the ocean and his lungs are already full.

It's kind of like smoking (I used to, but don't anymore). When I had my first cigarrette of the day, the first couple of times I inhaled, it always hurt but then my lungs got used to it and I didn't feel it at all after that.

Anyway, that's how I chose to see it and in my mind it makes more sense.

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-07-28 00:15 ]

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 02:14 CET

A wizard did it!
(I hope someone gets that reference so I won't look like an idiot)

electricspacegirl | July 28, 02:23 CET

Smo: I agree with you with respect to the hammer, the blood, the scythe, and the amulet. Those would be classic dei ex machina in my book, since they are (a) mechanical; (b) out of nowhere (although the signifance of blood was obviously foreshadowed to some extent); and (c) rather too handily mop up difficult loose ends. Although, as you say, they are mostly quite tolerable and don't really evince a writer's desperation to escape from a trap of his or her own making (which is my thumbnail understanding of "deus ex machina").

Not sure if Kennedy or the Slayer spell really fit into this mold. What was the situation or plot tangle that Kennedy resolved? And the part of the spell that was a mechanical plot device was the scythe; the spell itself was a rather elegant expansion of the preexisting idea of potential slayers, coupled with Willow's known capacity for powerful magic.

Those examples tend to demonstrate how any unusual development or somewhat improbable occurrence can now be deemed a DEM which, in my view, weakens the whole notion. When Deus Ex Machina comes to mean no more than "huh, didn't see that coming", we have lost one narrow, powerful, and precise meaning, and replaced it with two loose interchangeable phrases for the same somewhat run-of-the-mill concept. But that's just my $0.23 worth. ;)

SoddingNancyTribe | July 28, 02:26 CET

I hesitated to add Kennedy to that list for the reasons you outlined. I think you could, however, argue that Kennedy was herself a plot device meant to resolve Willow, if that makes any sense. Kennedy gave ME an easy way to deal with a bunch of issues they didn't really have time to address properly. Hence the faux lovey-doveyness to their relationship.

On the spell, I think we mostly agree. I meant to point to it as a way to emphasize the scythe's sudden introduction as the most powerful magical weapon ever, of which we'd never heard before. That Buffy was so confident its uberpowerful essence could be magically harnessed and honed into the Slayer spell makes for some questions, at least. As always, YMMV.

Smo | July 28, 04:03 CET

The blood didn't seem deus ex machina from my point of view. It made sense and I didn't feel it was really needed to untangle any plot because, without it, they could have pushed Dawn off the tower instead of killing off the title character. Moreso however, since Dawn was made from Buffy, it made enough sense in my opinion and this was established early enough for it to work in my mind (plus with the forshadowing of Buffy's death made it more fit).

The show never jumped the shark for me. While it radically changed in season 6, I found the behaviors of the characters to come with good reason and I enjoyed the development. It was shakey in season 7, with some plot holes and weaknesses, but it was tolerable :) It had some really great episodes although the overall season seemed rushed.

As for the Once More With Feeling votes for 'jump the shark' on that page, I can't understand these posters' view that they see it as a gimmick or whatever :) Maybe they see it as a gimmick because it's a musical and therefore = gimmick. Whatever. I found the episode to be very successful at advancing the plot and revealing feelings of the characters they were hesitant/unwilling to show, particularly Buffy's revelation that she was in heaven. Quite of few of the comments made on that 'Jump the Shark' page seemed a little bit... I don't know. As if there was some misunderstandings and they didn't quite get some things in my opinion (like Willow wasn't a lesbian or a witch as soon as she saw Tara. She was a witch long before that, her sexuality was forshadowed and I've known people who have had a revelation of 'hey, I think I might like my gender...' after they meet a certain person. It was also really quietly done.) Whatever, though. It's so varied in opinion anyway :)

Natashia | July 28, 04:15 CET

Nicely said NatashaLea. I also thought the end of The Gift made sense because Dawn was made from Buffy and they established that early on, even with Buffy touching her blood and then Dawn and telling her that Dawn was made from her blood. It wouldn't have made any sense if none of that had been established and out of the blue Buffy just jumps to her death and then the rest say, "Well, of course!! She and Dawn have the same blood!" There was much talk of blood throughout the season as well.

I 100% agree with EdDantes on the Willow/Kennedy "love" affair. It wasn't believable at all to me to have Willow grieving still one second and then the next second she and Kennedy are madly in love. What Willow had with both Oz and Tara was so beautiful and sweet and with Kennedy it just seemed like so impersonable and blah. With both Oz and Tara there was sparkage from the beginning that built up to a great love affair.

And yes, Willow when she met her vampire self noticed right off the bat that her vamp self seemed to like her a little too much and commented about possibly being kind of gay - again, something introduced into the plot quite early on and then followed up with brilliantly. And I don't feel that it was all of a sudden Willow was gay. There was something right away with Tara but it easily could've just been a magickal connection because they both had so much powers and it grew from that.

Oz & Willow, Tara & Willow, Buffy & Angel and Buffy & Spike were all great relationships that showed so much emotion. Willow and Kennedy never had any real emotion at all. To me that was the most disappointing and most unenjoyable thing about season 7.

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 08:15 CET

Well, let's continue the agreeing. While I am frequently surprised by the varying opinions formed about even minor 'verse details , I must say, I have yet to see anyone embrace the character of Kennedy, personally (I might have missed a post I suppose at some point in the past). I know Amber decided not to return for Season 7, and I know Joss had a great storyline prepared for her return that had to be scrapped, but Kennedy never did a thing for me, except cause my shoulders to tense up and my eyes to squint in annoyance. I know he was (paraphrasing and probably nowhere near accurate) trying to show Willow in a "life goes on" kind of light. But, it did lend to the "rushed" impression I got of the season. It was just too fast. It didn't ring true. And if we had to endure it, I wish it would have been nothing more than a rebound thing, which IMHO, would have added even another layer to Willow's development.

Angela | July 28, 08:32 CET

I don't believe Willow and Kennedy were madly in love in The Killer in Me. That was about Willow letting herself move on, not about her falling in love with someone else. i didn't think the writers were trying to tell us that at all. Kennedy and Willow never used the word love. I don't think it had progressed to that point.

I don't think that relationship was rushed at all. That said, I do agree that Kennedy wasn't Willow's type, and I've been able to fan-wank it away so that Kennedy was her rebound girlfriend. I don't have serious issues with that relationship because rebounds happen sometimes. I don't see them staying together.

Angela, I've talked to a few people who love Kennedy. My brother thought she was cool. I think Kennedy haters might be in the majority, but Willow/Kennedy shippers are out there.

electricspacegirl | July 28, 08:52 CET

Fair 'nough. I figured there had to be some out there. I don't think they were in love either, and I've been able to chalk the relationship up in my head to a person, in the face of tough choices, seemingly insurmountable odds, and grave danger, wanting some measure of comfort and some degree of "connection" to another.

Angela | July 28, 08:59 CET

Well I must say that when phrases are invented or coined, I tend to stick to how they were originally intended. An episode where Buffy suddenly makes a porn film would've been jumping the shark for me.

As for Deus Ex Machina, even when the definition is agreed on, it can be more complex as to which story elements fit the bill.

The one element that is truly one as far as I'm concerned, is the amulet at the end of S7. Came out of nowhere, no foreshadowing or link to anything preceding, yet the plot could not have been resolved without it.

Olaf's hammer is a weaker example. It didn't come out of nowhere, it had been 'won' by Buffy earlier in the season which mostly rules it out already. Also, it wasn't like it was the main element of the plot or the victory. They used all kinds of weapons against Glory to weaken her, and it wasn't the thing that finally killed her or resolve the problem of the opened gate.

Which brings me to the Summers blood. That just doesn't qualify. Like Blwessels said, it's one of those things you could actually see coming (Not that I did. I thought Dawn would kill herself). They dropped hints throughout the season about them being of the same blood, about the blood of the key being, uh, well the key, about death being Buffy's gift. Not every surprise or twist in the climax of a story is a deus ex machina.

"I think you could, however, argue that Kennedy was herself a plot device meant to resolve Willow, if that makes any sense."

Eh, to me not so much. For one thing, Kennedy didn't actually 'resolve' anything about Willow. She just became the only thing Willow's character was allowed to be about in the last season. They just ignored most of Willow's issues except for her fear of losing control and even that they didn't really take anywhere. I still think Joss was resolved to end the show with Willow in a happy relationship and without Tara, they just went for this.

As for them not being in love, hey I would agree except at the beginning of The Killer in Me all they had were some unconvincing flirty moments which only seemed to scare Willow and yet at the end(where the same type of kiss that caused the whole mess suddenly makes it all better somehow. Tara who?) they walk off like a 'couple' and act, are treated and shown as a couple for the rest of the season, no questions asked. It wasn't built, it wasn't developed like the other relationships and was clearly an 'emergency-love' to end with happy Willow.

"I don't think they were in love either, and I've been able to chalk the relationship up in my head to a person, in the face of tough choices, seemingly insurmountable odds, and grave danger, wanting some measure of comfort and some degree of "connection" to another. "

Sounds like a good view on it. But I have a feeling it's not what we were intended to see. I just really really hope that if those character-movies really take off, and one is about Willow, that Kennedy is an 'ex' by then....

As for some of you guys' explanations for Spike's drowning torture.....well done, you've probably earned No-Prizes, but I can't make it work for me. I still think they really just forgot vampires don't breathe.

EdDantes | July 28, 11:59 CET

Hmm, i can accept many things about the cast and crew of Buffy and Angel. Mistakes get made and continuity errors happen all the time and we explain them away, that is part of the fun of being a fan.

But for the writer, the director, the actors and everyone else involved in creating that particularly scene of a show they knew very well by that point and not one person to say "Wait a minute, vamps don't need to breath!" it would take stupidy of a colossal level, far beyond what i think Mutant Enemy is capable of.

I do think that they dropped the ball by not making it clearer what was really being done to Spike and why, however i still feel certain that somebody would have said something about the whole "you can't drowned a vampire" thing at some point before the episode hit the airwaves.

It is just too blatant a mistake to be missed.

Warlock | July 28, 14:13 CET

I'm with electricspacegirl on the Willow/Kennedy thing. I never thought that it was supposed to be this great love story, but more about learning to move on after you've lost the love of your life. It seems obvious that that's exactly what The Killer In Me was about. That being said, I still didn't like Kennedy and have yet to find anyone else who enjoyed her. I think it was more of an issue with the actress and the way the character was written, not so much the fact that she wasn't Tara.

MindPieces | July 28, 19:10 CET

I think you're absolutely right Ed. I know full well that my little Willow/Kennedy theory isn't what we were intended to see. Worked for me though. :) I also agree that Joss wanted Willow to end happy.

My memory is apparently appallingly bad. Why do I not remember Spike's attempted drowning????? ...Must have S7 on DVD...can't stand it...

The silver lining in bad memory cloud is that I can watch the DVDs over and over, and little jokes, things other than the major story arcs and plots, are new every time. But the attempted drowning of non-breathing Spike! I must have had too much wine with that episode. The realization that the end was near did cause much drinkage during S7....

Angela | July 28, 19:40 CET

400lb_Gorilla, can you describe how it felt to watch some much in so little time, because if I calculate this correctly, you must have watched 14/15 episodes a day for 2 1/2 weeks, which means almost non-stop watching, when you're not asleep. I am just curious to know what this does to a person.

On another topic I think I could describe what I thought of Kennedy. Being European I watched season 7 slightly spoiled (it is impossible to avoid everything, even though I try to hear as little as possible) and had already heard about some annoying new character called Kennedy, before I saw her. I was therefore very curious to see why she was so annoying, but in fact in the first few episodes (up to The killer in me), she was actually my favorite SiT. For example the way she tries to include Amanda in the group in Potential, or that she was most vocal in not giving up hope. After that however, her character became more just the love-interest of Willow, and I too, thought it was not the best relationship of the series. Then she became part of the scooby-gang (which Tara for example never really did) and that simply felt wrong so soon. She didn't deserve those privileges and my opinion of her became definitively negative when she bullied the SiT's around in Get it done.

Celebithil | July 28, 19:40 CET

The First wasn't trying to drown Spike, The First was trying to torture him. The First even said so.

electricspacegirl | July 28, 19:43 CET

Celebithil - wow, that's exactly how it was with me. I initially liked Kennedy, but once the Willow/Kennedy relationship started she seemed to becoming demanding and pushy. It totally pissed me off that she sat in on all the Scooby meetings and was very verbal in disagreeing with Buffy on every point. It wasn't so much because of her being with Willow I disliked her, it was just how they made her turn out afterwards. And also totally bugged me that she seemed to feel like she belonged with the leaders while the rest of the SITs had to sit back and take orders from her. None of that ever made sense to me.

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 19:48 CET

My feelings about Kennedy are the same as Celebithil and blwessels - at first Kennedy was my favorite SIT, as time went on my opinion changed and I found her annoying. Too bad because I really liked her at first.

BTW where do the names Celebithil and blwessels
come from?? What do they mean? I have always wondered over the past few months.

Passion | July 28, 20:38 CET

Wow, I can't believe people are still deabting the Spike drowning a year & half later. I mean drowning hurts (to paraphrase blwessels above) so I never had much of a problem with it. If you want to argue that Vamps don't use their lungs then you are into a whole of Vampire physiology that's best left alone. Heck, vampires (being animated corpses) shouldn't be able to have erections either and clearly, they do (or the whole show stops around S2). You kinda got go with the show on these things or you are going to drive yourself nutty.

Oh, correct me if I'm wrong but Angel's coffin is not filled with water when they bring it up in 'Deep Down' so while Angel may be at the bottom of the sea I don't think he was 'drowning' (whatever that might mean in this instance)

As for Kennedy/Willow & the whole idea of forever love, Jane Espeneson described Kennedy as Willow's Riley which puts that relationship in perspective.

[ edited by Unitas on 2004-07-28 20:00 ]

[ edited by Unitas on 2004-07-28 20:04 ]

Unitas | July 28, 22:00 CET

Unitas - Very good point about the whole "vampires shouldn't be able to have erections either and clearly they do".

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-07-29 05:30 ]

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 22:05 CET

Oh, and don't forget the times when Angel and Spike are visibly breathing heavily...and smoking! I've always found that hightly amusing.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-07-28 20:18 ]

electricspacegirl | July 28, 22:17 CET

Electricspacegirl, that's what my husband just said when I told him about this latest discussion!

Firefly Flanatic | July 28, 22:32 CET

Oh, there's the scene in 'The Prodigal' from Angel S1 where you can see Angel & Darla's breath for the entire three minute scene (they really could have lighted it better).

Or how in 'The Yoko Factor', Spike play acts that he's breathing heavy when he takes the discs to Giles. Always wondered about that creative choice.

Unitas | July 28, 22:36 CET

My wife has always delighted in pointing out the vampire erection problem. She seemed to think that Anne Rice had the solution to that little paradox; anyone know it? Of course, vampires bleed throughout the shows (Angelus cutting himself for the ceremony in "Becoming" springs to mind), so if there's blood-flow, it's not much of a step beyond that . . . but how do they bleed? I agree with Unitas that internal nitpicking is itself a bit odd - I mean, once we accept slayers, vampires, werewolves, on what grounds can we really demand biological consistency? Nevertheless we do, because we care. :)

But Kennedy is to Willow as Riley was to Buffy? Pardon me for Urghhh . . . I see Jane's structural point - the getting-over the great lost love bit, but the two are so unlike in every other way. Kennedy was all me-me-me: I want Willow, so I'll have her; I want things to be done my way, despite my complete lack of experience - in fact, I'm used to always having my way because I'm a spoilt rich girl. Afraid to say I disliked her from the get-go, and I practically cheered when Faith shut her down at the meeting in "Empty Places". Although I wanted to like her at least for her apparent devotion to Willow, I read her motivation as being, purely and simply, attraction to the one with the most power. She sure said that herself enough.

SoddingNancyTribe | July 28, 22:38 CET

The Kennedy thing is a vexing question. I think it's clearly the worst central romance in the history of the show. Then again, considering how many great couples (Angel & Buffy, Cordy & Xander, Oz & Willow, Willow & Tara, Buffy & Spike, Giles & Jenny, Xander & Anya, heck even Burry & Riley were pretty good when you look back on it) the show concocted maybe we should give them a pass for flubbing one. However, Kennedy & Willow don't really bother me and I thnk I can best sum that up this way...

Unitas Like Willow

Unitas Want Willow Happy

Unitas see that Kennedy Make Willow Happy

Unitas Happy


Not very sophisticated but hey, what you gonna do. One more thing...


Unitas still bitter Amber Benson turn down contract offer

Unitas realize this makes him petty

Unitas | July 28, 23:10 CET

Oh, correct me if I'm wrong but Angel's coffin is not filled with water when they bring it up in 'Deep Down' so while Angel may be at the bottom of the sea I don't think he was 'drowning' (whatever that might mean in this instance)

Unitas, I remember in 'Deep Down' that when Wes winches Angel's box up from the ocean, a solid stream of water is seen to be gushing out from what looks like a good-size crack at the bottom of the box. (You tend to recall certain things pretty clearly after you've watched them, oh, twenty or thirty times...) It was hard to tell in the underwater scenes whether or not the box was also full, but Angel was definitely water-logged when he emerged, his clothes damp and his skin damaged (which may have been caused by his starvation, but was likely exascerbated by exposure to salt water).

I figured at the time the box was designed so water could get in on purpose -- to insure its lack of bouyancy so it couldn't hold enough air to pop up to the surface and permit Angel's escape, and also so that Angel would remain as uncomfortable as possible. I doubt he would have minded the ocean cold so much, being dead and all; his body would have simply equalized with the water's temperature surrounding him. He could, however, be perpetually wet, with all the attendent decay and salt irritation that would entail. Not to mention what it did to his hair gel. ;)

Wiseblood | July 29, 00:37 CET

Um, why do they define the show as a comedy at this website?

Invisible Green | July 29, 02:45 CET

Wiseblood - This is what I end up doing when unemployed. OK, I dug out my copy of 'Deep Down' (first, what an amazing episode) and took a look at all the scenes in Angel's coffin. There is a scene about 28 minutes in (following the Angel/Connor nightmare & proceeding Lorne's appearance) where Angel wakes up screaming in his coffin. Angel is thrashing about in his coffin (pov is from top of the inside of coffin) and it is pretty clearly not filled with water. We can hear Angel's screams (difficult submerged) and there is no thrashing of water in any manner. Perhaps this is more a practical filming matter (don't want to kill the star after all) but it does seem to indicate that Angel is not drowned during his summer vacation.

Unitas | July 29, 03:45 CET

I know the first wasn't trying to drown Spike, but it was trying to torture him with near drowning, and it just doesn't work. The thing is vampires CAN breathe, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be able to talk. (Or in Spike's case, smoke) but they don't NEED to breathe. When you hold you or me under water, we start to suffocate because we need air. A vampire wouldn't. Our bodies start to inhale in automatic desperation which fills our lungs with water, which is a terrible feeling. But a vampire's body wouldn' have those automatic spasm because he doesn't need air. He could just lie there with his face under water and simply keep his lungs still. And be...uh, bored?

I agree that it is almost too collossal a mistake to make for the ME people, and I personally wonder if they wanted to show some other torture than beating him up that would still pass the censors, and it's not feasible to have an Ubervamp hook up electrical wires to Spike. So they settled on this. And it's not all that important, but it still just doesn't work and it still bugs me when I see it. "Just lie still, ya moron!"

"I agree with Unitas that internal nitpicking is itself a bit odd - I mean, once we accept slayers, vampires, werewolves, on what grounds can we really demand biological consistency? Nevertheless we do, because we care. :)"

Exactly. And things should still make sense within their own mythology. If we start saying none of it matters, than we can have Spike suddenly walk around in the sun without explanation, because hey, vampires don't exist anyway so what does it matter. That's just not how it should work. Things should make sense within their own fantasy rules.

I can forgive a lot. I mean Angel is able to talk, therefore breathe, but he couldn't give Buffy cpr? Doesn't work either, but it was an important and emotionally powerful moment at the end of S1, so I can overlook it. And as you all point out, the actors often breathe heavily to show exertion which is nonsense too, but things that small, I can't care that much. In the torture scene with Spike, for me it was just kinda too big to ignore and too unnecessary, and lacking a 'greater good' like with the cpr thing to forgive so easily.

" Angel wakes up screaming in his coffin. Angel is thrashing about in his coffin (pov is from top of the inside of coffin) and it is pretty clearly not filled with water. We can hear Angel's screams (difficult submerged) and there is no thrashing of water in any manner. Perhaps this is more a practical filming matter (don't want to kill the star after all) but it does seem to indicate that Angel is not drowned during his summer vacation."

Kinda irrelevant, because he was still without air pretty quickly, which is what this whole thing is about. They don't need to beathe. Which has been established numerous times throughout both shows. Angel's stay at the bottom of the ocean just confirms it again. Wether the box was airtight or filled with water doesn't matter. He couldn't breathe and it didn't matter for his survival. The prospect of spending the next several decades, if not 100 years or so locked in this tiny box would make me scream too btw...

"Kennedy was all me-me-me: I want Willow, so I'll have her; I want things to be done my way, despite my complete lack of experience - in fact, I'm used to always having my way because I'm a spoilt rich girl. Afraid to say I disliked her from the get-go, and I practically cheered when Faith shut her down at the meeting in "Empty Places". "

Right there with ya.....right there with ya....

Oh btw, Anne Rice's vampires didn't have sex or erections. None of their organs worked anymore so she could bypass a lot of that. I have no clue as to how a vamps blood moves around in his body in the Buffyverse but I'm glad Joss left his vamps with sexual prowess....made for a lot of hot scenes!;-)

EdDantes | July 29, 05:15 CET

Passion as for your request where my name comes from, I'm flattered that you wonder about it, especially since this is only my 7th post, but I would suggest reading the book Lord of the Rings by Tolkien (which is one of my favorite books), including the appendices. Celebithil is my attempt at being poetic in Tolkien's elventongue, but now I think it is a bit too standard and unoriginal (in its meaning). This is also evidenced by the fact that there are a lot of other people on the internet going by the same name. However I thought of it more than six years ago now and I'll just stick to it.

Celebithil | July 29, 12:38 CET

Celebithil - thanks for the explanation - I have always been a "bad" reader when I was young, after college I took some time and read some books but never read LoTR. It's nice to know what the names people use on this site mean (I get the Buffy/Angel ones) especially when "talking" to each other.

Keep on posting!!

Passion | July 29, 16:51 CET

I love catching up on these posts! Wiseblood - I laughed out loud when I read your hairgel remark!

The drowning of Spike never bothered me that much - I always figured vampires didn't need to breath but they felt more comfortable if they did it since, as mentioned in above posts, you see them breathing all the time.

The erection issue: never thought about it too much, just figured if there was blood and pressure all systems would be "Go". Good thing too - makes for an interesting show, besides Spike and Angel without that ability...well it would be a shame!

Now the thing I wonder about is - if vampires don't cast a reflection how come they can be photographed?

[ edited by Passion on 2004-07-29 15:09 ]

Passion | July 29, 17:01 CET