Great link there Numfar PTB, Alexis certainly would be a very interesting choice for the role of the Joker. I'd love to see him play an out and out villain.

Simon | August 19, 15:57 CET

I think he could pull off the role quite easily. :D

Also, Out of the choices listed, The only other possible contender (in my eyes) would be Steve Buscemi.

[ edited by Daburcor on 2004-08-19 14:04 ]

Dan Corson | August 19, 16:00 CET

Definitely some stiff competition in that list of actors, but I feel Alexis could perform as well as the rest of them. Wish him luck in landing the role.

Madhatter | August 19, 16:07 CET

My fingers are crossed for Alexis!

Passion | August 19, 16:11 CET

I'd rather see him as Reed Richards in a Fantastic Four movie but the Joker would still be cool. I have a feeling the role will go to a bigger name actor, though. Assuming the article is even legit.

Xkot | August 19, 17:10 CET

Maybe not. From what I've been reading about the movie, the director wants to go with lesser known actors for the parts. He thinks it'll make the roles more believable. It's worked before, Chris Reeve was pretty much unknown before Superman.

Outside of BTVS & Angel fans, most people probably wouldn't know who Alexis is, so that may be a plus in his favor.

WilliamTheBloody | August 19, 17:15 CET

Xkot yes! He'd be the perfect RR.

Well there's no doubt he could pull it off (Joker), as long as they didn't try to make it a parody. I wouldn't want to see him being foolish, he's already been down that road with early Wes. I can totally see Alexis acing the meaty, serious villain role.

Willowy | August 19, 18:06 CET

Has anybody here ever read "The Killing Joke," the superb graphic novel by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland? There are flashbacks to the Joker before he took his chemical bath and went insane--gentle, touching scenes between an ordinary man and his wife that are heartbreakingly poignant. The pre-Joker Joker looked VERY MUCH LIKE ALEXIS. If Warners decides to go in this direction, I would be ecstatic, not only as a Buffy/Angel fan and an Alexis fan, but as a Batfan in general.

cjl | August 19, 19:07 CET

Agree, agree, agree about Reed Richards...there couldn't be a better Mr. Fantastic than Alexis...any other casting would be/is insane.

Don't care about the Joker. Good for him if he gets it, but it matters not at all to me.

Chris in Virginia | August 19, 19:41 CET

A few weeks back, I caught an episode of Highlander from a number of years ago in which our man Alexis played a British diplomat's son as a drug-addled murderer -- he bludgeons a woman to death with a brick to avoid her being an eye-witness to a hit-and-run. Even as a young actor, he showed he could go dark when needed.

I just don't see him playing Joker, however -- he seems to lack that certain wacko-psycho streak. Alexis comes off too serious, too intense, rather than the maniacal twisted killer that the character of Joker needs. I could see him as Reed Richards, or even a Lex Luthor, though.

Whedonage | August 19, 19:43 CET

Sorry, folks. Casting on the FF movie is set.

Michael Chiklis - Ben Grimm/The Thing
Chris Evans - Johnny Storm/Human Torch
Ioan Gruffudd - Reed Richards/Mr. Fantastic
Jessica Alba - Susan Storm/Invisible Girl
Julian McMahon - Doctor Doom

I think Alexis would have made a great Reed Richards. Not to be.

cjl | August 19, 19:49 CET

Chicklis is the Thing!? Good Casting!

I can't see Alexis as RR anyway. Not old enough. And he doesn't have the psycho streak to be the Joker. Buscemi is a little too "runty" to be Joker.

But off the top of my head I can't come up with a better suggestion.

sTalking_Goat | August 19, 20:26 CET

I complete agree with you cjl, wrt Alexis and the early Joker presented in "The Killing Joke." You absolutely beat me to it; if you hadn't pointed people to it, I would have.

It's easily one of my favorite comics (favorite stories, period), and is one of the few representations of the Joker I find compelling. I was pretty bored by Nickolson's performance in the first movie; I'd welcome a more menacing portrayal.

nemo | August 19, 20:44 CET

Thanks, nemo. You put Alexis in those flashback scenes, and he'd have the audience weeping inside of 20 seconds. So, for the drama, there's no question that Alexis would be a perfect choice. Only question about Alexis-as-Joker: can he do The Laugh?

cjl | August 19, 20:50 CET

And he doesn't have the psycho streak to be the Joker

He did a pretty good Jack from the Shining. He might be able to do a Jack from Batman 1! hehe

Rogue Slayer | August 19, 20:53 CET

Sorry, folks. Casting on the FF movie is set.

Julian McMahon - Doctor Doom

So Doctor Troy is going to be Doctor Doom, eh?

I think that's a role that David Boreanaz could have taken on -- he has the right "look" and the calculating menace, ala Angelus. Only problem is that David can't do accents -- if he has problem with Irish, imagine how difficult an Eastern European one would be to pull off!

I can't see Alexis as RR anyway. Not old enough.

The actor chosen for Reed Richards is even younger than Alexis (b. Feb. 1966) -- by almost seven years. (Ioan Gruffudd, b. October 1973)

Whedonage | August 19, 21:43 CET

Well Alexis certainly has the grin. Anyone ever see a red carpet shot of him with Alyson? Where he has that "she's mine! haha" face? Grinning from here to china I tell ya...well most of us would have that grin, having snagged Aly, hehe.

Seriously though, I think he could definitely have the psycho factor, and he looks the part far more than Nicholson did. He was just too old and way 'too Jack Nicholson' to be the joker if that makes any sense. (They even named him 'Jack' in that movie)

Plus script-wise they never got the Joker right. He wasn't supposed to be like the 'Kingpin of Crime' or anything. And yes Alan Moore and Brian Bolland's 'The Killing Joke' is a classic. To me that is *THE* Joker story. How Moore completely changed things around yet technically in a way didn't retcon a thing, was amazing. To understand the character, it's practically the only book you need to read.

Oh and yes Alexis is too young to be Reed Richards. But then so is the guy who is actually going to play Reed Richards....

Oh, SaveAngel already said that.....

[ edited by EdDantes on 2004-08-19 20:08 ]

EdDantes | August 19, 22:06 CET

Re the age of Reed Richards: between you and me, I always found it quite dodgy in the Lee/Kirby FF books that Reed was hooked up with a gal some 20-30 years his junior. And rereading some of those classics, I am totally floored at the way he patronised her. Typical scenario would be RR working too hard to find the cure for Ben, and Sue fussing around, trying to make life easier for her man by cooking and cleaning and so on, only for Reed to slap her down with a "darling, you don't understand, now get out of my way" type response. Times sure have changed - well, maybe not that much for some, but comic writing appears to have moved on.

So if Reed is somewhat closer to Sue's age in the movie, that works for me. And I have to say a word for Ioan Gruffudd, if only because he was in "Solomon and Gaenor", a little-seen but very good Welsh movie directed by an old friend of me dad's.

Anyone know or can guess *which* FF will be most influencing this project? I mostly know the Lee/Kirby, with a smattering of latter-day Byrne, but I imagine there are many other variations out there . . . And anyone have any insight into the listed director and screenwriters? Never really heard of any of them.

[ edited by SoddingNancyTribe on 2004-08-19 20:16 ]

SoddingNancyTribe | August 19, 22:16 CET

Regarding the too young x old for RR thing.
Alexis wouldn't be too young for RR.
I read somewhere that the movie take will actually be closer to the ultimate marvel FF version than the regular Marvel U version, which RR looks a lot younger:

A pic of the Ultimate Marvel Unvierse`s RR:
http://www.xbee.net/modules/xbee/images/comics_vo/ultimate_fantastic_four/ultimate_fantastic_four_cover2.jpg

Numfar PTB | August 19, 22:26 CET

I remember the issue where Sue became The Invisible Woman, very powerful it was too. Let's that was around Secret Wars 2, so that would be 86/87?

And Ioan Gruffudd. Loved him in Hornblower but his best role to date for me was the BBC TV movie 'Warriors'.

Simon | August 19, 22:26 CET

According to internet buzz, Marvel wants the movie to reflect the more recent "Ultimate Fantastic Four" version of our favorite quartet. In that context, and with Gruffudd and Alba as Reed and Sue, Sue's not going to be Reed's "little woman," and Reed will NOT sport his stylishly grey temples from the regular FF books.

But I've got to disagree with you on one point, SNT: it's not an FF movie unless Reed is working feverishly and obsessively (to the exclusion of food, sex, good manners or shaving) on some sort of Kirby-esque machine to save the world/cure Ben/close the portal to the Negative Zone. That's just who the man is. Eliminate that, and you might as well eliminate "It's clobberin' time!"

cjl | August 19, 22:30 CET

Oh, don't get me wrong, cjil, Reed is a total obsessive-compulsive genius (remind us of anyone we know?) - and I wouldn't want him any other way. And thanks for the spot-on description: I omitted the world-saving and Neg Zone stuff ;).

I was really trying to express my amazement at some of Stan Lee's more overtly-sexist lines. Still, I continue to love the classic FF - nobody could draw space and alternate dimensions like Kirby could. But nobody.

Thanks all for the info that it'll be an Ultimate movie. I've actually not looked at Ult FF, although I have a sort of guilty fondness for Ultimate Spidey, Ultimate X-Men, and, well, the Ultimates. Is Ultimate FF better or worse than the others?

Simon, I didn't get your Secret Wars 2 ref: wasn't Sue Storm always the Invisible Girl (I mean from FF#1 onwards?) Did something else happen to her in SW2 that gave her different powers? Clearly, a 10-year break from comics is not working for me here . . .

SoddingNancyTribe | August 19, 22:43 CET

From what I can remember she was the Invisible Girl and then some villain made her evil and she eventually got turned back to normal. And there was a quest to find the villain, and she tortured/killed him and then she made a speech saying she was "now the Invisible Woman".

Apologies for the rambling but I havent read that issue in about 18 years.

Simon | August 19, 22:59 CET

So Doctor Troy is going to be Doctor Doom, eh?

Anybody else see that he is also being considered for the new James Bond? Saw it in one of the crawlers on CNN a couple of days ago.

palehorse | August 19, 23:08 CET

I may be the only person who remembers/knows him as Ian Rain from Another World.....

Hmm...Ian Rain, Ethan Rayne....is Joss a closet soap opera fan???

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2004-08-19 21:10 ]

Rogue Slayer | August 19, 23:09 CET

Wait a minute.. isn't there already a Batman Begins Sequel involving The Joker? I could have sworn it was called Batman, the FIRST movie!

Christopher | August 19, 23:29 CET

Batman Begins is a reboot of the Batman film franchise, Christopher. Its continuity isn't connected to the campy films of the last decade. You might see some of the already used villains in sequels to it such as Riddler and Joker.

eddy | August 19, 23:52 CET

And there was a quest to find the villain, and she tortured/killed him and then she made a speech saying she was "now the Invisible Woman".

Aha, I knew there was a reason I've been dragging the ol' collection of comics around. Your memory is sharp, Simon-- I had to go through a number of FF issues, but found the storyline: After Psycho-man twists Sue Richards into "Malice, Mistress of Hate" (280-281) -- the Four travel to the Microverse, where Sue confronts the villian in #284. Now that I'm reading it again, I wonder how John Byrne got such a reputation for scintillating writing.

Sue: You defiled me, Psycho-man. And now you are going to be punished.
Psycho-Man: You... you are going to k-kill me?
Sue: I could, Psycho-Man. Lord knows I want to. But that would put me even below your level. No, Psycho-Man, I'm going to pay you back in kind!!

later:
Sue: The Psycho-Man is no longer any threat to us. He won't bother anyone... Ever again.
...
Then Sue has some long speechifying about growing up and losing "child-like naivety."

Sue: There is no Invisible Girl anymore, Reed. She died when the Psycho-Man twisted her soul. From now on, I am the Invisible Woman!

Ok, so it's a bit of a stretch to say maturing a character from "girl" to "woman" requires being soul-twisted, but there you go. By the way, thanks, I hadn't looked at that in like 18 years either!

Whedonage | August 20, 00:15 CET

Wow, great recitation, SaveAngel! Although I never read that one, I feel like I'm right there with you . . . Truth be told, I never loved Byrne as a writer. "Alpha Flight", for example, was pretty thin plot- and characterization-wise, and those were some great characters. But Byrne the artist in the X-Men heyday? The Savage Land, Dark Phoenix, Mutant X, "Days of Future Past" - unbeatable. Whatever revisionists now say about Chris Claremont's abilities, those stories were my first geek love.

SoddingNancyTribe | August 20, 00:41 CET

Sue's "Malice" alter-ego. Oy. Somebody pass the barf bag.

I've never seen the need to give Sue a "dark side." To me, she's always been the most straightforward character in the group: she's the Mom. I don't mean that in any pejorative sense whatsoever. She's dedicated to the safety and well-being of her husband, brother, child (Franklin), and dear friend (Ben). By extension, she's dedicated to safeguarding the world against threats to her immediate family and the family of humankind.

She's the voice of human decency and compassion in the sometimes brutal world of superhero vs. supervillain, and (when she's written correctly) she'll speak up and speak LOUDLY when she thinks any of the guys steps over the line into morally questionable territory. She is probably the most powerful member of the FF (those invisible force blasts can STING, y'all), but she sometimes questions the use of that power. She may be in the mold of the "traditional" married woman, but she is not a simpering ninny or a trophy wife.

She might, on occasion, feel overshadowed by rocky orange mountain Ben, her hotheaded little brother, or her Nobel-level genius husband, but we all know her and love her as the First Lady of the Marvel Universe. She is her own woman.

And, not incidentally, when she's drawn correctly, she is smokin' hot.

This isn't really relevant to the Alexis conversation, and I doubt any of the traditional FF Sue is going to be in the Jessica Alba version, but I just wanted to rant about Byrne's juvenile idea of "character" development.

"Malice." Pffft.

cjl | August 20, 00:51 CET

Cheers for that SaveAngel I appreciate you looking it up, I tried doing a search on google but came up with nothing.

Simon | August 20, 00:59 CET

The funny part about brazilian translated FF, it was that Sue was never Invisible "Girl", her codename was always translated to Invisible WOMAN, even back in the old days when the publishers translated everything (Clark Kent wasn't Clark Kent, Lois Lane wasn't Lois Lane).

Don't know how that name changing story fared in the translated version, never was a really avid marvel reader (for the exception of anything X-Men related), specially back then when I only read translated books.

Numfar PTB | August 20, 01:04 CET

Yeah I remember the Byrne Psycho Man story. I remember Reed figuring out Malice was Sue thanks to Daredevil's radar sight. Funny stuff. Those were good FF days. I have to say I think Byrne's run on the FF was the one I enjoyed the most. Apart from X-Men I think it's his best stuff.

And really, Byrne's story did finally let Sue grow up. It was definitely her 'empowerment' (oh how I hate that word after years of use, abuse and overuse but can't think of another one) story. They finally acknowledged that with her forcefields, she was probably the most powerful one of the bunch, yet for decades she mostly had to be rescued.

And yeah it's very tangible in Stan Lee's stories that we only just left the 50's. Although he did give her the forcefield power, acknowledging she was kinda dead weight with her power as it was.

I don't think it was ever said Reed was 30 years older though. I alwas figured her in her mid twenties (don't forget, Johnny was her younger brother) and Reed around 40 or something. But Byrne made a good point in the same Psycho story (as she's being tortured/brainwashed with illusions) that the age difference was an issue sometimes. It was the days when these things got addressed.

And the Ultimate line...pff, at first movies are based on comics, then they make comics that imitate the movies. Then comics that are pre-rearranged to fit movies. I don't necessarily think making Reed younger and giving him a hipper 'do' suddenly makes him a cooler character. FF has been around for 40 years, being the start of Marvel. Ultimate FF has barely popped up, but somehow that's what we're gonna go for. Blah.

Most of the Ultimate Lines feel to me like retellings of stories that I don't need to see retold. But then I'm an old geezer. As I type this I'm sitting on a park bench, shaking my cane at young rapscallions and their stupid music....

EdDantes | August 20, 02:35 CET

I figured their ages about the same, EdDantes. Reed could have been younger based on looks alone - hey, I've got the trademark RR graying temples, and I'm only 34 - but his reputation, knowledge, and *presence* suggested a man in his 40s.

But you know, I enjoy the Ultimate series. I never thought of them before as being "pre-arranged to fit movies", although I see some truth in that. I see them more as being inspired by Marvel but tipping a cap to the growing influence of Manga and other sources. The illustration is definitely very much a blend of those things. And I think they just meet a niche for fun light stuff - plotlines are quickly wrapped up, characters don't get too deep - making them good for reading on the bus, etc., much in the way that comics are consumed in Japan.

And I think it works particularly well when the heros involved are themselves teens, such as Peter Parker, or the X-Men. Haven't seen the Ult FF, as I said, so can't comment on the success of that one. If you're able to wipe the first "telling" of the stories from your mind, the way Ult Spiderman dealt with the Green Goblin origin, for example, was pretty impressive to me.

SoddingNancyTribe | August 20, 02:48 CET

"If you're able to wipe the first "telling" of the stories from your mind, the way Ult Spiderman dealt with the Green Goblin origin, for example, was pretty impressive to me."

Well that's the thing, I can't really erase the old stuff from my mind. I wish they'd just go with totally new characters then. UltFF is written by Warren Ellis right now so it's probably good, but I just never like the 'it's the same old characters but not really' stories. That whole 'Heroes Reborn' thing marvel did never worked for me either.

For a movie I can handle it, because it has to be reinvented for a new medium a little. But in the comics themselves I just don't need all the updating for the current teenagers. I like that Peter Parker is not a teen anymore but a guy with a job. I read about him as a schoolgoing guy when I was one myself, and it all grew with me.

If I read Ultimate Spiderman, it all just feels like one big 'What If' issue. It's just not the Peter I know. Just set in my ways I guess. Either give me original continuity, or give me something really new.

Same with Manga. I've read some Manga, and there's some really good stuff out there along with some achingly bad like everything else. But the 'Amerimanga' just doesn't appeal to me. Either be Manga and go for it, or just be american comics. The tendency to give american-style art bug eyes, grass blades for hair and zits for noses to appeal to the manga crowd just bugs me.

If they do a completely Manga version of Spidey or the X-Men, okay. I can choose to read that or not. But stop 'manga-fying' stuff that isn't really manga. It just reeks of fad-opportunism to me.

EdDantes | August 20, 04:11 CET

Fair dos, EdD.

Funny thing is, the one comic book that I don't want to read or see, is Buffy. (I hesitated to post that opinion on the other thread re Season 8 books cos I don't like to drag a discussion down.) I think I'm just too emotionally invested in BtVS and Ats as moving pictures (which is why an animated series would *probably* be OK, although even with that I have some reservations): living, breathing, dynamic characters with music and laughter etc. Don't get me wrong: I love to read, and I love to read comic books in particular. And I've got "Tales of the Slayers" and "Fray" and enjoyed them hugely. But I don't read Buffy novels, I don't read fanfic, and I wouldn't read a comic book. For me, that's just not Buffy. I know I'm limiting myself, maybe unreasonably, but that's where I draw the line. I don't think I'd read a Firefly comic either. Everything that isn't *those actors* is too distracting for me. Give me celluloid (OK, or digital) or give me nada.

SoddingNancyTribe | August 20, 04:25 CET

SoddingNancy,
If you already picked up Tales of The Slayer and Fray, you should try some of the trades, or maybe the strictly graphic novels, like Creatures of Habit or Ring Of Fire(which Petrie wrote.)

Sample, and if you dig them, hey, it's stuff you're not getting now in any form.

jack knight | August 20, 05:28 CET

Well SNT I understand what you mean, and I'd definitely prefer a movie or tv thing for Buffyverse continuation. But no, if comics is all there is I'll take it. I'm that desperate.

But as I said in the other thread I would hope for a better artist than they usually had. And I would hope Joss or other Buffy scribes would be doing the actual writing like with ToTS/ToTV and Fray. If it's some comic guy and doesn't involve Joss directly, it's pretty much fanfic to me anyway.

Oh and I have read fanfic and some novels. (Not so much lately). And I have to say, if you know where to find it, some fanfic can be far better than the novels in terms of characterization. Really, some of the novels are ver, very crappy. Often completely all over the place in terms of continuity as well and since Joss has no clue about them, they're an also official form of fanfic for me. And often with so many spelling and/grammar errors that I wonder if they are even edited. But then they toss Buffy novels in the 'youth' section with the Hilary Duff crap so I've often felt the people in charge of novels don't really get it.

EdDantes | August 20, 07:21 CET