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"I mean, you can dry clean till judgment day, you are living with those stains."
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August 29 2004

Canceled shows: The dearly, or merely, departed. Seattle Times categorizes shows this season which were killed before their time, outstayed their welcome or didn't have an audience.

There really isn't any category for the "cut tragically short" only the "limited value of a fan campaign" which I don't think is very flattering toward Angel. I don't think I like this article very much... It is good to see that it got mentioned... I just wish it was in a better light.
Internet fan campaigns would be more effective if they weren't done for *every* genre show that gets sacked.
We'd have some more cred if we formed "Save Our (name of reality show here)" teams every season, then took the credit when networks renewed their bottom-feeding reality show.

Or maybe we'd tap into some reverse psychology?
I think what the article was getting at with the "limited value of a fan campaign" comment was simply the truth that has been made very clear to us all this year.

That the networks could not care less about dedicated fanbases if they don't fit with their current audience ideals or are financially attractive. Basically that fans only matter when they watch what is cost effective.
I don't think "Angel" was necessarily portrayed in a bad light, simply that even a dedicated fanbase cannot save a show the suits have decided has had its time.

Sadly, we'll never convince anyone that "Angel" was, as you say, tragically cut short - it did get five full seasons, which is a helluva lot more than some shows get. I do think it's interesting, however, that when "Friends" and "Frasier" ended, few people were clamouring for their return. They may have been "the few, the proud" but they were also the "should have ended four years earlier than they did."

Better to go out leaving people wanting more than to go out with people glad to see the back of you.
Outsider, with Friends and Frasier the fans knew that the cast and crew were all ready to finish things and so there was no reason to fight.

As far as i was concerned with trying to save Angel it was as much about stopping the injustice of what the WB was doing to Joss and everyone involved (fans included) as it was about the show continuing. I enjoyed Friends right until the end but knowing that everyone there was ready to move on i was satisfied to let it end too.

However i do agree that i would rather Angel ended when it did then go on for too long. Five strong seasons is a lot better than nine with the last four gradually getting weaker. ***cough***X-Files***cough***

I just wish that there had been a new slayerverse series already on the go to replace it though.
Neopagan I'd be afraid of the "corporatization" of the 'verse. At some point, the already exhausted Joss would have needed a break. I think what you're talking about is kind of like what happened with the poor Star Trek franchise. Next Gen ended, DS9 was there. DS9 ended, Voyager was there, Voyager ended, Enterprise was there. There was some overlap but you get my gist. Quality was slowly leeched out in favor of desperation to keep the franchise alive. Like a xerox copy that fades with every print.

Anyway, at some point, Joss would've had to turn things over to people who maybe weren't as invested in the verse as his usual gang (writers and producers, not talking about the actors here), especially with them going off to do other tv. I always was afraid of that happening. Diluting the quality just to put something out there to keep the money rolling in. *shudder*

I really don't think that will ever happen, especially with our Mr. Whedon in charge, but it's something I have thought about on occasion.
I don't think a Joss show would ever go on for too long, he'd know to end it before it got to that point (no, I don't think Buffy should have ended after season 5), after season 7 I was sad to see it go, but it was eassier to accept because it was the show's time, Angel on the other hand had at least another year in it.

Though there are many "save*insert show name*.com"'s these days, few are run well, the Farscape campaign is probably what all of them should aspire to, it was well organised and it kept fighting well after the show had ended, and they eventually got what they wanted, yet they keep fighting, with good reason, with good ratings in a eight weeks, next year could see the long awaited season 5. The Angel campaign was also well run, yet seemed to stop after the series finale aired, probably because, unlike Farscape the star of the show has stated time and again that he has no interest in returning for a season 6, judging by his comments it's very possible we wouldn't have gotten a season 6 even if the WB had wanted one, in that case though, I believe the show would have been rejigged to make Spike the central character. Maybe Wonderfalls hadnt been going long enough for a fan campaign to work, but at least we got the DVDs. The online petitions serve no-purpose, because there are so many of them, there's even a Sabrina one thats been set up in recent months (a year after the show ended) believing that 1000 signatures (it may have been 10'000) will get the WB to pick up a new season.

I'm sure I had a point somewhere in there.

I liked Friends and Frasier to the end, with both shows people just seemed to say, "it's not as good as it used to be" it seems that when a show reaches a certain age, people start saying that, even if it is still as good. People fault the shows for pairing up central characters, that Chandler and Niles weren't as funny after they hooked up with Monica and Daphne, that's called character-development.
Re the pairing of characters in shows like Friends and Fraiser, one the the reasons it's unpoplar in tv is that it severely restricts the writers. You can't have married characters break up every week, and so all their actions have to be as a couple. Sadly, those writers don't have the option available to a Whedonverse writer, they can't kill the love interest or turn him or her into a demon.
Friends and Frasier had definitely overstayed their welcome, IMO. The ridiculous stretching out of the Ross/Rachel thing on Friends was absolutely intolerable by the end, which was exacerbated by the fact that at least twice Friends was gonna be over, so the writers started tying storylines up, but then the stars agreed to do "one more season." So the writers had to scramble to somehow prolong the storylines. I watched the series finale of both shows, and I laughed far less than I did during "Not Fade Away". (Which, while large with the funny as Whedonverse shows usually are, was not exactly a comedic episode.)
Actually, I personally enjoyed the later seasons of Friends alot more than I did the early ones.
Willowy, i'm totally with you as far as not wanting to see the slayerverse go the way of Trek. The last Trek i really enjoyed was DS9, since then they have really worn the franchise out. Both Voyager and Enterprise had brilliant basic concepts (lost in the Delta Quadrant and filling in the gaps of the 22nd century) but were ruined by a creative team not actually being creative at all and rehashing old scripts and plots.

I'd hate to see that happen to the slayerverse but, as Ghost Spike says, Joss would end the shows himself before that happened. Personally i only want one further series to happen, preferably with Spike in the lead role, and then call it a day.

Three television series, with a few telemovies, the animated series and a big screen trilogy would be ideal in my opinion. No asking much am i! :)
I suppose I can see that it did get a lot of time on the air, but I also see that it was cut short of a truly powerful ending as was the case of Buffy's Ending which Joss had adequate time to prepare for. I didn't really get the reference to the fandoms not having power that the article presented... so thanks for pointing that out... Although I do see that point now, I still believe Angel was cut tragically short, because it was a Slayerverse show that hadn't completely filled out yet. The actors unfortunately were growing tired... and it was expensive... and stuff... but even in light of all that, a sixth season would have been the courteous way to end the series by giving it time to wrap. It seemed in the last 6 episodes, it had to pull what it could together... and that just wasn't fair to certain characters, especially the absolutely fantastic dynamic that was building between Wesley and Illyria... Nevermind... I've rambled far too long. My whole point in writing my original post was the thought that in this particular article, Angel appeared to be an afterthought, and deserved more regard... but Joss's shows are always overlooked by everyone but the fans... so why am I not used to it? I don't know...
Had everyone known at the beginning of s5 that this was definitely the last season, and had the writers been able to tie things up, I don't think I would have been half as upset with the cancellation of Angel as I was. After all, as many have said, it did get 5 years -- and it is doing well in repeats -- so it is getting some of the respect it was due (although the lack of Emmy nominations is still a sore point). As it was, I would have liked one more season -- or even a half-season -- just to tie things up. Partly because I am a chronic pessimist, I'm not holding out too much hope for movies, either tele- or big screen. I would like to see another series -- it's the week-to-week fix that I enjoy and look forward to. But I'm with the rest of you in not wanting to see the Buffy-/Angelverse extended for the sake of commerce alone, like the Star Trek franchise (or, today, in the endless spinoffs of L&O and CSI). But, what was really appealing about Buffy and Angel to me were the risks taken -- and in today's climate, I don't think Joss could get away with the darkness of either series, and I question whether he would be allowed to experiment in another series, unless it were on HBO or some other cable network. Frankly, I'll follow whatever Joss does, because it will never be a waste of my time.

I think I'm rambling -- but, let me add that I, too, would have liked to see Angel treated better in this article than merely the object of a failed Internet campaign. The show was so much better than the other shows in this "category," that it is something of a double insult.
Aw, Jake 2.0 gets so little recognization. "Never had much appeal"...Columnist probably only watched the first couple episodes.
PMMJ - Great comment. I immedaitly thought of the Save Birds Of Prey campaign a couple of years ago which, to be honest, I found frightening on both a moral & aesthetic level.
I'm currently admiring the cheek of the Don't Save Our Show campaign to get West Wing off the air.
That's great, Simon. I used to watch West Wing almost as religiously as Angel. But when Sorkin left, I really couldn't bear to watch it. I love the spin on the internet campaigns here. A different way to save quality television.
I really liked Wanda at Large, I didn't consider it "comatose comedy"

Fraiser...yeah, it was time for it to go. By the end, all the characters were doing was running arround having Three's Company type misunderstandings.

Friends, it was also time. And even though the Ross/Rachel stringout was really annoying, after that many years if they hadnt gotten together in some corny way I would've felt it made for great sketches on SNL

Angel was NOT time, which is why I thank God for fanfiction since unless DB signs on for a TV movie or a direct to DVD release, fanfic is all I have
If I may take a turn with the curmudgeon hat for a moment: by my lights, they could have cancelled "Friends" after Season One. But seeing as I have pals who have enjoyed it, I would have settled for, say, 3 seasons so that all the possible bloody permutations could have been played out thoroughly. Instead, we ended up with a show that is now spoken of in quasi-mythic terms. In a universe where "Firefly" gets less than half a season, well, something's just not right.

And speaking of the X-Files, as someone did, I just watched a bunch of episodes from Seasons 1 and 2 for the first time in probably 7 or 8 years (in other words, for the first time since BtVS et al.). While a certain grandeur and power remains in the idea and in some of the developments, I was quite shocked at how stilted and formulaic the scripts now appear, and how relatively little the show now affects me. And these were some episodes that I remember really liking, like "Beyond the Sea".

Spoiled, spoiled, spoiled by Joss and his compadres.
"Life with Bonnie" had an internet fan campaign?
SoddingNancyTribe, have to agree as far as The X-Files not holding up too well over the years in concerned.

Having recently had the chance to catch some early episodes on FX here in the UK i have to amit that i wasn't as enthralled as i used to be. There is definately still a high quality there, certainly it was the best of it's era, but compared to shows like Buffy and Angel it is severely lacking.

Character development is important to me, something the slayerverse has in bucket loads, and so watching Scully hit the reset button each episode as far as believing in anything paranormal is concerned despite having been proven wrong week after week is annoying. I know this was her character but how incredibly dumb would you have to be to argue all the time with a man who always figures out what is happening way before you do! :)

Nope, like you, totally spoiled by Joss!
The real difficulty with the end of Angel was that the show did have time to try and wrap things up to a satisfying conclusion, but that Joss decided the (don't-call-it-a) cliffhanger was the better way to go. I'm certainly not the guy to question The Whedon, but he could have ended it differently had he so chosen.

Compare this to Farscape, which was cancelled mere days before the end of filming on the final episode, too late to change the definite cliffhanger that ended that show.

Ultimately it's all a moot point, of course. The show is gone and I, sadly, doubt it will return. A Spike show is a possibility, but I feel it would just cover old ground. I have faith in Joss, but even he must know that he spent five years telling stories about a vampire with a soul. James Marsters notwithstanding, it wouldn't be all that different from Angel.

Oh, and I'm sorry, but no one will ever convince me that Friends, Frasier, or The X-Files all didn't drop in quality the longer they were on the air. That's not to say that they weren't any good, simply that they weren't as good as they used to be. The dragging-out of the Ross/Rachel relationship (and the Mulder/Scully one) was lazy, cynical writing at its worst - a tenuous hook designed to keep those loyal viewers who'd stuck with the show from the beginning. Compared to Joss' infinitely more mature way of dealing with relationships (in particular Buffy/Angel, Xander/Anya, and Willow/Tara)... well, there is no comparison.
Outsider, got to argue your point about a show about Spike being too similar to Angel.

Beyond them both being vampires with souls there is very little that they share in personality and motivation. Spike's journey, and therefore his potential series, would not be the same as Angel's has been. The group of allies he would inevitably gather aound him would also be different to Team Angel, not to mention the base of operations that they would end up in.

A Spike show would be so much more than "another vampire with a soul" show but even when boiled down to that one point you still have a very different character dealing with his soul in a very different way.

Spike isn't Angel and the show could be a completely different animal to what we saw on Angel the Series.
In the case of Wonderfalls, the studio asked for the online petition in order to prove there was a market for the DVDs.
Neopagan, I hear what you're saying, and believe it or not I do agree with you up to a point. But changing the supporting characters and the locations of the show isn't enough for me. And whilst it may be true that a Spike-centred show would tread a different path than Angel, I still don't quite see that the show would be significantly different than what's come before - and that includes both Buffy and Angel. There are only so many times you can create a show set around a super-powered character who slays demons before you end up repeating yourself. Star Trek has been mentioned in this thread, and that's the perfect example - with the exception of DS9, EVERY Trek has been about a ship of explorers in the future. And despite differences in the basic set-up of each show, they have all, eventually, become samey and repetitive.

Now, I know Joss would wield more individual control over the quality of his shows, but it would have to be a major re-vamp (sorry!) in order to make sure that the concept stayed fresh. If he could do that, then I'd be on board. But I would rather the Buffyverse stay closed than to end up like Joe Straczynski and Babylon 5 - as talented as he is, and as good as the original show was, every time he's tried to re-start the franchise, it's failed because it just wasn't offering anything completely new.

Of course, the danger is that in offering something completely different, the original fanbase may not accept it.
For me, Spike`s Journey was completed in Chosen.
If they want to do something new, i will choose Faith (i know, there is Tru). It`s the only unexplored (partially) character (and Illyria).
Anyways, how can they continue the recent Buffyverse, with the events told in Fray? All evil finished after Chosen.
Oh i think that the slayerverse has more than enough potential for at least one more series. There are a lot of areas that have barely been touched upon that could be dealt with in the new show, be it Spike as the lead or anyone else for that matter.

The newly turned slayers and how their existence has tipped the scales in the good versus evil balance, the new Watcher's Council, the Initiative's history, the Old Ones (preferably due to Illyria being a part of any future series), the ongoing apocalypse that Wolfram and Hart have had brewing for hundreds of years, The ninja cyborg demon hunters and the organisation that created them.

Basically a wealth of areas still to explore not to mention a whole new bunch of stuff still developing in the heads of the Mutant Enemy writers.

I'm totally with you in that there needs to be an end but two series is not enough in my mind. To further your Trek comparison, had they ended that franchise after two shows we never would have been able to watch the greatest Trek ever, Deep Space 9. Okay, they really should have at taken a break there but you get my point ;)

All the series set in the slayerverse are going to be superficially about killing demons, however it is the depth of character and storylines that made Buffy and Angel so good, not the actual demon killing. As long as Joss and the others at ME continue to write brilliant characters then i'll be onboard for the ride.

"Anyways, how can they continue the recent Buffyverse, with the events told in Fray? All evil finished after Chosen."

Angel The Vampire, i'm not sure what you mean by that. The fifth season of Angel was set after Chosen so obviously there is still evil around.
Angel The Vampire, you are assuming that the reference in Fray to a Slayer banishing demons for hundreds of years was referring to the events in Chosen, and apparently it wasn't since hey-demons still around after that on Angel.
It's been discussed on various boards since Fray came out how Joss inadvertantly muddied some of its future storyline with the events in 'Chosen'. He has mentioned in at least one interview I've read that it's something he's going to have to address should he return to the Buffy-verse.

The incongruity is this. It's presumed by many that the Slayer shown silhouetted in Fray who shut the door on all extra-dimensional magick in our world and set the stage for a demonless future (until Melaka stepped up to her birthright several hundred years later and recognized what had been slowly developing around her all her life, anyway) was Buffy, but based on what happened in 'Chosen', all evil wasn't eradicated from this dimension and all doors shut, only the one doorway (the largest, maybe, since it was 'the' Hellmouth) was. So, following 'Chosen's events and the transference of Slayer power to all Potentials, the timeline has been altered to blur the 'one Slayer' concept, at least for now.

Since it's Joss's universe, it's Joss's headache. I'm sure he'll think of something to fix it. Or something else entirely. ;)
Nice summation, Wiseblood. In agreement with what Angel The Vampire posted, I'd rather blithely assumed from "Fray" that Buffy had indeed nixed the dark forces (although I didn't necessarily think that it was the event in "Chosen" that did it). Of course, AtS S5 put an end to that speculation. (Although not necessarily to the fact that it is *Buffy* who ultimately does the good deed . . . )

What you said about *The* Hellmouth makes me ask, what's the situation with the Cleveland hellmouth? References to that always slightly bugged me, because BtVS was Sunnydale-centric, so nothing important could possibly be happening elsewhere, ;), because how many apocalypses can be going on at one time anyway, and because, it goes without saying, if there's only one Slayer, she can't be in two places at once. Seems like evil wasn't playing fair with the two-against-one deal.

So what's the status of Cleveland? Lesser hellmouth, some other kind of portal?

Once again my research reveals that this subject has been touched on by, amongst others, ZachsMind (archives, Aug 17, 2003), but I wonder if any of us newer members have thoughts?
As Far as the Cleveland hellmouth goes I've always thought of the hellmouth to be something like a volcano, some are more active (sunnydale pre-chosen), some lay dormant for hundreds of years (Cleveland, sunnydale pre-welcome to the hellmouth) and some have died (sunnydale post-chosen). I'm sure Cleveland Still has I higher than normal demon population and the occasional psycho robot but that doesn't mean that Springtime in Cleveland equals blooming flowers, melting snow, singing birds and the end of the world. Besides Sunnydale was around for 96 years before buffy, Yet the world Kept spinning.
As far as the 'verse ending up like Trek I honestly don't think that would happen. I Agree with Outsider In that Berman and Braga have refused to do anything Really different With the franchise (With exception to DS9 and last season of enterprise) That It became stale. I can't see Joss Doing that, Angel was a totally different animal than Buffy. The only thing a new spin-off would share is the basic mythology, but I'm sure the style and the subject matter would be It's own.
Regarding the continuity "problem" between Buffy and Fray. I really don't see the issue here. For a start, clearly the closing of the Sunnydale hellmouth was not the blocking of supernatural beings and energy from our reality referred to in Fray, proven by season 5 of Angel as has been previously stated.

Now i'm uncertain if there is a specific time setting for Fray but it is obviously hundreds of years after the current slayerverse adventures. Therefore there is no reason to assume it was Buffy who had anything to do with it at all, in fact she may have been long dead before the demons were blocked from our world.

Also between the events of Chosen and this future event it is possible something could have happened to restore the slayer line to a single girl per generation. For that matter wouldn't the very act of blocking mystical energy from our reality result in all the slayers reverting to normal?

To be fair i haven't read Fray but from what i've read here it doesn't seem so much like the continuity has been muddled, more that it just hasn't been clarified yet.
I haven't gotten around to reading Fray yet, but Iíll just agree with whatís been said here, that this end-of-evil thing happens after our people have died. As for this Cleveland business, I tell myself that the only true hellmouth is in Sunnydale, and maybe there's a secret one in L.A. Everything happens there. Sure, there are demons and vamps all over, but not as many, and when they want to do something like end the world, they go to California. I think Joss was just trying to go for the joke in Chosen as well, because in The Wish Giles quote was something like "I know there is a lot of demonic activity in Cleveland, but there happens to be a hellmouth in Sunnydale." So, no hellmouth in Cleveland.
"Then, in the twenty-first century there was a battle. A Slayer, possibly with some mystical allies faced an apocalyptic army of demons. And when it was done, they were all gone. All demons, all magicks, banished from this dimension. It is not known if the Slayer lived, but the demons being gone, she was the last to be called. The line did continue, there were girls with the power, but they were never called, never trained."

Okay, been doing a little Fray research and found a site belonging to a guy who seems to know his Fray lore. The above quote is from there. This new information has given me a better idea of how things could now play out.

My take based on this is that the battle that results in the demons and magicks being banished from our reality will be the end result of the apocalypse that Wolfram and Hart are currently arranging.

The slayer most likely will end up being Buffy along with her "mystical allies" and whatever happens to cause the blocking of the magicks will also restore the slayerline.

My theory goes like this. Somewhere in the near future the Senior Partners put the end game of their apocalypse into fruition. Buffy, Angel, Spike et al will battle against them and finally win by severing the connection between earth and the demon dimensions. The method by which they achieve this results in Buffy's death which triggers a massive backlash throughout the slayers around the world. Buffy being the original slayer of all the current ones was the anchor through which they were all connected to the power. With her death the connection is lost leaving Faith as the only living slayer (her being a part of the true line) and the line continuing through her but no longer having any real calling as the demons are now gone.

Two hundred years later, you get Fray.

I think that covers all the continuity glitches and also would make one hell of a basic plot for a Buffy/Angel big screen movie trilogy.

Joss, if you read that feel free to use whatever you like, hehe.
I think Fray takes place in 2600. I don't want Buffy to die again. I'm tired of seeing her die. But your scenario does work, Neopagan. It would make an interesting mini-series/comic book/movie trilogy. I just don't want Buffy to die again!
I said that about Fray and the last Slayer, assuming it was Buffy in Chosen. I know the events in Angel S5, but it wasn`t an apocalypsis, no? I mean, all the demons sent in NFA were sent to kill the Fang Gang, not to destroy the world. I`m wrong?
In Fray (i think) they said Evil doesn`t disappear immediately, so... The Black Thorn, W&H and all the stuff can be the last actions of Evil, but not an apocalypsis.

And about the "new" Hellmouth in Cleveland, it could be inactive.

Interesting theory, The Neopagan.
It`s only i assume the "end of the world" and the last big battle was in Chosen, with The First Evil as the really Big Bad. In fact, "he" is the First, the source of all evil. I see W&H more like the mafia of all the demons and evil :p , not as an entity that want to destroy the world. So... said that the apparently last battle again evil was in Chosen, and now said, : No, the last will be the one we will tell in cinemas. Seems a little repetitive for me.

Sorry for mi english. I wish all of you can understand what i mean :p
Angel The Vampire, i can see where you are coming from but i promise you that the closing of the Sunnydale hellmouth was definately not the same thing as the apocalyptic battle that will eventually seal off the earth from the demon dimensions.

When that battle happens it will be final and absolute with no further contact between realms for a couple of hundred years.

Trust me, it hasn't happened yet! ;)
Neopagan - Just read your idea for how the verse works itself out. I have to say that it's really quite good.
One comment on the end of Angel. Someone pointed out that David B seemed all too ready to accept the end of it and move on. But in conversation with Mercedes McNab this past weekend (doesn't that make it sound as though we are pals? :-) )she said that just around the 100th episode party, DB was going around the set saying "Oh yeah, we'll be picked up for next season", and wasn't upset about it. So it sounds as thought he was up for it, even if he did accept the alternative easily!
Yeah Lioness, i've always gone with the opinion that David simply wasn't going to cry no matter what the outcome was. He has always made a point of saying he went from year to year with Angel and was always ready, if it ended, to move on and find himself new work. However had season 6 been a given i seriously doubt we would have questioned whether or not he was willing to come back. He would have been there just as enthusiastic as ever before.

Unitas, thanks for that, and it only took a couple of minutes to put together, hehe.

The point being, i suppose, that if i can put a decent proposal together and sort out the problem i'm certain Joss could tie all the so called conflicting elements of Buffy/Angel and Fray together very easily.

All this Fray talk has got me wanting to give it a read finally, i'll have to get the trade ordered later today.
I loved your summation too, Neopagan, particularly the return to "one slayer" (the multi-slayer thing never went down too well with me). It seems to me that a new series could only benefit by returning to the basics and some of the major questions that were left dangling.

Lots of i's were left undotted and T' s
Were left uncrossed
But the Jossverse kept expanding
Without counting up the cost.
(Sorry--inadvertent rhyme.)

My question is: how would people feel if none of the main actors returned? A new Buffy, Angel and Spike (if Neopagan's story-line played out). It would require some pretty spectactular acting on their part to make me forget the old actors who played the characters.

Damned Spot
I wouldn't worry about that Damned Spot because i'm certain Joss would never recast characters as iconic as Buffy, Angel or Spike. In fact i cannot imagine him recasting any of the main characters, even the minor ones would be doubtful.

Personally i would not choose to do so either. As much as i want to see a continuation of the story it would be preferable, to me at least, to end things with Not Fade Away rather than turn the show into something we don't recognise.

Sarah is Buffy, David is Angel and James is Spike. Thankfully Joss knows that as well as we do.
Good thoughts on tying up 'Chosen' with Fray, The Neopagan, but there's the little issue of what would happen to Angel and Spike when magick was banished.

Since both of them have human souls, I have supposed when that the Slayer (whoever it turns out to be) closes the dimensional doorway in the final battle that Angel and Spike, as supernatural beings deriving their animation from that very magick, would also be affected somehow. Yet they both have human souls, complicating things enormously; where other vampires would probably dust instantly or otherwise dissipate, would they share the same fate?

Perhaps this is how the RL issue of aging for both actors can be surmounted through storytelling: By having them surviving until the end of the apocalypse (so their strength is used to maximum benefit in the battle), and then shedding their vampire natures as the dimension closes and becoming fully human? It deprives us of both characters as demons, but it does fit logically with all magick leaving this dimension (unless, of course, both of them die before this point -- perish the thought!).

I'm sure there's alternative ways they can survive as vampires after magick leaves the world. Trouble is, all the ones I can think of somehow involve supernatural means.
I actually did consider the fates of Angel and Spike should this come to pass Wiseblood.

The way i see it is that the Shanshu prophecy would very likely be linked to this ultimate battle (as this would for all intents and purposes end the fight between good and evil for a couple of hundred years) and therefore the eradication of magicks may well be the process by which one of them becomes human. Whilst regular vampires would turn to dust as they no longer have anything to keep them together both Angel and Spike have their souls as you mentioned yourself.

However the prophecy was about just one vampire and seeing as how Angel is meant to have signed away any claim he has on the Shanshu that would mean Spike is the one to get to live again.

The possibility would be that Angel sacrifices himself along with Buffy or maybe even ends up trapped in a demon dimension himself. This is only guess work obviously but it does make sense.

Just a thought but does the fact that Angel signed away the Shanshu now mean that the dimensional destablisation that began in Destiny is no longer a problem? Spike is now the only vampire that the prophecy could relate to therefore solving the problem surely?
I've also considered the Shanshu prophecy re: Angel and Spike, but it's a magickal document itself, isn't it, judging by the fact that Wesley's ability to read words from it allowed Cordelia to be freed from the magickal permanent vision Vocah inflicted on her in 'To Shanshu...'? It seems to me it would be rendered useless along with everything else if magick left this dimension.

I agree that Angel signing away the Shanshu does indeed clear the way for Spike to become human should the prophecy come true. I would think, though, for the reason I gave above, that this could only happen if the final battle/apocalypse in which magick was banished didn't happen first. Otherwise, Shanshu moot, along with everything else that is magickally-based in the world. (And this is assuming the Shanshu itself isn't just something cooked up by less ethically-concerned elements of the PTB to keep Angel motivated in the early days of his fight, before he found it in himself to fight without the hope for personal redemption -- W&H (*) was all too eager to twist the prophecy to prod Angel's core insecurity about his motives for doing good, and keep Spike and Angel at one another's throats, but that in no way proves the prophecy itself is valid.)

It's a pretty conundrum, it is.

[Edit: (*) Sirk originally worked for W&H, as seen in 'Home', but his prophecy ruse ultimately originated courtesy of Lindsey's covert machinations. Must give evil its proper due.]

[ edited by Wiseblood on 2004-09-01 22:33 ]

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