Argh, I can't stand any article that suggests that Angel's cancellation may have been a good thing because it stopped the show from becoming stale like Buffy (I loved the last two seasons of Buffy, so I don't agree with that either), it was obvious that Angel was building up to one hell of a sixth season. A season which I feel would have probably been the final season, but (like Buffy) due to the wishes of Joss and co. rather than the network.

Ghost Spike | September 14, 20:06 CET

Yeah I was a bit irritated by that comment as well, Ghost Spike, until I noticed that the author of the article was one of the Television Without Pity founder/contributers. The idea that Buffy sucked in its final season and that it might be best that Angel was cancelled before it (rollseyes) inevitably sucked is the prevailing one among the recappers there.

I agree that Angel looked to be building into quite the interesting sixth season and that they had all sorts of ideas in play that were cut off. And I would rather the show end on its own terms than get cancelled. *sigh* Besides, I don't agree with the notion that it would have inevitably started sucking, or even with the notion that Buffy started sucking (though its last season had substantially more flaws than the previous ones, IMO). Seventh season Buffy still had more interesting ideas and themes and characterization (even if it was flawed in execution and plotting) than much of what's on the rest of TV, IMO. Slightly unfair statement, since I don't watch much of what's on the rest of TV, mind you, but I still think it's kind of true from what I have seen.

teenes | September 14, 20:19 CET

Angel cancellation a good thing? Sacrilege! What a vile, vile thing to say.

Calming down now...I thought this was funny:

‘JAG’ is not an offensive show, but it's not a great show, either; it's filler, the kind of thing baby-sitters watch when their charges' parents don't get cable.

I'm babysitting right now and I brought over Six Feet Under season 2 that I got from the library. I'm going to watch it when the little tike goes to bed. No Jag for me! I like the good shows.

electricspacegirl | September 14, 20:34 CET

Oh, it's that "I made Dawson bearable...I DID!" person striving for self-importance again. Question: why are they back?

[ edited by NirvanaPunk on 2004-09-15 18:13 ]

NirvanaPunk | September 14, 20:45 CET

Will no one defend Sars? Ok, I will. I don't think her snarkiness will play at a national level, but TWoP has helped me through a bad show or two (I'm looking at you, Alias) and I am a faithful reader of some recappers. Hm, OTOH they may have helped kill Wonderfalls. And fanboy emulation of TWoP style has hurt my own writing (see paranthetical above).

And I too agree that BtVS seasons 6 and 7 had merit, and maturity, and Mutant Enemy tried some daring stuff.

Ok. While not retracting my admiration for Sars and TWoP in general, I do think this was a misguided article that read more like a letter-to-the-editor. "Stuff is bad, and I object to bad. Respect my stuff!" And the Buffy swipe was just wrong.

bogu_salias | September 14, 21:22 CET

bogu_salias, how did TWoP possibly help kill Wonderfalls?

electricspacegirl | September 14, 21:29 CET

To be clear, I'm a regular TWoP poster, and not actually trying to bash the site or the people who run it. Merely mentioning that the writer of this article/the people on her site are known for having this particular POV about Buffy's later seasons.

teenes | September 14, 22:24 CET

Haven't read this article yet... can't stand Television Without Pity... and agree that suggesting 'Angel' SHOULD have been cancelled is ridiculous...

However I just can't resist the opportunity to say that the last two seasons of 'Buffy' DID, in fact, suck ass! Some good (even GREAT) episodes aside, the overall feel of most of Season Six and practically ALL of Season Seven was something along the lines of what point is there in having a dead horse if someone isn't going to beat the sh*t out of it?

To summarize, 'Angel' Season Five = Awesome! 'Angel' Season Six = Potential awesomeness! 'Buffy' Seasons Six and Seven = Balls.

Haunt | September 14, 22:39 CET

electricspacegirl, as I understand the story, Pamie (the Wonderfalls recapper) was underwhelmed by the show and groused about its reputation versus what she was watching, and how she didn't really like the original pilot.

After the show was officially cancelled Tim Minear said something about "not having to read the boring TWoP recaps" anymore, and the forum postings lit up that Tim was pointing at Pamie as a non-supporter of the show who had a lot of fan influence, and who was therefore a "wonder killer" (to misquote Pamie herself).

YMMV of course, but that was the vibe I got at the time.

bogu_salias | September 14, 23:47 CET

Nirvanapunk, we've been through this before with you talking trash about other sites, other fans, etc. Now you're drifting close to that line again. When you come here, please leave whatever grudges you pick up in other communities at the door. I won't warn again, I'm bloody sick of it.

Caroline | September 15, 01:03 CET

Season six of Buffy took me at least three viewings, start to finish, to see just how brilliant that year really was. I mean seriously that was one hell of a thing to try and Mutant Enemy pulled it off with style.

Season seven may take a little longer i think. It had an absolutely amazing concept behind it but i always feel that it needed another five episodes to tell the story properly. Either that or less time wasted on pointless matters.

I'm not going to start an "i hate Kennedy" thing here, because i really don't. The relationship happened and having read what Joss had to rethink at the last minute with Amber choosing not to return i can see how it ended up looking so rushed.

However i still don't get why it was neccessary for Willow to have a new relationship that year at all. It would have made more sense in my eyes, once the Tara idea fell through, to just deal with Willow as a person for the final year and not push her into what came across as a very rushed relationship.

Again this isn't to say i disliked Kennedy herself, i just thought both characters could have been used better had their storylines not been 95% about their relationship.

The only character that was wasted more was Xander. Suddenly he too became nothing more than one half of a couple. His two main episodes that season were Beneath You (concerning his interest in Nancy) and First Date (concerning his interest in Lissa). Other than that it was all about his feelings for Anya! For those that may have forgotten Xander actually does have other character traits than "boyfriend".

Basically season seven was a great idea that fell a little short of it's true potential due to having too much to cover in 22 episodes.

As for Angel being cancelled being a good thing? Utterly ridiculous. It's kind of like saying that because i've lived a very healthy life up to being 24 that i should end my life now just in case i get ill next year. Angel was getting better and better and from everything i've read season six would have been the best season yet of either Buffy or Angel.

Angel's cancellation a good thing? Absolute nonsense!

The Watcher | September 15, 04:51 CET

Well - we all agree Angel was set up for another, possibly great, season and was canceled prematurely. People have very different opinions on the various Buffy and Angel seasons but no matter which season I choose it is better than the majority of "new" or old shows being aired.

Saying Buffy should have been canceled before season 7 (or 6) is in my opinion wrong. Each season still had some wonderful episodes and interesting messages.

I am reminded of the "Jump the Shark" website, where people post things like - Buffy should have been canceled after season 2, 3, 4 or 5 - some people posted it really wasn't a good show ever!

There are things we may not like about certian seasons and story archs. I am not a writer, I am not a philosopher, I know there are things about these shows that I don't "get" and may never get. When I read papers and web sites about the meanings of these shows I am amazed at how deep you can go and my appreciation of all the Buffy/Angel shows goes up. This is why I love Buffy/Angel - I am thankful for all the season we have, they offer more with more watchings, for me they hold up.

Passion | September 15, 08:09 CET

The article wasn't really focused on BTVS and/or AtS. It was more about why some mediocre at best shows survive and others...

In her own way the writer was saying AtS was quality programming. Not that I agree with her assesment of season 6 and 7 of BTVS. For me they were among the finest hours of the show. It takes awhile for a program to reach a certain level where they can take chances and fully explore the characters. When does it pass from a full exploration to becoming stale ? Is it possible for a show to bottom out and then come back ? These are good questions, worthy to be explored. She was right about Frasier. It came back in it's last year. I believe that if the writers haven't given up on a show and it has a strong core to begin with, it can revive. Always wondered about JAG but then again my taste in entertainment is probably not what concerns networks execs. For anyone interested in hearing what one of my favorite fictional characters has to say about TV programming exexcutives..go to http://www.buzzymultimedia.com/stores/29/libraries/interlopers/tv_programming.mp3
You have been vawrned !!

cousine | September 15, 08:36 CET

"Talking trash" implies I made up something I said and I didn't. I just used what she said about Dawson's Creek in the past the support my point that her articles (though I'll edit my post to erase the name of the board from it) are annoyingly self-serving (and it's not a "grudge" against something. Had so much been true, I would unsubscribe from the board) cause it's my opinion. It's not "trash talk", it's legitimate criticism and a bit of snark... people here do it all the time (especially for those "Joss is a homophobe" articles.). Furthermore, I don't remember "talking trash" about fans, etc.", either.


Speaking of those homophobic articles "However i still don't get why it was neccessary for Willow to have a new relationship that year at all.", it was only to subvert the lesbian cliche'.

[ edited by NirvanaPunk on 2004-09-15 18:14 ]

NirvanaPunk | September 15, 11:12 CET

You're probably right NirvanaPunk.

A shame though. The fans that really know what Whedon is about knew damn well that killing Tara was not about homophobia, just a way to get Willow to the emotional point he needed her to be.

Bringing Tara back in season seven would have been one thing as that was his intention anyway but to rewrite his plans purely to appease those that were unhappy with Tara being killed was unlike him. Joss very rarely worries about pleasing everybody anyway if he has a story he wants to tell.

I wonder what Kennedy's character would have been like if Amber had agreed to return and Kennedy hadn't been used as the new love interest.

The Watcher | September 15, 11:31 CET

You know what I'm talking about NirvanaPunk, you've been banned from posting here before and you have been ragging on TWOP mods since the very first post you made. Just try to discuss the article, not the writer of the article. As I said, this is a last warning. Any further discussion, as usual, via e-mail please.

Caroline | September 15, 12:45 CET

I`m irritated too, Ghost Spike.

Not only for Angel being cancelling for good. I really love S6 and S7 of Buffy.


Speaking of those homophobic articles "However i still don't get why it was neccessary for Willow to have a new relationship that year at all.", it was only to subvert the lesbian cliche'.

Agree. I think her relationship with Kennedy was the result of all the gays and lesbians pressure after the death of Tara. Not a natural evolution.

I like Kennedy as a overbearing (i think that is the correct word) Potential, but not as a substitute of Tara.
If he really noticed of the complaints, I`m very disappointed of him.

Angel TheVampire | September 15, 12:48 CET

Caroline, some virus has our hotmail so everytime we sign our password, it goes to some search page and a bunch of pop-ups appear and then it erases 'history', 'favorites', and the addresses on the scroll down bar. Besides, last time I emailed you (and I *did* do it, just as you requested), you acted like you have never heard of me before and didn't remember what happened, nor did you address any of the points I made but just posted the FAQ and I was quite frustrated.

As for being banned by you that time, I c&p what actually happened between I and the other poster (who was posting in the same tone as I, by the way) and sent it to another mod here via email and was let back on right away after being told to "tone it down" and continued the conversation, no harm no foul.

As for ragging on the TWoP mods "ever since (I) got here", that's because I respond to articles/opinion pieces they write when they are posted here just like everybody else. The only difference is that it's not in praise of them (which people have done in the past and was allowed). As for the content of the article, well, that's the problem: they didn't address the problems with shows per se, they just aired strong feelings about them -- without saying why 99% the time (for example, "hey, the Rachel/Joey thing was bad because...") -- based on what they felt should be done. The article essensially became all about them and I responded appropriately based on that.

SP, A tV: A mistake alot of people made when addressing the killing Tara controversy is that they overlapped the "homophobia" controversy with the lesbian cliche' because so many people were angry about it. Now saying that ME was homophobic would be just absurd, one could rebute that using simple logic. On the other hand, deliberate or not, they *did* fall into the lesbian cliche'. I mean, it's something that happens alot in pop-culture storytelling, that's why it's cliche'. However, amidst everything homophobia/lesbian cliche basically became the same thing. ME found themselves stuck in a rut, then came Kennedy.

"Agree. I think her relationship with Kennedy was the result of all the gays and lesbians pressure after the death of Tara. Not a natural evolution. I like Kennedy as a overbearing (i think that is the correct word) Potential, but not as a substitute of Tara."

Indeed. Nothing against Iyari, though, she is beyond sweet.

NirvanaPunk | September 15, 14:02 CET

NirvanaPunk, bye bye.

Caroline | September 15, 16:51 CET