Y'know, when i read an article such as this one where the writer discusses Angel in such plain terms, treating it as if it was just another television show, equally deserving of mention, i find it so hard to accept that Angel is relatively unknown to the television viewing world.

Mention Buffy and you usually get recognition of the name of the show even from those that swear they don't watch it but Angel existed under the radar of the general public. One of those shows they will maybe have noticed in the tv schedule but never taken the time to watch, especially if the dreaded term "vampire" was included in the description. A series for children on at night time? How strange!

It is such a shame that so many people missed the excellence of both Buffy and Angel because they took the general subject matter to mean that it wasn't worth their time. Their loss is also our loss too however. Had more people given it a chance and realised just how good it truly was instead of dismissing it outright we would be looking forward to the start of season six right now.

The Watcher | September 15, 20:17 CET

It's amazing how many hardcore fans I've made merely from asking someone to watch it, so many people I know just shake their head when I mention Angel, based usually on either a quick blurb about the show, or even a single episode viewed out of context.

My parents have fallen in love with Angel since I got them to sit down and watch it. They had previously seen "Inside Out" on TV and found it unpleasent, in context, when we went through season 4, they found it to be a great episode.

The only way I even got them to give the program a chance is by having my family watch Firefly, which they loved so much they had to give Angel, and then eventually Buffy a chance.

With that said, I found the series finale of Angel thematicly sound, but it left too many loose plot threads to seem like the correct narrative conclusion. I think it works as an ending, it is a great image and a good message, but there was so much left to be done.

rabid | September 15, 21:03 CET

Senior Partner said: "Their loss is also our loss too however."

Their loss is our loss? We had five great years, and seven great years of shows on Buffy. We watched it. They didn't. I don't think their loss is our loss. We came out ahead.

In fact to be honest, maybe we fans look at this from a glass is half empty perspective when we should be seeing the glass as half full. For every Joss Whedon or Chris Carter who manage to produce one or more tv series in their career, there's scores if not HUNDREDS of people with vision and ingenuity who for one reason or another just don't make it, or their pilot wasn't seen by the right people at the right time. They got no breaks. They weren't able to play the game in TV city well. There came a point when a suit told them to compromise and they just couldn't do it. They missed one deadline. They couldn't get that guy's assistant to pass the script to him. Any one of a thousand little things adding up to success.

Whedon got three tv series on the air. Whedon went the distance and he done good. Most in his position never get one on the prime time schedule.

We didn't lose. We won because he won.

ZachsMind | September 15, 22:53 CET

I can't let myself think that way ZachsMind.

Whilst i won't argue that what we got is much better than not getting anything at all i don't think you should have to appreciate getting what should be our basic right, that being quality entertainment.

As long as we are satisfied to settle for as many episodes of our favourite shows as the networks allow us then things will never get any better. There is no reason at all that Angel should have ended after five seasons other than the fact that networks will not balance quality and diversity with making as much money as possible.

Now you may say television is a business and business is money which is true. However this business is one that is based on giving the public what they want. Not just the majority of the public, ALL the public. The WB could have given Joss a sixth season, they chose not to. Not for any reasons relating to the quality of the show or because Joss or David wanted out, just because not enough people were aware of how brilliant the show was and therefore the ratings didn't make the network enough money.

We lost the chance to see another 22 episodes of Angel because too many people refused to watch it in the first place. They missed out and so we lost out.

I'm very grateful for seven seasons of Buffy and five seasons of Angel but that doesn't change the fact that had more people watched them we would have more episodes to watch this coming season.

The Watcher | September 15, 23:37 CET

I think another problem with angel and the general viewer is that some episodes are just horrid, and they're not that rare. I was a hardcore Buffy fan since day one, but avoided angel for years because I watched "Eternity" and it was just so bad. Buffy may have ad some weak episodes, but it always kept to the standarts of a far beyond average tv-show. When angel is bad, it's just baaad.

PeliG | September 15, 23:42 CET

I've been trying since 1997 to find some way to get a radio station in north Texas to play mostly local music. There's a lot of great talented people in Texas, past and present, but many independent artists can't get noticed because radio stations play crap. Why do they play crap? Because that's what the majority of avid radio listeners want. To them, what I want to listen to is crap, but that's cuz they refuse to give it a chance.

Who said it's a network's duty to give ALL the public what they want? It's a network's survival instinct to do whatever keeps the electric bill paid. They gotta keep the transmitter juiced. Everything else is secondary or worse. Believe me, they'll please their advertisers and a number of other interests before they actively try to please you and me. I don't think it was just a lack of ratings. I think Angel was a hard sell for advertisers. For some reason there were many influential forces in TV City who didn't think Angel could be successful, and that perception darkly colored its actual success.

ZachsMind | September 16, 00:00 CET

Which is exactly the point i'm making ZachsMind.

As things stand the networks do not see it as their duty to provide for everyone, only for those that will be satisfied with the cheapest form of entertainment for as many hours as possible and who will spend their money on whatever rubbish comes up in the ad breaks. I don't for one second fool myself into thinking it is anyway other than how you just described.

That is not how it should be though.

The networks should be entitled to provide for the whole range of their viewing audience, not just those easiest to please because their braincells died off years ago through way too much Jerry Springer.

We cannot let ourselves think that five seasons of Angel was enough just because it is unusual for quality shows to survive even a half season these days. This isn't how it is meant to be and it is up to the likes of more demanding television viewers such as you and i to make the networks know that things have to change. Appearing to be happy because Joss managed to survive as long as he did before the networks axed his shows is the wrong attitude.

As i said before, i'm glad and grateful for everything we got but i really don't think we should allow ourselves to believe the WB were doing us a favour by letting Joss do his thing.

They should be entitled to provide for everyone, even those of us who actually like to think.

All that said it is still my belief that many people who would have really loved Angel just never gave it a chance. Because of the fact they weren't watching not only did they not get to experience Angel whilst it was on the air they also helped to ensure that we wouldn't get to continue watching either because of the dire situation i described above.

As things stand in the world of television right now their loss really has become our loss.

The Watcher | September 16, 00:37 CET

PeliG, honestly, I thought that Buffy had way more bad episodes than Angel ever had.

Nothing on Angel ever came close to let's say Beer Bad, or I robot, You Jane, or Inca Mummy Girl.

I also loved Eternity, which I thought was pretty well received when it was released.

To me the only episodes of Angel that I even thought were NEAR bad were She, Happy Anniversary, Why We Fight, The House Always Wins, and The Shroud of Rahmon, but even those fall in the better than the vast majority of TV list.

Well to each their own

rabid | September 16, 00:51 CET

I think another problem with angel and the general viewer is that some episodes are just horrid, and they're not that rare.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but personally I don't think 'Eternity' is as bad as, say, 'Bad Eggs', or any of a certain stretch of BtVS S7 eps (whose titles I can't remember because they're basically interchange- able) where Buffy is cranky, Giles is weirdly distant, Willow is alternately hot for Kennedy or afraid to use her magick, and Xander fixes broken windows. It's all a matter of perspective.

Buffy had its moments of glorious, star-scraping brilliance, as did Angel, and while I admit that nothing on AtS attained quite the overall heights of 'Hush', 'The Body' or 'Once More with Feeling' (though there were several that aspired as high and came very close), I do contest the idea that Angel's lows were lower than Buffy's. Both series, while excellent in the main, had episodes that for one reason or another just didn't work. Why they didn't work, though -- and which episodes deserve such a designation -- is a subject for endless debate.

And speaking of debate, bless you, Senior Partner for your stubborn optimism. The people who invented TV would say you get it -- you understand the dreams they had for such an incredible invention. And yet Zachsmind, the clear-eyed pragmatist, speaks truth. The TV of today (at least the broadcast arm most readily accessible to the largest number of potential viewers) still has power, but its potential is currently being swamped by a sea of bland, innocuous, creativity-stifling pabulum.

Those who want meatier fare and are disappointed with the present mainstream broadcast TV landscape will just have to keep looking elsewhere, for the time being. But intelligently written postcards and faxes keeping networks aware of fan interests that aren't being serviced couldn't hurt, either.

(Some thoughts on the evolution of contemporary media and Marshall McLuhan's 'Hive Mind' concept from the Wiki...)

Wiseblood | September 16, 01:11 CET

The thing is, for me, when Angel is bad it seems like it's not even professional TV. While on Buffy, even if the arc is as poor as the Seaoson 7 arc was, the writing is always elegant and skilled and the acting is always very good. Granted, season 6, which I LOVE as an arc, had some truely embarassing momments, but still. I started watching angel when Fatih made her visit on Season 4, and I winced quite a lot when watching it, though I really , really enjoyed it once Jasmine came along.
To me, watching angel mostly seemd like watching a great show having an eternal mediocre episode.
Season 5, however, was just great.

I was actually surprised to find out I'm a minority here.
It's kind of a given in the Israeli fandom that except for season 5 Angel was *extreamly* hit-and-miss. Funny how if you change a geographic or virtual area the axioms can change completely.

PeliG | September 16, 01:35 CET

"That is not how it should be.."

How it should be??

Radio stations shouldn't support the best of the sixties seventies and eighties either. They should look to now and the future and support their own communities - their own listenership. Even and especially if all their own listeners want is to wallow in the comfy past and not be exposed to anything new and revolutionary and different.

The audience wants what makes them feel safe - not what makes them think. There is a mindless comfort in Charmed that Buffy never offered. You and I prefer butter pecan. Most people just want cherry vanilla. Hate to break it to ya: no one ever said life was fair.

ZachsMind | September 16, 01:43 CET

Again ZachsMind, totally agreeing with you. Everything you said there, absolutely true.

Doesn't mean i have to accept it though does it?

I refuse to be happy with something simply because it is the best we can expect these days. Just saying that life isn't fair doesn't cut it for me. The very least you can do in life is to try make things better. At the end of the day you might have accomplished nothing other than to know in your heart you tried but that would be enough for me.

You can't just accept the world the way it is if you don't like it, you have to fight to change it. The only way things will ever change on the networks is if we make them and saying that we should count ourselves lucky for five seasons of Angel isn't going to change a thing.

I know what kind of a world we live in believe me, i just like to try make it a little better. A television show might be a minor detail in the great scheme of things but this particular show deserved better than the treatment it got and it's worth making that fact known in my opinion.

The Watcher | September 16, 02:01 CET

"The thing is, for me, when Angel is bad it seems like it's not even professional TV."

Wow - that one surprised me. I just didn't see that. I love my Buffy, don't get me wrong, and I love the actors that portrayed the characters, but I personally saw more episodes in Buffy that were "not as good as" than in Angel. (Just watched Where The Wild Things Are again. Doing it to death. Ugh.) And on a whole, the acting on Angel has always blown me away. DB came a long way from S1 of Buffy. Alexis. Wow. Amy. Wow. Andy did a great job. JAG was terrific. Charisma was not enthralling as "evil Cordy" but was otherwise fantastic.

And I would consider the start of Angel S5 to be my least favorite...then it took off.

Zachsmind - Hey, I don't even turn the radio on anymore. CDs only. I seek out what I perceive to be better new music and, snobbily, truly believe that the stuff I like isn't on the radio because it's too good. Not fluff. (I said snobbily.)

But, on the rare occasion the radio gets turned on...it's to a "best of" station. I'll take any music from the sixties, seventies, and eighties over the majority of what's played on the radio today.

Whether we're talking TV or radio, variety should be the key. Until I start seeing that from networks, I guess I'll watch re-runs and cable, effectively seeking out less mainstream new stuff and focusing on "best ofs" again. That way I can keep being a snob. :)

I'm enjoying the dialogue between you and Senior Partner. I also agree you're absolutely right. But I've gotta be optimistic too. Nothing changes if you settle for things as they are. Well, frequently nothing changes even if you don't. But then, the fight is never over. :)

Angela | September 16, 02:12 CET

Well, this has the potential for a cat + pigeons = MeoW!chirpchirpchirp! sort of thing, but . . .

to offer succour to PeliG and the Israeli consensus (sort of sounds like a cool band), I haveta agree that AtS was more hit and miss, as you put it, than BtVS. It's all personal taste. The setting, the chemistry, and the writing of BtVS just did and does it for me in a way that AtS, as good as it could be, which was very very good, never did. Even in my least-fav episodes of Buffy ("Killed By Death", "Bring on the Night", "Gingerbread"), there's a certain shared moment or deft line or comic thing that makes me fuzzy and warm. In my least fav episodes of Angel, I'm kinda struggling to stay focused and, well, care. I own all 7 seasons of Buffy and 1-4 of Angel: measured purely by how often I watch eps, only S4 of Angel compares to all 7 seasons of Buff. As rabid (almost) said, by golly tastes differ.

As for the Optimist v. Pragmatist debate: I can't improve on what's been said on each side, but I can't help thinking that Senior Partner is projecting the responsibilities of a national corporation like the BBC, which has its public charter, onto the very-different situation of the US networks, who, as has been pointed out, are frankly under no obligation to anyone (a minimal sort of compliance with federal regulations aside). If there's a marketing strategy that would attract more viewers to our types of shows, let's wheel it on and prove the WB and Fox wrong. Otherwise, we're just micturating in the wind.

Sadly, I just don't believe a much larger number of viewers would *ever* watch shows as sophisticated and challenging as BtVS, AtS, and Firefly. (Somewhat parallels how I'm scratching my head over how this great democracy is poised to re-elect someone who must surely rank as one of the worst Presidents of all time . . . My personal voyage on the road from belief in democracy to a yearning for enlighted despotism).

SoddingNancyTribe | September 16, 02:19 CET

There you are SNT - I was just thinking yesterday that I hadn't seen a post from you in a while.

I'm not going to go on and on about this, I think everybody's "right" on the optimist/pragmatist thing.

You made a great point about "not-so-good" Buffy episodes....there's always something in there that makes it worth it. As I said before, just re-watched Where The Wild Things Are. Not a fav of mine at all. But Giles singing. And the dialogue between Xander, Anya, and Willow upon seeing him. Priceless. Personally, I was able to find the same examples in my least-fav Angel episodes. Something always made it worth it for me. I could not say which series I like "better". Tonally, they're different. I'm a total geek about each show.

Angela | September 16, 02:30 CET

You and I prefer butter pecan. Most people just want cherry vanilla.

Truly. And yet, complicating matters even further, to an awful lot of people out there cherry vanilla is the racy alternative. ("Just plain vanilla, thanks.")

And then there are those of us for whom butter pecan just isn't racy enough. :P

Wiseblood | September 16, 02:34 CET

Oh, but I have to say- The Girl In Question was as good as the best Buffy episodes, for me. Along with The Zeppo, it was the best spoof episode on the Jossverse. And Not Fade Away weas also really, really strong.
Other than that, SoddingNancyTribe really captured my feeling about ATS well.

I just can't imagine an ATS musical, for example - the show just doesn't seem ... meaty enough to give the required nuance. And I still think it's one of the finest things on Tv ever and everything. And it does have some elements that best even the best of finest Buffy- Lindsey as far as characters go, AD as far as actors go.
But, well- To my tastes, David Fury wrote almost only Average-but-really-solid Buffy episodes, and many of the highlight Angel episodes. And I don't think his Angel episodes are of a higher quality...

PeliG | September 16, 02:38 CET

On behalf of the non North Americans here, what is so special about butter pecan? Curious minds wish to know :).

PeliG Bit of useless trivia for you Lorne nearly appeared in OMWF according to an Andy Hallett interview I read a couple of years ago.

Simon | September 16, 02:42 CET

Personally I find Angel the stronger series, yes Buffy had it's standout episodes, but I found Angel more thematicly pleasing to me.

Oh and about the muisical on Angel, it wouldn't work because of the tone of the series, not becasue Buffy is the meatier program. I for one don't think that Angel singing more Mandy is all that pleasing a notion.

I don't think I've seen one Angel episode I would never want to see again, while Buffy has several, both series have bad episodes, and of course even the worst ones have something good in both series.

Oh, and personally I think David Greenwalt, Tim Minear, Steven S.Deknight, Jeffrey Bell and Mere Smith were among the best Angel writers, I don't think David Fury was one of the best at all.

But "Salvage" was great, definately better than "Go Fish".

rabid | September 16, 02:52 CET

"but I can't help thinking that Senior Partner is projecting the responsibilities of a national corporation like the BBC, which has its public charter, onto the very-different situation of the US networks, who, as has been pointed out, are frankly under no obligation to anyone"

You are probably correct there SNT. Whilst i don't always believe even the BBC is fulfilling it's charter to it's fullest extent (can anyone here from the UK remember the last time they showed a genre show?) i do believe that they at least attempt to please as many people as possible and that they provide a very diverse, high standard of television.

And you may be correct in that there simply aren't enough people who crave sophisticated, challenging television shows (why think when you can watch a dwarf get married!).

I just need to believe otherwise. It's that whole "optimism" problem i have again, it makes me believe the human race actually has some potential even if most of them don't know it.

The Watcher | September 16, 02:55 CET

Aw Angela, it's sweet of you to notice. :). Lately I've only been posting on the most base and unintellectual of topics (like, for instance, my biorhythmic compatibility with various objects of lust), but I will try to do better I promise. . .

I think the word "tone" is quite right, Rabid. (Although comparing Angel's rendition of "Mandy", wonderfully comic as it was, to the sublime song-stylings of OMWF verges on, dare I say, heresy . . .) And on the question of tone, we are of opposite minds. Vive la difference (and El pan, la trabaja y los fusiles)!

Senior Partner: good on you. But no harm in adding a dash of texan pragmatism to your optimism - after all, ZachsMind isn't exactly sitting around bemoaning the state of things, he's acting to get that local music on that there radio. O + P, that's the ticket.

Of more immediate importance: Rum n' Raisin is my ice-cream fantasy de choix. Pure sex on a stick. Sometimes I can barely bring myself to speak the words to the vendor, such is my state of feverish anticipation.

SoddingNancyTribe | September 16, 03:05 CET

I found Buffy much more stronger than Angel. In a lot of ways.

In example. S1 of Angel , for me, was really, really bad.
Many people said S1 of Buffy was bad, but there's always something in there that makes it worth it. Or just the comedy. Presentation of the characters... I really enjoyed it. If S1 of Buffy don`t catch people from the start, we haven`t got more seasons.

I managed to see the entire Angel S1, because I want to give Joss an oportunity, and because it was the Buffyverse, but... uf... it was hardly to see.
In second season the series go better.

Angel TheVampire | September 16, 03:09 CET

I was trying to think of the most whacked out flavor that first came to mind (butter pecan) and then the most boring (cherry vanilla). In hindsight, a better metaphor mighta been neopolitan versus straight vanilla, but my brain was thinking faster than my fingers could type. For the record I hate butter pecan personally, but assumed it's loved by a lot of thrillseekers. I'm more of a cookies & cream kinda guy, but that flavor doesn't say daring or boring - just weird. Chunky Monkey's nice too, or anything with banana in it.

Senior Partner: "Doesn't mean i have to accept it though does it?"

I don't see a Buffy eight, Firefly two or Angel six. Do you? Looks like you have to accept it along with the rest of us.

Tell ya whut. Write up a script, get a camcorder and get some friends together. Produce your own episode of Buffy or Angel. That's about the only way we'll get new Buffy shows, if fans start producing them themselves. I'd volunteer to play Xander, but I might coulda passed for Xander back in 1992. Today, I'd be lucky to pass for Giles. ..A fat Giles.

The networks spoke and we have no way to fight it. Not only is the war over; it's history. If there's any consolation, history will remember the serieses.. seriesi? seeri? ..history will remember it all fondly. Everyone else has moved on and more power to them. I'm happy for them all from Jane Espenson to Danny Strong and all up and down the talent spectrum. We fans should probably move on too. I don't mean leave Buffy and Angel behind per se, but look to the future. Where do we go from here?

ZachsMind | September 16, 03:12 CET

OK, I confess that I played around on that biorhythmic compatability site too.

Butter Pecan. Like the butter cream part. Not the pecans. Rum Raisin. Like the Rum part, oh yeah, but don't like raisins. (Although Raisin Bran is my favorite cereal. I frequently make no sense.)

Give me anything with chocolate and raspberry. Top that off with fudge and fresh raspberries and....if I were Angel....my soul would instantly leave my body.

Angela | September 16, 03:12 CET

"I don't see a Buffy eight, Firefly two or Angel six. Do you? Looks like you have to accept it along with the rest of us.

Tell ya whut. Write up a script, get a camcorder and get some friends together. Produce your own episode of Buffy or Angel. That's about the only way we'll get new Buffy shows, if fans start producing them themselves. I'd volunteer to play Xander, but I might coulda passed for Xander back in 1992. Today, I'd be lucky to pass for Giles. ..A fat Giles."

Now see this is where you are clearly misunderstanding me and what i've been talking about. I'm way passed believing we will see a sixth season of Angel or second of Firefly (an eighth of Buffy is neither here or there, Joss and Sarah wanted to end it so that was fine by me). Those shows are done and dusted, pardon the pun.

I'm not trying to get those shows back, although a nice side effect would be to pave the way for a whole new show set in the slayerverse. My intent would be to improve the television industry as a whole, not just for the sake of Joss' shows. It's the overall state of affairs i refuse to accept, not that Angel is over.

Your question of "where do we go from here" has a very obvious answer of absolutely nowhere if things are left to fester the way they have been these last five years or so. You can only move on if you have somewhere to move on to and i'm seeing a season ahead that is almost devoid of anything remotely creative or interesting.

The actors that we enjoy watching so much are also going to struggle with the "moving on" thing soon as well. I believe it was Julie Benz who recently pointed out the problems reality television is creating within the acting community as far as getting work is concerned. For every show that is axed in favour of more cheap reality more and more actors are out of regular work.

If we were just talking about Angel being axed prematurely then i perhaps would have moved on by now although i still would not agree that Angel deserved to end unless Joss had completed the story to his own satisfaction. However it is surely obvious to you that this goes way beyond just accepting Angel is over.

So if you don't fight to change things before it's gone too far where do you go from there?

The Watcher | September 16, 03:51 CET

Angela, two words: Cafe Piccolo. On Broadway in Long Beach. They have a raspberry chocolate dessert to die for. (Is that still a viable idiom in this glorious new millenium?)

That was 27 words. Inexcusable. And it's not like I *want* your soul to leave your body - except perhaps in a, ahem, good way . . .

Interesting how these parallel discussions spring to life on one humble thread, isn't it?

SoddingNancyTribe | September 16, 03:56 CET

"except perhaps, in a, ahem, good way..."

Okay, just laughed out loud at work in one of those everyone-else-is-real-quiet moments. The good way, uhm, works for me...but I'll behave and just stick to the family friendly dessert discussion. How did I live in San Pedro for a year and visit my best friend at Ocean and Esparanza on a regular basis since moving to Sacramento...and not know this! I am generally aware of quality chocolate/raspberry foods. (A Starbucks Java Chip Frap w/ raspberry syrup being my usual quick fix.) Cafe Piccolo. Heading to Long Beach within the next month or so - I will check it out. There's a sundae shop here that serves up a bowl filled with homemade fudge, vanilla ice cream, chocolate brownie, raspberry sauce, raspberries, and whipped cream. You know, eating that just may be "the good way".

Cafe Piccolo - My expectations are through the roof now - you *best* be right. :)

Angela | September 16, 04:12 CET

Here's their dessert menu. As the top of the menu suggest, it's a date-y sort of place. Take a friend!

Everyone ready to kick us off the board yet?

SoddingNancyTribe | September 16, 04:35 CET

It's Simon's fault. He had the butter pecan question that started the whole thing. (Am I allowed to say "It's Simon's fault?" Probably not.)

I will do that, SNT! Thanks a lot. Chocolate Mousse w/ Raspberry Sauce or Tiramisu. My friend and I can each order one and split them. Fabulous!

Angela | September 16, 04:39 CET

I think I've gained weight just from reading this thread!

palehorse | September 16, 04:53 CET

I'm allergic to dairy now, so I can't eat it anymore, but I love banana ice cream, pumpkin, chocolat peanut butter, and blackberry cream cheese. Another favorite when they still made it was Ben & Jerry's Rainforest crunch with vanilla ice cream, brazil nuts, and butter toffee crunch. R.I.P.

And I hate butter pecan because I can't stand pecans.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-09-16 04:30 ]

electricspacegirl | September 16, 05:08 CET

Mmmmmmm.... ice cream.... mmmm... But not butter pecan or chunky monkey. I'll take Ben & Jerry's Oatmean Cookie, please, or any incarnation that involves coffee and chocolate. Or has anyone had the fabulous homemade icecream at either Christina's or Toscanini's in Cambridge? (as in massachusetts, not england).

As for the Buffy v. Angel debate... It's one my boyfriend and I have periodically. I'm a buffy gal, he prefers Angel. Though both of us like both shows. I think he's drawn to the darkness in Angel. But while I'm all for more mature shows, and lots of darkness and subtext, I've always felt that, overall, Buffy's the stronger of the two. It's hard to put my finger on exactly why, though several people earlier in this thread have touched on a bunch of it. I feel like, as a show, it's just a little more complete. It's a little fuller in the blurring of genres, the scope of its arcs, the range of what it's trying to do. I love Angel, and i even agree, in some ways, that Buffy has some of the worst episodes (Beer Bad? Killed By Death? Bad Eggs?). But Angel never came close to approaching Buffy's highs either. Its humor isn't as strong, and i never cared quite as much about its characters. It's funny - i love character change and growth, but on Angel it's almost as though they changed TOO much - and not always in a way that totally made sense to me. The show itself changed a great deal too. in the first few seasons, it always seemed to be trying to figure out what it was. Noir detective show? Monster-of-the-week serial? Soap opera-y melodrama?

Suffice it to say – I love Angel. I own the DVDs, and i loved going through and watching them. I"m currently partway through season 4, and am loving reevaluating my opinion of the season. But my Buffy DVDs are the ones i put in over and over. They're the ones that, even when i've watched them 12 times, i enjoy seeing again. And get something new out of each time. I groan at the worst eps. but even then, i still laugh at the occasional great one-liner and care what's happening. whereas, as SoddingNancyTribe mentioned above, in my least favorite Angel eps i struggle to really care. Perhaps it's that it takes itself a little too seriously, and, in so doing, makes me take it a little less seriously than I take buffy. if that makes any sense.

(Again – reiterating my love for BOTH shows, though. And i definitely feel like Angel was ripped off before its time, whereas , as much as i love buffy, it was ready to go. Season 7 was painful enough).

acp | September 16, 08:07 CET

Everyone rags on Beer Bad...

<CartmanVoice>I dunno, I kinda liked it</CartmanVoice>

Caleb | September 16, 08:12 CET

I can't choose between Buffy and Angel. To me, it's the same damn addiction that I can't shake...and don't really want to.

electricspacegirl | September 16, 08:49 CET

Horrible, reading all this ice cream talk so late at night where I am -- it's going straight to my thighs! I'm a choco/raspberry kinda girl, too, Angela. Baskin-Robbins used to have (and may still, I haven't been there in a while) a fantastically decadent Chocolate-Raspberry Truffle that I used to trek across town for when I was in college. A big deal, since the shop was well over two miles away and I had to walk! Yummiliciousness to the Mmm!th power. These days I like to make my own raspberry sauce and put it on top of an absolutely evil flourless chocolate cake (a baked mousse, basically) that sanity demands I make only once a year. It's too potent for everyday consumption, having been known to put chocoholics into a state of euphoric food coma for hours after dinner....

If both shows were ice cream, and Angel is darker than Buffy, then Angel must be chocolate. So ... what's Buffy then?

Butter pecan is pretty excellent stuff if you're into nuts, Simon. Which, based on some of the conversations I've known you to participate in (or instigate) in this place, makes me think you'd enjoy it quite a bit. ;)

Wiseblood | September 16, 11:06 CET

even a single episode viewed out of context.
oh, yeah, my mum saw "passion" one night just channel flicking and she totally didn't understand. and she also saw "get it done" and was like "whaaaa?" but then when she was them context it totally makes sense.

I liked Season One of both the shows. They were so cute and it was good because the groups were both smaller so there was more time to focus on individuals.

pezwitch | September 16, 11:35 CET

"If both shows were ice cream, and Angel is darker than Buffy, then Angel must be chocolate. So ... what's Buffy then?"

Cookie Dough! Okay, that was really bad but I couldn't resist!

Firefly Flanatic | September 16, 13:55 CET

I gave up on the Buffy vs Angel vs Firefly debate long ago. To me, it's like comparing apples to ice cream...er oranges. Each series stressed a different point of view. With Buffy, it's teenaged anguish in growing up. Angel, seeking redemption for human weakness. And Firefly was trying to make the best you could in an imperfect universe. I would become a wreck if you told me I could only have one series. Fortunately, that hellish nightmare will never happen. Is it April 22 yet?

Madhatter | September 16, 14:30 CET

Weighing in on the Buffy vs Angel, I like plain vanilla. Just vanilla, no nuts, no fruit, no syrup, no cookie-topping goodness :) On the serious side, pen me in in the Buffy column. I love Buffy, I adore Firefly and I like angel. To me, I finally found myself caring about the characters in the second half of Season Five Angel. "A Hole in the World" is just amazing (extra kudos to AA, Fred gained her third and fourth dimensions from here on). Still, as mentioned by others, there's just something about the chemistry on the Buffy side that feels more palpable to me. Buffy seems to be more introspective and Angel more extrospective. Firefly was achieving a nice balance of the two so of course it had to go (stupid Fox). As for "dark", it irks me when "dark" is synonymous with "adult" and therefore (better?). I think all of Whedon shows are dark and complex regardless of the age of characters. Comedic episodes often have somber undertones, so even an apparent light episode is still about the dark.

Sunnycide | September 16, 14:50 CET

Love em both but differently - don't think either one had more bad episodes than the other. Loved reading all these posts and I love ...Ben & Jerrys Chubby Hubby (yum) and Eddy Grand Chocolate Chip, love em both but differently :)

Passion | September 16, 16:14 CET

Cookie Dough! Okay, that was really bad but I couldn't resist!
lol nice one blwessels

My favourite ice cream you can't even get any more :( It was called Toffee Fudge Fix and was surprisingly a Tescos own brand, but was just genius. My friends and I used to go in in small groups and buy the shop out of stock, still don't know why they stopped making it.

I come down on the prefering Buffy side though again not quite sure why. I would rewatch every episode of Buffy either the day after I originally watched it or at least later the same week, whereas Angel often didn't get rewatched until after the season had finished. I do think that maybe Angel was more consistant however as I can't think of many episodes that would go in my worst ep's list, certainly not as many as Buffy, but there's no Angel episodes that would make my top five slayerverse episodes.

Paul_Rocks | September 16, 19:26 CET

When you watch Beer Bad after watching Restless, Beer Bad takes on a deeper meaning, and it also makes it funnier. Buffy didn't just devolve into a cromagnon. She devolved into a prehistoric Slayer. Really, it's a great episode if you look at it from a more surreal perspective, and with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

..I mean, Xander working in a bar! Come on! I don't see why that never caught on. It woulda been cool if he became a bartender at the Bronze I think, but it would have dramatically changed seasons four through seven..

Buffy is cookie dough ice cream. Angel's not just chocolate though. Angel is some kinda chocolate cherry concoction. Like double dark chocolate with cherry swirlies in it. Maybe some marshmallows.. But my original butterpecan/cherryvanilla metaphor has kinda gotten lost in the mix of 31 plus flavors. Not that I'm complaining, I don't care. =)

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2004-09-17 19:15 ]

ZachsMind | September 17, 20:01 CET

I totally loved Beer Bad and still don't get why it's on everyone's worst list!!

Firefly Flanatic | September 17, 21:59 CET