Oh my...

While I appreciate a good rant, there's no need to sell yourself short with the 'why don't you go and write a book and see if you can do better' argument - while I sympathise, it's really not on

That whole thing lacked professionalism, or any real intelligence... for someone that is an author, the last thing you would ever do is to complain about how no one understands your work - not everyone appreciates literature Yvonne, like film and telvision, it's the way of the world, move on - interpretation and opinion is valid in all respects

I for one don't want to read any of her writing from now on, her immaturity has totally put me off

aapac | September 16, 13:39 CET

Haven't read any of her stories but I did also think that rant came across as very immature and insulting. A lot of Buffy fans are younger members of society and they may not be the best spellers.

And her negative comments about people complaining about typo's and then she herself ridiculing the fans for their own typo's seemed a bit hypocritical. I bought my daughter "Chosen" and it was filled with typos and as a consumer I feel I have a right to be annoyed at the quality of the book (yes, I know she didn't write that one). She really shouldn't have been critical of fans complaining about that and really should've focused her criticism on the publishers and not the fans.

It's probably just as well that Amazon won't allow her to comment because if she commented in that tone, that most likely would turn off a lot of potential readers. I can see past negative reviews that don't seem well thought out or reasonable but if the author themselves comes across the same way, that would make me think twice about spending my hard earned cash on their product.

Firefly Flanatic | September 16, 14:14 CET

Just seemed to me that she can't take criticism, I understand that there must be constraints when writing a book based on a TV series, but she can't say that that's the sole reason people don't like the books. The reviews on Amazon might not give the clear point-by-point analysis of why someone doesn't like the book that she wants, but it is possible to dislike something and not be entirely sure why.

I have the three books in the series, but have been put off reading them by the fact that most-everywhere I've looked says that they're not very good, or that they don't live up to their potential.

Ghost Spike | September 16, 14:17 CET

I can see where she is coming from though Aapac.

Yes you are right that this rant comes off as immature and unprofessional but it often amazes me that more writers, be it of literature, television, movies, whatever, don't occasionally lose their cool with these illiterate, would be critics that post at places like Amazon and messageboards all over the internet.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but many of these people are downright rude for the sake of being rude. I've read a lot of useful, well considered opinions at Amazon but equally as many "Wow, this book SUX!" comments as well.

I would think that after a while you would get to the point when you tire of being told how terrible your work is by twelve year olds that can barely spell and could not write a decent paragraph let alone novel.

This rant was a poor idea and may have made her look foolish but from what i can tell she has been holding this all in for a while and needed to let it out. I'm not going to hold it against her and will judge her future work based on it's individual merits, not this little outburst.

Koven | September 16, 14:29 CET

I read this series and I was very disappointed. The characters id (sorry, I can't think of a better word) were completely off the mark. I'm referring to the Wicked Willow series. I haven't read her other books.

[ edited by Madhatter on 2004-09-16 12:39 ]

Madhatter | September 16, 14:37 CET

I can understand if these harsh reviews were well-written. Even then, there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I read alot of Amazon reviews and if the review is a mess, it holds no merit for me. I certainly hope Yvonne realized that most people can discern the difference and there's no need for a self-indulgent rant about it. I understand that this is her work and is very personal but I think this blog did more harm to her than good.

Sunnycide | September 16, 15:14 CET

Yup, this girl should be thankful amazon won't let her comment on her readers' reviews. Nothing turns readers off like dissing other readers. The reviewers don't care whether the publishers, the author, Fox or Joss himself introduced the spelling mistakes, the bad endings or the hurried writing, nor should they. They're commenting on the final product (not the author, which the rant seems to assume), and if they dislike it, that's what they'll write in their amazon review. They don't have to prove they can write a better novel or even master basic grammar (wouldn't it be nice if they did, though) to be entitled to their views. Other potential readers will check the reviews and reach their own conclusions about the reviewers and their opinions. That's just the way peer-to-peer works.

sasja | September 16, 16:21 CET

I had to go to the amazon site and check out the reviews. I must say I can sympathize with the pain and anger she feels. To criticize a person's work is one thing. To make rude and obnoxious statements about the person themselves is quite another. As I said earlier, I read the 'Wicked Willow' series and I was disappointed. The overall story was fine. What I didn't like was that the characters seemed so out-of-character. Several times, I found myself thinking "Buffy wouldn't say that. Giles wouldn't act in that way." I just felt she didn't seem familiar with the buffyverse characters. With that said, this doesn't not make her a bad writer or that the rest of her books are the same.

I often read the amazon reviews when I'm reseaching info on a product I'm thinking about purchasing. The statements she's referring to are very common. There's a lot of people out there who seem to enjoy taking 'cheap shots' on others. And I never pay these statements any mind, I skip them and go to the next. I'm looking for solid information, not trash talk.

[ edited by Madhatter on 2004-09-16 15:05 ]

Madhatter | September 16, 16:58 CET

I don't read BtVS novelizations, but I sympathize with Navarro here to some extent. Even though I would probably ignore negative comments that are poorly written--because such undermine their own credibility, IMO--they're still annoying, even though "I didn't like it" isn't a critique, it's just a reaction. TV tie-in books may not be Great Art, but Navarro has a point--talent, skill, TIME, and determination are required to write them. In some ways, they may be more difficult to do than so-called "artistic" novels, because of the deadlines and other restrictions. So, "Yay, Yvonne."

Maeve | September 16, 17:42 CET

I'm really not a fan of the "Try and do it better yourself" genre of reactions. Sure, I can't do it, but I don't claim to be able to do it, or get money for it, or publish anything, or am supposed to be a writer. I also can't fix a computer, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't complain if a Tech Lab does bad job fixing my PC.

Not that I read her books or anything.

PeliG | September 16, 17:59 CET

The treatment this writer gets from her publishers is the same that most writers, except the Bill Clintons of the world, get -- the same inconvenience, lack of time, drop dead dealines, etc. But most writers know this going in. It doesn't make living through it any fun, but it certainly is not a surprise. And the criticism? If you can't handle it, if you can't look at it to take what is useful to help you in future work and disregard the rest, then get out. While I can certainly understand the frustration this writer is feeling (haven't read any of the Buffy novelizations, so don't know whether any of the criticism is valid), it is unfortunate that she did not think twice about posting this message for all to see. She's not helping herself in the least, either psychologically or professionally, and her rant isn't going to change the publishing business.

palehorse | September 16, 18:25 CET

It seems to me that she's attacking the wrong people.
Her fans complain about typos, inconsistencies of character, and 'bad' endings. According to what she's written, these things are beyond her control. Perhaps she should print these reviews and get them to her publishers -- those who should be the true focus of her attack.

Madhatter commented above on the characters not sounding like they should. Was this throughout the entire book, or just in parts? Maybe these are the rewrites by various editors that she's talking about. She claims she has no control over what the final outcome is.

I totally agree with what most of you stated above. She should trust her fans enough to know a poor review when they see one. She portrays herself as awfully petty.

Personally, I have a hard time getting through any of the Buffy/Angel novelizations. To me, they feel just as Ms. Navarro described -- push, push, push. Make a quick buck on the success of the shows. Can anyone recommend a good one to me?

[ edited by creepy6 on 2004-09-16 16:56 ]

[ edited by creepy6 on 2004-09-16 16:56 ]

creepy6 | September 16, 18:32 CET

She sounds like a scorned fan fic writer, not a published author. God, I've come across this very kind of reaction when I go through reviews of fanfic. Someone leaves a negative review, and the writer blows up and spazzes out that someone dare make a statement against their writing, filling half their own review page with a rant on how people shouldn't leave negative feedback. Or my favorite is when people write a story, ask for feedback, but specify that it be positive. And if it's negative, you shouldn't leave it. The fact of the matter is, you can't put something out in a public forum and expect to please everyone. And you should heed negative criticism as well as positive, because it's always a chance to grow and change. Now if you realize the comments are just out of meanness and spite and aren't constructive at all, then ignore them. Don't lower yourself to fire back something just as negative and insulting. Especially if you're a published author. Have a bit more class than that.

And she has to keep making mentions that she gets positive reviews in her email. Just so ya know she's not really a bad writer.

And yes, I've gotten a few Buffy books. And some are riddled with poor characterization and spelling/grammar errors. I expect better from something 'official', but seeing responses like these, I am starting to think the 'authors' are just glorified fanfic writers who happened to get lucky.

Rogue Slayer | September 16, 18:35 CET

The Buffy/Angel crossover Monster Island didn't suck. Although Willow's appearance in Orpheus and Spike's arrival in season five of Angel makes it kinda redundant now.

I know these novel aren't considered to be part of true continuity unless they are direct adaptions of the episodes but i always prefer the novels that actually could fit into the series if you wanted. Monster Island could pretty much do that up until Just Rewards made it very evident that Spike hadn't met Angel's team before then.

Still a good read though.

Koven | September 16, 18:42 CET

I actually had to quit reading that...

I was just looking for my "Tales of the Slayer" books so I could see which ones she wrote but I seemed to have loaned them out. Can anyone remind me which are hers? I think I liked all but one from the first book and disliked many from the second. I haven't gotten the third yet.

I feel for her, I do, but she needs to let it go a little. They're just silly Amazon reviews. I'm an avid book hound and I never read those reviews. Anything that lacking in useful insight and that poorly written would never influence my decision. I think maybe her anger is a little misdirected. Palehorse summed it up nicely.

marmoset | September 16, 18:47 CET

While I understand the sentiment, even if I disagree with parts of her rant, this is the kind of stuff you better confine to your personal and private diary. Put it in print and it all it does is make anyone sound naive and unprofessional.

Also... DUH, had she never read reviews at Amazon before?

Caroline | September 16, 19:18 CET

creepy6, I'll have to say it was only in parts of the books. And it is possible that she didn't have any control in these sections. One of the biggest complaints I noticed in the reviews is how the story ended. Well, she said she had no choice in that matter. As far as the characterization, that's just my opinion. Another reader may view the characters in an entirely different way.

Madhatter | September 16, 19:18 CET

Hmmmm.... Well!

Someone's ripe for some therapy time.... (They can do wonderful things with olanzapine these days.)

bookrats | September 16, 19:22 CET

I haven’t read any of her stories or the Amazon reviews she is referring to, but how does that saying go “If you’re angry, count to ten. If you’re very angry, count to one hundred”?
I hope she feel better now that she got it out of her system, even if it did make her come off kinda bratty herself.
I can understand that the juvenile comments on top of the pressure to meet her deadlines probably caused her to snap, but perhaps she could use her time more constructively by writing instead of reading negative reviews or ego stroking e-mails.

bloodflowers | September 16, 20:04 CET

I wonder if Navarro feels anything like Willow after Willow's outburst at Giles and Angel in Reptile Boy: "and I don't feel any better" (or something like that). Letting off steam in the way Navarro did here rarely pays off for the steammaker. My bet? She's feeling embarrassed and crappy about it already.

I also wonder if this isn't going to do damage to her future of writing Buffyverse novels/novelizations.

phlebotinin | September 16, 20:05 CET

"I am starting to think the 'authors' are just glorified fanfic writers who happened to get lucky." Erm, isn't that precisely what they are, RogueS? Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . I don't read novelizations or fanfic myself, but I'm sure there are some terrific writers out there in both media.

Navarro's approach is wrong-headed, but as the husband of a writer who has had asinine reviews of her work posted on Amazon, I can tell you it is pretty damn frustrating to have jack-asses clogging up the first page that potential readers will see, mouthing off about style and content (if they can actually vocalize such profound criticism) in prose that is itself shoddy and error-ridden. Even knowing how impossible it would be, I nevertheless kinda wish that Amazon would moderate its review boards a little.

Still, as all of the above have said, these are feelings for you and your diary to share. Or you and your glass of wine and cigarette and pillow to cry on.

SoddingNancyTribe | September 16, 20:13 CET

Now that is someone with an extremely thin skin. She seemed all too quick to accept praise and to summarily dismiss any negativity. Firstly, many of these books are put in the Young Adult section so it's possible reviewers had gotten them there. Secondly, the excuse for mispellings is weak. There really is no excuse. Between an author an editor they should be able to catch all those errors. I find it hard to believe not one other pair of eyes reads the story either, even if it's a friend. I have a feeling there are plenty of people chomping at the bit to take her place, she shouldn't be so quick to extend the offer.

IMMORTAL | September 16, 20:17 CET

"I am starting to think the 'authors' are just glorified fanfic writers who happened to get lucky." Erm, isn't that precisely what they are, RogueS? Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . I don't read novelizations or fanfic myself, but I'm sure there are some terrific writers out there in both media.


Well, I should have said they are writers with the fanfic writer mentality--and on the lesser side at that. And I like to think that people who get published do so by having talent, and not just by getting lucky. Now, I can't comment on this woman's work, I don't think I've read any. But her mentality is no different than someone on ff.net or aff.net in responding to a negative criticism. I didn't mean to disparage all fanfic writers/readers/critics, which I see now might have been implied. I'm all those things myself, and I have read better fanfic than half the stuff published as 'official' Buffy stuff. But the mentality of some of the writers....well, this woman's rant reminded me of that. The people who want only praise and no criticism. And who can't accept that some people are going to be rude and stupid in their reviews--no getting around it. And especially people who are very....ardent in their fanship, those folks are going to take things like poor characterizations very hard. And they're vocal. It's the way of life. I wouldn't like to get the kind of reviews she probably gets, but it's not really tactful to respond in kind.

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2004-09-16 18:45 ]

Rogue Slayer | September 16, 20:44 CET

"I am starting to think the 'authors' are just glorified fanfic writers who happened to get lucky."

I'd disagree. Chris Golden didn't just get lucky, he's a very good writer.

Allyson | September 16, 20:47 CET

Agreed, RogueS. But, Allyson, I think anyone who gets published got lucky. Some of them are great writers, some good, and some pretty awful. But, IMO, they all got lucky. 'Cos for every one who did, there's a hundred good writers who didn't and don't. Chris Golden didn't *just* get lucky. But he did get lucky.

Luckiest of all, of course, would be Drew Goddard. That lucky, lucky bastard . . . :)

SoddingNancyTribe | September 16, 20:57 CET

I liked the Lost Slayer books.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0743411854/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-1885957-8619024#reader-link

I don't like it when a writer adds something that is only seen in his stories, never in the show or in any one else stories, like the ghost roads. Despite that, the Lost Slayer is the best Buffy book(s) by far.

coldfront4 | September 16, 21:14 CET

I'm sure this is one of those cases when a person wrote while fuming in rage. We've all had those moments when we find ourselves pounding on the keyboard in anger. Feels good at the time only to bring regret after we cool down. Still, as many of you have pointed out, she could have picked a better forum to target her anger. This will strike many as an unprofessional outburst.

I'm with you, SoddingNancyTribe. I also wish amazon would "review" their reviews. I've seen several that didn't even discuss the product. But you're right. That task would be impossible with the sheer volume they deal with.

Madhatter | September 16, 21:25 CET

If it were just "luck" Drew Goddard wouldn't still have a career. I don't really believe in luck at all, like some magical force pulls the planets into alignment and shines upon you at a given time. I think, if someone works very hard to do something (or not, because they have an assload of talent), and after some tremendous failures (or maybe hasn't failed at all, yet), gets the thing done and published, it's dismissive to say they were lucky. They worked to make a thing happen, or if they were in the right place at the right time because statistically, someone was going to be standing there.

Allyson | September 16, 21:35 CET

Few thoughts I had on reading this author's rant:

-Where has she been living? Any review forum on the net is filled with trolls. You can sort of expect it. And yes a lot of those posts may have been from 11 year olds for all we know. I do agree it's odd that Amazon monitors their pages only to prevent a writer from answering and not to keep the consumer reviews on a certain level.

-Yes. Spelling errors in the Buffy novels run rampant. I've seen them spell "Master" as "Mooter", it's ridiculous, but then I always blamed editorial failure for that. That IS their job. And now I see it truly is their fault because they simply choose not to do it anymore. But why is she reacting like a spurned teenager? Just say 'yes the spelling errors annoy me too but due to editorial policy changes, there's nothing I can do about it.' This rant truly sounds just like something on well....a stupid internet board where people rant!

-As said, she should've kept this on an LJ. But IF you choose to make it a public statement addressing the fans, for god's sake sound like professional adult. Say 'It frustrates me to see so many inaccuracies on Amazon, since other people might go by these 'reviews'.' or SOMEthing. This made her indeed sound like a FanFic writer who can't stand the big bad world not worshipping her.

It's really not going to do anything positive for her. People who wrote those reviews probably never get to see it, and if they do, they'll just rant twice as nasty on Amazon now. People who didn't, might get the feeling she's ranting to Buffy fans and just think she sounds like an immature whiner. And her frequent reminders that she gets positive mails too make her indeed sound....let's say, young. Next time she should take a breather and cool off before posting.

And Allyson, no one said Chris Golden is a glorified fanfic writer. RS' point was that a rant like this makes you wonder if writers like that are. And like SNT said, every author. regardless of talent, who gets published (let alone regularly), got lucky. Just the way of the world.

On the whole I've been underwhelmed by the Buffy novels. I haven't read that many but the ones I did read were indeed misspelled, under-edited and kind of out of character. Chris Golden's 'Pretty Maids All In A Row' was probably the best I've read in terms of pacing and structure. (Although I should add I find a lot of his dialogue and plotwork for the comics very out of character compared to the shows)

When I see that they put the Buffy novels next to the 'Hilary Duff' crap in the bookstores I think I understand a lot. Whoever's in charge of this, has decided 'Buffy' is only for the 12 year old girls who buy Mary Kate & Ashley merchandise. Why need to edit that? Those kids can't spell anyway! Frankly I've read a lot of fanfic, that with a little editing and restructuring, could kick the ass of most of those novels.

EdDantes | September 16, 21:38 CET

And Allyson, no one said Chris Golden is a glorified fanfic writer. RS' point was that a rant like this makes you wonder if writers like that are.

Ah, I misunderstood her statement, I am starting to think the 'authors' are just glorified fanfic writers who happened to get lucky., then. Did you just mean this particular author, Rogue Slayer? I haven't read her work.

Allyson | September 16, 22:00 CET

Ah, I misunderstood her statement, I am starting to think the 'authors' are just glorified fanfic writers who happened to get lucky., then. Did you just mean this particular author, Rogue Slayer? I haven't read her work.

I more meant her attitude, as I tried to explain earlier. She has the mentality of a net fanfic writer who got lucky. Reading some of the novels I have(I don't think I've read her) the quality isn't that great, spelling/grammar errors are rampant, and characterization is off. I've read better *actual* fanfic. And I've seen more tactful, civilized fan fic writers respond(or not respond, as the case may be) to much worse criticism.

As for Chris Golden, he's not astounding, he's mediocre in my book. And I've read better fanfic. So yeah, I think he got lucky, or the excellent fanfic writers are unlucky(if they even try to break into the official market). Or he's got better fortune or however you want to break it down. He got a better break than someone whose talent might be more deserving.

Rogue Slayer | September 17, 00:48 CET

EdDantes, you are sooo very right! Any way one explains how it happens, numerous typos in a commercially produced book reveal the publisher's utter contempt for the reader. In the case of the Buffy books, the publishers figure they can put any old piece of trash out there and, as long as it has pretty "Buffy!" cover art, those silly little girls will buy it. The goal is to knock 'em out, get the money, and push the next one out there asap because those little girls grow up fast and start to earmark their dollars for other, more necessary, items like makeup and music.

The concept that there could be an adult market for Buffy and Angel stories seems to be beyond their accountants' ability to visualize. That's really too bad, because one can see by the mountains of fanfic out there, catering to almost everybody's personal tastes, that such a market does exist and is begging to be fed.

Oh, and about those "glorified fanfic writers" who get lucky, does anybody know how can I be one? I could sure use the money. :-)

wissxwe | September 17, 00:54 CET

I also did a quick check on Amazon to see what these 'reviews' actually were saying.

Interestingly enough, a books search on Amazon for 'Buffy' turns up one of her novels *first*. Out of 2,257 hits. Now that's got to be worth a few sales in itself. She's pretty lucky in that respect at least.

A lot of the bad reviews for that book do seem to say the same thing - charactisation felt off and the overall plot seemed somewhat redundant, plus some characters just seemed to be disappointing macguffins. This could be a case of monkey see and monkey do, but one of the reviews was from one of the Amazon top 10 reviewers according to the badge, and he gave it a two (he gave the first one a four). Maybe, just maybe - it did suck a little.

Second - checking out her as an author, all her books with average ratings have average ratings of 3.5-4.5 except for one (a Species audio cassette that got a three!). Looking at a random selection of the these it's the usual case of a few fives (I loved this book) and a few more ones (bok is teh S\/<K). This is pretty good going, surely.

In conclusion, I suspect the author would be better off using a pseudonym for her fan-fictionish endeavours (however monetarily rewarding they are) - that way she won't need to take the slights so personally and then appear quite so whiny on teh intarweb

[ edited by giles (yes, it is my real name) on 2004-09-16 23:46 ]

giles (yes, it is my real name) | September 17, 01:38 CET

Oh, and about those "glorified fanfic writers" who get lucky, does anybody know how can I be one? I could sure use the money. :-)

Me too! If I could publish the drivel I write, I'd gladly take the bad reviews so long as the money came in! :)

Rogue Slayer | September 17, 06:04 CET

Why don't you, Rogue Slayer? Send a query to the publishers of the Buffy books.

Allyson | September 17, 06:09 CET

I also don't understand her dig about Amazon removing the Author Review section. What was she going to say? Defend herself against the critics in a review section? Weird.

That said, I just read through her website and it seems she might have a slight attitude issue - especially with Amazon and being in competition with them. Amazon allowing 2nd hand copies of books to be sold seems to be the major bugbear. Good grief, get over it!

[ edited by Mort on 2004-09-17 05:10 ]

Mort | September 17, 06:14 CET

"The concept that there could be an adult market for Buffy and Angel stories seems to be beyond their accountants' ability to visualize."

Well put. And the interesting thing is that Buffy crossed all kinds of borders in it's audience. In the few conventions I attended I saw all types of people of all ages, races, genders, etc. And most were over 20 as far as I could tell. Joss also was smart enough to realize that the teenagers who watched it from the start grew up. Every season of Buffy dealt with more adult themes than the one before. And apparently that's too much to grasp for the noval people...ah well. The Watcher's Guide is riddled with mistakes, why should we even expect better of the novelizations?

"This could be a case of monkey see and monkey do, but one of the reviews was from one of the Amazon top 10 reviewers according to the badge, and he gave it a two (he gave the first one a four). Maybe, just maybe - it did suck a little."

Heh, I didn't want to say it, because I haven't read her books, but when I think of some of the ones I have read then a lot of those criticisms (misspelled or otherwise) could be kinda on the mark. But as said, I haven't read her books.

"That said, I just read through her website and it seems she might have a slight attitude issue"

Yeah, an overall sense of utter surprise that anyone at all could ever have criticism, or that not everyone in the world who posts on the net is going to be a 100% rational and eloquent. No offense, but it kinda makes me wonder what planet she's from....

EdDantes | September 17, 10:47 CET

Why don't you, Rogue Slayer? Send a query to the publishers of the Buffy books.

Nah, I was obviously joking. My self respect outweighs my desire for money. I wouldn't want to delude myself by pretending my fanfic is good enough for a publication. It seems many writers don't have that problem, but I personally wouldn't want my work referred to as "I've read better fanfic", which it most certainly would be. And even if I didn't care about that, I'd have to be lucky, which I'm not.

I think this woman's main problem is(like many other people) she gets a bit of positive happenings going on in her professional career, and then thinks she's untouchable and that people shouldn't dare say negative things about her. Because I have a feeling, from her tone, she wouldn't *really* accept negative reviews that were constructive. She just doesn't want negative reviews sullying her Amazon.com review page. No one does, of course, but it seems this woman is amazed that people are saying anything negative about her books. I don't know, I could be way off, maybe she takes constructive criticism like a champ and she's just hacked off at the harshness of her reviewers, but I still think she could have handled it better. The classy thing to do is nothing at all. Let your work (and positive reviews) speak for itself.

Rogue Slayer | September 17, 10:55 CET

VERY well said, Rogue Slayer.

Willowy | September 17, 19:36 CET