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September 26 2004

Faith the Vampire Slayer. A new website which aims to get a Faith TV Movie off the ground. Very similar to Save Angel, it looks professional and it keeps you updated, so people have obviously put a lot of time and effort into this. But now that Tru Calling's apparently on its deathbed I would have personally gone for a series....

Gotta Have Faith

Also in the News Section, it mentions that Tru Calling should finish filming for good in a couple of days. Even though I've always been a FtS supporter, its still a little sad that everything Eliza's worked for is over, but hopefully this won't put her off getting another series
Yeah it's sad. Apart from her I can't say I'll miss it much. She really worked and fought for the show. Promoted it wherever she could. At the Comicon she dropped a teensy hint she hadn't been entirely happy with at least the first half of the season either, but she gave it her all.

But so it's officially over? I mean I know it went from 'You have a second season!' to 'Well maybe in the fall', to 'and only 13 eps', to 'well actually only 6' to rumors of them trying to shop it to other networks so we all knew it was a goner, but I hadn't heard the official 'we're dead' news yet.

And yeah, obviously if Tru is over and those TV movies are happening, then let's have Faith the movie! Right up there with Spike. Just add "Ripper" to it and a Willow one...
Well it's not been officially cancelled so I've edited the subject line to show that.

And I have grave reservations that a Faith TV movie or series is ever going to get made:

1) Joss is burnt out from the Buffyverse.

2) Eliza turned down the chance of doing it the first time round.

3) Who is left from Mutant Enemy to help with a Faith movie?
Bell is on Alias, Fury is on Lost, Minear is working on the Heinlein movie. The only person I don't know about is Greenwalt and I imagine he has something lined up.

4) Back to Joss. Serenity is in post-production. There are plans for a trilogy and what if he gets the X-Men 3 movie gig?
I think it's completely bogus that Tru Calling is being cut down
to six episodes, for the second season. The series just started and I've been waiting all summer for the new shows to start. (not just Tru) What is left on TV, in the Sci-fi catagory? I rufuse to watch so called reality TV!!!! Reality TV is for mindless losers!!!

We need Whedon back on the air!!!!!

Where are you Joss??

We need a new Buffyverse spin-off!!!

We need our fix of monsters, demons, slayers, witches, humor, wit and multi-faceted characters!!

We need our Sci-fi heroes and heroines!!

Please Joss come to our rescue!!!!!
All good point there Simon, although i would imagine most of them are not issues that are set in stone.

1) Joss was clearly ready for a break admittedly but he is also a workaholic and i can't imagine it will be too long before he starts thinking about the slayerverse again.

He already said that he wants to see more televised tales from the slayerverse happen when the time is right and that as long as he could oversee everything he would more than likely leave any new show in the hands of a showrunner anyway. So even if he did get X-Men 3 and Serenity 2 was greenlit chances are a new show would still be able to go ahead.

2) Eliza did turn the Faith show down initially but as i recall it was not a done deal at the time that it would definately happen whereas Tru Calling was going ahead. Also she wanted to try a different role understandably rather than just be SMG's replacement in the lead slayer role.

She may well be regretting that choice now though. With Tru Calling all but gone she will be looking for work again soon and a Faith show might seem a lot more attractive. I know that even whilst Tru was on the air she was very aware of what was going on with Angel's cancellation and the fan campaign which shows that she is still interested in Joss and his shows.

3) As for which ME'ers are available, well as much as i don't want to jinx her shows i don't honestly see Marti Noxon being too busy come the end of the current new season. Lost has a chance to succeed i believe but there is no saying that Fury wouldn't switch to a Faith show, particularly if Spike was involved too. David Greenwalt is available as you mentioned so he would be a very good option.

The truth of the matter is that i cannot see any new series, Faith, Spike or anyone in the lead role, happening this season, it's just too soon. Realistically it will be next season when it happens by which time everybody we have mentioned may be in a totally different situation from where they are now.

Because of that i would totally back any effort such as this Faith campaign site if it nudges those we need involved (Joss, Eliza et al) into getting back to the 'verse.
The Letter that I sent to 20th Century Fox today:



"To Mr Gary Newman, Ms Dana Walden and Ms Gail Berman

I have taken the time to write to you, regarding the issue of a new movie or prefarably television series based on the exploits and adventures of the "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" and "Angel" character Faith. I'm sure Ms Berman will be well aware of this character's previous history on both shows seeing as she produced them.

Faith was played by Eliza Dushku from the third season of "Buffy" to its seventh and final season (as well as two episodes in the fourth season), and also appeared in the first, second and fourth series of the spin-off "Angel". Even though she played Faith on and off for several years, between both shows she racked up only 26 episodes, yet is ultimately one of the favourite characters. This provides the popularity, while also leaving a lot of Faith's background and character's to explore.

To add more texture, as well as having maybe one or two new characters to join the cast, I feel that the two most beneficial characters to bring into the Faith Series would be Andrew, played by Tom Lenk (who would be perfect in juxtoposing Faith's fairly dark outlook on life, and bring a needed comedic element to the show) and Gwen, played by Alexa Davalos (who would be a source of conflict to Faith, as well as due to her abilities, an asset). The other person that I considered was Spike, played by James Marsters, although I feel he could carry his own show, and having two lead characters in one show, both with very different storylines needing to be told, could become a mess. The actor is talented and clearly enjoys playing Spike, and I beilieve he would be able to have his own spin-off (a 13 episode run, rather than a full 22, which I feel Faith is more suited to)"



There was this whole other thing about the premise of the series which I think was pretty good, but i forgot to Copy that part.
One more thing about Joss and Buffy. Of course I don't know Joss personally so this is just my speculation but Buffy was his first "baby" on TV so I think the Buffyverse movies may still happen because there is always a special place in his heart for the shows and characters. He created and owns the characters.

It seems totally understandable that after years of working and being immersed in the Buffyverse that everyone would like a break, and a change (Joss, Eliza, David, etc.) but after a bit of time and distance, I would think revisiting the Buffyverse in some form (say a movie) would look attractive and fresh and fun again.

Any job I do gets a bit boring after a while, it's nice to do something else then come back to something I know. Once I have had a break I come back refreshed and filled to the brim with new ideas.
Well it's not been officially cancelled so I've edited the subject line to show that.
Snip
3) Who is left from Mutant Enemy to help with a Faith movie?
Bell is on Alias, Fury is on Lost, Minear is working on the Heinlein movie. The only person I don't know about is Greenwalt and I imagine he has something lined up.


I agree with points 1,2 and 4 Simon, though 2 is open to debate, a TV movie might appeal to Eliza where a TV series wouldnt. But you overlooked one very obvious ME writer, Doug Petrie is not only not doing anything at the moment, and a free agent contract wise, but he is also the ME writer with the most experience writing Faith, having penned 29% of all Faith dialogue on Buffy. Joss and Doug are the only writers to have penned significant credited amounts of Faith dialogue. (greeny and Marti prolly have penned significant uncredited dialogue)

2) Eliza did turn the Faith show down initially but as i recall it was not a done deal at the time that it would definately happen whereas Tru Calling was going ahead.

For the record Tim mineaer revealed UPN had greenlit FtVS prior to ED turning it down, TC was not greenlit till after she signed on.
"For the record Tim mineaer revealed UPN had greenlit FtVS prior to ED turning it down"

Really? This i did not know! Surprises me as well because i was under the impression that UPN were more than ready to let the slayerverse go after Buffy ended with the way things turned out for them financially. I'm very surprised to hear that they were willing to give a Faith show the go ahead although i would imagine that it must have been with the condition that it be A LOT cheaper per episode if that was the case.
Ocipital, do you remember when/where Minear revealed this tidbit about UPN and FtVS? I had never heard this before.
Imagine yourself as Eliza Dushku. Put yourself in her shoes. She finally had a television vehicle where she was the center of that particular universe. She wasn't in the shadow of SMG. She wasn't playing the part of "that other slayer." She was finally going to be able to put that part of her career behind her and avoid being completely typecast. She wanted to show some range. Sure she was ticking off a large percentage of what fan base she has, but at least she'd be her own woman. However, her fan base turned against her because she refused to spend the rest of her life playing Faith. Why would she cater to our needs now, when we weren't there to support Tru when Eliza needed us?

She turned the Faith idea down already. She didn't want it then and she'd be a fool to want it now. She had it served to her on a platter and she chose Tru instead. NOW do you honestly think she's gonna come crawling back on her hands and knees with her tail between her legs and beg Whedon to please reconsider something she wouldn't consider in the first place? And do you honestly believe Faith the Series would be anything better than Renegade with a woman on the motorcycle and demonic undead instead of ..whatever that Renegade guy was after? Faith the Series is at best a cult vehicle, and would never break into the mainstream. It'd get cancelled faster than Firefly did.

We need to take a step forward with the WhedonVerse. FtS would be several steps back.
here the link

">>So Tim, two quick questions: 1) If Eliza had been interested, do you think a
Faith series would have been green-lighted;<<

It already had been. Studio and network were all on board."
Zachsmind, the premise of FTVS could always be changed. Obviously Spike hanging around as a ghost won't happen since he's already been a ghost on Angel. They don't have to use the 'Faith on a Motorcycle' plotline. And with ME writers at the helm, do you really think it would be as bad as Renegade? Have some faith.

Oh, and I was also going to mention Petrie. He would be a perfect choice to run a Faith series.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-09-26 19:36 ]
I think the Buffyverse is well close, but if a new spin off must happen, i go with the Faith idea.
Only Faith. The rest of characters are done. And, of course, not Spike. I like him, but he`s very, very done. They will burn him.

Jane Espenson will be available.

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2004-09-26 19:55 ]
I also feel we're jumping into this thing way too soon. This site is a good notion and I'll support it. But I feel it will come to not. Joss is the key and he's just too busy to put time into this. 'Tru Calling' is doomed and Eliza will be available, but that doesn't mean Joss will be. IMO, I don't think he sees network TV as very friendly. I'm holding a candle that a cable network such as HBO or Showtime appoaches him with a series, but that too remains to be seen. Everyone needs to take a breath and wait.
ZachsMind, i don't think for one second she feels like the fanbase she gathered whilst playing the role of Faith turned against her for not continuing with the character. On many occasions whilst promoting Tru Calling she made a point to mention the fans effort to save Angel from cancellation. Would she have done that if she felt that very same fanbase were anti-Tru?

In fact of all the ex-slayerverse actors who have made the decision to leave their characters behind at least for a while (Sarah, David and Anthony being the obvious other examples) she has had the easiest ride. Sarah and David especially have been mauled by the more rabid groups of fans for not dedicating themselves 200% to Buffy and Angel whereas i have seen very little evidence that Eliza has been the subject of that same fanbase attack.

I think the majority of her fans, myself included, fully supported her wanting to try something new and respected her giving Tru Calling a try. I now think that it was a bad decision simply because the show turned out to be very bland but i was more than ready to watch it and enjoy it when it first began.

Tru Calling didn't fail because the slayerverse fans didn't want it to succeed, it just wasn't all that good. If there was the slightest bit of evidence that any part of that fanbase had sunk the show then i would imagine that Eliza would be a little pissed, however that just is not the case at all.

Your other points are valid however and i wasn't massively keen on the original Faith show premise back when i first heard it either. However as Electricspacegirl has said it would be a different thing now and ultimately i trust Joss and the team to not even try do a show that sucked. I think they have earned the benefit of the doubt given what the have done with the last three shows.
Is it official that Tru Calling (if aired at all) will not be shown until 2005?
Simon smart.

Joss isn't your congressman, you know? Flooding him with letters isn't going to make him do something he's not interested in doing. It's just going to make two assistants sort through letters, put them in a stack, and say, "245 people wrote to ask you to do a Faith series. Um, we lost the phone bill."

Which I am sure is mighty flattering. But if he wanted to do it, he'd just call Eliza (and if she was interested), pitch it to a network.

Then they might have a campaign.

This seems like jumping the gun, the gunman, the gunman's mom...

Edited to add: Why are they asking people to send letters to both the PO Box (that gets delived to the trailer) and the trailer?

Why not just, you know, email or call ME and ask if there's an interest in doing this, before asking people to persuade?

Why am I not asking the campaigners? Why can't I get off my ass and clean my apartment?

[ edited by Allyson on 2004-09-26 21:08 ]
I also don't think the fan base turned against Eliza when she chose to do Tru Calling instead. I gave the show a try and just didn't like it, had nothing to do with a vendetta against Eliza for not doing a spin-off. I actually think the more dedicated Eliza fans watched the show even though admitting they didn't find it particularly good. I'd love it if there was a Faith movie or spin-off if ME and Eliza wanted that but I think there are many, many other ideas they could go with. Personally, I'd love something with Illyria over Faith. Illyria was fresh and exciting and the 'verse was a buzz over that character and wanted more.

I disagree with this campaign just for the fact that Tru Calling hasn't even been officially cancelled yet and I think it could be a bit insulting to Eliza that it seems that a part of the fan base was hoping that Tru Calling would fail so she'd have to do a Faith spin-off. I'd never want any of these stars to fail just so they'd be in a position where they'd have to come back to the 'verse. I'd only want to see actors coming back because they wanted to.

I'm sure if Joss had an idea for a great series or movie and he asked Eliza, and she was available, she'd want to do it.

The way I understand it, Tru Calling was in the works when the Faith spin-off talk was going on. She went with a sure thing. I can understand her wanting to do something new and all her own. If a Faith series had happened right after BtVS ended, it would've been looked at as that other show about a Slayer. It was too soon for it. If Tru Calling had been a hit, we'd all be praising Eliza for her smart career move. I think the show had a good premise but bad writing and that's too bad for Eliza. I wish her the best and I'm sure she'll have success whether in the movies, another series or coming back to the Jossverse. She'd be a great candidate for a character in Firefly/Serenity if there is a trilogy. We all know how Joss likes to use his actors in other projects. I'd love to see her in that enviroment with that cast. She could be a bounty hunter or something, or maybe even a Reaver.
There is a differing account from UPN why the spin off never happened after Buffy finished. Back last year at the UPN Fall presentation or what ever they call it, TV Guide reported the following from Dawn Ostroff, UPN president of entertainment:

"9:26 am Ostroff explains that a Buffy spinoff never materialized because, in the end, "Joss [Whedon] wanted to take some time off, [and] we didn't come up with something that was exciting enough for everybody to move forward." In other words, Eliza Dushku followed her Tru Calling and went to Fox."
Blwessels and Simon, thanks for those points. That was pretty much my understanding as well. That a Faith spinoff had been seriously disussed but never officially greenlit which is one of the reasons Eliza went with Tru Calling, it being the safer bet.

Allyson, i do get your point that this seems a little early to be attempting a campaign but what harm can it really do? If these people, and anyone they can persuade to join in, want to get a little proactive and make it known that a Faith spinoff is still desired then why shouldn't they?

As you said yourself, Joss isn't going to do a Faith show just because a few hundred people write to him but it certainly can't hurt for him to know the interest is still strong.

Wouldn't it suck if years from now somebody interviewed Joss and asked him why no third slayerverse series ever materialised an he simply said "Nobody seemed all that bothered about seeing one"?

Okay, obviously he knows better than that already but to me every letter that gets written will be more of a help than a hinderance to a new show arriving in the future.

We can't sit around here complaining about the dire state of television today if we aren't going to do anything to try and improve it. However little a thing something like this campaign may seem it is better than nothing.

Again, how can it hurt?
Again, how can it hurt?

Because it's sort of harassing. When the Save Angel campaign was going, there were thousands of postcards flooding into the office. Why? Joss didn't cancel the series. Why did his staff have to spend hours sorting through postcards?

He knows that fans would watch a sockpuppet series about Mr. Gordo and Mr. Pointy, so why keep poking him in the ribs?

Also, what if he doesn't want to make a Faith series?

It makes more sense for fans to campaign for things they are sure their hero wants, no? Because what they're actually doing by flooding his office with postcards is making a demand.

I have every right to ask you Simon to moderate a Fury board. I mean, he's put himself out there as someone who likes Fury and is willing to moderate a board, and talks about enjoying it.

But if I toss up a website and my friends send Caroline and Simon 500 postcards asking them to please have Simon mod my site, it's a completely different animal. What if Simon isn't interested in that? Is my continued harassment going to make him change his mind, or resent my effort?

What if I start sending those postcards to their homes? They lose the electric bill in the flood of it, and it's not going to change the fact that perhaps Simon doesn't have time, or interest.

Now, what they're "asking" Joss to do is to pitch a series to Eliza (without knowing whether either party is interested, and apparently, they don't care, they just want want they want), convince her to do it, then pitch it to Fox, convince Fox.

It's not as if they're commissioning a painting, in which they're ponying up the cash (which covers materials and time) in exchange for the portrait they've specified. They're telling him they want him to spend an enormous amount of his time to make them something, with no guarantee of a payday.

Since he's under contract with 20th to develop, they'd be much better off writing to 20th and saying they want this thing. Because 20th is at least in the position to tell him what to do. The fans are not, and in my opinion, should not be in the opinion to tell him what to do. Again, flooding the creative people with postcards is less a request and more a demand.

Their intention may be to just let him know that the fans would watch such a series, but that's foolish. He already knows that.

I just think it's rude.
Why not just, you know, email or call ME and ask if there's an interest in doing this, before asking people to persuade?

Probably because they don't know ME's email address or telephone number. Of course, you can always send overnight mail with a prestamped return envelope asking for their input before pushing for a project. It would be nice if ME was supportive of the idea before campaigning.

Oh, just in case Joss is reading this *cough*SpikeMovie*cough *ahem* *cough*SpikeSpinoff*cough* ;-)
It would be nice if ME was supportive of the idea before campaigning.

I wish I could be that succinct.

Probably because they don't know ME's email address or telephone number.

They figured out the business address, the phone and/or email isn't far behind. And it seems a courtesy to ask before waging a campaign that will clog up their mail for weeks.
I should add that 50% of what's aggravating to me is that they've listed ME's office addie on the site, when ME has always, always given the PO Box as preferred method of getting mail from fans.
I doubt they figured out the business address - it's readily available on a bunch of fan sites - they probably just copied/pasted it for their own use.

Perhaps they don't know that the P.O. Box is the preferred method. Some things aren't as common knowledge as we'd like to think they are.
Sorry Allyson but what you are describing is a far cry from what this campaign appears to be attempting and furthermore i cannot imagine that Joss would see anything like this as a form of harassment.

His entire career is based upon people being fans of his shows and his movies. He isn't going to complain that people are passionate enough about his work that they will organise something along these lines. I'm certain he would be a hell of a lot more concerned if the letters stopped coming and people lost interest in what he was up to.

When fans start congregating in front of his home with banners saying "Make a Faith show or your puppy gets it!" then i would agree that he was being harassed. At the moment all i see is a group of dedicated fans that want to support their favourite slayerverse character.

Nobody is "telling" Joss what to do, nobody is telling Eliza what to do. They are just being fans and doing what fans do in the internet age. Why sit and hope for something when you can organise a campaign? Will it do any good? Who knows! Will it make Joss lose any sleep either way? Doubtful!

Ultimately it isn't as if Joss has said he will never return to the slayerverse, in fact he said he wants to sooner or later. It's not as if a Faith show isn't a real possibility, he wanted to do it before, why not again? It's not as if Eliza has said she would never play Faith again.

Nothing these people are asking for is out of the question, nothing they are doing will cause anybody any harm. Don't be so hard on a bunch of people who are doing something other than complain.

As for what you mentioned about the ME office address shown on the site, that actually is out of order. If ME want to receive fanmail via the PO Box address then that should be respected. However it is quite possible that those involved do not know that fact.

Overall though the campaign is in no way harassing anybody in my eyes. When Joss says himself that he doesn't want this kind of thing happening then it becomes disrespectful and rude to bother him. Until then i'm going to assume he would see it the same way i do. As a testament to the dedication fans have to his creations.
When fans start congregating in front of his home with banners saying "Make a Faith show or your puppy gets it!"

See, I think this campaign fell off the same tree as that particular fruit, which is okay, we can disagree of course.

When Joss says himself that he doesn't want this kind of thing happening then it becomes disrespectful and rude to bother him.

Then surely you must understand that until he says he does want to make a Faith series, but isn't sure if people want it, they shouldn't be flooding his actual office with this?
"Then surely you must understand that until he says he does want to make a Faith series, but isn't sure if people want it, they shouldn't be flooding his actual office with this?"

Firstly a quick side issue. If this campaign really had the potential to go so far that it was likely to disrupt the day to day business of Mutant Enemy then i would say that you had a point but truthfully do you really see this garnering so much support that the ME offices will be flooded with mail?

It is a small fanbased effort to show that there is still a desire for a specific show, that's all. If five hundred letters or postcards arrive in total i would be extremely surprised and even more so if more than twenty or so arrived per day, hardly likely to throw the office into chaos.

But to your actual point, i do see what you are meaning by demonstrating both sides of the same arguement however in this kind of situation it isn't the same thing.

As i've said the entertainment industry that Joss is a part of depends on the fans to survive. They don't need to ask us for our opinions on what we want to see, the ratings take care of that usually. These days however it can only help to have a rough idea as to what your fans really want to see prior to spending time and effort developing a project.

Joss is in a position where he must expect fan opinions on what he does. It's part of the job. From fans at conventions to forums such as this one, it's all about getting feedback on what is popular and what is not. This type of campaign is just an extension of that.

As such he would need to make it very clear that this kind of thing was unwanted before it was likely to stop. Unless he says in no uncertain terms that he is getting annoyed with all the letters and postcards i have to assume that he is okay with it going on. In the meantime i stand by my belief that this will do no harm to anybody and so i say let them get on with it.
I love Faith and I definitely think there's room in the character for a TV movie; and Joss has expressed interest in doing a few Buffyverse TV movies focusing on other characters, as we all know. But a Faith series? They'd struggle to come up with something interesting there, because as it is Faith is a loner and a rebel. Teaming her up with a cast of characters around her would be difficult and her as the travelling slayer by herself risks leaving you with a show that feels one-note. Plus, there's always the risk that it just turns into Buffy, or Angel, or some sort of Buffy/Angel mix thing, since that's what Faith effectively is. She's a slayer, but she's been evil. I have lots of faith, excusing the pun, in the ME writers and all, but it'd certainly be a challenge.

Personally I'd much rather see things move ahead with the Giles series, Ripper. Giles is a significantly different character from Angel and Buffy, he's older than Faith which gives him more of a history, we know so little about his past at this point, you can set it in the UK, Joss and Tony Head have expressed interest, and their both great friends. I think it would be great to have an old fashioned mystery show, something more thoughtful and reflective than the previous two, with Giles in the lead. Especially when you're in the UK, the land of moors and dales and plenty of history, and especially when you've got a large story already there with the re-building of the Watchers Council. Fuck, team up with his comical sidekick Andrew and you're golden. The show writes itself.
Firstly a quick side issue. If this campaign really had the potential to go so far that it was likely to disrupt the day to day business of Mutant Enemy then i would say that you had a point but truthfully do you really see this garnering so much support that the ME offices will be flooded with mail?

That's a really great point. It depends on how tenacious they are. I know by my own referrer logs that a Whedonesque post can contribute thousands of hits to a site, and so I'm going from that.

Unless he says in no uncertain terms that he is getting annoyed with all the letters and postcards i have to assume that he is okay with it going on.

Do you think he'd ever tell fans he was annoyed with them? I don't.

I think fans should take responsibility for their own actions, which is why I think it's a courtesy to just ask first if he wants to do this thing, before launching this sort of campaign.
Just a quick weighing in on this (somewhat heated) debate....
I tend to agree with Allyson here. I think Joss, frankly, is WELL aware of all the fan desire that's out there for a Faith series, a Ripper series, a Spike series, various TV movies frankly, anything that's a continuation of the Buffyverse. It's probably never going to be the reason he decides to DO any of those things ("Hey, well, the fans seem to want it, so i guess i'd better..."), but it certainly is nice that he knows he has a loyal fan base to count on that would welcome any buffyverse spinoff, if he ever chose to go there again, with open arms.
Given that, though, i don't think he needs to be told that, repeatedly, by postcards or any other method. Frankly, any sort of organized mailing becomes at best a nuisance and at worst a massive time suck/mail sorting nightmare. They're not really going to get read, but it's one more thing someone has to deal with and sort through, and it's minor harassment probably not the best tactic to use with the creative genius you're hoping will feel kindly toward the prospective show.
True, there probably aren't thousands of "Faith the Vampire Slayer" cards coming his way, but knowing the organized (and active!) buffy/angel fan base i'm sure there are a decent number, not to mention all the others pushing Ripper/Spike/Miss Kitty Fantastico/Andrew the watcher-in-training/etc/etc.
I guess it's hard for me to see a big upside, and i can see a big potential downside. I put myself in ME's (and Joss's) shoes, and know i'd much prefer the fans to be patient and let me make the decisions as i get there. ultimately, they're not going to be the ones deciding what he does next in any case, and he already knows they're out there and support him.
As for targeting 20th century fox, on the other hand - that strikes me as actually having a purpose, and a (slim) chance of making a difference. It might remind the executives - who, ultimately would need to greenlight anything joss wants to make - that the buffyverse and unexplored future incarnations are still out there, as is a rabid fan base. Much more strategic.
Personally, i'll be thrilled with any return to the buffyverse we get - i'm not quite sure joss'll ever want to go back there, but i sure hope he does.
Do you think he'd ever tell fans he was annoyed with them? I don't.

I think fans should take responsibility for their own actions, which is why I think it's a courtesy to just ask first if he wants to do this thing, before launching this sort of campaign.

Exactly. On both points. It's just basic consideration....
And i doubt joss would ever lash out at his fans he loves them, and has said so on many occasions, and knows how much he owes them but i'm sure that in private he often expresses frustration as well: Do they have to be *quite* so rabid??? I know I would... Being idolized can be a double-edged sword.
Targeting 20th C. Fox sounds more sensible to me than barraging ME at this juncture, at least in the initial stages. Follow the money, they say. It's not Joss who's funding the series he creates, it's the studio. Bury them in dumptruck-loads of postal enthusiasm and someone, somewhere, is bound to pay attention, even if it's only the poor shlubs working in the mailroom. Meanwhile, Joss will be able to find his phone bill and concentrate on whatever it is he's currently into without more distraction than he has to deal with on the usual. (I'm married to a hardcore artist, I know from obsessive, and JW's not going to drop creative threads before they're good and tied up, or forget we're out here. He probably can barely sleep at night, knowing we're out here.)

I totally understand and appreciate the urge to do something instead of complain. I also see Allyson's perspective (which I have reason to respect, given her connections): Point the intent where it's likely to do the most good.

Joss just wants to create stuff. Like every talented artist who's found out they can do what they love and coincidentally make a living at it, he didn't set out to be a god or anything; that happened as a consequence of the sharing part of the process. Let's give the dude a little breathing room. He's rescuing certain Marvelous comic heroes from storyline purgatory. He's working hard to put together a beautiful movie for us all to enjoy in a few months, and after that rocks the world back on its heels, he'll have time (and money out the yinyang, I hope) for other things, some of which may be Buffy-verse flavored. Let's consider what goodness is already, and soon to be, coming our way, and yes, be proactive, but not biteful of the hand that's feeding us.
You know what's at the back of my mind when I read about pressure for a new spinoff? Enterprise. Now correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I see it the owners of the Star Trek franchise wanted to continue this long running genre show/universe (maninly for financial reasons and still being in the public eye etc) and there were many fans who wanted to see the continuation of that particular universe. But there were also fans who wanted the franchise to take a hiatus for a while.

Now what they all got was the worst of all worlds. A new spinoff that was panned by the critics and which has divided the fans causing many to leave to give up on the Trek universe. I lurk on Trek boards, there are many saying that this is the end of the Trek universe. I don't want this for the Buffyverse.

I want Mutant Enemy to be ready in their own time for a spin off. I don't want them thinking "We better do something quickly cause 20th Century Fox want more money and we don't want to lose our fans". Give it a couple of years, heck give it five years. The fans will still be here. Yes, do a spinoff but do it for the right reasons.
First up, acp, as far as i'm concerned (and i think i can speak for Allyson here as well) this isn't a heated debate. Just a debate, pure and simple. I'm certainly not going to hold a grudge against Allyson for having a different opinion to mine. It's always nice to have somebody tell you when they think you are wrong. Saves making an ass of yourself the next time the topic comes up. ;)

The thing is that i absolutely agree with all of you that Joss should not be pressured into doing anything he isn't ready to do. He certainly should never be harassed by the people he considers his fans until he does exactly what they want him to do. If and when we see a third show i absolutely want it to be when Joss is ready (mainly because i get the feeling he is waiting until he is certain he has something that won't get cancelled before the fourth episode airs). So in all of that we absolutely agree.

However i still don't see this Faith campaign as being the problem you all seem to make it out to be. It may not come to anything at all and even if it does it won't be anything like what we saw during the Save Angel campaign. The thousands of possible visitors to the site you mentioned Allyson does not neccessarily mean an equal amount of letters will be sent. It's a lot easier to click a link than write a letter.

As for what you said about Joss not wanting to annoy his fans by telling them to stop doing stuff like this, that is no doubt true. However Joss is good enough with words to be able to politely ask everyone to back off if it really was a problem for him.

Before we condemn what these Faith campaigners are doing as being harassment we should wait and see if Joss actually feels harassed by it, thats all i'm saying.

Simon, the fact i left Star Trek behind during the incredibly dull Voyager and have barely watched Enterprise at all should tell you that i agree with you. The Trek franchise totally needs a break for it's own good.

However, if you were to continue the Trek analogy, the fact that the third show, Deep Space 9, is considered the best and most critically acclaimed may suggest that a third slayerverse series sooner rather than later may be the best idea.

Just as long as they don't try a fourth series about a slayer who gets sent 70,000 light years from home with a group of totally uninteresting companions and an irritating demon friend called Squeelix we should be fine! ;)

[ edited by Senior Partner on 2004-09-27 13:00 ]
I couldn't really stand Voyager, either. I've watched roughly 2/3 of the aired Enterprise eps, and some of them have been outstanding (and many of them mostly forgettable). I still think they should've maybe taken a longer break between franchises. Though I didn't get into it at the time as much, my brother convinced me to watch DS9 by playing me some of the best eps. Going back through it all on DVD I was blown away. It is far and away the best trek series ever. Bar none. Anyway he had to get me back for getting him hooked on Buffy/Angel/Firefly. I think I'm still winning though as he has had to buy 6 Buffys, 4 Angels and Firefly so far and I've only had to buy the seven seasons of DS9... of course Paramount prices their DVDs ridiculously high but... Anyway I'm getting rambly. Shut up shutting up :)
Senior Partner is a big liar. We met up in an alley last night and beat the crap out of each other. We're posting from the ER right now. And as soon as this IV drip is complete, Ima hit him over the head with a bedpan.

I gave up on Star Trek after Next Generation. It's all about Picard.
Now Allyson, how could you do such a thing? To damage a perfectly good bedpan....really :)

You two bought up some excellent points. I'm leaning towards there's no point in flooding Joss or ME with mail on this topic. I think they're aware of how the fans feel in this matter. But, I don't see any harm in writing FOX Productions (or other networks for that matter) to express a continuing interest in Joss' work.

I actually liked Voyager. There were a few shows that had me rolling my eyes, but I liked most. 'Course, really took an interest when Jeri Ryan joined the cast so male hormones may be clouding my judgement. Must agree that DS9 was a much better written show than the rest. Not on par with BtVS or AtS, but good neverless.
"Must agree that DS9 was a much better written show than the rest. Not on par with BtVS or AtS, but good neverless."

Ah ha, and did you know a couple of scribes did eps of DS9 and Buff or Angel? Jane Espenson is one... errr crap... brain no workie. There was a story editor from DS9 who was involved in the 'verse somehow... oh yeah! Jose Molina, who wrote the episode 'Ariel' for Firefly was also assistant/intern to Howard Gordon (consulting producer and writer for Angel S1) as well as uncredited writer for several DS9 eps while he interned there.

Anyway some fun connections also when you bring in Brian Fuller (Wonderfalls) who wrote what fans tell me are good eps of Voyager from s4 onward of that show.

Enough six degrees of Whedon from me for now...

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2004-09-27 18:40 ]
I just want to say that the debate didn't strike me as heated either. It's been an enjoyable read and I think Senior Partner and Allyson deserve credit for keeping things on subject and not getting personal.
"He knows that fans would watch a sockpuppet series about Mr. Gordo and Mr. Pointy"

ooooh! When? I wanna see it. I wanna see it!
Bwahaha, I'm semi-delurking for this very amusing thread. All this talk of Buffy and spin-offs and DS9 reminded me of something Joss said once. I don't remember where or why--hey, it's Joss; does he really need a reason?--but I actually use it as an away message because I think it's hilarious:

"I'm working on Buffy: Deep Space Nine. It will be dark and badly received."

Gotta love that Joss. :-)
How apropos, I never heard that one. Thank you for posting it -- it really made me laugh.

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