Whedonesque : Comments on 4943 : WB shows having second life in syndication.

"Ironically"? You are very generous, SaveAngel. "Hypocritically" is a word that leaps to my mind!

am I the only one remember Levine's comment that the show doesn't rerun well.

[ edited by rabid on 2004-09-26 21:08 ]

I just sent the WB a heated letter about my dissapointment with the way their network handled itself regarding Angel. I'm hoping to get a reply, but I doubt that I will. They are probably too busy making some show that will be cancelled in 2 weeks. But if I do get a reply I'll be sure to post it.

ShotgunWes | September 27, 00:35 CET

Well, if it makes people go out and buy the dvd boxsets, get a Angel film made etc, spin off Spike/Faith.

It always gonna be sad the WB ended it the way they did, but there's positives to people watching Angel in reruns, the cancelation of Angel was like mourning a death in my family, I just loved the show dearly, just greatly done, has everything.

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-09-27 01:37 ]

SeanValen | September 27, 03:36 CET

Garth Ancier came in to power after Angel was cancelled and has been one of the people pushing for a TV movie. He's not being hypocritical.

Gonnas | September 27, 04:11 CET

What did he say once, Garth
"I'm sure Joss is up for it, and David will take a bit of hoaxing, but I'm sure he'll come around."

Confident David will come around. Maybe next year, who knows.

SeanValen | September 27, 05:17 CET

*hee* I think Garth said "coaxing" (or choking?...kidding!), but I like "hoaxing," SeanValen. Yes, David, this is a big screen Angel movie, cross my heart...

chasa | September 27, 05:51 CET

Garth Ancier was the head of WB programming during Angel's run on the air, and he was Jordan Levin's boss. While it's nice to see that events (I'll presume JL's mistakes are among them) seem to have generated some sense of awareness among the top brass that patience with a show finding itself is a virtue, I'm still not inclined to shake Mr. Ancier's hand right now. Points for getting rid of Levin and all, but Angel is still cancelled and I'm still really, really unhappy about it.

Color me unsurprised that AtS is kicking ass in reruns. As with all things underground, the mainstream is the last to catch on to anything. Buffy had its day in the sun, but I think Angel is going to sneak up on the cultural radar and become the belatedly cool cult show of the '00's (be it as dead as its titular hero) when it's all said and done.

Wiseblood | September 27, 07:25 CET

Sooo in other words, all the other big projects the WB had planned either died even before Angel's lost ep ended (Dark Shadows, Lost in Space, etc.) or are bombing now (The mountain) and even big and mighty Smallvilles's big season opener (Clark will fly! We're throwing Lois Lane in there!) is BELOW Angel's ratings last season, and now we learn Angel also REPEATS WELL!

What reason or rationale is actually left of their motivation to cancel Angel?? And I know Levin got booted out already but that still doesn't prevent me from being pissed off yet again...or still.....argh!

EdDantes | September 27, 08:16 CET

Right there with you, Ed.

electricspacegirl | September 27, 08:46 CET

That quote wouldn't be hypocritical if Jordan Levin himself had said it. It's generally true. It's not like AtS had a short run. Let's be realistic.

Smo | September 27, 08:53 CET

Shotgun Wes, you may receive a reply back from the WB, but don't be shocked to find it as a generic thank you statement. I sent a letter after the cancellation statement was released and that's what I received. I remember getting a little upset because I asked several questions in a professional matter. Gave me the impression they barely read it.

I was surprised to read in this article that FX was disappointed with the BtVS viewership. I seemed to recall in other articles that the show was very successful. If the ratings are low, wonder if it has to do with the pop up ads and bad editing.

On a side note, we recently started getting TNT here and I was surprised to see AtS being aired in the full screen format (this was season 4). Could have sworn that TNT was airing it in wide screen when I viewed it in the US earlier this year. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me. Is anyone seeing AtS in wide screen on TNT?

Madhatter | September 27, 16:13 CET

I think the main reason FX was disappointed was because that network paid a considerable sum for each episode of Buffy and it didn't seem to be justified in the number of viewers they got.

TNT bought each episode of Angel for $250,000, a sum which I understand was far less that what FX paid for each episode of Buffy.

Simon | September 27, 16:31 CET

That makes sense. TNT got a good deal. "Entertainment Weekly" reported that FX paid roughly $650,000 per episode of Buffy.

Madhatter | September 27, 17:21 CET

Also, it's hard to get FX, unless you want to pay fifty dollars or more for cable. It's not featured in the basic package, (at least not where I live)...

Just saying.. (Cause I prefer Buffy, to be honest, although Angel is good too.)

twiggy | September 27, 18:10 CET

Twiggy I agree with you, I like Buffy just a tiny tad bit more, but I had to add FX in order to get Buffy because it wasn't part of my basic cable. In addition, they show Buffy, at least where I live at the craziest times, like 6am and 7am in the morning. I mean I would love to sit and watch but I have to be getting ready for work.

jabby | September 27, 18:40 CET

When Buffy first aired on FX it was a huge hit and they were showing it constantly, uncut. I had lost the WB affiliate that we had for our satellite dish so I was eager to catch up. Then FX pissed me off because they were airing the show in order but they skipped over "The Body" and they also skipped over the "Dracula" episode too. It was soon after the show started airing on FX that they started selling the seasons on DVD and once FX showed the show once they started the inevitable chopping up of the episodes and adding more commercials. And don't forget those annoying and huge pop-ups they always do. I think most Buffy fans went out and bought the dvds so we don't see a need to watch the show on FX anymore. Angel, on the other hand, never had as big a following as BtVS did and there are probably people checking it out for the first time. I'm sure if they think like me, once they are hooked, they'll prefer buying the dvds instead of watching a show get butchered in syndication.

I only caught a few episodes of Farscape recently and because I liked what I saw, I went out and bought it on DVD just for the fact that it's available and more enjoyable without all the commercials, butchering and pop-ups. I think the majority of devout Angel fans already own the show on DVD and once all the seasons are available, TNT may see a drop in viewership as people opt for dvd ownership instead.

Firefly Flanatic | September 27, 19:21 CET

FX originally showed BtVS at 5 & 6 p.m. & 6 & 7 a.m; is now showing BtVS at 1 & 2 p.m. and 7 & 8 a.m. (Eastern & Pacific)--much less convenient times for anyone with a normal life. It's part of my basic cable package, though, so should I want to tape it (not so important now, thanks to DVDs), I can.

Very possibly many viewers are annoyed by FX's persistent use of ENORMOUS animated bug ads for their other shows, such as The Shield, Nip/Tuck,, or Rescue Me, none of which I watch.

Maeve | September 27, 19:27 CET

Guess this means I'll be writing yet another email to WB. I should just go ahead and add them to my address book.

Madhatter - I don't remember TNT ever showing Angel in widescreen (although I could be mistaken). It's one of the unfortunate things about AtS rerunning on TNT. That, and their horrible editing.

obsessed | September 27, 19:34 CET

That makes sense. TNT got a good deal. "Entertainment Weekly" reported that FX paid roughly $650,000 per episode of Buffy.

Holy crap! That's a lot of money for one EPISODE!

And ok, this leads me to another question I've been wondering about for a while now. How much do the actors get? Is it per episode or per season or per two year contract? I mean, does SMG make $250,000 per episode? $50,000? And what would a JM or NB make in relation? And what about pay for repeats? Do they get 'residuals' for that? And if so what? Ok, lotsa questions, but if anyone has a clue, I'd be interested to know. I know they're not making Seinfeld and Friend's type of money, but they have to be making a decent living.

Rogue Slayer | September 27, 20:11 CET

I will be watching AtS season 5 on TNT (starting tonight). I only caught one or two episodes when they originally aired and I'm too impatient to just wait for the DVD's to come out next spring. I'll cope with the chopping and commercials and then when the DVD's come out I will be happy to watch them again (and probably again and then some more).

I haven't seen any of BtVS season 7, but I'm going to wait for the DVD release on that one since it's only a couple more months.

jewel | September 27, 20:13 CET

How funny Rogue, I asked virtually the same question in the Riley thread, though mine was regarding conventions. And it was generated by YOUR comment! ;)

Willowy | September 27, 20:21 CET

Hmm, Willowy, do we have money on the brain??! ; P

Rogue Slayer | September 27, 20:32 CET

LOL! Always, m'dear, always...

Willowy | September 27, 20:39 CET

And ok, this leads me to another question I've been wondering about for a while now. How much do the actors get? Is it per episode or per season or per two year contract? I mean, does SMG make $250,000 per episode? $50,000? And what would a JM or NB make in relation? And what about pay for repeats? Do they get 'residuals' for that? And if so what? Ok, lotsa questions, but if anyone has a clue, I'd be interested to know. I know they're not making Seinfeld and Friend's type of money, but they have to be making a decent living.

I remember reading that Alyson Hannigan was getting $160,000 per episode during the last season.

pesoto74 | September 27, 20:51 CET

"Hmm, Willowy, do we have money on the brain??! ; P"
"LOL! Always, m'dear, always..."

If only we had that kinda money in zee pocket.....;-)

"I remember reading that Alyson Hannigan was getting $160,000 per episode during the last season. "

Dang....I imagine SMG or DB getting more than that, seeing how they were the title characters. Yeah that's the kinda money I meant. Argn.

EdDantes | September 27, 20:54 CET

How much do the actors get?

For what it's worth, the IMDB (in the "Salary" section near the bottom of the page) has SMG down for $350,000/episode for BtVS S7. AH got $250,000/ep (season unspecified). On the other hand, DB supposedly only got $30,000/ep, even as the lead on AtS. However, I have no idea how accurate these numbers are, and whether they're even directly comparable.

bovik | September 27, 20:54 CET

Thanks obsessed. No, I think you're right about the AtS wide screen. I was converting many VHS tapes to DVD at the time so I must be getting my older WB shows mixed up with TNT. Now, I feel bad because I told someone in Whedonesque that it was in wide screen when I didn't have my facts straight. Very sorry!

Madhatter | September 27, 20:56 CET

My info was already rendered obsolete. Ah well, not my morning clearly . . .

[ edited by SoddingNancyTribe on 2004-09-27 18:58 ]

SoddingNancyTribe | September 27, 20:57 CET

I seriously doubt those salary figures as reported by IMDB. I suspect 50-100k per episode is norm for this time frame. That's just a guess on my part.

Madhatter | September 27, 21:43 CET

I admit to being curious about salaries as well. I realize The WB and UPN probably pay a great deal less than the "big" networks. Also do salaries figure into a Budget for a show? Or are they above and beyond the budget alloted for the actual creation of each episode? I would think that if they were included that would be like having a salary cap in sports...pay one guy too much it allows for less for others.

Grace | September 28, 00:00 CET

Ancier’s quote about “giving the producer’s time to fix it and the audience time to find it” is rather odd in regards to Angel. It wasn’t broken and, um, how many different timeslots did it have again? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that once the magic number of 100 episodes for syndication was reached, cancellation came soon afterwards.
While I appreciate that someone noticed females out of the most desirable demographic may find a show in syndication, assuming that they may watch ‘female oriented’ shows like7th Heaven or Charmed instead of Angel is insulting. Do not put me in a category just so you can sell something to me. Do not stereotype me. Do not assume I watch Oprah. And for goodness sake don’t assume I watch something for the feel good heartwarming factor.

bloodflowers | September 28, 00:42 CET

The one thing I clearly remember about Angel on the WB was the lack of promotion the series got. I easily saw three times the advertisements for Smallville than Angel. They would show a promo for Smallville then tack on at the end something like "After Smallville is Angel"

Actually I remember seeing pretty much all the other WB shows (7th Heaven, Charmed, Gilmore Girls) get pushed except Angel. It always bothered me.

And yes Bloodflowers - I don't think the timing of Angel's 100th episode and then the cancellation was a coincidence . I am not sure but I have read that series get more when they go into syndication if they run for 100 episodes. I don't know why.

Passion | September 28, 01:37 CET

"And yes Bloodflowers - I don't think the timing of Angel's 100th episode and then the cancellation was a coincidence . I am not sure but I have read that series get more when they go into syndication if they run for 100 episodes. I don't know why."

In general yes, but not in Angels case
1) sydication deal was reached back in season 4
2) 20th Century Fox sees all profits from sydication, not the WB
3) Angel's sundication deal wasnt worth bothering with. It is one of (if not the) worst sydication deals signed in the last 5 years, DVD sales on one season are likly worth more than the
entire syndication deal

Of course they wernt going to announce the cancellation a week before the 100th episode because its an even shittier thing to do than to announce the cancellation straight after, and its harder to hype it to get higher ratings.

Ocipital | September 28, 02:48 CET

I'm pretty sure if SMG and AH were getting $350,000 and $250,000 an episode then DB was at least getting $250,000 like AH, but someone like AD was probably getting around $200,000 and poor Andy Hallet was only getting $80,000 an episode.

ShotgunWes | September 29, 00:18 CET

poor Andy Hallet was only getting $80,000 an episode.

Ok, that line makes me laugh....'poor' Andy only getting 80 thou for a week's work....These people are overpaid!! I love 'em, but DAMN!! If you only made(I say only...) $50,000 per episode, you'd still make over a million a season!

Rogue Slayer | September 29, 03:07 CET

I was just saying poor as compared to the other actors. DB is gonna make the most of course because he's the title character then AD because he's been there the longest then AA because she's the lead female now that CC is gone and AH was a guest star forever. He was there before AA but he wasn't a regular so I guess his salary now is probably what J. August's was the first season.

ShotgunWes | September 29, 05:27 CET

September 26 2004