October 20 2004
WB want Angel Season Six?
Cinescape are reporting that the WB would like a sixth season. I really do not know if this is a rumour or not. They are also reporting that Amy Acker is casting for Superman.
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Um. Yeah. Don't think so.
RambleOn623 | October 20, 17:45 CET
Storyteller | October 20, 17:48 CET
killinj | October 20, 17:55 CET
But if Not: YESSS! YESS! YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!
Apocalypse | October 20, 17:56 CET
I almost hope The WB begs for Joss and all the actors to come back and no one does just to rub it in their face: "You had your shot you corporate bastards!" On second thought I think I would just rather have a great show to watch again.
Spikecam21 | October 20, 18:02 CET
Simon | October 20, 18:06 CET
Paul_Rocks | October 20, 18:10 CET
Um, I think if this rumor were true, James would drop 'The Mountain' in a hot second-so I don't think this is really a factor. However, if it's not true, The Mountain has quite a bit to gain by trying to keep James on as more than just a guest star.
And AA as Lois Lane? Not sure I can see it. I only know her as Fred or Illyria, and for Lois I assume she'd have to be more snarky and sharp than Fred, and well...less cold and emotionless than Illyria. She's a good actor, so she could maybe pull it off. But then again, they go on to say she's not even on the list of the final 6, so....who knows what's true and what's not.
And the WB *wanting* a 6th season probably IS true-seeing how everything else they touched turned to crap this season(even their favorite child Smallville). But if it's in the works is a whole 'nuther matter.
Rogue Slayer | October 20, 18:16 CET
RambleOn623 | October 20, 18:18 CET
I wonder if they have the same insiders that E!'s Kristin has. :)
"According to our anonymous source, (relatively) new WB Network Chairman Garth Ancier ..."
Huh - outside of a year he ducked over to FOX Ancier has been with the WB almost since it's inception and has been aroundfor Angel the last 2 seasonsof the show, as Levin's boss most of the time.
"But there's a problem," explains our friend on the inside. "Most people have moved on. The creators of THE MOUNTAIN are impressed with James Marsters and are hoping he'll stay on..."
Wow does someone actually think this show will make it past sweeps. Also James said he would not leave LA for a permanent gig on a show, so I doubt he'd do anything more than re-occuring once in a great while.
Also to come to David's defence a bit, he loved doing Angel but he didn't think TV did Joss justice. Anyway I think David may still have issues with the way the WB canceled the show and if Joss asked nicely he would concider it. I say this cause everyone who was there when David was told the show was canceled said he thought about the fans before he thought about how it would effect him. To paraphrase what Chris, J, and others heard. David looked at Joss and said, "The fans are going to be pissed."
[ edited by RavenU on 2004-10-20 16:43 ]
RavenU | October 20, 18:25 CET
And, no, RambleOn623 and Storyteller, there's some truth to DB distancing himself from Angel. He thinks he is too good to do TV now. He's barely good enough to play a character that he's been trying to play for 8 years-- he's grown too big for his britches. (I may be just bitter--does it show bad?) In addition to guiding two fantastic shows, to writing some of the best scripts that have ever aired, Whedon created two stars that both think they are above the show. Utter nonsense. That has to be as much a slap in the face to Whedon as it is to us. SMG is too young to understand what she gave up was as close to magic as you'll ever get. Or, what's worse, maybe it will never 'dawn' on her. DB will never find a part with as much depth that he is able to play. Whedon has to work around his prima donna lead actors by creating vehicles that don't require them (cartoons/comics). What does Whedon have to do next to get his stories told? What hoops will he have to jump for us? I doubt he has given up on the buffyverse just yet, but nobody has made it easy for him. So instead of the b'verse, he's created his firefly 'verse, and he's fallen in love again. I think his new 'verse is just a pale shadow next to the buffyverse, but I'll take what I can get. You go, Joss! Never give up, even if you have to work with butt-heads. (I hope that's not too strong for this board.) Don't fade away. (quietly gets down off his soapbox a bit sheepishly)
| October 20, 18:33 CET
PMMJ | October 20, 18:34 CET
palehorse | October 20, 18:37 CET
trekkerj | October 20, 18:43 CET
ACcording to JoBlo.com Evangline Lilly(Kate on "Lost") is one of the frontrunners looking to get the Lois role.
eddy | October 20, 18:46 CET
JM is an impressive actor in my opinion and I consider myself among his biggest fans, but even I don't think he can *save* The Mountain. Besides, he wants a TV career where he can stay in Los Angeles and I think The Mountain films in Vancouver.
killinj | October 20, 18:52 CET
"The WB's struggling freshman dramas Jack & Bobby and The Mountain are swapping time slots. Jack & Bobby, which has already been picked up for a full season, will move into The Mountain's Wednesday 9 pm perch beginning Oct. 27, while The Mountain will shift to 9 pm Sundays starting Oct. 31. Meanwhile, per The Hollywood Reporter, the Frog net has ordered four more bad scripts of The Mountain."
And have a look at The Futon Critic to see how badly The Mountain has done in Angel's timeslot.
-41.69%? Ouch.
Simon | October 20, 18:53 CET
As much as I want to see Angel back... I really think I want the WB to suffer with horrible ratings, and for the folks who cancelled it to have nightmares for the rest of their lives.
Was that a bit harsh? Maybe. lol
I do miss Angel...even though I don't get the WB on campus...
Rogue | October 20, 19:05 CET
Spikecam21 | October 20, 19:10 CET
phlebotinin | October 20, 19:25 CET
...and even if he turns it down, Masters and the rest of the supporting cast should be able to carry a semi-new show, right?
Jonas | October 20, 20:16 CET
jewel | October 20, 20:22 CET
Because you have to keep your face out there or people will forget you. I just got back from grocery shopping and I saw SMG's face on two different magazine covers, and neither of them mentioned the Grudge (at least on the cover). She knows how to keep herself in the public's eye. How often do you see DB on a mag cover since Angel finished? I don't recall one, which is why he's doing the smart thing and going to a con and at least getting some publicity.
| October 20, 20:28 CET
If DB really wanted to distance himself and TRULY get on with his movie carrer I seriously doubt he would be involved with the Halloween event. Unless he and his manager thinks that since the event is in a different country, it is a different issue...
...but they what do I know.
Jonas | October 20, 20:38 CET
TaraDi | October 20, 20:57 CET
Sorry Vanekl but every vibe i've seen from SMG AND Joss was that they both thought it was time to move on. Very few shows go on beyond seven seasons, it becomes very difficult to come up with fresh ideas, plots start repeating, every character has slept with every other character and you start contradicting earlier events and facts.
I've never seen anything to suggest Joss was unhappy with SMG leaving. And DB's line since the cancelation of Angel is what an actor would say in Hollywood. Him going around blubbing "They cancelled my show!" would just label him a loser and he'd never work again. It's like a guy getting dumped. You never let on you're devastated, you say "She was okay, but I was thinking of moving on anyway..."
And as for Angel S6? Well, if there's no Wes, nor Fred, no Spike...
I assume it would cost big money to restart the show, get what cast you can back, new writers, new sets, new supporting cast and so on. All for a show that has already run for five years and would only have one or two seasons more at most? Would it be worth it?
Far better to go with a brand new show and hope for another seven seasons. With the success of shows like Lost and Desperate Housewives hopefull the tide is turning away from reality crap and back towards (quality) scripted shows. Joss has a track record, they should be queueing up at his door begging him to make a new show!
zz9 | October 20, 20:58 CET
He also knows it's in his best interest to draw all the complaints away from his stars and take the bullet himself. A true leader knows that he takes the blame because he was given ultimate responsibility. The buck stopped with Joss. I've never seen Joss complain or whine (in print) about one of the people in his employ, or a decision that one of his people made. That wasn't just an accident.
| October 20, 22:08 CET
I also think that SMG was quite aware that the show was magic, although being immersed in it nearly every day for 7/8 years probably made it a little harder to be aware than for us folk sitting back in our couches lapping it up. I personally think 7 years is more than enough commitment for any one person to give. How many jobs have we each held for that space of time, giving the same effort day-in day-out? Even if I completely agreed with you about the relative allocation of "blame" for the end of BtVS, I'd still say she made the right choice for herself. It's not selfish to want to try to fulfill one's own ambitions.
SoddingNancyTribe | October 20, 22:17 CET
Firefly Flanatic | October 20, 22:23 CET
I believe SMG was well aware of the "what she had" with this show. Seven years. I don't care what you do for a living, after seven years (usually sooner), you start to want a change. And remember, DB's been there since the beginning too. Now, you definitely can argue that he didn't have the long days and the work that Buffy did in the early seasons of Buffy - she's the lead. However, he didn't walk away from Angel - the network did. Had the show been renewed for a 6th season, he would have been there.
I see nothing wrong with either of them wanting to now reap the benefits that can come with having been leads on successful shows. Everyone wants to advance, move-up, in their careers. It's understandable that actors, by the nature of what they do, would want different characters to explore and different situations in which to hone their craft.
Angela | October 20, 22:26 CET
As for the Angel thing...sure, everyone moved on by now. And who could blame them for going for a movie career? At this point David could be the next Harrison Ford, as well as the next Michael Biehn, it's too early to tell. But right now he is very busy so I doubt he would come back. I think most of the other actors would (and possibly writers too, since they've been bouncing all over the place and never staying long in their new shows)
But even if the WB sincerely wants this to happen I doubt it will. I think the ship has sailed. Try for the TV movies with the actors that are willing. You're not going to get Sarah or David right now. And they've been leads for years. Give Spike, Willow, Faith, Giles, etc, a shot with their own stand-alone movies.
EdDantes | October 21, 00:01 CET
*I feel like an idiot*
ShotgunWes | October 21, 00:54 CET
My thoughts prezackly on the matter, EdD. DB and SMG are busy with other projects; Joss is working on Serenity post-production and focusing on a potential trilogy should the first film do well; David Fury's on Lost and the rest of the writers, cast and crew are scattered to the four winds.
Straight up, the WB blew it. Season 5 ratings were going up and the critics were near-unanimous in their praise. The night was stable and Angel was even bringing in some new viewers to Smallville (me, for one), who only tuned in because it came on right before AtS (oopsy, I bailed post-cancellation -- guess a lot of us did, huh). They had a good thing. We even told them -- with honest, genuine, unsolicited feedback numbering in the mega-thousands -- that they had a good thing, and they still cancelled the show.
Now they're sorry? Boo freakin' hoo. I feel no sympathy/empathy/com-
passion whatsoever for their craptacular ratings. The wheel turns, my friends, and they now reap what they sowed. Like the pretty lady once sang, you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. If we get movies, that's great -- as long as Joss wants to do them, he can find good writers who know the characters to help him, and the same people get cast. There is only one Angel, and if DB won't come back to TV, then tell the stories of the willing and available that can be told without him.
Honestly though, I'd rather have a big screen Angel film, and to that end I think it's more immediately important to support Serenity when it comes out -- both for its own sake and to increase Joss's power and prestige in Holly-wood. Bankability is the only way we as fans are going to get the kind of Buffy and Angel adventures that are worthy of Joss's huge imagination and our (justifiably, after what Joss and Co. were able to accomplish on a TV budget) elevated expectations.
If the WB was really serious about this, I think we'd be hashing over some genuine, out-front discussion on their end. Instead, all we get are these bubbles of desperation popping on the surface of their drowning pool. Sad, really.
Wiseblood | October 21, 01:03 CET
[side point: this is completely conjecture, but I think that if us fans would have made as much a fuss about SMG being nominated for an Emmy as the fuss we made when Angel got cancelled she may have thought twice about searching for kudos elsewhere. I blame that on myself, as well. I have to learn to give more credit instead of lurking in the background.]
Second, after reading my comments above, you're all right, I was being too harsh. I was being selfish and melodramatic, and I apologize.
SoddingNancyTribe: I agree the quality was uneven in the latter years of BtVS, but I'm not going to throw bricks at a show that is only occasionally brilliant. (And I'm not suggesting that you are throwing bricks. I just get upset when naysayers denigrate work that is good enough to have enriched my life--there is such little of it that I need to say something.) 'ME' still respected its audience, and still tried its best, even if Joss wasn't able to expend the same amount of time as he did the first 5 seasons. I wouldn't trade a single episode of season 6 or 7 for 95% of the swill you can find on TV now. Maybe I'm being too emotional, but I consider it my honor to be allowed to see a sub-par 'ME' show that JW was twice-removed from. These shows have made me a better person. They've made me think quite a bit about myself. I know I may be offending people by using some strong language here but I recently made a vow to myself that I would no longer be silent. We can make a difference.
It's post-Prophecy Girl for me now. I'm out, so to speak. There is evil in this world, and I can do more than just sit back on my couch and watch TV.
I respectfully disagree with you: I think it is selfish to fulfill only your own ambitions, but I think selfishness is healthy at times. In fact, I think selfishness is what built the USA to be such a great country. But I think there is a healthy balance one must make between your own goals in life and what you can do for your community. I would rather not know the people who only are out for themselves, that aren't willing to make some sacrifice for those around them.
But more than that, I think that the chances of SMG finding something as special as BtVS is so remote that in the long run it is in her best interest, too, to have stuck with it. Some of my proudest moments have come after I wanted to give up and go find work elsewhere, but I didn't. Looking back on everything, I'm glad I persevered. It wasn't easy, but I'm probably a better person for it, or at least I like to think so.
Look at the work SMG has picked to work on. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I haven't seen a lick of her work post-buffy that holds a candle to what she had. (mixing metaphors.) Please correct me if you see anything that comes close to the quality of BtVS that she has done. I believe the Grudge will be out in a couple of days and maybe there will be some good acting, but I expect more than just good acting from the shows that I watch. I expect a message, a message that needs to be told. BtVS spoiled me that way.
blwessels: I'm sorry if I came across as nasty, that was certainly not my intention. I recently had dinner with an old friend who is slipping away mentally. It's sad to watch, especially because she was once a great person. I see Buffy slipping farther and farther away, and it means so much to me. It means more to me now than when it aired, and I want to support it. Sometimes I get too emphatic and melodramatic and it comes off as aggressive and negative. Again, if I offended you I'm sorry. I will try to choose my words more carefully.
Angela: DB has said a number of times that he will not do made-for-TV movies, something the WB has said at least twice they would like to see happen.
I have nothing against actors who want to move up, assuming that 'moving up' means leaving the community a better place than what it was. If 'moving-up' just means making more money, or working fewer hours, then I'm going to be strictly non-PC and say phoey on that. And, yes, I'm aware that that is harsh. I believe that we all have choices, and obligations, that the easiest path is not necessarily the best. I'm one of those stinking Republicans that believes in personal responsibility, NOT to just profit personally, but to do what's best for your community, too.
That's not always possible, but in this case I believe it is. (Go ahead, if anybody wants to throw anything at me I can take it, at least for a little while.) Emma is more to me than just a gifted actress, she also has the courage to stand up for what she believes in. And so (getting back on track) I can't help but think that anything that SMG or DB does will just ring hollow compared to what they could be doing. I think that Joss's messages need to be heard, and SMG and DB do a very good job of sharing them. Like I said, I'm selfish. I want to hear his stories, and I'd prefer if my favorite actors did the storytelling. But I also believe that SMG and DB would benefit their community the most by sharing their skills with Joss and company, instead of with a cartoon dog, for example. The way I think about it, if SMG or DB decided to reverse course and choose to do TV again with Joss they may not make as much money, they may not receive as many accolades, and they may have to work more hours, but when it's their turn to take the final stake in the heart I can't help but think that they would also be proud of what they accomplished because they would know that they fought the good fight, not just until their current contract expired, or when they got tired, but they gave everything they had and then some.
I'm an idealist, I know, but I'm not going to let this world decompose with nary a word being said. Not today at least.
Just my opinions, so be gentle.
| October 21, 01:07 CET
kdeweb | October 21, 01:24 CET
Firefly Flanatic | October 21, 01:47 CET
In general, I would absolutely agree with the statement. In this particular situation...just don't see it. Let me put it this way: If I were reading the last 5 seasons of BtVS in some kind of memoir writing by Joss as to what he would have had on television if SMG hadn't walked away...well, then I'd be pretty indignant too. Because I believe in the message and stories that were told here, just as much as you do. But when you consider that BOTH JW and SMG felt that the stories had been told....well, they've been told. Further, as much as I am addicted to the genius work that Joss creates, and as important as I think the themes are...it's not as though she singlehandedly stopped feeding the hungry of the world to go be a 2-hour a day perfume sampler in the mall.
It's funny that you talk about your work and being glad you persevered. I'm about to move on after, huh, 7 years. And the community of investigators I manage and support would frankly be better off if I stayed, at least in the short term. But it's time. When you keep doing something long after you have lost interest in it, it drags everyone around you down, and it affects your own performance. I'm getting out before that happens. I think in a lot of ways she was ready to leave before S7, but she stayed until the stories were told. I think it's safe to say that her desire to "spread her wings" goes far beyond making more money. It's about personal fulfillment. She wants to tackle new projects, for the creative challenge, not just the money (said as if I know her). And the rest of the world is left with syndication and DVDs, so these stories can still be told to the uninitiated.
vanekl - DB has said a number of times that he will not do made-for-TV movies, something the WB has said at least twice they would like to see happen.
Well, that's not a season renewal. I'm saying if they were able to announce that the WB had signed on for S6 right after the 100th episode, instead of announcing that they were canceled, he would have been there. As stinging as that little announcement was for all of us....we didn't WORK there. And after being treated that way, why wouldn't he want to pursue other projects instead of doing the TV movies for a network that only offered the movies up after mass fan outrage and a new season of crap ratings?
What would have been satifying for you? What could DB and SMG have done for you to feel they selflessly gave all they could to the community? I don't think it's fair to expect they stay in these roles until they have to worry about one of their high kicks leading to a fall and broken hip, assuming of course they could have. :)
You've found a good place to woe the loss of these shows. We're all getting each other through. Stick around and keep up the debate. See, that was gentle right?
(edited to add the word "agree" the the first freaking sentence. How did I miss that in my read through? Sigh.)
[ edited by Angela on 2004-10-20 23:56 ]
Angela | October 21, 01:53 CET
Since I agree with nearly everything you write, it seems churlish to pick over the disagreements. I'll limit myself to a couple of observations.
First, I'm glad you noticed I wasn't throwing bricks. My point was that BtVS was probably reaching the end of its natural life-span by S7. JW appeared to be more interested in other, newer projects. Just as the actors have ambitions in other directions, so too did Joss.
Second, with respect, you managed to subtly change what I said. I wrote "It's not selfish to want to try to fulfill one's own ambitions," which you paraphrased as "I think it is selfish to fulfill only your own ambitions" with the key addition of the word "only". If each of us was "only" out for our own ambitions, without heed for the communities of which you rightly speak, then I, as a stinking Democrat, would be less-than happy. From my perspective, however, SMG (and DB and the others) contributed 7 or 8 years of their working lives to these shows that we love. I don't doubt that SMG, for one, could have jumped ship after 3 seasons to a more lucrative gig if money was all she cared about. I truly believe she appreciated (and, judging from some of her answers in the overflow of recent interviews) still appreciates the marvel and wonder that was the writing on BtVS. But seven years?! That's an awfully long time, as I tried to say above. How much can we demand of people who, in the end, have their own life to think about?
Finally, you may ultimately be proven right that the actors will never do as quality work again (although I'm keeping an eye out for "Southland Tales" among others). But should we deny them the opportunity to look for it? Sacrilege to say so on this board, but Joss isn't the only genius writer out there. Some already exist. Others have yet to be discovered. Let's give SMG a shot at finding another pairing that brings light to our screens. In the end, I think she did give everything she had, at that time, to BtVS. She was ready to move on, and, whether you agree or not, I think Joss was too.
As I said, I agree with most of what you said, which was both eloquent and passionate, and for which I thank you.
SoddingNancyTribe | October 21, 01:53 CET
But the writing is on the wall, and even though I'm an idealist, I also grudgingly--pardon the pun-- know that it's time to move on. Buffy is over, and so is Angel. I've learned to treasure what I was given. When Debra Winger passes away in 'Terms of Endearment' and Shirley MacLaine says what a fool she was for wishing it was over quickly for her daughter, I feel the same way for Buffy.
Do not go gentle into that good night...
I realize it's gone and will likely never come back, I just think it was premature. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. There's no profit in arguing either side more, but the discourse has been helpful to me.
(And to think I could have been watching TV all this time instead of putting words to paper!)
| October 21, 03:09 CET
I'm not happy they're both gone either, but Angel was harder for me to accept than Buffy, as there seemed to be far more to say. I actually don't think that they are gone and "will never come back". They have simply ended in their original forms. I truly believe more is to come. We'll all just have to wear out our DVDs til then. :)
You won't be found silly here for getting so worked up by a TV show. I'm still relatively new around here, and it's the first time I ever found a forum where I could talk about these shows I hold in such high esteem and are so close to my heart to this extent. It's meant a lot. Everyone else gives me that "okayyyy...Buffy?....You're weird." look. I get those same chills every time I re-watch the series and when I expect that I won't get choked up on my 10th viewing of the same episode...I'm always wrong.
(And to think I could have been working all this time... :)
Angela | October 21, 03:20 CET
As to whether SMG's heart was in it at the end I guess it wasn't (a look of slow understanding comes across his face). So I guess it was presumptuous for me to expect her to just "get over it," huh? Can I at least whine a little about her priorities not being my priorities? The world should revolve around me, the way I see it. But I guess some of my rantings have already given that fact away.
[BTW, I enjoyed Buffy's message more than Angel's, but I thought the quality of acting on Angel was better -- AD and AA turned into world-class actors in season 5.]
| October 21, 04:26 CET
Oh hello, I'm on board there. In my little utopia I'm totally with you - Joss should keep developing these stories forever, ALL the actors should stay there, until *I* have decided they may move on...and my favorite shade of lipstick should never get dropped, even if I'm the only one who wears it, or eyeshadow, or perfume, or...okay now I'm into all the girlie problems.
And the work thing - I understand now. My situation's a little different. Wanted all the responsibilities - yearned for them - doing them not paying off here. But it's certainly been good for me because I can take all that with me.
Welcome to Whedonesque (did you lurk as long as I did before posting? Cuz I lurked a long time.) Once you start chatting here, it's hard to stop. :)
Angela | October 21, 05:00 CET
Howard Hughes.
In the sixties he wanted the local TV station to show old movies. They wouldn't, so he bought the station. They played old movies.
He loved a certain flavor of Baskin Robbins (I think) ice cream. They stopped making it. They would make some specially for him, as long as he ordered a 'batch'. A 'batch' being approxomatley a semi trailer full. He ordered a batch. (Then a few weeks later decided to change his regular flavor anyway....)
If I were, say, Bill Gates, I could have just called Fox and said "Forget the WB, I want to see season six. How much? Take a check?"
zz9 | October 21, 05:26 CET
Gunn 2 N's | October 21, 05:41 CET
The more I thought about that the more I came to realize that we are always at war, maybe not with a guy wearing a towel on his head, but with ourselves, or other people who would rather take the easy way out by climbing over you, for one reason or another. I'd keep telling myself that it didn't matter, that they'll get theirs in the end, but it does matter. It defines us. I tried to avoid conflicts but now I realize they can actually be beneficial. Help me build character. I don't want to build too much character too quickly, because the process hurts and takes too much time and I'm lazy, I'll be the first to admit, but I like where I am now. Wish I did it sooner. I don't like to look for a fight, and I hope I'm not considered pugnacious, but I want to try to stand up for what's right, not because it's the right thing to do, but because I'm selfish and I would like the world I live in to be a pleasant place, and in order to get that I may have to make my voice heard, or do what's not popular. I can hope that others respect that. Sometimes they do.
You're right about just going on and on. I'm a chat-a-thon tonight. As Willow said:
WILLOW: (tears running down her face) [snip] "Oh, I'm the king of everything, I'm better than you!" [snip]
This is probably self-indulgent prattling on like this. Bizarre mood. Who knew reality could make you trip? Best kept secret, this is. Must...take...smaller...dose...next...time.
[There's some political commentary above. Best to not touch that -- it will just turn religious and nobody wins those. I hope I didn't offend anybody.]
| October 21, 06:16 CET
It's a great to have discussions and disagreements with people who have a real opinion and point of view, something this site is, IMHO, known for.
zz9 | October 21, 15:22 CET