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November 09 2004

Angel final season DVD cover art (R1) at

Spike instead of Cordelia, as I expected.
Yep. Looks good, though not great.
How did I know Spike would be on the cover? It's beautiful (I do like the color scheme, and David looks great), but I wish another character had been put on it. It's just not fair to the rest of the cast.
I certainly think that the rest of the cast deserved better, but, from a marketing standpoint, I understand the decision. And, being a Spike fan, I'm not exactly unhappy. I would have been surprised with Cordelia on the cover, but I would have thought Wesley and Illyria would have been more appropriate. I think I would have been happier with that solution.
I think it is the best cover for the Angel dvds. It isn't because Spike is on the cover either, although he does contribute as i am happy to see someone who ISN'T Cordy on the cover finally. I liked the colors and the layout as well. I still don't get why the hell they put Angel and Cordy on every damn cover. This is what i think that the covers should have been:
S1-Angel and Cordy (they were the only ones in the whole season)
S2-Angel and Darla (S2 was the season of Darla)
S3-Angel and Wesley (Wes was a huge part of S3, season of Wes!! Wes deserved a cover and never got one)
S4-Angel, Connor, Cordy (so much Connor/Cordy stuff, as much as i don't like it, they should've been on the cover)
S5-Group (for the last season, of both shows, it should have been a group shot. Angel, Wes, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Spike. S7's should have been Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Spike, Anya. But Spike hogged both covers. I like the covers, but would have preferred group shots. )
D'Hoffryn, Wow. I was thinking that exact thought earlier today, about who should've been on each season. Did you read my mind?

BTW, if anyone wants to know the discs for Buffy season 7 are Giles, Willow, Buffy, Spike, Dawn, and Xander. In that order from discs 1-6.

[ edited by eddy on 2004-11-10 02:58 ]
how do you know that?
are there pictures? if so, please tell me where.
Also, WHY NO ANYA? She never got a disc, that is not right. Though i am happy that Giles finally got a second disc.
I always find myself thinking of the Angel covers and what they SHOULD have been, because the Angel covers are just so blah cause they were all Angel and Cordy, no change.
Someone with a review copy informed me. No, I haven't seen them but they're from the same photo shoot of Season 6 cause Willow has the blonde hair.

[ edited by eddy on 2004-11-10 03:04 ]
The Angel S7 cover looks identical to the slip-cover of the boxed sets of VHS tapes that have been available over here for a few months now - perhaps cutting back on the overhead by reusing artwork?
I actually agree that Buffy season 7's cover should have focused on both her and Spike. The season was mainly about Buffy's leadership angst and superiority/inferiority complex,as well as Spike's hero journey. Most of the other characters were left as minor players (that's actually not a complaint.)

With that said Season 5's needed the ensemble, as attention was NOT focused all that much on Spike, who was imo under-used. The other characters are all equally deserving of a place, if not more so.

But hey it's a neat cover nonetheless.
Is there any praticular reason no new publcity type photos were done for season 7 of Buffy. It had a nimber of new cast members who deserved some publicity (I'm talking Wood and Andrew here.) Plus we could get a pic of eye-patch Xander, and Buffy in that cool coat she was wearing a lot (most notably in her "fight with Caleb in "touched")
R2 cover for AtS S5 is the same. Amazon UK has had the cover up since 5th November. The picture is not as clear or large but certainly looks very similar!

[ edited by catalyst2 on 2004-11-10 03:30 ]
Faith should have been on a disk! And just a random thouht, why is Spike on the last disk on Season 3 when he's only on one episode?
Nice cover - the hormonal part of me is left sighing and drooling with a little internal dialogue rambling around in my head: "Spike hot. Angel hot. Spike hot. Angel hot"

And I agree with what palehorse said, it makes sense as a marketing decision, but as a fan of more than the yumminess that is Spike and Angel, I would have preferred to see other members of the cast as well. As the final season, it just makes sense to me to have Wesley, Fred, Lorne and Gunn on there as well. Ah well, I'll just return to my internal dialogue.
tI like it. I understand the decision of include Spike in the cover (marketing).
I like the R1 covers of Buffy. They`re dinamics, with more characters than Angel ones (i like them too, in their own style).

I don`t like the S7 cover. Yes, put Spike in it is a right decision, but with no S7 promos...
I looks alright.
I wonder if the R2 cover will just feature Angel as the previous DVD boxsets did.
It will be interesting to see if the R2 art changes this time by having Spike's presence in the show. I'd prefer a group shot too though.
From this it would seem that the discs are just going to have pictures of buildings on them, rather than character shots, is this normal for the R1 releases.

I hope the R2 box just has Angel on it, as that's all that has been on the previous boxes. I predict R2 getting a dark red box with a a picture of Angel in the foreground.

catalyst2 the dvd itself, let alone the R2 cover art, isn't on amazon UK yet.
The Angel discs never had any character shots on them. The s1 discs spelled out A-N-G-E-L, plus some buildings in the background. The rest of the seasons just have the buildings plus quotes from episodes (the s5 ones look like they will be the same way too).

Spike and Angel look hot. So I'm happy. There will probably be a cast photo on the back of the box at least.
Ghost Spike
This link
takes you to the cover art for the VHS box for AtS S5. In Australia, I think the VHS box art and the DVD box art for AtS has been the same so I thought it might be for R2 too.
I think this cover art is the best from the 'Angel' series. This season dealt with the conflicts that existed between Angel and Spike. Furthermore, it was Spike that caused Angel to question his real purpose and, in doing so, actually made him see the big picture. So, I think it's only appropriate for these two characters to be displayed. Also, like the brighter color theme.
I love this cover art - of course since I am a Spike fan and I think he was very important in season 5 I feel fine with him being on the cover. I love the colors, I love this season, I can't wait to get it!

If I were to change anything, as previously mentioned by other posters, I also would have liked to see group cast photos on the final DVD seasons of Buffy and Angel, but overall I like the packaging for these DVDs.

Yes Angela, my mind is running wild too - "Spike hot. Angel hot. Spike hot. Angel hot"
I'm happy and I do thonk Spike belongs on the cover with Angel. It would be nice to have a small background shot of the group though. Still if FOX is smart they will keep Spike on any future promotional material. Thats why I find it so hard to accept that a Spike movie or spinoff wasn't done. I still hope that Joss will consider it in the future, but until then or if ever, I'll take Spike on anything they want to put him on.......

And yes.....SPIKE HOT....very very HOT.......
Hang on, they're both bright orange. Wolfram and Hart offer some sort of fake tan service for vampire employees?
Simon - Maybe that necrotising glass allows some kind of faux tan to develop?
Catalyst2 - Yes! see there is an answer for everything.
O.K.; I look at this kinda stuff, you know, covers and such, to get a tinkling of what they were thinking--of why Spike was introduced as an important new character that they then proceeded to underwrite and I admit after finding out JM wasn't doing a commentary--I didn't expect him on the cover...or maybe a little bitty pic in the panorama. And now, I gotta admit...I don't get it.

What looks strange to me...and no one has mentioned this yet--is that the pics are almost of an equal size. It makes it look like a dynamic duo--when really only Angel had a specific arc and Wes and Fred and Charles had minor ones. Spike, I love him--absolutely throw down worship what JM did in BTVS5 6 & especially 7.

But...he didn't co star ATS5. On the clock he might have had as much time as say, he did in BTVS5..and what he did have did not contribute to the storyline. Outside of, say, Hellbound as the exception.

Here's the test. If you were to edit all his bits--which mainly added up to reaction shots--out of ATS5--the story might lose some decoration...but the line itself would be uneffected.

His character commented ON the action--was not INVOLVED in it. Every editor knows--that's the kind of stuff that gets cut first as dead weight in a project. Now, in playing my game, you have to throw out eps that broke the characters canon as dead weight too--like the thing with Dana--that ep was like the writers had never seen any Spike anywhere doing anything--come on, this guy who has hung around with a woman suffering from insanity for 126 years, someone who in BTVS2 even as unsouled demon recognized the pain Dru went through as the result of insanity (yes crazy is painful)someone who knows how to recognize an epsisode, who could EASILY recognize symtoms of severe dissasociation and more importantly know how HOW TO RESPOND TO IT; plus this is the same guy who studied Slayers as his first calling AND worked with potential slayers and how to handle young girls in crisis for a year--we saw how he gently he questioned the rattled monk at the mission and we are expected to believe this same guy COULDN'T SEE CRAZY DANA THE SLAYER COMING FROM A HALF MILE AWAY? Please. That one gets tossed for not paying attention to character and so is rendered null and void.

That ep tried to pretend Spike hadn't learned the lesson he had in BTVS7--and instead of progressing the character from where he was at the end of BTVS7; a position that would have put him into competition with Angel's role in his own series they deliberatly reguritated some version of learning humility--and if he hadn't humbled himself on that cross--what would? So throw that ep out and of course throw out TGIQ for reasons obvious and throw out 'Destiny'--because this guy who learned a powerful lesson about mistreating women by using sex as a weapon for control--this demon who went to get WILLIAM'S soul back--the soul of a good man--is gonna ignore Harmony when she asks him to stop and when she fights back he SLUGS HER and leaves her crumpled in a corner??? Not to mention this is the first time he is having sex with his soul and come on, Spike/William is a romantic, always has been painted as a romantic and he's gonna be the crude brute with HARMONY? Please. So throw that out too, and the writers may consider themselves punished in my game; for not paying attention to the series next door. Do that, and all you have left of Spike in the series is reaction shots. Comic or concerned but all reaction all the time.

Even in the finale, Angel sent him after the baby--not one of the members of the circle of thorns. If you were to remove his bits, the essential story remains uneffected. Angel had already written the baby off--if Spike hadn't rescued him--it would have been moot. Pick any ep and see if that's not so.

(Oh--except for 'Hole in the World'--the discussion about the Caveman vs astroguys was integral to the moral construct in that ep--and maybe it worked cuz Joss wrote it and he knew both characters and what he was doing.)

I was glad to hear David and James admit in England to wanting more real story interaction...but what this all leads to is REALLY, my real, REAL point is: man, Wes threw down last season. Fred and Wes THREW DOWN big time brilliant work. Especially Wes in the mad little scene post Fred's death where he's hopping about in his office.

Love James, love Spike--he totally deserved and should be on BTVS7--even elevated to a costarring postition with Buffy; he really helped carry the BTVS7...but no way did he co-star with Angel.

No way.

I know I went on, I'm just playing, with ideas and stuff the way I do and I gotta admit the cover doesn't really bother me (sometimes I just like to hear myself talk)--but...I could see how it might bother other serious Angel fans.

Marketing schmarketing
Good catch, Simon. Well, Joss always said he wasn't too good with math. Guess we found another weakness in spotting those tan lines.

That's right, Joss. We're on to you ;)
I don't understand this serious Angel fans phrase. Everyone sees themselves in some special club where they are the real fans. It's a shame. Somebody who started from the first episode is at the same level for me with someone who started from episode 53. They have the same rights . I started with "City of " but I don't see myself prior to the others.

To me, Angel season 5 was a Angel/Spike show. Just like season one was Angel/Doyle/Cordy/Wesley, season two was Angel/Darla, season three was Angel/Cordy/Wesley, season four was Angel/Connor/Wesley ... I loved to see whole cast or these pairings on the covers but I absolutely adore season 5 cover. Since video box set was almost idendical, I'm suprised for seeing so many suprised reactions. It was obvious from the moment WB made the announcement of Spike's arrival that it was going to be a two-vampire show. Spike maybe new to AtS but he's not a newcomer in the universe. He had a great interaction with Angel through the season, whole season.

Cordy was in one episode and then ME never mentioned her again. Wesley has given very little until the last 6-7 episodes. Illyria is a new comer to the club and even I adore her, there's no way I can see her on the cover unless it's a group shot. Gunn had a good story.

Also, I'd much preferred seeing the other characters on discs instead of buildings of L.A.

[ edited by pelinxf on 2004-11-10 19:37 ]
David B and JAmes Marsters have huge fan bases, so if it makes the dvd sell a bit more, it's good marketing, I hope season five sells really well, studios look at numbers, be good for future angel/buffy projects.
I think its beautiful
Oh boy...well..the thing that can be tough with discussions in threads like this, is 'tone of voice' when writing--and often we are broken down to explaining what a single word might mean to one person but opens a different volume of experiance for someone else.

We have to always assume these discussion are always a matter of opinion--but never, ever, would I discount someone elses opinion just because they might be a newer member of 'the family.'

You can be a 'serious Angel fan' and be someone who just began watching last week. 'Serious' means to me, more a level of emotional comittment to the lives of these characters and the vibration these stories put out to the world and never as an exclusionary term. Regardless of time put in--serious is someone who examines these eps as one would a book for a thesis and/OR feels these stories as a living thing in the world.

That we come to different conclusions about the subject matter is inevetable--I would prefer to read an emotional statment backed up with examples from tableu or text--but emotion and how something makes one feel is valid in itself and certainly the best guide as to how a thing is working.

Obviously, I have great problems understanding ATS5--but that will never stop me from a deep respect for Joss. If anything it compels me read other peoples opinions so I can better understand part of a picture others see but I don't at this point in time. ATS5 could look very different to me in a year. And I admit, Joss going global in his support for Kerry (which I loved)--turned my head a bit, to re-examine 5 in light of his liberal status in a public way. (I thought ATS5 was about restore the monarch and the elements of destiny and divine connection that royal elites use as validation--now I admit, in light of Joss going public--I gotta look at ATS5 again, to see if I missed something)

'Serious' for me is an ongoing examination, and seriously everyone who comes to this site six months after the big bang seems to fit that description. The snobbery I exhibited (cough) was more along the lines that after an examination of the eps any Angel fan would come to 'my' conclusions and so by default becoming serious. I can admit that.(now you can't hear my voice but I'm chuckling lightly at myself) If I can be accused of snobbery, I think it might be the tunnel vision of the bookworm--but NEVER, ever from trying to invalidate anyone as a lesser member of club with time served as equal to money in the bank. But even as a bookworm--I love discussing the book, the ideas with other people,and even though I can admit to being something of a zealot--I don't enjoy living exclusively with what exists only in my own head. So.

Serious is a state of mind, not a matter of time.
BforBeth , sorry I should have made it clear. I know you weren't meaning this, it was quite obvious from your post. I was adressing some part of the fandom who are known with their "I was here first" attitude. It's bothering me for a time, the phrase just reminded me of some of their arguments. That's all.
BforBeth well said
Deserve it or not, doesn't make a great deal of difference to me in this case.

Spike is my favourite character from both series, therefore as far as i'm concerned he can go on this DVD box cover or any other.

Hero worship can clarify matters considerably! ;)
O.K.; I look at this kinda stuff, you know, covers and such, to get a tinkling of what they were thinking

I would say this is probably not the best way to understand story decisions. From a marketing/business standpoint, sure, this cover is indicative of the same reasons the WB made a big deal about Spike's return and promoted it to death, and why they were more willing to renew the show with the addition of Spike. Spike was a hugely popular character on BtVS with a large fanbase, and his face sells a hell of a lot of merchandise. But from a story and character standpoint? Not so much. Though, Joss Whedon did call Spike Angel's greatest "ingenue", so in that sense, his inclusion on the cover with Angel makes sense =).

But...he didn't co star ATS5. On the clock he might have had as much time as say, he did in BTVS5..and what he did have did not contribute to the storyline. Outside of, say, Hellbound as the exception.

That being said, I would have to disagree here. Spike's character, IMO, contributed a great deal to Angel's storyline, which on a show called Angel, ends up being a fairly central/pivotal role. No, Spike didn't have much of a storyline of his own, despite the fairly large amount of screentime he got in the first half of the season, but that's b/c his function was largely in illuminating and influencing Angel, rather than himself. He was also functionally Angel's sidekick in the 2nd half of the season, backing him up from episode 12 onwards. A character's influence on other characters and storylines is not necessarily measurable in screentime or direct actions onscreen.

throw out eps that broke the characters canon as dead weight too--like the thing with Dana--that ep was like the writers had never seen any Spike anywhere doing anything--come on, this guy

I love Spike to death but I don't agree with your assessment of him and therefore don't agree in the least that those episodes (which I consider fairly crucial Spike AND Angel episodes in S5) should be thrown out. IMO Spike's character did progress through BtVS S5-7, yes..but "Damage" continued that progression, rather than regressing him. IMO Spike as we first met him (and even as William) was the kind of guy whose focus and sympathies lay heavily on himself and the select few in his regard - the ones he loved. As a human, his mother and Cecily (the others he dismisses as "vulgarians"). As a soulless, pre-Sunnydale vampire, Drusilla (and likely, Angelus, though that was a sticky relationship). In Sunnydale, his circle of regard was primarily focused on Buffy, then Dawn, Joyce, and to a much lesser extent the Scoobies. He could be very perceptive and caring when he chose to be, but for the most part, he didn't choose to extend his regard beyond those select few. As a souled vampire, he gained IMO both a high level, abstract understanding of good/evil, accompanied by general regret for his actions and a strong desire never to repeat those actions, and a specific sense of remorse for specific people that he had hurt (ie, Buffy). He was never going to do evil again, he was going to help people (when prompted to - left to his own devices in early S7 and early AtS S5, he wasn't particularly proactive about it), but it was still fairly impersonal for him, except in specific cases. LMPTM, IMO, showed that there was a whole middle ground between the abstract notion of good he now subscribed to and the specific sympathies for the people he cared about that he still had yet to develop into (as did "Soul Purpose" with his amusing, but fairly callous rescues). "Damage" showed him bridging that gap and understanding how his actions affected people he didn't directly intend to harm, showed both his blindness towards those he didn't choose to care about (ie, Dana when he thought she was just a possessed girl) and his greater introspection and understanding at the end of the episode. The fact that Dana was *not* one of his victims I thought was a brilliant plot point, since IMO his learning to associate her pain with that he had caused to so many others was a step forward for him. I love Spike to death and thought that he was indisputably good in S5 (and S7 BtVS), but he still had a core self-centeredness in his perception of the world that he grew increasingly out of in AtS S5. I don't think there was anything in the end of BtVS S7 that indicated that he had already made those steps, and one strong piece of evidence (LMPTM) that he hadn't, so I don't think "Damage" required any sort of regression on his part except a certain amount of blind stubbornness that was only natural when he was around Angel. Angel regressed a little when Spike was around as well.

And yeah, IMO Spike's failure to recognize what was really going on with Dana made sense. He jumped to a conclusion before he ever saw her about demon possession, and then didn't bother to pay enough attention to her (as opposed to keeping on guard and assessing her fighting style) to change the conclusion. As for knowing how to respond to the dissociation, he tended to apply a certain degree of practicality and affection towards Dru that wouldn't really have worked on Dana because they didn't have that kind of relationship and because Dana had specific reasons to target and attack him. I'm not sure how he could have responded to that more effectively. And did we ever really see him "handling young girls in crisis", aside from his awkward (though sweet) attempts to reassure Dawn in S5 BtVS? He seemed more the teacher than the counselor for the Potentials to me. Besides, even though he probably should have made the leap between "slayer activation spell" and "unusually strong girl", he obviously had trouble processing the idea of a crazy Slayer (probably b/c the Council didn't allow too many of those running around for too long throughout history) and the slayer activation spell idea only came about a short time before his own traumatic death, so it doesn't surprise me much that he didn't think of it right away. "Crazy Slayer" is not exactly an everyday explanation for things, especially pre-"Chosen".

That ep tried to pretend Spike hadn't learned the lesson he had in BTVS7

Which lesson in particular?

reguritated some version of learning humility--and if he hadn't humbled himself on that cross--what would?

IMO, "Damage" wasn't Spike learning humility, it was him learning empathy for those he didn't love or directly harm. Learning about the unintentional consequences of his actions. The cross was atonement towards Buffy, primarily, and those he killed, secondarily. The cross wasn't absolute and complete understanding.

So throw that ep out and of course throw out TGIQ for reasons obvious

Why is this "of course"? I did think that there was a great deal of character regression going on in that episode, for both vampires, but IMO you don't throw it out on those grounds, you examine it to understand why the characters regressed the way they did.

and throw out 'Destiny'--because this guy who learned a powerful lesson about mistreating women by using sex as a weapon for control

Throw all of "Destiny" out because of the Harmony scene? Guy gets his body back all of a sudden, suddenly has all the physical sensations, the blood rushing around, the chemicals or whatever passes for hormones in a vampire's body...decides to get it on with his ex in a rather thoughtless and crude way to enjoy his new body (just as he snatched the blood out of Angel's hand to get his first taste after going without so long, and was reaching out to touch everyone around him) - an ex that he is long-accustomed to ignoring and not respecting anyway. No, not Spike's best moment, but IMO there's a lot in "Destiny" outside of that scene that is important.

Besides, IMO the AR in SR and the using Harmony in "Destiny" come from two entirely different mental places and, given the entirely different ways Spike views Buffy and Harmony? Sadly, I can totally see him not making the association at all.

consider themselves punished in my game; for not paying attention to the series next door.

Honestly, I think you're doing a bit of what you're accusing the writers of. Spike wasn't a perfectly evolved being by the end of BtVS S7. He'd never treated Harmony well, he was unnecessarily cruel to Robin Wood, a son of one of his victims...

Even in the finale, Angel sent him after the baby--not one of the members of the circle of thorns. If you were to remove his bits, the essential story remains uneffected. Angel had already written the baby off--if Spike hadn't rescued him--it would have been moot.

IMO there is an essential difference and implication for Angel's character between writing the baby off and sending someone to rescue him. One implies a wholesale embrace of the principle of "the ends justify the means" and acceptable losses, the other implies that he was still interested in helping the helpless and saving those who needed to be saved. Taking the Black Thorn down was the Fang Gang's new mission. Sending Spike after the baby indicated that they were not abandoning the old mission.

That being said, I don't necessarily disagree that Wes or Fred/Illyria were as crucial to the season as a whole (as opposed to the character of Angel specifically - IMO neither Wes nor Fred/Illyria were as pivotal to Angel's personal storyline as Spike). Or that Alexis Denisof, Amy Acker, or J. August Richards deserved to be on a DVD cover. I think for S5, Spike and Angel on the cover actually does make a certain amount of sense. But I do question the decision to put only Angel and Cordy on every DVD cover before that.

Ye gods, sorry for the long post. I can really get going when I'm on this topic.
The Fell Brethren leader was part of the Cirlce of the Black Thorn. Spike's mission was to save the baby and "dismember" the foster parents.
I just wanted to point that out, because Spike DID help take down the Circle and wasn't getting any credit for doing it.
Joss and FOX should just go all out and create a DVD box thats an exact, life size replica of Spike's head. That way it can come with a free supply of industrial strength hair bleech and a voice box that over and over says: "What can you shoe horn me in the best? CHEERS or CAPTAIN POWER?"
Hate to be the one to point out the obvious but the opinions about this DVD cover, i would imagine, would fall along the same lines as the individual's feelings on Spike being moved to the cast of Angel in the first place, if not their feelings about Spike period.

As i pointed out earlier in the thread, Spike is my main reason for loving the slayerverse, he is easily my favourite character and the one who's story i have been most interested in following. I'm naturally not going to have any real problem with seeing him on this cover. If however you don't like Spike or don't think he should have been on Angel in the first place then this will just be further salt rubbed into the wound.

Ultimately though i personally wouldn't have lost any sleep if Wes had been put on there, or Gunn, or Illyria (although some Fred lovers would no doubt had an issue with that). My point being, does it matter? Everyone has their favourite and least favourite character. Look at it this way, at least it wasn't Eve on the box with Angel ;)

Maybe every DVD boxset from both shows should have had a full cast shot on the cover to prevent this kind of debate but they didn't. Fox use the shot they think will sell the most sets and make them the most money. Hence Angel and Spike.

Not to sound rude but this really isn't a big deal. Get over it! ;)
You're absolutely right, Senior Partner. I never understood the fuss over the DVD boxes or the DVD discs or the advertising. It's marketing, and doesn't mean anything beyond that. IMO, what's important is what plays on your TV when you pop the discs into the player.

And you're definitely right that people's opinions on these covers are going to vary depending on their personal feelings about the characters.

I wonder what it would have looked like if they had a half Fred/half Illyria? Or Fred morphing into Illyria, like in NFA? If not too hokey, that might have been neat to have on the cover, and would encompass both parts of that character.

(Btw, sorry again about the really long post above, didn't realize it was going to get that long. However, I do want to say that the length of that had nothing to do with defending the decision to put Spike on the cover =). BforBeth just made some points about the character in S5 that I didn't agree with, and I'm particularly passionate about "Damage")
I'm an Illyria fan but I wouldnt' want her on the cover because it would be spoilery. The same goes for Dark Willow on the cover of season 6. Loved Dark Willow but was sad that the cover spoiled it for my friend whom I was introducing to the series.

I know this is beside the point but I just wanted to mention that I'm a member of a Wes/Fred shipper community where everyone loves Fred and Wesley but still most of them love Illyria too. And as far as I can tell, nobody in that community hates her. I think most Wes/Fred shippers still think there's some Fred inside Illyria, as I do. I just thought I'd mention that.

I'm a Wesley fan and would have loved to have seen him on one of these covers, and it would have been nice to see a photo of the entire cast, but I know it's all about marketing and I care more about what's on my TV when I pop in the disks than what's on the packaging. Although, I wish they had used the book-volume style of packaging like Firefly as opposed to the fold-out style. I do like the look of the disks though with the cityscape and quotes. I've always thought that was lovely. The only thing I noticed when I saw this box cover was that it reminded me of the first season box set. I would have gone for purple, personally. But it doesn't matter to me so much.
I couldn't personally care less whose picture is featured on the box art or discs within. As has been said, it has really nothing to do with the meaning or themes of the show itself (other than, possibly, what it "means" to the marketing departments). But I love it that you guys have spun a great discussion out of it. :). Great posts.
I've enjoyed reading these post so much - and teenes - I loved your long post so don't apologise, there is no reason, it was a wonderful well thought out post.

It is always fun to read people's thoughts on the shows, whether I agree with them or not. The thing I giggle about a bit is the way people react to the series - it seems many people feel various stories/charaqcters are the "downfall of the show" for various reasons. I'm not talking about just this thread but overall, I have been reading threads on Whedonesque for a year or so and it seems to me if you took all the negatives people posted and lined them up, the show would appear to be a total piece of s**t, funny because these shows are fantastic... just a weird thought I had. I personally think the only downfall Angel had as a show was it took a dip in season 4, I am "one of those people" who feel season 4 was not up to par; however with that said it is still a very good season and has many high points, it is a very good season in a group of wonderful seasons...still not bad if you ask me. I love reading everyone's thoughts, it's what makes Whedonesque such a great place to be!

The thing about Spike - I love the character. I was pissed when he was moved to Angel only because I felt it was such a manipulative move - the WB wanted fans of Buffy to go to Angel because they added Spike (I was already and Angel fan and was watching regardless) but the writers made Spike an important part of season 5, I loved what they did with his character and the interactions with Angel.

I love the cover, hey as a woman I know those two hot men will help sell many DVDs

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