"And working up a load of sexual tension and prancing away like a magnificent poof is truly thanks enough."
November 11
2004
Sarah reveals the real reasons why she quit Buffy.
She tells The Big Issue "I really didn't have any [input]. Maybe I should have, 'cause then we wouldn't have got so lost. It took me a while to work up the nerve to say something".
Simon
| BtVS
| 14:47 CET
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Not entirely sure I believe the authenticity of this.
Ghost Spike | November 11, 14:56 CET
Simon | November 11, 14:58 CET
I also want to say that the opinion that season 6 and 7 was not very Buffy is an opinion that a lot of fans have. But, she isn't a writer and shouldn't be the one deciding how the character is written. That's Joss' vision. She was just supposed to portray the character he (and the other writers) wrote and make that believable, which I think she did outstandingly. Watching Buffy in season 6 and 7, I would have never thought SMG wasn't into it or didn't approve.
Still, I really question the source of the quotage.
electricspacegirl | November 11, 14:59 CET
Ghost Spike | November 11, 15:02 CET
So who knows? But I'll go on the record as saying "I don't beleive the third word in the second sentence" - whatever that turns out to be.
giles (yes, it is my real name) | November 11, 15:06 CET
"Since 1996, when George Michael broke his silence to talk exclusively to the magazine, The Big Issue has become renowned for its exclusive celebrity interviews - stars from The Spice Girls and Kate Moss to Arnold Schwarzenegger and David Beckham have all been profiled in its pages. Guest editors have included artist Damien Hirst and author Irvine Welsh. The Big issue also condicts major interviews with key political figures."
Simon | November 11, 15:09 CET
rockchalkwatcher | November 11, 15:28 CET
What also struck me as curious was that the bit she said about challenge. If anything, I personally found Buffy to be a more challenging character in the later seasons... but then, I've felt that Gellar has always wanted to hold on to her character's season 3 persona which she can hardly be blamed for as Buffy became a lot more somber and embittered by the end of the series.
[ edited by NatashaLea on 2004-11-11 15:43 ]
Natashia | November 11, 15:44 CET
alien lanes | November 11, 15:54 CET
PMMJ | November 11, 15:56 CET
Madhatter | November 11, 16:04 CET
But lets's assume that these are factual comments made by Sarah. Is anything there really untrue or that surprising to read? I've always maintained that i personally felt seven years was enough and that had they gone an eighth season as a weekly show things would seriously have gone down hill. Madhatter's X Files comparison being a very good example of why you stop while you still have a quality product. Years eight and nine of the X Files somehow managed to ruin the entire series for me. Why shouldn't the star of the show feel the same way?
As for input and thinking that BtVS had stopped being BtVS, i've heard her say before that she felt too many of the aspects that made the show what it had been to begin with had been lost, that season six had altered the feel of the show too much and that season seven didn't do enough to restore it. In that i have to agree as well. I loved both the last two seasons for different reasons but they sure as hell weren't seasons one, two and three.
Again it could turn out that this is entirely fictional or that the quotes need to be read as part of the larger interview to be fully understood but i'm certainly not going to hold these thoughts against Sarah, because they really are not untrue.
The Watcher | November 11, 16:26 CET
In the meantime, I don't think the comments quoted by the BBC Buffy website are especially controversial. Gellar is not really saying anything new that she hasn't said before. It's long been known that she had some qualms about S6 and S7, as did some of the writers, some of the other actors, and a lot of the fans. Personally, I think both seasons were superb, but all the various opinions expressed about these two seasons are equally valid, and Gellar's are not anything to get too worked up about.
There is much debate about the amount of input an actor should have into the character she or he is playing. For myself, I would argue that, having played Buffy for so many years, Gellar probably knew as much about the character as anyone, and I don't think her suggestion that she might have been given more input is all that unreasonable. I don't think she is suggesting that she should have taken over control of the storyline, just that she had some opinions that she would like to have been able to express.
I agree with Madhatter wholeheartedly that the show ended at the right time. The decline of 'X-Files' was painful to observe and I would have hated BtVS to have befallen the same fate. There are those, of course, who think it already had, but as I have already mentioned, I liked the final two seasons. In fact, I think that S7, for all its faults, was quite possibly the best season the show ever managed (although not my favourite).
None of it really matters much now. The show is done and dusted and the people involved in making it have moved on. The bottom line for me is that Gellar, and everyone else involved, did a brilliant job across all 144 episodes. Gellar's personal views about the show might be interesting, but whether she felt she had lost sight of the character or not, or was tired of playing the role, it never showed in her performances. I think she was bloody superb and I still don't think she always gets the credit she deserved.
alien lanes | November 11, 16:32 CET
Thanks for that last comment. It was a point i had meant to include in my previous post but it totally slipped my mind. Sarah doesn't get enough credit for what she did for the show, she only ever seems to get the blame for the things she chose not to do, regardless of the legitimate reasons she may have had.
The Watcher | November 11, 17:26 CET
[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-11-11 15:32 ]
SeanValen | November 11, 17:31 CET
Harsh, harsh harsh I know. I love BtVS - its great, SMG is great in it (as are a whole stack of others too, let me hastily add) but to be honest, I don't care what she thinks of it. Turn up, do your part (literally), get paid and move on!
catalyst2 | November 11, 17:47 CET
Just a thought - Season 6 of Buffy gets alot of criticism (some even say Buffy should have ended after season 5- not my feeling), Season 4 of Angel also the same. Now some people love these seasons, some don't. I think they both have their moments but they fall under the normal high quality levels of these series. I have often thought that the reason this is so is because Joss was busy with Firefly and was just spread too thin. I know Joss wrote some episodes for these seasons and OMWF is exceptional and required 4 times the work that a normal episode would have, what he did is amazing to me. I don't know how many people run three shows at once like Joss did and I wonder if it was just too much and the existing shows did not receive the attention from him that they needed.
I love all the seasons and wouldn't have wanted to be deprived of any of them. Even in my least favorite seasons there are wonderful moments and highlights. The shows changed, the characters changed a bit, as real people do, but at their cores they kept their values (or returned to them).
Passion | November 11, 17:48 CET
Lioness | November 11, 17:58 CET
Season 7 was disappointing because at times the characters seemed to act more immature than the 15 year olds they were in seaon 1 - almost as if they hadn't experienced the previous 6 years.
From that perspective, I'd have to agree with SMG.
Ruadh | November 11, 18:10 CET
Makes Joss sound like an abuser or something.
Which rings way weird. SMG hated season 6 and has said so before, but usually her remarks are framed by saying Joss listened to her and agreed with her on some points, not yelled at her. Plus, SMG? That girl can take care of herself and speak up for herself. No frail little lily, that one. And SMG has also said how glad she was with season seven's return to a non-season 6 Buffy. (I personally loved season 6.)
Final weird point: would she burn bridges this way? Joss may end up a major player in the apocal....in movies....and surely SMG wouldn't be so foolish as to think that it'll benefit her to let it all hang out now. She's too careful for that.
Or maybe the Big Issue folks got her drunk before plying her with questions.
phlebotinin | November 11, 18:12 CET
1.) catalyst2:
I am deeply cynical by nature - the Grudge does so well that SMG knows she will never have to do Buffy again so that fan base can be offended without any threat to her future career.
I really don't think she can retire off a single hit movie. And it wasn't that big a hit, and honestly, I am not sure what that movie will do for her career as a whole. I think it's more likely that she'll remain "that girl from Buffy" more than "that girl who starred in The Grudge." There's a long list of actresses who starred in horror movies, even popular ones, that didn't get much farther. Scooby-Doo was a wider release with a bigger budget and I'm willing to bet will have made more money overall, in the long run.
2.) phlebotinin:
Final weird point: would she burn bridges this way?
This really isn't burning a bridge in the grand scheme of things. Again, I think once we get a hold of the original interview this quote was pulled from, and get to see the context, this will all seem so less controversial.
PMMJ | November 11, 18:29 CET
phlebotinin | November 11, 18:42 CET
BlindHawkeyes | November 11, 18:50 CET
I mean, Sarah aside, has anyone ever heard any of the cast and crew seriously say Joss yelled? About anything? At all?
Okay, Jordan Levin comments not included! ;)
The Watcher | November 11, 18:53 CET
I fully agree with Senior Partner as far as the comment about Joss yelling is concerned. As soon as I read this it sounded to me like something said in jest. It's a little jokey comment, and she was probably laughing as she said it. We've seen enough TV interviews to know that this woman does have a sense of humour.
Oh, and Senior Partner and Passion: Thank you for the kind comments. I'm relatively new to this posting board, so it's nice to hear that I'm not making a complete fool of myself!
alien lanes | November 11, 19:12 CET
nychick | November 11, 19:32 CET
When Lucas cut off Luke Skywalker's hand, did he ask Mark Hammill if that was a productive character development? No. He gave Hammill the script and told him to get his ass in front of the camera. When Captain Stubing found out he had a daughter out of wedlock, did Gavin MacLeod get to tell the writers of Love Boat that maybe the Captain wouldn't commit adultery? No. They gave him the script and told him to get his ass in front of the camera.
Is the alleged quote from The Big Issue "in keeping" with SMG? Why are we arguing this? This isn't in character for SMG? Y'all talk as if you hang with her regularly in bars. Unless you're on her payroll, or you're married to her, or you're genetically related to her, you don't know what's "in character" for SMG. Unless you regularly get to call her "Sassy" without her people having lawyers throw a restraining order at you, you don't know her. Reading magazine articles gives us glimpses but we'll never know the whole truth. We don't know details. We fill in the holes with assumptions and think we're right.
What we do know is she and Whedon came to creative differences soon after the series went from WB to UPN. Whedon thought a Buffy who came back from the dead wouldn't be able to bounce back in a commercial break. She'd be a darker character. She'd question whether her sacrifice to save the world was worth it, and she'd question whether or not this world was worth saving over and over. She'd feel numb. She'd have to heal inside greater than outside, and the audience needs to she her go through this process, which makes her more than just a flat two dimensional character.
SMG didn't like some of the character choices she saw Buffy making. All this has been documented. Joss and SMG came to a rational mature understanding, and decided to make season seven the last one. We've known this for awhile now. This is no great new revelation. What would be a great revelation is if Whedon and SMG took off the kid gloves and started slinging mud but it's too late and they both took the high road. They know how they feel about one another, and some things just don't belong in magazine articles to give us the illusion that we actually know these people.
Just once I'd like to hear Whedon admit that he gave her the script and told her to get in front of the camera, and SMG said "but Buffy wouldn't do this" and Whedon laughed at her. Cuz SMG wasn't the writer. She put her hand in the puppet back in 1996, but Whedon's the one that sewed the puppet together in the first place. Whedon would know better than SMG or anyone what Buffy would do. Just once I'd like to hear that, but we won't, because Whedon and SMG aren't gonna share the darker stuff in front of the fans. It's water under the bridge now.
ZachsMind | November 11, 19:44 CET
A cynical person may assume that all of them actually hate each others guts and would sooner stick chopsticks in their own eyes than be around the rest of the cast ever again. Not a theory i would personally agree with but you are correct that we don't know that isn't the case.
But that isn't what we are discussing here at all. The comments above come from "Hollywood Sarah", the version who knows what needs to be said in the public eye. This version we are very familiar with having been following Sarah and her career for the better part of a decade now.
All we are doing is basing our theories on what we assume she would have said, knowing that whatever she says is going to end up on the internet within a matter of hours. As such i think we are qualified to make these assumptions.
The "real" Sarah may be a different person altogether, we really don't know, but does that really come in to what we are talking about here?
The Watcher | November 11, 20:01 CET
phlebotinin | November 11, 20:14 CET
Regarding the quotes, I'm inclined to think they must be authentic, but as is noted several times above, context is everything...I can see Joss "yelling" at cast members and nobody having a fit over it.
Chris inVirginia | November 11, 20:17 CET
She writes in Embraced By The Light' of the terrible depression she fell into for almost two years. The experiance of being out of this hard third dimension and in something like heaven and then finding herself back here...gave her no scope...no feeling for her life or what she should do with it. She also experianced a great feeling of loss of love, of being loved in a way she could never be here on earth. Dannion Brinkely had a similiar profile in the year after his first death experiance.
Sound familiar?
Season 6 was so absolutley RIGHT on target metaphysically speaking my mind was blown out of my body. (I have since managed to squish in back in). Season 6 might have lost some viewers but it hooked a whole new audience who identified with the complexity of Buffy's struggle. View it as a metaphor of life after High School or the 'back to the world from beyond' based on sound accounts and the truth as it exists in the collective unconsciousness and you'll find in either scenario, Marti was right on the pulse. Right on it.
We just have to admit that different people have a different range of life (and death with a chuckle) experiance. It does Joss massive credit that he let this unfold in a way that spoke the truth to millions of people. He followed the natural heart of the story--depression was the natural outgrowth of the death experiance and overcoming oneself and the often overwhelming feeling of separation from love is our biggest challenge on this planet today. Depression is the real monster.
I remember Sarah saying once that Joss told her something like: 'You just don't understand what so many other people have gone through...you have always known what you wanted...' and at that time she acknowledged that was true and that she had to trust Joss for what she didn't understand herself.
I'm paraphrasing badly--no doubt, but that was the gist and perhaps Sarah has been very lucky in her life so far not to find herself in that space...but thank goodness and give the laurels to Marti and Joss for being brave enough to talk about Buffy after death, to talk about some hard truths. For following the heart of the story.
The conceit of The Musical was that everyone sang their truth weither they liked it or not. The only person strong enough to stop Buffy from self destructing was Spike.
Because he loved her unconditionaly. And because unconditional love is similiar to what Buffy describes recieving in heaven-- Buffy turns to Spike to feel a glimmer of that love again. 6 sets up the proposal that Spike's love saves her from herself. The relationship takes a logical course from there--Spike is still unsouled and though he is inspired to love...it is still a fraction of what he can be, of how he has to grow himself. Find me a woman in the world who doesn't recognize that a man can love and still act like an idiot while he's growing up.
Metaphor was brilliant, parallel plot lines, everything fit like the logic of a natural life. Amazing. I won't go into 7--it would take a treatise, except to say--I think they did some spinning to ease the B/A shippers and so there was a bit of a diservice to the heart of the story. But nothing too devasting. They just looked scared to take some risks in 7 and so peddled down the middle.
I loved and appreciated the struggle of ensouled Spike, loved what JM did--ME just could have been braver and more definative earlier about the B/S thing. If she was using him--they could have made that clearer and incorporated it into the storyline as a generals struggle to manipulate those around her, and if she loved him--they could have been braver and introduced that line earlier too to deal with the very real social repercussions of that.
Waiting for the end Chosen to do a sucker punch...well, that just wasn't kind. Or needed. That's my only real gripe, really for the WHOLE entire BTVS series. Season 1,2,3 were amusing, sometimes poignant but man the risk they took in 4 when Angel left was brilliant and true. I remember, that's when I got really hooked and thought, wow...now, now, things can really happen for Buffy. And they did.
Because my god, who wants to remain a teenager forever? Who really wants to go through this world unchanged by it?
Season 6 might have been tough--but it made Buffy stronger than any monster or experiance to date. That says something in itself.
All this to say--as Joss told her; perhaps Sarah just hasn't had the life experiance to date to understand the value of what was accomplished.
Yet.
BforBeth | November 11, 20:18 CET
However to expect that all parties will be exactly having the same viewpoint all the time and have the same artistic vision is well, ridiculous. That’s why in the end there is always one person in charge whose vision prevails. (Unless the studio meddles, but that is another story.)
If anybody involved in the process really is not happy with the direction something is taking, they have an option to walk away from it. I know easier said than done, contracts and everybody has to make a living, but even so, how many projects fall apart because of ‘artistic differences’.
Clearly that level of disagreement was not the case here, so hurrah to Joss (personally I love season 6) and ‘vive la difference’, as the French would say.
miranda | November 11, 21:06 CET
Unless someone were to sit down with her and conduct a lengthy, no holds barred, cards on the table, interview about every opinion she has about the show, and then published it verbatim, we never will know. That is never going to happen.
This leaves us with two choices. We can either shut up and never discuss the issue, or we can speculate and engage in lively and amiable debate.
I really cannot agree that actors do not or should not have any creative input into the characters they play. I believe that a creative process works better if it is not an autocratic process. However, once again, it is all a matter of opinion.
Lizard, you are not alone. I adore S6. I find it endlessly fascinating and I never tire of watching it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that some people involved in the making of the show had some misgivings about it (and it wasn't just Gellar, let's not forget). They have their opinions. I have my opinions. The season remains what it is, either way.
alien lanes | November 11, 21:09 CET
I, too, adore S6. There's not a season of Angel or Buffy that I don't adore at this point. I adore them for different reasons and all of them have their imperfections, but the more I watch these shows the more I appreciate their depths, especially the seasons that I liked less than others on first viewing. This was the case for me for S6. I initially didn't enjoy it much - OMWF and Tabula Rasa aside - although I never thought it was bad. Now, having seen the season at least 4 or 5 times, I enjoy it immensely. I also think I find more humor in it than most people I know.
phlebotinin | November 11, 21:18 CET
Silv | November 11, 21:22 CET
jewel | November 11, 22:33 CET
Melisande | November 11, 22:44 CET
Season six was my favorite season, which is perhaps why when I first read that SMG had misgivings about it (that was a year or two ago now), I was a little miffed. An actor is hired to take what's on the page and bring it alive. There's already other people writing the character. I didn't mean to insinuate I think Whedon and Gellar hate each other. I don't think that. I honestly don't know how they feel about one another. It's their business relationship during the series that is in question.
The beginning of season six was a dangerous corner that the writers had written themselves in. Not just Whedon but M.E. as a whole. You take your main character and you have her jump off a precipice, fall into an energy vortex, then plunge to her death. You bury her on camera and show her gravestone. This is your season five finale. Then in season six you're supposed to bring her back. If you want to make this believable in the context of a show where all previous dead people come back wrong, Buffy's gotta come back a little 'wrong' herself. Otherwise your audience isn't gonna buy into it.
So an actress - not just Gellar but anyone - who looks at this and thinks "maybe my character shouldn't be this dark"..? WTF? How is it her place? Yeah she's put blood sweat and tears into Buffy and most of the audience won't accept anyone else in the role. That gives her some clout. However she's not the writer. She's not the director. Her job is to take the words and make them work. Which she did. Her opinions about the direction the story was going? Not a sufficient reason to leave the character or the story. Or if it must be? Fine. Let her go, but put another actress into the role who's willing to continue the story and help the writers, producers and directors instead of get in the way of the storytelling.
ZachsMind | November 11, 23:09 CET
Have I mentioned how much I love Joss Whedon, politics be damned?
I love Joss Whedon.
Chris inVirginia | November 11, 23:29 CET
The fact that Joss came to the same conclusion as sarah about aspects of season 6 suggest to me that an actor can have a valid input
Should they be allowed to dicate storylines? No
But to agrue that they can't have a insight into the character is just wrong.
Their insights into the character and any effect it might have on the storyline should be balanced with the writers producers input etc
garda39 | November 11, 23:34 CET
I am a huge fan of Buffy season 6, in fact it is probably my favorite year of the series. For me Season 6 was the year where Buffy changed from a show I deeply enjoy to a show I couldn't live without. They took so many chances with these characters, very few other shows would be willing to follow people we love to their lowest points. Willow with her drugs (which I never really viewed as just a (drugs are bad) message and more a character moment, Willow was such an insecure teens, and she did magic to make her special, give her an ability, and she became addicted to that power). Xander's doubt, and depression. Buffy attempting to come to terms with a world, sleeping with Spike in an attempt to feel something. Dawn's kleptomania, abandonement issues. I get all happy just thinking about that year.
Season 7 had it's moments, and as an arc it wasn't bad, but the militaristic feel of it never really appealed to me. I think the show was still strong, and deal with some good issues and gave a few characters nice arc, but the tone didn't do much for me.
The thing it, the work speaks for itself, love it or hate it, agree with SMG or not, what she says is not going to affect anything. She's an actress not a writer, she acts her material, I don't care if she's happy with it.
rabid | November 11, 23:44 CET
In fact Joss has stated on many occasions that he was very happy with Buffy season 6, although it depressed him.
Heck some of it depressed me, that's not a bad thing.
rabid | November 11, 23:46 CET
In 1981 I saw a production of Othello in Washington, DC, starring James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer...and when Jones, as Othello, killed Desdemona, I was softly weeping, "Don't...please...she's innocent...don't do it..." My girlfriend told me I was nuts, but in a good way...Buffy affects me the same way, the way nothing in TV or movies has ever affected me...if I hadn't been depressed about Season 6 I probably need to be committed to a nuthouse...it was so gorgeously dark, so magnificently bleak, and, astonishingly, so redemptively beautiful come season's end, accompanied so marvelously by the St. Francis Prayer...God, what an achievement Joss has wrought....
Chris inVirginia | November 11, 23:55 CET
Madhatter | November 12, 00:09 CET
( thanks Sis.. and I mean that most sincerely)
As to the interview I bought The Big Issue today but, as usual hadn't really looked at it, it's in my office and tomorrow I shall go read the article .
debw | November 12, 00:15 CET
I love season 6. I love all the seasons. And I am still trying to decide which is truer, that most fans loved it or that most fans hated it. I think it's about 50/50.
Season 6 was so absolutley RIGHT on target metaphysically speaking my mind was blown out of my body.
I completely agree. I have not died and been brought back to life, but I have experienced severe depression for years on end (for most of half my life actually) and I can tell you that the way SMG portrayed depression was spot on. The scene at the end of Afterlife when she told Spike she had been in Heaven, the way she described how it felt to be brought back ("Everything here is hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch...this is Hell.") is exactly how I would describe my depression. Jane Espenson wrote that episode and I dont know Joss re-wrote that dialogue or not but whoever did just did an amazing job. I could relate to Buffy in season 6, but I can understand that someone who's never experienced that kind of darkness wouldn't get it. But I agree it was true to Buffy's experience of coming back from the dead. Kudos to ME for that.
I, too, adore S6. There's not a season of Angel or Buffy that I don't adore at this point. I adore them for different reasons and all of them have their imperfections, but the more I watch these shows the more I appreciate their depths, especially the seasons that I liked less than others on first viewing.
I adore all the seasons of the Buffyverse too. I know people that had even told me they think season 7 of Buffy was the best season ever. It had a dangerous momentum at the end with Caleb and people dying. I seriously for the first time thought it was possible that no one would make it out alive, especially knowing it was going to be the final season. The writers made me believe that nobody was safe. That's good writing. I also thought it was compelling, riveting, painful, and beautiful (Dirty Girls is one of my favorite s7 eps, especially with Caleb's speach at the end. Brrr). Season 7 hit a nerve that none of the previous seasons did. I found it very profound. I've also listened to Succubus Club interviews with the writers about that season so I've learned a lot about what the messages they were trying to give about the events that a lot of fans screamed bloody murder about (i.e., Buffy being kicked out of the house, Buffy shutting Giles out), and I wish I could remember them all now.
I do see plot problems at times with the show, but the overall story makes sense to me. Some things I would have liked (i.e., Willow and Kennedy not painted as a true couple because I believe Willow was on the rebound) to see didn't happen and I kind of sigh and move on because the rest makes sense to me. And anything that doesn't I can fanwank away with the best of them.
Back to the topic, my distrust of the SMG quotage is because I dont know the context, and yeah, if she was joking about not wanting to vocalize her views for fear of Joss yelling at her, then it makes a lot more sense. In the lack of context it sounds like a really strange thing for her to say to a reporter. And all I was talking about was that she has always been very professional, very appreciative of her role on the show, and has really has a lot of good to say about Buffy, despite her problems with season 6. Her words just sound too negative here.
I wanted to reiterate that I'm not saying SMG does not think negatively about her role on Buffy, I'm saying that she's always been professional and fair about it in interviews and these quotes out of context sound much harsher than anything she's ever said in an interview. I really doubt she feels like she can say whatever's on her mind now that she's the star of a hit horror movie. SMG's much smarter than that.
electricspacegirl | November 12, 00:55 CET
Joss rules! | November 12, 00:58 CET
Joss rules! | November 12, 01:00 CET
SMG got up every day, went to work, and did her best portraying her character. That's what matters to me. I can understand her having difficulty with S6. And I wouldn't take away anyone's right to express their opinion regarding their work, no matter what their job is. Whatever discussions she had with Joss, whatever her opinion, she absolutely should be able to lay it on the table. And the showrunners should do exactly what they apparently did - not lose sight of their vision because of that opinion. I don't want to be told to just show up, shut up, and do what I'm told. I wouldn't expect an actor who has given face and form to a character for a period of time to not have opinions about that character. The bottom line, of course, is that once the discussion is over, you give your best. She did.
In the end, great season, and tough work for both her and JM, work which I can understand they had concerns, questions, or misgivings about. I never saw any of that on the screen and that's what mattered to me.
Angela | November 12, 01:23 CET
Season 7 started out great in my opinion but stumbled along the way with endless long winded speeches and especially (for me anyway) with the addition of the slayes in waiting(some terrible fake english accents in there "Gor blimey guvnooor"). It had potential(no pun intended lol) but seemed at least in hindsight that behind the scenes events stopped it in its tracks. I read in a interview that Whedon said because they found out it was the last series he had to cram two or three series worth of events into series 7.
As for if SMG actually said this or not we'll find out eventually im sure but it does surprise me the amount of times stories seem to change. Tara not coming back in series 7 is one for example, ive seen official interviews where its said Ambere Benson didnt want to come back because Tara was going to be evil then other reports saying it was just a case of conflicting achedules as she was contracted to do something else at that time. The one i mentioned above about the cramming of story lines i saw Whedon in a long and intresting interview about his life and the whole time on Buffy saying this but on the DVD commentry for the first episode he says it was planned from the first episode that it would be the last series.
Im sure ive seen more discrepancies like this too all very confusing. To add to this as its sort of relevant, ive also seen Whedon say both James Marsters and SMG both talked to him about the fact that they felt certain scenes were overdone and he said he agreed.
As for if SMG has said this, i dont think people should be too hard everyone(especially fans) have their own opinions about things so i dont see why she should be any different. As for the Joss comment maybe it was said as a joke with a smile and laugh than her actually meaning it in a serious way.
faneater | November 12, 01:26 CET
That said, I honestly don’t understand why some posters here take such great pride in stripping the actors of any importance. These people are artists – no, they’re not ‘creative artists’. They’re ‘performing artists’. Without the fantastic talents of Gellar, Hannigan, Marsters, Brendon, et al there would be no S6 to discuss. There would piles of scripts lying about and someone nominally called a director talking to himself discussing how he would produce this script. No, actors shouldn’t dictate story lines. Nor should costume designers. But surely in a creative environment, someone who has been acting a character for 6 years is considered to have some insight into the character and the show whose title character it is. If actors just mouthed words, no-one would bother to actually produce movies and TV shows. Hell, how many Hamlets have there been? The writing’s (more or less) the same, it’s the directors and the performers who change.
I think the fact that everyone praises Gellar’s performance, whatever her views may have been, prove what an outstanding artist she is. After playing Buffy for such a long time, I would think it mighty strange if she didn’t have very strong ideas on the character of Buffy and what she would or wouldn’t do. That doesn’t mean that any of the creative artists on the show have to accept them, but to dismiss Gellar’s opinion just because she’s an actor??
Oh, while I was writing Angela actually said much better and more concisely than I did. thanks, Angela.
[ edited by WWBD on 2004-11-11 23:38 ]
WWBD | November 12, 01:36 CET
Mort | November 12, 01:43 CET
rabid | November 12, 01:47 CET
ZachsMind | November 12, 01:48 CET
Angela | November 12, 01:59 CET
electricspacegirl | November 12, 02:05 CET
After all, these actors have been LIVING these characters on a very intimate, personal, fundamental level for a long long time. Good writers, like Joss, certainly go to places when they're writing that is a very similar place to where Actos go. But there's still a BIG difference between writing a character and being a character. Why shouldn't SMG feel some ownership over Buffy? She cracked open her heart in front of a camera every day she was on set. Most people can't even get to those deep places in their personal lives, yet alone *make* it their professional lives.
Everyone who thinks that actors are merely puppets has never had the pleasure of collaborating with a wonderful actor. They are a director's biggest asset. They're the ones who are going to suggest blocking, and th little bits of business, and maybe I should do this and maybe I should do that.... that will turn a written character into a real perosn. The directors who think that Actors are merely puppets end up producing movies with acting like that in the Star Wars prequels - utterly terrible... inconsistent, unbelievable, melodramatic... lacking any grounding in lived experienced. There will be moments of brightness, but thats from actors who can work sans direction.
Joss, OTH, has always come across as someone who has had a very deep and profound respect for his actors - particularly Sarah. Thats why I think the idea of him 'yelling' at Sarah seems so wrong. He very much strikes me as the kind of writer and director who would really *listen* to what an actor had to say and really incorporate it into what he's doing. Thats why the acting in his shows, especially the episodes he's directed, is so wonderful - it really comes that he gives actors the creative environment they need to disobligate themselves from the world and just -be- in front of the camera. Thats an incredibly incredibly difficult thing to do for both actors and directors.
biki | November 12, 03:34 CET
I'd also agree that Gellar should have felt some ownership over Buffy being that she was in Buffy's head for the previous 5 or 6 years. I don't blame her for not liking where Buffy was going. In my opinion however, she just wasn't writing the show - this was Joss's character in the end. Gellar brought a lot to the character of Buffy and as an actor, I feel she brought a lot of herself, but (and feel free to disagree with me) in the end Buffy was still Joss's creation. Maybe some Gellar input would have been beneficial, I don't know, but I loved Buffy's depression. It seemed right to me. Nonetheless, despite her feelings, Gellar still bucked down and did it in the end and did it very well.
Finally, when I said 'in character' for Gellar in my earlier posts, I was referring to her media persona which, in my opinion, is sort of like a character. Not totally, because there's still a human being behind the curtain. While I personally believe that she's more or less honest with her comments and won't say things that she doesn't completely mean, she still won't give nearly everything away. Case in point, Gellar has never said that she was comfortable with the direction season six took, being quite outspoken about her unhappiness with specific things happening within that season, while also never relaying to us absolutely everything she felt about the season. I really don't expect her to. There has to be that front, that barrier. Still, 'in character' might have been the wrong phrase.
[ edited by NatashaLea on 2006-11-08 16:28 ]
Natashia | November 12, 04:31 CET
Zachsmind: I agree completely witht he Lucas/Skywalker comparison. They are actors. Sarah was hired to act out the character that Joss created and he and his writers wrote. That's the job she was paid to do. And she did it, to be sure, while grudgingly at times. But that's pretty much how it should be. She didn't create Buffy, or write the stories. She helped portray her. Big difference. Writers write, actors act.
Also I clearly remember Sarah once saying about S6 that it shouldn't have gotten so dark, and that(And I quote literally): "I think Buffy should just dust vamps and make quips."
Given that, I am eternally grateful that she didn't have 'more of a say' in things, because if that had been all Buffy had been about, I probably would've stopped watching around S2.
EdDantes | November 12, 06:05 CET
I think a character development like Buffy in S6, is a gift to an actress.
"The writers made me believe that nobody was safe. That's good writing." Exactly how i felt too.
Angel TheVampire | November 12, 06:45 CET
Rather than being dark, season 6 is just grey to me...compared with the powerful thunderstorms that preceded it, it's a dreary downpour of bathos and self-indulgent wallowing, with an explosion of pointless violence at the end. The writing is simply not up to par and the plot becomes a soap opera. And instead of the brilliant humor of earlier seasons, we get idiotic things like a shark-headed loan shark demon.
Those are my reasons for disliking it...and I greatly enjoyed what I believe to be the depth and complexity of earlier seasons. I think Sarah is right on the money if she disliked the last two years.
Ilana | November 12, 07:52 CET
"happy-bunny rose gardens" - that's rather funny.
phlebotinin | November 12, 08:33 CET
Hey. You said it. Not me.
*ducking*
ZachsMind | November 12, 08:43 CET
Where's your evidence she did it grudgingly at times or are you just basing that on the fact she complained to Joss about some aspects of the show
Because complaining to Joss doesn't necessarily equal doing it grudgingly ortherwise we could say the same of James Marsters especially of the AR scence as well
garda39 | November 12, 09:29 CET
I'm not saying I didn't like it because it's dark or because Buffy should have been quippy and happy straight away after being death. I wouldn't have minded if she never gotten over it to be honest. I think it was a great idea to have her depressed. But to me that's all Season Six is. A bunch of great ideas that were executed poorly. There were moments of absolute brilliance. Moments equal to every other seasons great moments. But mostly (for me) it was just *wince* Crackho!Willow *wince* Spuffy Sex
I think it would have been better if Spike and Buffy were just friends and he could have saved her in a friend way and realised that his lust for her earlier wasn't actually 'love' but friendship that he hadn't realised, because he'd never experienced it before. If Giles had had a better reason to leave. And if Willow was addicted to POWER not MAJIK.
But what do I know, I'm just a hapless fan.
pezwitch | November 12, 10:00 CET
[ edited by catalyst2 on 2004-11-12 09:23 ]
catalyst2 | November 12, 10:29 CET
electricspacegirl | November 12, 10:56 CET
I did. I thought it was terrific and very, very real. The progression of it, the way it began with doing mundane things with magic just for convenience. She felt it made her special, and powerful, and I given some of my own history, I can very much understand how something that you feel empowers you can overtake your will.
As to SMG and any hesitation or concern she had, whether she stepped up to the plate grudingly or otherwise, I say thank God. Because honestly, look at the amount of analysis this 'verse has generated. Look at the way people like us dissect it, and question it, and champion it. Look at the fan fic, the art, the poems, and the essays. Look at how we can all revel in the three dimensional, flawed, characters. Frankly, if any of these actors showed up for work without giving any of it any thought, without having their own likes and dislikes, without feeling some of the same joy, pain, or discomfort at some of the places this show took us all to, that would mean they didn't "get it", and they didn't respect it as much as I for one did. Did SMG feel the need to tell Joss, or Marti, or whoever, "I don't like it, I don't feel comfortable? Good. It meant she cared.
Angela | November 12, 10:58 CET
"look at the amount of analysis this 'verse has generated. Look at the way people......revel in the three dimensional, flawed, characters"
Boards like this, to me, show Joss' genius - we care about these characters, even when we hate certain storylines, characterizarions etc. I just cannot imagine caring about whether Ray or Marie win this week's tug-o-emotions (sorry to any ELR fans) let alone the passion these debates generate. This show resonates for me so deeply and I have no real idea why. I can debate this point or that, commnet on this ep or that, respond to an actor's interpretation but the whole is so, so much bigger than the sum of the parts.
I NEVER lose sight of that whole - your post expresed that so well.
catalyst2 | November 12, 11:33 CET
Many wouldn't love the realness, or the depressing quality of season 6, or maybe they found the new tone or the method of writing not up to par for their wants. Some would say the same about season 4 however, season 7, 5, 1 heck I've heard complaints about season 3, and I have complaints about most of the non-arc season 2 episodes.
Same with Angel, every season takes flack from different people.
Look at Firefly, it has some truly hardcore fans, many of whom believe that it might be Joss best work. Of course there are all of those who couldn't care less about it and move on.
Although sometimes as a fan it could be frustrating when those who dislike a season become too agressive and vocal about something I adore (as with the Spike haters who complained for most of the last three season of Buffy about him.) It's always fascinating to see the cross-section of fans.
To me that is a compliment to the show, if everyone loved it, if there was nothing controversial, if the show remained the same, I would say it was a failure.
For all the problems I might have with certain seasons, at least I respect their ambition, and I always respect the fans.
rabid | November 12, 11:39 CET
Simon | November 12, 11:49 CET
The only episode that I have trouble watching (besides The Body, which is excellent, but very painful) is Doublemeat Palace. Killed by Death, Reptile Girl, Beer Bad, or any of the other commonly denounced episodes still have some truly funny moments that make them fun for me to watch. Doublemeat Palace is depressing, yucky, and just eh. But I'll still watch it.
And I liked Smashed. Wrecked is ok, it has good moments. And Gone, well, I think Invisi-Spuffy sex is hilarious.
electricspacegirl | November 12, 12:14 CET
I actually don't mind the three you did include although i can understand why others didn't enjoy them. What i can't understand is how anyone can say Doublemeat Palace was worth the forty two minutes of the show's run it took up. Now that episode truly was awful and the one episode of the entire series i really don't enjoy watching.
The Watcher | November 12, 13:46 CET
Simon | November 12, 14:34 CET
We pick up bits and pieces and we try and fill the gaps (as someone above has stated). It's too easy to fall into the belief that the cast will now commence ripping into each other, because so many other shows have gone the same way. After the original Star Trek ended, numerous tales began to surface that the rest of the cast hated William Shatner. It's now become an accepted fact. Maybe we don't want to believe that there was any tension between the cast (or between members of the cast and Joss) because it would sour our view of the show. Being able to accept the relationships between characters also means having to believe that the same friendships must exist behind the scenes. Sadly, that's not always the case. Equally sadly, we won't ever know one way or the other.
SMG's comment about Joss yelling seems out of character for the man as we know him - but we know him hardly at all. The fact that SMG would make that comment does itself seem out of character for her (certainly she hasn't engaged in anything even approaching mud-slinging in the past) - but again, we don't really know her, either. But is it really so troubling to think that these two powerful personalities (and, yes, egos) might not get on all of the time for seven years?
I think it's no secret that the relationship between Joss and SMG, which had always seemed a strong one, changed a little between Seasons 5 and 6. I still remember Sarah's comments about not wanting to move to another network if the WB didn't want the show, comments she ultimately had to retract when it became clear the WB really didn't want the show anymore. It's possible to speculate that she made these comments because she was ready to leave then, knowing that Season 5 ended on a fairly definite note. Maybe Joss had to really persuade her to return. And maybe when she agreed, she became disillusioned when the show became considerably darker in Season 6. And who can blame her for not liking much of what Buffy did duing that season? We may have our opinions about how well it all worked (and for my money Season 6 managed to make the main character thoroughly unlikeable) but the perspectives of those involved in making the show are inevitably going to be different. Sarah didn't like the direction of the show, and specifically her character, in the sixth season? I agree with her. And it was my understanding that Joss also agreed with her. That's why large parts of Season 7 became damage limitation exercises, only to misunderstand that the character of Buffy had been irrevocably changed in viewers' eyes. When this happened to Cordelia on Angel, the writers cut their losses and got rid of the character. On Buffy they decided to move the focus slightly away from Buffy herself and onto Spike and, to a lesser extent, the potentials.
What surprises me the most is how surprised other people are that Joss and SMG's relationship changed during Season 6. Whatever you think of all the sex stuff with Spike that season, I think it's easy to understand why SMG might be uncomfortable with it. And now that the show is behind her, no matter how grateful she may be fo it, it was inevitable that she would try to distance herself from it.
Sorry for rattling on there. Too much coffee this moring, I guess.
[ edited by Outsider on 2004-11-12 12:36 ]
[ edited by Outsider on 2004-11-12 12:37 ]
[ edited by Outsider on 2004-11-12 12:38 ]
[ edited by Outsider on 2004-11-12 12:39 ]
Outsider | November 12, 14:36 CET
Sunnycide | November 12, 14:55 CET
As a rather old person, my 'Buffy' watching has been a rather solitary pursuit prior to my recent tentative venturing onto the posting boards. My wife tolerates my obsession with generally good humour and my friends suspect I am "going through a phase", a second childhood. However, a dear friend started to watch the show just over a year ago, initially to help her through a very sad event in her life, and is now completely hooked. We have often engaged in long telephone conversations debating the whys and wherefores of the show and both agree that S6 is a triumph of great writing and acting.
There isn't a single episode in 'Buffy' that I don't like, and that includes 'Doublemeat Palace'. Does this make me a weird person? It doesn't seem to be a very popular episode in general. I quite like 'Smashed'. It isn't particularly a favourite but I am always happy to watch it. 'Wrecked' is wonderful, I think. 'Gone' does fizzle out a little bit towards the end, but I adore the opening sequence in Buffy's house. Given a choice between watching this episode and virtually any other TV show, I know what I would choose.
Like most great things, 'Buffy' is polymorphous. It has taken on a life of its own. New meanings constantly emerge that were not necessarily intended by the writers. We are all free to interpret what we see as we wish and this is why we never tire of discussing it. We can't ask for any more, really.
[ edited by dashboardprophet on 2004-11-12 15:48 ]
alien lanes | November 12, 16:17 CET
I watch Buffy for the fantasy and magic (and general brilliance of course) and that situation put Buffy (the character) just a little too close to reality for my liking, which was the point of the excercise i know. Still makes watching it a little unsettling though.
Demons, vampires, monsters i'm fine with. Flipping burgers and stinking of fat, now that is scary! :)
The Watcher | November 12, 16:25 CET
On my first veiwing, I really disliked Angel, Faith and Spike, and season seven, until I watched them again and saw something that other people loved for the first time. So I guess my point is something that we all already know - different themes and characters appeal to different veiwers, but because circumstances in the veiwers' lives change, so will their appeal to different aspects of the series. Which I am grateful for, because now when I go back and watch something again, I can gain a new appreciation for it.
buffbuff | November 12, 17:34 CET
Passion | November 12, 17:51 CET
Season six won me over. I didn't watch BtVS regularly until it left the WB. I had friends who told me I'd like it, but aside from some of the episodes Seth Green was in early on, I always had something better to do that night. When I read somewhere that Green was written out of the series, I had no reason to tune back in.
I thought of BtVS as a lame show based loosely off a lamer movie. However, the fact that the writers were so daring as to make the lead character unlikeable, and simultaneously elevated her to tragic hero from just girl-with-stake, that just made me appreciate the character more. It gave her dimension.
Then I went BACK and looked at the whole series with different eyes. I had glanced at the show from a peripheral angle, and disregarded anything that remotely looked soap opera-y. After season six I caught the older stuff on a friend's videotape collection, and later the dvds, and realized I'd only cheated myself.
So season six will always be my favorite because it was the season that opened my eyes to the depth of Whedon's talent, and the excellent work of the cast, crew and staff of Mutant Enemy.
Seasons one through three are a completely different show. In seasons four to seven, we're post high school so the settings are different and the characters have grown and the plot arcs all take a dynamic shift. Like it or not, Season six is BtVS's "Empire Strikes Back" where the evil appears to be winning and the good guys are struggling to regroup and get their bearings. Perhaps the execution of some ideas didn't grab the brass ring every time, but M.E. took television places it had never gone before and history will judge it fairly.
And yeah. Fun thread to read. Thanks gang for the spirited discussion.
ZachsMind | November 12, 18:51 CET
Agree with Simon on "Gone Again". What were they thinking? But I rather liked 'Smashed" and "Wrecked." Then again, I was following the character of Willow. I'll take my leave here.
Madhatter | November 12, 20:58 CET
I have really mixed feelings about the season, because on the one hand I admire so much what it tried to do, and on the other, I'm sad by how poorly i think those attempts were sometimes executed. I agree with a lot of what Ilana said farther up – for some of us who aren't wild about the season, it's *not* because we don't get dark and complex. In fact, that's what I most like about the season. I like the idea of making life the big bad, of not allowing Buffy to come back easily from death, of daring to make her a bit unlikeable and having her struggle with the very common issues a lot of young people do: self-hatred, bad relationship choices, lack of focus and direction, etc. It was the right time in the series, and very believable that the characters would be facing a lot of what they were.
But then we come to the execution.... I still get almost embarrassed for the writers when I rewatch, for instance, some of the Willow-as-crack-addict eps. I'd been waiting for the whole series to see how her growing misuse of magic would play out. They'd foreshadowed it as early as season 2, and i loved that there was a lot leading up suggesting she was getting out of her depth, and was too fond of the power and uniqueness that her abilities gave her. And then they went and turned it into a super-obvious, hit-you-over-the-head drug addiction metaphor? It's what i would have expected out of a lot of shows, but from buffy I expect more than tired clichés. Most of their metaphors are so well-done. This one, to me, wasn't. it was clunky, obvious, and didn't really fit what we had seen before – magic had never been an "addiction", complete with withdrawal symptoms when Willow tried to stop and an evil crack den pushing it on her. Rather, it was something that she had a tough time knowing what was and wasn't within her limits.
And i thought that was indicative of a lot of clunky writing in the series – the loan "shark" has already been mentioned, and Doublemeat palace, and Gone... The metaphors became cliches, the plots were predictable, the writing wasn't as sharp. As for Spike/Buffy – i happen to be a Spuffy fan, so i can overlook a lot of the weaknesses there, but it did get a trifle overdone. I will say that i thought it highly believable that she'd turn to a destructive relationship given what she was feeling at the time. And then there's the Nerd Trio – it was the first time i felt like the enemies in Buffy were lame. And i say that with the full realization that they were *supposed* to be lame. But, for me at least, they was amusing at first but the joke got old pretty quickly. And finallly – the season really felt Giles's absence. I didn't realize until he was gone how much it needed that stable adult presence – without him, i felt like the core characters were lacking something.
All of that isn't to say i actively dislike the season. It had some great moments (OMWF is my favorite episode of all BtVS, and Bargaining, Tabula Rasa, Dead Things, After Life, Normal Again, and a few others all have some great elements too), and I appreciated what it was trying to do. I definitely prefer it to season 7. The finale was gripping (and unlike some people, I didn't mind the Tara death or Spike rape scene), although i find i'm rarely interested in rewatching it because it's all so tonally the *same*. I go back to a finale like Becoming, in part because I admire how much it managed to juggle – in addition to the extreme tragedy and horror and heartbreak, there's some fabulous comedy, romance, some normal light moments, some extra bits (Xander's frenchfry reenactment or the scenes with Spike and Joyce) that are priceless, some backstory, etc. – whereas in S6's three final episodes the tone rarely changes at all from unrelenting darkness.
Anyhow, all that's a long way of saying I admired what Season 6 attempted, but felt like the end result was heavily flawed. But, like Ilana above, that in no way has to do with the fact that the season was dark and complex.
acp | November 12, 21:15 CET
My journey through the series everytime I revisit it is always different. The more I grow and change in my life, the more I find something new in the show. A new perspective on the plot, on the characters. It's an amazing thing. One example is when I recently watched season 4 again, and suddenly realized Riley's importance to Buffy. After watching the entire series, going back to that relationship, I realized that Riley was so good for Buffy at that time. Just that idea changed the entire season for me.
Buffy has so many layers that every time I watch a season, I keep peeling back more of them, and I'll see new metaphor and meaning that I didn't before. It's incredible. No other show has ever been that complex for me (besides Angel and even Firefly, although Firefly didn't have the chance to flesh it all out like B and A did). I believe that is why Buffy and Angel are the best shows ever. Because I think it is possible that there is no end to the layers.
I also wanted to say that while some people might think Buffy was not likable in season 6, I found her truly sympathetic. There are a lot of people who had to grow up really fast, had a parent die, became depressed, and engaged in very self-destructive behavior. When you've gone through something similar to what Buffy did, you're going to relate, and it's going to be very cathartic.
I got hooked on Buffy when I was going through a really hard time. I believe Buffy saved my life. I am such a different person since I became a Buffy fan. Some of my friends think I'm just nutty but they have no idea what I've become since I was changed by Buffy. The show inspired me to write, and finally complete my first fanfic story when I've been trying to write fiction all my life (and since then I've written a few more, and working on an original fic), I have a different outlook on life because I see my problems as vampires and monsters I have to fight (what would Buffy do?), and I finally feel like I belong to something, which is what I've been looking for my whole life, and I've joined a group of other local Joss fans and I'm now happier than I've ever been. Funny, that. Because I used to think I couldn't be happy if I was single.
So I'm going to agree with others that say that Buffy is different things to different people. Some people relate to Buffy season 6, some people dont. That doesn't matter because we're all very different and unique with valid viewpoints and it's ok if we disagree. It's more fun that way. We can debate and look at the show(s) from someone else's perspective. I know that being involved in the forums and reading other people's thoughts on story arcs has influenced my perspective when I rewatch the show. It's fun stuff.
And kudos to Whedonesquers for being so fair and unflamey during our debates! Rock on. (oh, god, did I just say that?)
electricspacegirl | November 12, 22:04 CET
[ edited by pezwitch on 2004-11-12 23:03 ]
pezwitch | November 13, 01:03 CET