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November 18 2004

Interview with Jeph Loeb mentions Buffy Animated revival. Jeph talks a bit about Buffy Animated in this interview. "Buffy fans everywhere will very soon have something to rejoice about".

"but Buffy fans everywhere will very soon have something to rejoice about".

Should we be expecting to hear that Buffy:Animated has found a network?
Hopefully that is what the news will be Simon.

I should have known better than to try and get onto the Comixfan site at this time of the day. The chances of not getting the Server Busy page were slim to say the least!
I think I'll add that quote to the subject line. Great find Numfar PTB.
You're the boss Simon, edit away.....

Funny how we stumble on nice things when we least expect, I was reading the article because I'm a Superman / Batman reader and endep up find something really relevant for Whedonverse fans.
Yeah I know what you mean, it's great when that happens :).
I really don't think I'll be interesed in this animated series. No Spike for one thing....that is the main reason I could care less. How can all Buffy fans rejoice if some of those fans favorite character isn't even included in the show. Blehhhh!
He said Buffy fans will rejoice. Looks like Spike fans will have to wait for the TV movie.
Well, I'm rejoicing!! Love Spike and all but he wasn't always a main part of the show and I'm really looking forward to the animated series!
Yeah, BUFFY fans only! Cuz Spike's interactions with Buffy, in all of their varied forms, were NEVER important or anything. More comic relief, really...that whole "You're the one" speech especially.
Is the Animated Series really designed to appeal to the same demographic that watched the original live action show? I'm sure some will watch, but from what I understand "the suits" are trying to target the 12-24 market, which means I'm not a part of their desired audience. At least, that's the impression I've been getting.
I'm not anywhere near that demo, but hey, I still watch Kim Possible.

Demographic, shmemographic... I'm still gonna watch it!
I think that the WB originally intended Buffy to be part of the 12-24 age demographic as well. Joss thought that it had appeal beyond that but I don't think the network did.
Ooh, always nice to read good news. Now we just need something more concrete. Like an air date and network :)
Can anyone else not load up this page?

Never mind.

[ edited by eddy on 2004-11-18 17:09 ]
Well, I started watching Buffy because of Spike, but I learned to love the rest of it! And since this is the only new, official Joss-sanctioned Buffyverse thing coming up, I'm all for it!
I don't get why some fans instinctly dislike it because their particular favorite isn't in it. Did it ever occur that since it's probably stand alone, they'd be able to do "un-told stories from season 2" if the first batch is successful. I don't think they'd go pass "Innocence" on the other hand, because of that whole sex thing. Can't have that in what will probably be a TV-Y7 rated show.

[ edited by eddy on 2004-11-18 17:12 ]
We can't always get exactly what we want, but for what it is, glad it's coming then not coming etc.
I'm with you there Rogue Slayer. Spike is, and always will be, my main reason for being a fan of the slayerverse. Without him i would have watched and enjoyed the two shows but he was the reason i became such an avid fan. Characters like him are few and far between.

Despite that i'm still going to be watching this series. Sure it's set in year one to begin with but there is always the possibility of the series moving onto years two and three as the show progresses so we may well see toon Spike yet.
First of all, I was way past the demographic of Buffy-clone Kim Possible, and I luxuriated in all the wonderful B/X-ish comraderie between Kim and Ron. KP didn't quite give you the same intellectual and emotional satisfaction as a Buffy fix, but I did get that rush of endorphins. Broadcast an animated Buffy, throw in Nic, Aly and Tony voicing Xander, Willow and Giles, and I'm there. You'd have to blast me out of my house to get me to miss it.

Second (smirk), who says Spike can't show up? Maybe pre-Angelus Angel and Buffy are working on a case in S1 Sunnydale, and Angel recognizes the demon as something he encountered during the Fanged Four days.

Something worth rejoicing about would be much appreciated. Cheers!
So I finally got to read the quote on a yahoo group list.

And everything you've heard about the show, if it didn't come
from either me or Joss is utter B.S.

Maybe its just me..but I thought of a certain actress' quote dissing Buffy animated.
Really? I assumed it was more to do with alleged Mutant Enemy insiders telling TV Guide and other websites about what stage the animated series was at.
Didn't they say that Buffy Animated would stick with season 1 and the characters would never age?

I really hope this happens. Maybe the show will appeal to the 12-24 demo but be intelligent enough for older adults at the same time. Like The Simpsons, Futurama, and King of the Hill. Just because it's a cartoon, doesn't mean it's just for children.

I'm a Joss fan. I'll watch anything he creates. I mean, at one time the idea of a show called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" sounded silly, right? Buffy Animated could be brilliant. We should all check it out (if it's picked up) to find out.
I'm in all honesty quite indifferent at this point to Buffy Animated news. Probably a combination of "on-again off-again" rumors, my personal coming to terms (after a long grieving process) with the end of the Buffyverse, and my (hopefully) entirely-misplaced belief that it just won't be that good. I freely admit, if you haven't already guessed, that I'm a purist, and that stuff that gets in the way of my received knowledge and love of BtVS bothers me. I don't mind the idea of reinvention, but if it isn't up to snuff, then I shall scourge it from my mind and soul.

OTOH, if Joss is centrally-involved (more than simply acquiescing to other people's ideas, I mean), there's no doubt that I'll happily be proven wrong, eat craw and hats, and be a dutch uncle for years to come . . . :)
Anything official Buffy stuff I'll give a shot (And I don't even mean the novels, because Joss & Co have no idea what those are like, and sure enough they're often so out of character and continuity it looks like glorified fanfic)

And as I recall the S7 episode 'Him' was originally an Animated Buffy script. If that was an indication it could be pretty funny. Especially rocket launcher scene, or the Anya/Willow exchange of
Anya: -"What are you gonna do, turn him into a woman?"
Willow: - "Ohhh!" *makes face like good idea!!*
Anya: - "Damn!"

It was a piece of fluff but it made me laugh. If that was an indication for the cartoon, it should be fun. And I have a feeling that if it's a success, Spike will be along for some guest shots at least.
EdD: you're not wrong about "Him", which I find quite delightful. However, the great strength of BtVS is its mingling of genres and moods. If BtAS fed us an unrelenting diet of fun and fluff, I should probably quite quickly sicken of it. But, yeah, give it a shot. That's the ticket . . .
I don't like the animation, but I think I can get past the looks if the writing is quality. I mean, I managed to deal with looking at James Marsters for several years....that's tough! ;) Or actually, I should say I managed to watch the ever-shrinking SMG and her horrid outfits of season 6 and 7 without much problem.

And SNT, Ed totally missed your dutch uncle remark....he's slipping...

Let's just hope it's a seemingly youth-oriented show that also appeals to adults, like the real show itself.
RogueS: and I put it in there just for him . . . Nor did I miss your sneaky swipe at SMG - to which I shall only reply that she did indeed have far worse outfits in Seasons 6 and 7 than previously. Does being dead really affect one's fashion sense that much? (Answers on a postcard only please.)
"How can all Buffy fans rejoice if some of those fans favorite character isn't even included in the show."

Cause some of us have other favourites? Or some of us like the ensemble? And some of us watch even if their favourite character isn't in it, or gets very little time on screen? Cause we love the show? And the stories?
Good find, Numfar PTB. I hope the news is that they found a network to call home. I don't care much for 'toons, however if an animation series is well written, I think I could get into it.

One question. If the forth coming news is that they found a network, what about Joss' agreement with FOX for no involvement in television for one year? Yeah, I know. A lot of 'ifs' there. Just thought I throw that in to consider.
Can somebody please tell me at what age i should start/stop watching something?, surely if it's good we watch it,if not we don't.If i'd have worried about demographics i'd never have watched Buffy in the first place.
Even if a favourite character isn't in a certain ep it sometimes gives us a chance to appreciate the other characters more,i never really got Oz to start with then (I think it was the monkey pants ep)all at once Oz was the coolest charachter on the show,i still miss him loads,oh bless!
Joss must be working/worked something out with FOX. It seems JM isn't the only one playing his cards close to his chest at the moment.
Cause some of us have other favourites? Or some of us like the ensemble? And some of us watch even if their favourite character isn't in it, or gets very little time on screen? Cause we love the show? And the stories?

That would be me, too, Caroline. I don't get the 'I'm not watching unless my [insert favorite] is in it' thing. I watch shows and films for the whole package, not just one person -- writing, cinematography, acting, directing, stunts, everything. It's Joss' and his team's creative efforts I'm interested in, whatever form they take.

Considering how important the Slayerverse has been to JW, I seriously doubt he's going to allow anything to be put out that would damage the Buffy franchise. I'm ready for this series so I can see the characters in stories that were too expensive to make on TV. Bring it on, I say! :)
I would assume Fox would be the actual company making the show, they do, as far as I know, own the Buffyverse rights. Joss couldn't make the show without them.
I'm a Spike fan but season one was okay. Spike was featured in at least one episode of the rest of the seasons, though, so maybe he could show up later? I don't know, like someone said above, you can't go past INNOCENCE because then it gets into sexually active Buffy, unless this cartoon is geared toward an older crowd.
I would love if at the end of some Buffy Animated episodes, they have a 5 minute segment called Spike & Dru, which would showcase their pre-Sunnydale adventures. That would be so cool. Then there could be a spin-off. Yeah, it would be a dark and violent show, but cool.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-11-18 22:49 ]
I love Joss, but I'm not going to get excited over something just because he's involved. I don't read the X-Men comics because they're just not my thing. For people who like to read comic books I'm sure they're brilliant. Season one of Buffy isn't what made me an avid fan of the show, I enjoyed the more adult themes that developed as the series progressed. So, a cartoon based first season doesn't appeal to me. I watch for the whole package too, for me, this package seems to be missing something. I'm not saying I won't give it a try, just that right now I'm not feeling giddy with anticipation.

[ edited by killinj on 2004-11-18 23:31 ]
I would love if at the end of some Buffy Animated episodes, they have a 5 minute segment called Spike & Dru, which would showcase their pre-Sunnydale adventures. That would be so cool. Then there could be a spin-off. Yeah, it would be a dark and violent show, but cool.

That does sound really awesome, but I don't think they'd let Spike and Dru be in cartoon format. That would be far too dark and bloody for mainstream cartoons, and unless this is supposed to be on Adult Swim or something, I'm not sure it would fly. I'd sure as hell watch it though!
"The Spike and Dru Show." Heh.

You know, I've always had this deeply sick idea in the back of my mind of Spike and Dru starring in a sitcom as bloodthirsty versions of Gomez and Morticia Addams, with various minions as Wednesday, Puggsley, and Fester. Except in this version, when one of the representatives from the "normal" world visits, Spike and Dru give him a pleasant guided tour around the house, feed him tea and crumpets--then, just as he's about to leave, they devour him and feed the entrails to the rest of their family.

"Dru--you spoke French!" Cue laugh track. Credits.

But FOX KIDS probably wouldn't go for it.
Although I am a fan of the test drawings for the current BtAS project I would be much happier if they approached it from a more "adult" direction...Perhaps animation stylized after "Ghost in the Shell" or "Aeon Flux"? I have reservations concerning the target demographic as well...BtVS always walked the line of good solid drama/comedy/horror and being campy (but never crossing the line), I am afraid that the animated series would do so.
For myself, I'm reserving any judgment/expectations until the show actually comes out. Am I giddy with excitement anticipating it? No, not particularly, just because I prefer live drama to cartoons and I also like the more adult themes of later seasons. Plus, they've been talking about it for so long that I have a healthy dose of skepticism as to whether it will ever actually air.
But if it does air, will I watch it? Absolutley, and without any preconceived notions or expectations, but certainly hoping that i'll like it. Until we've seen what it is, seems like it's early to create expectations of what we *think* it will be.
I love the buffyverse, so anything that ads to the cannon of stories is worth seeing in my book. Maybe after a few episodes i'll decide it's not for me after all. Or maybe i'll end up totally addicted. But either way, i'm keeping my speculation to a minimum right now.
First we just need to see if/when it actually airs...
I will agree with the reviewer on season 7, I found it just downright bad, from something that started out looking like it would be great, it dropped the ball big time.

1.The First in the beginning episodes seemed to be shaping up to be a great series ending villian, but just became a running joke by the mid point, nothing more than a villian who talked the talk, but that was pretty much it.

2.The whole man is Buffy stupid? Side plot, where she kept letting Spike off the hook, even though it was a pretty much a sure bet he was being controlled by The First, and was a danger to all of them, which was leading up to the whole "they all turn on Buffy" episode, which was nothing more than to have a Spuffy moment, then by next episode it was all over, all that for nothing, total waste of time.

3.How many potentials and extra characters can we cram in before season ends? started reminding me of "It's a Mad Mad Mad World" as the brought in cast kept getting larger and larger, and we got less and less of the Willow,Giles,Xander the ones who you know started it all, and it would have been great to focus on the last season of the show.

4.Giles coming back and getting the whole "Is he the First?" plotline, I mean cmon, he had to be touched at some point,please, total insult to intelligence. Oh and lets not forget Xander being totally written out of a entire episodes CWDP, Jesse anyone? That would have been an amazing segment for that episode, but nope.

5.Plotholes big enough to fly 747's through, clues that were given one episode and totally forgotten about the next, like the writers had no outline where things were going, they were just doing whatever they wanted.

6.Super Uber Vamps, toughest vamps ever, one of them just about killed Buffy and everyone else, by the end of the season they were about as threatening as the potentials, they became the Star Trek redshirts of the vamp world, everybody was killing them.

7.Andrew geek humor ran out in season 6, and again why is this guy who they found out killed Johnathan and was under the First's control just let run loose? Sheesh, it's like hiring ex bank robbers as bank security.

After seeing how much season 7 was becoming a train wreck I started taping them, mostly fast forward through them during playback, and shook my head at how many of the episodes were just god awful, you would think being the last season they would have pulled all the stops, and made all the original cast shine for this last go round, and all we got was major disappointment, compare this season to earlier seasons, like 2-3, and you can just see how bad the writing was, maybe because JW was busy doing Firefly, or the writers knew they were losing their jobs and didn't care anymore, whatever, it was just a major let down for such a great show.
I'm still a little confused about an animated Buffy geared toward young kids. Remember the WB always posted warnings to young and impressionable viewers and no way was Buffy even in season one, for kids. BTVS1 was violent and a little sexy and had an edge and two went definately dark with Buffy asking Giles (after her dying friend got himself vamped)to lie to her and tell her everything would end o.k.--the scene sums with the wonderful proposal that there is no definative white or black 'hats' in the real world. But kids need a beginning and a middle and a happy ending. They NEED a happy ending. Monsters are still too real to them, not enough things have happened for them to discern metaphor from frightening visage. The thing under the bed or in the closet is REAL to them. They are too young to balance complex questions. I'm with SMG on this one. (she said in a recent interview that she 'didn't get it.')

I don't get it. And I'm not sure if young kids should watch the toon--get hooked and the tune into BTVS the series expecting more of the same and be watching stuff too soon for young impressionable minds. FX doesn't carry the viewer warning.

When I was a kid--The Wizard of Oz blew my mind and I couldn't sleep for a week, let's not talk about 'Willard' and all those rats. Thank god, my parents screened my viewing, and that tv was a bit tamer. Kids have impressionable minds...what is Joss thinking?

I glad people can have a new play toy, but I'm sure hoping this is like a toon put on nightime cable geared more for late teen/early twenties. Anything earlier and it would have to be Buffy without at edge, in which case I agree with SMG--how can it be Buffy? And if it does have an edge...well--by virtue of making it a toon, aims it at a young audience and doesn't that have the potential to be irresponsible?

I wonder what Joss is planning.
Hi Nuke, let me reply to you point by point, as several things you said struck me this way:

1) I think the first was trying really hard. It tried to gain control using those close to Buffy; Andrew, Spike, the Potentials. That didn't work. It tried to freak out those close to the slayer; Dawn, Faith, Wood, Willow. Didn't work. It tried to use its own minions and recruit; the Harbingers and Caleb. Didn't work. Tried to use an ancient mystical weapon against the goodniks. Curses, foiled again! I think given the restraints of a weekly tv show, the First did pretty frickin' good. Even at the end when it threw all Hell's ubervamps (get to them in a minute) at our Scoobs, it just didn't work.

2) Ok first? Don't call B stupid. We all know better and that wording is just wrong. Second, I think she had a connection to Spike (no, not a stupid sex thing, she knew him pretty damn well by now). She felt that what he was doing just WASN'T his modus operandi (sp), and it felt off. She knew she needed him for the big battle and wanted to yes, give him the benefit of the doubt, but also wanted to exploit his power for their side in the battle she knew was coming. Once she knew for sure that he was being controlled, she did everything possible to get him freed, knowing that given free choice, he would help them.

3) Totally agree.

4) Re: Giles? Joss likes to play with us a wee bit sometimes. The whole thing gave Giles a bit of mystery. Hard thing to do with such an ingrained and predictable character. I'll give you that I do wish X had had a vignette in CWDP, but it didn't happen.

5) I think they did get a bit derailed, but whatever they wanted? No, it smacks more of "Hey, Joss needs a bit of time off" to me.

6) The Ubervamps? Can't tell you how much I agree with the loss of power they experienced. It was like their dilinthium crystals got sucked dry. They needed Scotty.

7) Liked Andrew when I watched the season. Can't stand Tom Lenk now because of his pouty and unfriendly attitude towards my fellow fans that wait hours in line to see him and he just sneers. And I do acknowledge that B was pretty busy, but yeah. He didn't need to be there. At all.

Season 7 was not a train wreck. It was a satisfactory end to an exceptional and amazing series. He was tired, man, admit it. Have faith. The genius we know and love will rise again. Look at Firefly. Its a beautiful 14 episode song. If you were disappointed, I can't flame you, but instead offer words of encouragement. You know he'll be back. Don't let your off feelings about the season color your perceptions forever. Its still the best tv you'll ever see. Can't wait to see what the future holds for us in the Whedonverse.
BforBeth: you've eloquently expressed many of my misgivings about BtAS. And I can't tell you how much I agree with you that Season 1 was not "cheesy" (well, in a few places only), but was serious and dark and adult even in the high school setting. I mean compare the season with any of the mainstream high school shows - it was much closer to My So-Called Life with supernatural elements than Beverley Hills 90210 or what have you. That scene from Lie to Me was one that should have got mention in the "best moments" thread, and there were plenty more where that came from.

Willowy: you rock. As always.
Willowy, thanks for saving me all that effort. I'd be the first (pardon the pun) to admit that season 7 wasn't everything it could have been but it was far from being a trainwreck. A few missed opportunities maybe, the Xander/Jesse thing and the return of Tara being the obvious examples, but overall a pretty climactic way to end the show.

A theory of mine concerning the Ubervamps is that the initial one to be sent after Buffy and the potentials in Bring On The Night and Showtime could very easily have been given a power boost by The First in the same way Caleb was seen to be doing. That would explain how he was clearly a far superior foe for Buffy than his fellow non-supercharged Turok Han that we saw in Chosen. Just an idea.

As for the animated series, the way i see it is you can go one of two ways with this. Animated series like X-Men Evolution are done in such a way so that you get great animation and interesting storylines that entertain all ages of the X-Men fanbase but there is clearly a restriction there as far as the more adult themes are concerned. Certainly you are never going to see Scott and Jean getting out of the same bed in the morning.

The second option is go the adult route with BtAS. There are many cartoons these days that are directed purely at the adult market. South Park, Futurama, Family Guy, The Simpsons etc all are created with the adult audience in mind, some more than others. However, with the possible exception of South Park, all of them get daytime play in the UK with little or no editing needed due to clever writing.

I think that a Buffy animated show, written cleverly enough, could work very easily. Much of what needs to be said with regards to adult themes to keep it realistic for the older audience can be done without being blatant and too in your face.

Joss wouldn't have started this project in the first place if he didn't think it could reach the majority of the Buffy fanbase, give it a go with an open mind when it eventually arrives. I'm betting we will all be pleasantly surprised as to how good it will be.
That's a good theory, Senior Partner. Here's another. The power of fear and intimidation gave the initial Ubervamp (and the First) an advantage. Buffy was seriously freaked when she first staked him and he just pulled it out and kept coming. That was one scared slayer that crawled out of that hole in the ground. The same happened the second time when she got thrown through the wall. And in that haunting scene when we see the badly beaten Buffy with that thousand yard stare, I believe she was realizing that it was fear that was causing her defeat.

I believe this became more evident with the 'war speech' and why she needed the potentials to see her defeat the Ubervamp. They weren't unstoppable monsters, you just needed to stand your ground. And we saw this later with the group of potentials with Faith. They were up against 3 Ubervamps, yet they circled their wagons, grabbed weapons and stood their ground. Then Buffy dropped in and dusted them in about 5 seconds.

Seemed the U'vamps became weaker as the gang realized they weren't that bad and with it, the First lost another tool. Maybe that's why it looked so upset at the end of 'Showtime'.
I'm not quite sure how we got talking about Season 7 on the BtAS thread - Nuke, perhaps you meant to post on the Season 7 review instead, but came here by mistake? - but since we're on the topic...
I watched Joss's commentary on "Chosen" yesterday, and in it he totally acknowledges that the ubervamps were way too easy to defeat in the finale, and makes no apologies for it. He said that, in the end, the message and the themes and the human emotions and development and the story that allowed him to get to all those - were more important to him than consistency. Or something along those lines. In essence, the statement was yeah, we were inconsistent, the ubervamps are too easy to defeat here, but I don't care, so deal with it.
Which, honestly, I guess i"m ok with. I have many, many problems with Season 7, which I've spelled out before. And i personally got really fed up with those endless episodes of Buffy trying to beat the ubervamp early in the season. But I did like Chosen. I liked its message, i liked the way he brought the series to a close. It wasn't a perfect episode not the masterpiece of finales like Restless or Becoming 2 or the Gift but it was a fitting conclusion to a great series, and I"m glad that if time was limited and there were some plot hangups, joss opted for emotional resonance and good themes over perfect plot continuity. (Even though the incconsistencies are certainly annoying).
Anyhow, I think we can come up with lots of explanations, as fans always do, to help the writers out of their hole, but i think it basically comes down to it didn't work for the story to have the ubervamps too hard to defeat in the finale, so they weren't.
Agreed acp, i'd take a great story over a consistent story any day and in the end that is what we got with season 7.

It's always good to try account for those little inconsistencies though. That's part of what being a fan of a tv series is all about. ;)

Madhatter, that's another good theory. Confidence makes a masive difference in any battle so this case would be no different.
The only thing I have with S1 is that they were all clearly trying to find the footing of the show, and the characters, which was fine. I think in early S2 they really hit their stride, but S1 was fine too. Some of the best High School is Hell metaphors were in S1. The invisible girl is maybe the purest example of that for me.

Willowy: "The Ubervamps? Can't tell you how much I agree with the loss of power they experienced. It was like their dilinthium crystals got sucked dry. They needed Scotty."

Yeahhh that I can never forget either. They should've said the first Ubervamp was maybe their King or something, or that the First had powered it up a tad. Buffy taking 3 days to kill one and then the green-as-grass Slayerettes (powers or no) taking them out by the dozen....even Anya? Eh, not really credible. I know Joss says it's not the point of things which is true but I don't mind a bit more consistency in those details myself.

The Giles not-touching-things was a just a little joke. Never really get why people are so incredibly hung up on it.

"Liked Andrew when I watched the season. Can't stand Tom Lenk now because of his pouty and unfriendly attitude towards my fellow fans that wait hours in line to see him and he just sneers."

He doesn't sneer so much....he just tries really really hard not to even look you in the eyes. Ahem...;) I'm told he's just shy. But I can see the character of Andrew separately. Funny, I used to hate him but he kinda grew on me in S7.

"Willowy: you rock. As always. "

That she does. Now about this 'Dutch Uncle' business........;-)
You're right, acp. We been driving down the wrong lane here and any further discussion on this matter should move to the proper link. Apologies Numfar PTB.

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