"After being dubbed a word-of-mouth hit by the New York Post just a month ago..."

Wha? I've heard more people say they like Kennedy than talk about this being good.

Angela | November 22, 23:00 CET

That just shows that Spike fans don't have a Neilsen box. Do they track Tivo ratings now? If not, then they should. I just don't trust Neilsen ratings.

Did anyone watch the episode? How was it?

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-11-22 21:04 ]

electricspacegirl | November 22, 23:00 CET

Good. Bringing in a great actor who was on a great show that they themselves cancelled won't help a crappy show that they feel the need to keep giving chances.
This is a crappy show, i watched about 3 minutes of it just to see who James was and what he was doing on this show.
I know that all of this Angel ranting has been done, but Angel was doing better ratings-wise in its 5th season than in its 4th, it was getting fantastic reviews (better than any other WB show), and it had a fanbase that would follow it to whatever timeslot. The Mountain is getting crappy reviews, truly awful ratings, and ZERO fanbase, yet the WB keeps trying with this thing. Smallville is also falling, so a big HA HA HA to the WB:)

Dhoffryn | November 22, 23:00 CET

Is it wrong to be so happy about the fact that these new WB shows are doing so badly.

I was especially happy to hear that Drew Carey's show (which was originally going to be given half of Angel's slot, as Jordan Levin's friends like Smallville and Drew Carey) was recently cancelled.

Is anything doing well this year, even Smallville (which is the network's only show that I watch), is doing terribly.

Hope the WB are regretting cancelling Angel as it did exactly what they asked it to ratings-wise.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-11-22 21:08 ]

Ghost Spike | November 22, 23:03 CET

WB don't respect what put them where they are, they should follow Angel's theme of redemption and redeem themselfs, beg on their knees for Joss Wheadon shows. I respect James reasons for doing the episode, he like the character and who he worked with, but it's not enough for it's audience, its as if angel fans purposely didn't watch it as a boycott to the studio.

SeanValen | November 22, 23:10 CET

It's as if the WB recognise how good and popular Angel was, they must sit around and say "hey, this show's not doing so well, let's bring on an actor from Angel". The WB need to learn that Angel actors don't save crap shows, and the fact that they bring them on and advertise that they're going to be there really just makes it even harder to figure out what the hell they were thinking when they cancelled Angel.

The WB need to beg Joss for a show, and I mean really get down on the ground so low that it hurts, they need to assure him more than one year. I'm sure Joss could rustle up enough of his cast to make a worthwile spinoff, seeing as the majority of them appear to be keen to work with him again.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-11-22 21:15 ]

Ghost Spike | November 22, 23:14 CET

Personally I am revelling in the misfortunes of the WB and I am unashamed to admit it. Their new shows have no audience; their old shows are losing theirs. Eat it, WB.

prufrock | November 22, 23:16 CET

The biggest Spike fan I know was unwilling to forgo "Desperate Housewives" last night for James on the WB. Too little, too late. Hmph.

wren | November 22, 23:23 CET

GhostSpike:
The WB need to beg Joss for a show, and I mean really get down on the ground so low that it hurts, they need to assure him more than one year. I'm sure Joss could rustle up enough of his cast to make a worthwile spinoff, seeing as the majority of them appear to be keen to work with him again.

Why would Joss want to do that?

PMMJ | November 22, 23:37 CET

My guess is he'd want to do that because he loves the television format, he loves those characters, and he still has more stories to tell with them.

Of course, he may not want to do it now...

ringworm | November 22, 23:42 CET

Couldn't make myself watch The Mountain when Desperate Housewives was on; I enjoy Marcia Cross as Bree Van de Camp too much, and despise the WB to a correspondingly opposite degree.

Having ranted vociferously and at great length regarding their stupidity in the past, I'll only echo prufrock's succinctly schadenfreude-y sentiments re: their precipitous ratings plummet. Ha! :)

Wiseblood | November 22, 23:56 CET

The Mountain is so bad it will make your eyes bleed. I muted it a third of the way through and only turned on the sound for JM.

lycoming | November 23, 00:05 CET

“Did anyone watch the episode? How was it?”

I watched Desperate Housewives and taped The Mountain to watch afterwards, having planned to fast forward through all but James’ scenes. For some reason I watched the whole horrid thing. Thank goodness the show still doesn’t air in Angel’s old time slot or that would have just been too much. They cancelled Angel for that???

Not even James Marsters could rise above that material, folks, that’s how bad it was. He is an actor, not a miracle worker and given that he had about nine minutes of screen time, I guess he did the best he could. He tried. You could almost feel him trying, but as he was giving it his all (albeit unevenly, but I think that was the fault of the script, the directing and the show in general) those ‘pretty’ kids gave him nothing back. I don’t know if it was their inexperience or they were confused by his energy or if they were in a deep depression from being on such a terrible show, but they had no chemistry with him. And he has chemistry with everyone!
I’m glad he seems to be going for the flawed/character roles, but I hope to never again be witness to such a waste of a talented actor.

bloodflowers | November 23, 00:31 CET

I taped the episode because I was too busy watching Desperate Housewives on ABC. I did see a scene toward the end of the ep with James, and was simply blown away by his talent. That's no surprise of course, but my first thought was "wow, he is WAY too good for this show". It's nice to know that even in terrible material, James can shine.

MindPieces | November 23, 00:34 CET

I enjoyed his performance, yes it was an odd little story that hardly fit the overall premise of the show (unnaturally beautiful people with more money than brains at a swanky ski lodge, as someone else said, think "Dallas" with snow). I enjoyed his little story line and not just because of James. (At MOZ you can download and watch only his parts, worth the download in my book.) While oddly written and with very little backstory it was something I could relate to a little bit better than the other story lines, people with problems apparently living on the "wrong side of the mountain" and making poor monetary decisions to boot was much more interesting to me. I personally thought he nailed the emotional stuff at the end just right without going overboard.

Some people found the quoting of Shakespeare, the tats, the alcoholism, the nicknames all at odds with each other but I think it was an effort to show there was more to the character than meets the eye (and obviously more depth than any of the other characters).

Note: no references to ex or aging rocker stuff that I could tell. Also, we were spared any cliched "drunken antics." Although the alcoholism was a backdrop to what happened. For what it was it was a nice little character for him to play. It could have been worse, they could have had him be the "beefcake" male version of the blond bimbo (one of the other guest stars) that seemed to only show up out of one character's past to show off her tight little hip huggered derriere. Of which we were graced with more than one close up shot of...He certainly added depth to his character, more than the entire rest of the show put together. The actor who played the son Sam did ok, and their scenes together were more than decent. The rest of the show, a cornucopia of whom has bedded whom, not my cuppa by a long shot.

Almost forgot, Media Week had slightly different numbers but still I don't think there's much that can help this show. Undoubtedly cancellation looms on the horizon I'm sure. I have no comment on The WB that hasn't been said before, so won't even go there.

[ edited by Gracie on 2004-11-22 22:52 ]

Grace | November 23, 00:42 CET

I broke my WB boycott to watch the show. Sorry I did, even for JM. I want that hour of my life back! I have never seen such poor writing, poor directing, poor acting, poor staging, poor pacing, poor costuming, poor sound, and poor lighting of characters in my life. I agree 100% with bloodflowers. Not even JM could rise above the material. His acting (and even his accent!) was uneven, although he was the only source of energy in any of his short scenes. It's true that the others in the scenes gave him absolutely nothing to work with. No, let me correct that. They sucked the energy from each scene, so he was essentially acting in a void. The whole thing was so painful to watch. Not only did I feel sorry for JM to be stuck in this mess, I felt equally bad for Mitch Pileggi, who, I take it, is a regular in this dreck. Both deserve so much better.

palehorse | November 23, 00:54 CET

the blond bimbo (one of the other guest stars) that seemed to only show up out of one character's past to show off her tight little hip huggered derriere.

Hubby and I were going to play a drinking game where you take a shot everytime blondie showed her caboose. Probably wouldn't have made it through the first half though without needing an ambulance.

James was good, but he was in it maybe 5-7 minutes. The rest made my brain bleed out of my ears. And made me kinda sad that James has gone from Angel to this. The one actor from the Buffyverse who deserves so much better because of his talent and hard work, and he's the one doing the crappiest gigs.

Rogue Slayer | November 23, 00:55 CET

What I find so amazing is that they start moving those shows that are doing badly to other days. Rarely a good idea, you usually lose what little audience you had. And in this case the WB puts up one of it's worst shows against the currently highest rated one on American TV?? Haven't seen Desperate Housewives, (looks kinda mediocre to me truthfully) but it's a hit. And they think the Mountain will do better there? I think Tru Calling almost may have had a better chance going up against Friends.

Sounds like they're trying to kill TM. And good riddance too, but then don't bother bringing James in. This only makes him look bad. And dear lord the whole show was far worse then I ever thought! Who wrote this? Who read this and thought "this is a hit"? Bunch of bad relationships, some bit of jailbait shaking her shapely ass right in front of the camera about 5 times per 3 minutes, serveral people who don't like their dad and that's about it.

All of it extremely bad dialogue. And James did his best in the last scene, and he's good at that kind of emotional moments, but pretty much everything else about his role was so badly written, such a string of horrible cliches, that I suspect in between takes, he must have been in his trailer, weeping uncontrollably.

EdDantes | November 23, 01:24 CET

"And James did his best in the last scene, and he's good at that kind of emotional moments, but pretty much everything else about his role was so badly written, such a string of horrible cliches, that I suspect in between takes, he must have been in his trailer, weeping uncontrollably."

Truer words were never spoken. That's an hour of my time I'll never get back.

This is the worst show I've ever had the displeasure to watch. Luckily I only taped James's scenes, so I won't have to stare at the jailbait ass anymore. As Xander said, "Can I be blind too?"

ASassyKat | November 23, 01:35 CET

It was bizarre. I agree with earlier posts and Zandra, (short laugh) I did the EXACT same thing. I actually MUTED the show..well...turned the volume down low...when James wasn't on.

Yeah...he did his best...which was good..he found the center of the character which was slippy at best. An alcoholic who is so dizzy he doesn't think to read the instructions on a capital asset he's investing in?

As a actor, the script, the words written are sometimes your only clues as to what it's all about for your character and if you take the info given in The Mountain as the base line notes; you have to play him as this guy who listens late and who's vision is so dim he's walking very close to 'crazy.'

James had to do a radical emotional state change within a matter of ten secounds. He had to go from being as happy as a hound baying at the moon to reaching for a drink within about ten seconds,(It was in the script) Now he actually pulled this off. I believed it...but this element of radical emotional highs and lows played like a completely different vibe in the overall show.

He did a nice sorrow scene, nice choaky throaty emotional bit--but his fellow actors just stared at him like button eyed dolls.

One doll, actually had her own THEME music whenever she came on screen which would have been funny...except...I think they were trying to be seriously sexy.

All the while, I found myself thinking, as these characters pranced around faux sexual situations like an extraterrestial's version of a Doris Day/Rock Hudson flick done up in french farce to the tenth power--I--I found myself thinking--just go back to THAT story. Ted and son. It really did stand out as the only story in the thing...and that in itself is a testament to James. When an actor gets you interested in his story...he's doing his job.

James is capable of pulling his intelligences, charisma and soul in--for the truth of the character...and the bottom line was--because Ted was so dim...(as written) James was dim...BUT. And here's the test...I was interested in his storyline. It's especially importantant to know when you are playing a guy like Ted and you have to pull yourself back in from view of the camera to make the script believable. I wanted to hear more of the Ted's story and because of that, James can be proud of doing his job.

Man, I sure would love to see what he can do, when he's at the center of the story. (coming soon)

BforBeth | November 23, 01:37 CET

Gracie, what is MOZ? I've never heard of it.

electricspacegirl | November 23, 01:37 CET

Well, I have to agree with everyone else; I went out yesterday to buy a splitter so I could get my cable to record TM while I watched "Desperate Housewives" (while not a Whedon-caliber show, it's definitely addictive).

Anyway, I had watched TM last week, just to get an idea of what was going on and couldn't believe how terrible it was; this week didn't change my mind any. I feel sorry for JM that he had to be in the midst of such a mess. He gave it a try, but the material was beyond help. I just hope this doesn't reflect badly on him. Although a short role, his obvious energy and talent just made a huge contrast to the rest of the show that it really was kind of pathetic. I sure hope he gets some good rolls soon. Hate to say it but if he was to be on a WB show I would have rather seen him on "Charmed"; at least it's not as dull as TM.

spikeangellover | November 23, 01:38 CET

What everybody else wrote. It was so bad.
Seeing JM - especially with his Shakesperean quotes - and also seeing The Grudge for the first time this weekend just reminded me of how much I miss the Buffyverse and those amazing actors - and how those actors need good material to shine.
BTW am I the only one who thought 'blonde bombshell' on The Mountain was too big for those oh-so-tight jeans of hers? But then I like them skinny like SMG and AH.

WWBD | November 23, 01:40 CET

If Jm disliked the script, I doubt he would've taken it. He did have to audition for this ya know, so he saw the script before filming.

eddy | November 23, 01:43 CET

I felt James did a great job but the show is s*** so no matter what you do it's still s*** and way too toturous to have to endure just to see some moments of talent in the form of James. I love that man but don't think I can watch that show again, I kept switching between TM and Desperate Housewives but I had pretty good timing and I think I saw most of James appearance but I really like DH and hated missing bits.

Passion | November 23, 01:49 CET

Sorry Electricspace girl, it's Marsters of Oz. Somewhere in that thread you can download it, there's even a higher quality version for now there too.

Don't know if I'm glad or not that I'm not the only one who noticed the caboose being waved in our faces! LOL. Yep, woulda been on the floor passed out if that had been a drinking game! A caboose with it's own theme song, gah.

I don't think playing a bit part like that will affect him adversely...I think he is actually being choosy in his roles...While DB has been decidely busier, we've yet to see all those "can't fail blockbusters" he's been doing since the end of Angel!

[ edited by Gracie on 2004-11-22 23:59 ]

Grace | November 23, 01:55 CET

I taped it and watched for JM. Poor guy ... I could feel him struggling to rise above the material. I'm sure the part looked good on paper. The direction, pacing, staging ... etc were all really bad and the other actors weren't giving him much in terms of interaction. Although, the scene with the son when he showed him the drawings had some heart. There were so many other things on television getting positive buzz last night, that I didn't expect the episode to do well in the ratings. It's not like many people are watching the WB. Have you seen the ratings for Charmed or Smallville lately - not good. I certainly don't watch the WB and never saw a promo for the episode on TV. The only reason I knew JM was on "The Mountain" is because I visit Whendonverse fansites on a regular basis. I guess there aren't as many of us as we like to think or none of us have a nielsen box.

killinj | November 23, 02:01 CET

Don't know if I'm glad or not that I'm not the only one who noticed the caboose being waved in our faces! LOL.

And when we didn't have her caboose in the frame, we had her tossing or flipping her long hair. Really annoying. Either end, this poor "sexpot," IMO, had plenty of "pot" shoehorned into those jeans but limited "sex" appeal. Everything was too forced, too stereotyped. (I really don't mean this as a slam against the actor in the role -- she wasn't given anything to work with, either.) Again, what a mess. I really want to see JM in a good role. And is it possible that TM is hanging on in the schedule because the WB have nothing better in the works?

palehorse | November 23, 02:23 CET

nener nener nener to the WB! I TiVoed it and really tried to watch it just for the love of James, but OMG what a horrible show. And James yes did so well with what he was given, but please...this is the one of the worst shows I've seen in a while. How do shows like this get on the air?

MandyMouse | November 23, 02:53 CET

I just watched the James parts and skipped the rest entirely. Aren't I glad ? I mean I knew the show was total crap but listening to everyone and their pain just made me aware of that even more. I was kind of worried even James might not be very well in this because of the writing but he shined in that crap. He had just 8 minutes and he made me care and feel for Ted Tunney.

Ted is a very OTT character, you can just see it from the way he talks and makes his future plans. A little boy who never grows up and takes responsiblity. The last scene between Ted and his son was very touching.I've never seen an actor who cries better than James. He made me ache for Ted in 10 seconds. He's an amazingly good actor and he's being on that show - even only fot 8 minutes- is a shame. I hope he'll never goes back to it. :: shudders ::

The Pierre Heist will air in February. Until then I hope we'll get to see him in something better.

How do shows like this get on the air?

They repeat better(!) than Angel. (Jordan Levin mentality)

[ edited by pelinxf on 2004-11-23 00:58 ]

pelinxf | November 23, 02:57 CET

Did anyone think that there was an underlying ploy by The WB to get Buffy and Angel fans to tune into this episode? Obviously, it didn't work. But will this have any effect on any long term plans for Buffyverse TV movies (assuming Joss still wants to make them years down the line)?

Simon | November 23, 03:00 CET

Did anyone think that there was an underlying ploy by The WB to get Buffy and Angel fans to tune into this episode?

Sure, just by the sheer fact of advertising him as "Buffy's James Marsters" they were hoping to reel in some new viewers. And they actually did get many of us who would never watch it otherwise, but it backfired because it's actually worse than any of us thought. Or at least me.

I'm pretty much losing hope for tv movies, since it will be a few years at least, and vampires don't age, but actors do! And unless both Angel and Spike shanshu, not sure the aging would fly.

Rogue Slayer | November 23, 03:04 CET

@palehorse, you said it so well,

"And when we didn't have her caboose in the frame, we had her tossing or flipping her long hair. Really annoying. Either end, this poor "sexpot," IMO, had plenty of "pot" shoehorned into those jeans but limited "sex" appeal. Everything was too forced, too stereotyped."

The hair, the white snowbunny outfit, plus she kept doing this pouty thing with her lips...ugh.

I didn't really realize til now that I also did the "kinda" mute thing as well, turned down the volume a little while watching all the other scenes and sort of went, "Blah, Blah, Blah" in my head...it backfired though because towards the end I was saying, "Butt, Butt, Butt..." in my head. See, more proof it would never have worked as a drinking game, alcohol poisoning anyone? I definitely WANTED a drink by the time those scenes were over though!

Not only do I think the individual part probably looked pretty decent on paper (Ted's, not the bimbo's) he may have landed it back before it was quite so obvious how bad the show really was.

Simon, I absolutely think it was a ploy by The WB. Or least they tried to use the advertising to their advantage. Which is a shocker in itself, since they barely advertised Angel when it was on...Not sure how it will affect future movies since TPTB at The WB have to know of the overwhelming, "I'm boycotting The WB!" that has been sang all over the net since the attempt to resurrect Angel failed. They have to know that many won't watch unless it IS something from the 'verse no matter which actor it is, even James.

[ edited by Gracie on 2004-11-23 01:28 ]

Grace | November 23, 03:22 CET

"See, more proof it would never have worked as a drinking game, alcohol poisoning anyone? I definitely WANTED a drink by the time those scenes were over though!"----LOL Gracie

MandyMouse | November 23, 03:46 CET

The thing is ... while the WB succeeded in getting several of us to watch, how would they know? I don't have a nielsen box, plus the network told me (indirectly via other fans at a rally) that I'm too old for their network and they don't want me. So, even if I had the magic box on my tv they'd discount me cause I'm not part of their target demo. I will tell them that I appreciated seeing JM on my tv again and advise that they get a better vehicle to showcase his talent.

killinj | November 23, 05:18 CET

Rogue Slayer - "I'm pretty much losing hope for tv movies, since it will be a few years at least, and vampires don't age, but actors do! And unless both Angel and Spike shanshu, not sure the aging would fly."

I can't truthfully comment on "The Mountain" because i'm one of the lucky UK Whedonesque posters who didn't have the option to watch it. Not that i was likely to anyway despite being a massive fan of James, too big a fan to see the poor guy suffering that material anyway.

Just wanted to say something about Rogue Slayer's comments on the telemovies though. Admittedly nothing seems to be happening in the near future, almost definately not until next season now i would guess, but this idea that it will be years before anything happens doesn't hold water with me.

For one thing, things in the world of television change over night. We could hear tomorrow how Joss has been in talks with a network to produce a series of telemovies, hell even a whole new regular series, and it would not be all that surprising. Certainly there is absolutely no reason to believe that something could not happen in 2005. It doesn't make the slightest difference what has been said by Joss today, he could change his mind or get an offer he couldn't refuse at any time.

As far as this thing about how vamps don't age but actors do, i read this comment all the time and so i'll say what i always say. So what?

I suspend my disbelief on a daily basis to ignore the fact that vampires aren't real so as to enjoy my favourite tv shows, i think i'm capable of ignoring the fact that the vampires appear a little bit older then they perhaps really should do. Okay it may not be accurate but it's just a tv series.

Frankly i'd rather have a six or seven year Spike series and ignore that this immortal vamp looks to be getting a few extra wrinkles than not have any more Spike at all.

I don't want it to seem like i'm directing this at Rogue Slayer, i'm really not, but it does annoy me a little when i read how fans would rather put absolute accuracy in the physical look of the vampires before getting some new stories told.

The Watcher | November 23, 05:37 CET

Perhaps souled (and re-re-ensouled) vampires do age but very slowly compared to people. Or a curse that makes them age. Or they both Shanshu Or ...Oh God ANYTHING!. Every time I think about these TV movies, I'm almost sick. I need some new Joss-written slayerverse stuff soon (Firefly is great, don't get me wrong, and I am looking forward to Serenity) but the slayerverse is my first love by a looooooong way!

[ edited by catalyst2 on 2004-11-23 03:51 ]

catalyst2 | November 23, 05:51 CET

I read all over the internet fans who tuned in for this crap for the first time to watch James. I wonder if any of us have a Nielson box?

There's a different spin on ratings at MediaWeek, but either way, the show is crap.

The kid said something about the dad's emotional mood swings, so no doubt, that's why James interpreted the character the way he did. That final scene just shows how talented he is, because James was incredibly moving with a script from hell. I am spoiled on the Whedon shows and LOST and over the years I really refuse to watch TV unless it's excellent.

Obviously, I love Da Marsters quite a bit. :)

twiggy | November 23, 05:53 CET

I believe the WB was using a buffyverse actor to draw Buffy/Angel fans. When will they learn? It wasn't the actors that made us watch Buffy and Angel, it was the shows themselves.

I find it funny that the WB cancelled Angel because it didn't repeat well with an average of 2.2 million viewers. The first airring of these TM episodes can't even get near those figures. Bet the WB really misses those 4.2 million viewers Angel used to pull in. Well, we tried to warn them they were making a mistake. Maybe they'll listen next time.

Madhatter | November 23, 12:26 CET

Not to defend 'The Mountain' or anything but the bean-counting suited f#*kwits who pass muster as TV execs these days could still be happy with this. Even though The Mountain's figures might be a quarter of Angel's, if the show cost a sixth (for example) of what each Angel episode cost, then they are OK. Hell they may even see themselves (in their limited bean-centred horizons) as better off !!!

Guess-work on my part but you have to remember the beans - nothing but beans count - not inspiration, not genius, not anything but BEANS!

catalyst2 | November 23, 12:40 CET

I don't have any good figures on costs. I know the season 4 episodes were costing around 2.2 mill each. I know Joss had to trim the budget for the fifth season, but I never found any good data on how far. But, I really can't see TM costs that far away from these. Last week's episode placed 106 so I think it's safe to say the WB isn't thrilled with the ratings.

Madhatter | November 23, 13:09 CET

Yeah, i would have to agree with Madhatter that, regardless of the difference in cost between an average episode of Angel and one of The Mountain, these ratings figures cannot be considered good news. Quite the opposite in fact.

No matter how ludicrous we believe the ratings system is the networks takes those figures very seriously so results like this can in no way be thought of as being acceptable the The WB.

Observe how little i care though! ;)

The Watcher | November 23, 14:04 CET

Well, while James Marsters is a HUGE name with people like us, to the average TV-viewer he is not really much of a name. (This is not a diss, I am a HUGE fan but ask my mother-in-law who watches ALOT of network TV or my Brother, a European movie marketing director....they have NO idea who JM is.)

'The Mountain' is not a brilliant show....I know the WB had tremendious hopes for it but....

Does The WB have ANY hit/"brand" show right now??? Charmed?

As people allready have stated The WB needs to bet Joss for a show...

Jonas | November 23, 17:43 CET

If I were Joss (and no delusions here because I know I am not but...), even if the WB came to me upon bended knee and offered to insert bull ants up the nostrils of every exec who was involved in the Angel cancellation, I would still tell them to f@*k off. Of course, Joss wouldn't do that as he's too cool and level-headed for that. Hell, the man's BDM gets shunted 5 months and he still finds the time to post here and is civilized about it!

catalyst2 | November 23, 18:13 CET

Does anyone really want to see Joss back on the WB?

I think he packed up his office for a reason. I think he knows the relationship and time for what he can do in that way is over.

I'd prefer to see a host of indies or something on cable so he can cut loose. I say, forget about any kind of thing on the WB, everybody hates the WB now anyway...so why not say 'thanks for the birthing and time in between' and wave bye bye.

I think BTVS blew wild and brilliant when it went to UPN. I liked Felicity quite a bit and of course BTVS and ATS but they are in a ratings war againest the insanity of 'reality' tv...or sexcoms like Desparate Housenags (sorry fans, NO desire to see people blessed with beauty and wealth and food on the table and needs met every which way but up the ying/yang; cry about their lonely vaginas. Don't like your life? LEAVE--don't bite the hand that married you.)

So the WB which created great shows in the past like Gilmore Girls, Felicity, and all things ME, in todays market, looks around and fabricates a sexcom to compete with other sexcoms or a 'reality show'--(if anyone could be really real with a camera in their face and the First AD telling them where to stand for better light.)

If you fault the WB, man, you GOTTA fault everybody. We should be grateful to them for what they have given us and realize the world has changed in the past four years. It IS a business. Would you want someone telling you how to run your bank account? Get mad if you want, but that won't change capitalism.

It seems all of network tv are now in the same artistic situation with the same massive overhead. And when there is fear, exec producers are afraid to take risks.

Indies, cable, and the internet seem to me to be the last realistic expression (in today's society)for balancing artistic aesethic with production overhead. The ceiling and budget is fixed on a single project and negligable compared to a long running tv show under contract.

I say, forget about the WB. Let w b be an acronym for 'way behind.' Or as the recent telecast of sunbunnies on The Mountain suggests:

(white behind)

uh...can I post that?

BforBeth | November 23, 18:53 CET

Have to agree with that. Given the option i would much rather see Joss take the slayerverse to HBO, Sci Fi or a similar channel for the next series, whatever form that might take.

However given no other options i would rather see the bridges rebuilt with The WB than never see a new slayerverse show again. There would need to be some kind of understanding that the show would be given a fair chance of survival (although i think that Joss would want some assurances before he even considered going back to television at all, no matter what channel) but if that was the case then i'd be okay with The WB's involvement.

I'm certainly not going to spite the future of the slayerverse just for the sake of spiting The WB anyway.

The Watcher | November 23, 19:04 CET

Senior Partner - I'd spite away regardless but then that's why I'm working in a nowhere place, living the no-one life and Joss has made 3 great series and is about to make 1 BDM (however delayed). I have no doubt Joss can play the game with the best of them (and I mean that in the good way!)

catalyst2 | November 23, 19:11 CET

Yep, whether we like it or not playing the network game again may well be the only choice Joss has in the end if he comes up with an idea for a show he really wants to see happen.

Hopefully he knows though that no matter where he goes with his next tv show we will gladly follow. Even if that is back into the belly of the WBeast! ;)

The Watcher | November 23, 19:16 CET

I do not know if this is related or not but I read last week in ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY that the Network channels had a lot more drama shows in development for next TV-season that the last.` The article mentioned "soaps" a la Desperate Housewife and crime shows in the Law & Order/Bruckheimer-CSI tradition.

I rather have drama then reality TV.

There was some mention of a new "Kolchak: the Night Stalker" show, so MY guess is that there is a some what interest in concepts that dip into the teritory of the supernatural/SF due to "Lost".

How doe sthis relate to the world of all thing Whedon? Well he is quite brilliant at the latter or drama in general I would say...

[ edited by Jonas on 2004-11-23 17:48 ]

Jonas | November 23, 19:26 CET

Actually, I ran across an excellent CNN news article on So much for all that reality TV that should add a few smiles here.

Madhatter | November 23, 19:42 CET

Madhatter, Thanks for that link

Jonas | November 23, 19:48 CET

It's a pleasure and you're welcomed, Jonas. The sooner reality TV fades and we get some intelligent dramas (such as Joss') back on the networks, the better.

Madhatter | November 23, 20:06 CET

catalyst 2, listen mate, if you appreciate all things Whedon you can’t possibly be someone who lives the no-one life!
I don’t mean that in a patronising, pat on the head sort of way, but as a genuine comment. Like you, I would also spite away with the spite fairies all night long (ok, the fairies bit is just me). Civilisation just means wearing clothes (and as we know now, Mr J prefers the no pants route), so lets be thoroughly uncivilised about all things WB.

miranda | November 23, 20:20 CET

God I just hope the network brass don't veiw this as an indication of James' talent or ability to draw veiwers. This show was doomed early on, and when the put in against Desperate Houswives, they signed the death warrant. James deserves SO MUCH BETTER than this. Please wake up and give him a chance to shine on a good show....please!!!!!!

[ edited by kathylovesspike on 2004-11-23 22:21 ]

kathylovesspike | November 24, 00:21 CET

Simon said (pun intended :) )
"Did anyone think that there was an underlying ploy by The WB to get Buffy and Angel fans to tune into this episode?"
Yes ...as RogueSlayer said their advertising proved it. Also, James said that the WB tried to get him to do some press for the show but his agent advised against it because it was such a small part. So he didn't do it.

I didn't watch it because I refuse to watch anything on the WB, even for James. And based on the reviews on this board and elsewhere, I'm glad I missed it.

[ edited by resa on 2004-11-24 02:45 ]

resa | November 24, 04:43 CET

Madhatter - great link.

"Part of our business is to get (a show) to last so you can syndicate it," Brillstein said. "You can't syndicate this dreck - just sweet music to my ears!

My anti-dreck crusade feels as if it has gained some momentum. Must now kick off the anti-dross crusade too!

catalyst2 | November 24, 05:28 CET

AS5 was excellent. Especially the second half. But, hey Whedon was able to focus himself entirely on the show. Also they didn't replace the core cast. (Except for Cordy :()

Koos | November 24, 08:28 CET

And we are suprised? Why? When I heard Marsters was going to be on the show I was estatic! I thought that maybe my years of deeming shows worth watching was off skelter! So, I watched about 35 minutes of a show--(pre his spot) and I can in all honesty say that I am dumber for having done so. I then again tried when rock star wino wannabe made his scene and less than 5 minutes after he entered, I hung my head in shame. The writing was horrible...wait...I just puked a bit in my mouth when I thought of the writing. Oh, James...didn't you save enough to choose your rolls?

RavenPurgatory | November 28, 09:05 CET