This is one of my favourite episodes from Angel. Faith, Willow, lesbian subtext between latter and Fred. It was a truly great example of Angel at its finest

Apocalypse | November 29, 19:08 CET

I loved almost everything about this episode, the only thing I didn't like was the Angel v. Angelus fight, it made no sense, how had Angel given Faith a tour through his lowest moments, when his soul was still trapped in a bottle. Apart from that (I liked the Faith's tour, aside from not knowing how Angel took her on it) I really enjoyed the episode, Willow was great in Angel and really should have made more appearences.

Ghost Spike | November 29, 20:21 CET

This is also one of my favorite 'Angel' episodes. Willow's little interaction with Wesley. Her stand off with Cordy, all excellent.

Ghost Spike, you're correct with that miscue in the Angel vs. Angelus fight scene. Everything made sense until the alley scene. Faith was seeing Angel's life thru Angelus' eyes. But, in the alley, Angel acknowledges Angelus while his soul was still trapped in the jar. They really should have shown that scene after Willow had smash the jar freeing his soul. Then it would've made sense that Angel was able to "join in on the fun". That always bothered me as well.

Still a great episode and a good cause.

Madhatter | November 29, 22:07 CET

It was an okay episode. As for Willow appearing more - I'd rather have had any Angel regular except Angel himself appear in just one Buffy episode!

Grounded | November 29, 22:11 CET

Yes one of my favorite Angel eps also.

I agree about the Angel vs. Angelus fight, but I think it was more like Angel still exsisted in Angelus' mind because he is still one in the same person. But I think it would have worked much better had it be the other way around (Angel having his soul during it) because they seemed to play it more that Angelus was always in Angel... kinda like a devil on one shoulder and an angel (no pun intended) on the other... or something to that effect.

Hopefully this will spark a good debate... slow day over here.

Spikecam21 | November 29, 22:17 CET

I liked Orpheus and all, but i never loved it the way some do. My biggest problem was that Willow spoke and acted like she was still Freshman college year Willow, not the Willow of the time. The Willow of S4 had grown and changed in many ways so when she started talking and acting like that while it was S7 of BtVS it felt wrong and poorly written. Eliza Dushku was a big plus and she almost made up for evil-Angel. I liked evil-Angel in S2 of BtVS, he was an excellent villain who actually DID villainous things. In Angel S4 however, evil-Angel merely acted evil and proclaimed that he was evil a lot but didn't actually do any evil things, he actually did more good than harm. He killed the Beast, brought the sun back, dusted a vamp(Rosario), all while not killing one human being. I also felt that David Boreanaz was overacting quite a bit. He acted like something Buffy said way back in "Pangs", "straight up, black hat, Tied to the train tracks, soon my electro-ray will destroy metropolis" and that is just annoying. There were many things that i liked about the ep (Faith, Willow+Fred, Lorne, Willow and Cordy face-off, the 70's scene where Angel fed off that human, among others)but evil-Angel and the poor writing of Willow have always annoyed me quite a bit.
As to the topic, i think that it would be cool to have one of those scripts, but i have other Jossverse things that i want more. No offense to Adrienne Wilkinson, but i don't think that her signature is going to boost the bids.

Dhoffryn | November 29, 22:39 CET

Yes college freshman Willow showing up in LA is a common complaint, and one that I happen to agree with. She seemed to have no footing there. Until she started working the mojo, that was cool.

As Dhoffryn said, there WERE a lot of things to like about the ep though. I loved that both Faith and Willow were there, and seeing Aly and Alexis act together was a treat. Loved Wes in that ep.

Agree also on the black hat Angelus. All he was missing was a moustache to twirl.

Willowy | November 29, 22:55 CET

Yeah, I loved the "darkness" convo between Will and Wes, that was great.

"I had a woman locked in my closet."
"Oh, thats dark"
"It doesn't compare" (or something like that)

Hilarious.

Spikecam21 | November 29, 23:06 CET

If you go onto Adrienne Wilkinson's fan club page and look under her resume, her role on Angel was listed as "co-star."

The flapper was the co-star?

Eh. Whatever.

Smile_dammit | November 30, 00:03 CET

She was in it for all of 20 seconds and she's a co-star? No offence to the actress, but I think I'd word her role on the show as "extra" (or whatever one up from being an extra is, seeing as she said a few words).

It's a great cause, I just don't feel having her signature on the front is going to up the bidding that much (I'd rather have it without actually).

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-11-29 22:09 ]

Ghost Spike | November 30, 00:08 CET

I really enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on the episode. There are some well thought out views about what the episode meant here. It makes me want to go back and watch it again. Personally, I loved the episode.

And lemme just throw this out there because I really don't want this post to turn into a detailed dissection of how the role is labeled on Adrienne's resume or how much having her signature on the front cover is going to bring in:

In the old incarnation of her resume, I had her appearance on Angel listed as "guest," but when I got the updated resume from Adrienne, it listed the appearance as "co-star." I don't know exactly what dictates how one gets a particular role title (i.e. - "guest star", "recurring", "co-star") for a project, but I assume that call was her management's.

This cause is something that is very near and dear to Adrienne's and the fan club staff's hearts. Adrienne is a dear friend of mine and she has a heart of gold. These scripts are from her personal collection and she's donated them so someone else can benefit from whatever money they bring in at auction. Do I personally think that having Adrienne's signature on the front cover is going to bring in hundreds of dollars? No. Frankly, she's not that well known outside of another fandom. The whole purpose of my posting the link here at Whedonesque was because I thought someone might be interested in the scripts -- not Adrienne's signature.

Mods, I'm sorry if you feel that I'm out of line in adding this comment, but I promise this is all I'll say on the subject.

[ edited by Arista on 2004-11-29 22:45 ]

Arista | November 30, 00:43 CET

To be fair, unless I'm very much mistaken, that's how the "extras" roles are listed on the show. You've got your title stars in the opening credits, then your "Guest Starring" list that runs over the top of the first act, and then finally the "Co-Starring" list in the end credits. The last two titles being granted by the credits.

I'm far too lazy to pop a DVD in to check, but if that's how these guys are billed by the show itself .....

[ edited by Jet Wolf on 2004-11-30 02:06 ]

Jet Wolf | November 30, 04:06 CET

Yep, the ones on the closing credits (where I believe she was) are listed as co-stars, it just seemed to me that "co-star" suggested quite a big role, i thought it went extra, guest, co, recurring, regular, and I was mistaken.(special guest credit right after Joss in the closing is usually reserved for surprises eg. Giles at the end of the penultimate season 6 buffy, Drusilla at the end of "The Trial", and sometimes a guest is so special theyre not even credited eg. Lindsay at the end of "Destiny")

Ghost Spike | November 30, 04:58 CET