I hadn't even realized it was the same bag from Restless. I guess I'll be watching that episode tonight.

BufSlyAngel | December 14, 09:07 CET

I liked that article,Joss's shows have so much quality in them, you would choose those shows if you were stuck on desert island, with the only powersource being routed to tv and dvd player. :D

I remember something Luke Perry said at Halloween 2004 event about Joss, although Joss didn't direct the buff film, Luke knew very early with the ideas he had, the film would of been something else if he did it, and you differiented between Joss and J Michael Stanski(spelling)the B5 creator, who also did his show Jeremiah.

He said JMS could sit down and splash out like 20 stories at once, they'll be good, but Joss won't splash out 20 stories at once, he'll do one very good one you want to re-read over and over again and find something new, and given we got 12 seasons of buffy and angel all together, there's loads in there.

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-12-14 07:50 ]

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-12-14 07:51 ]

SeanValen | December 14, 09:45 CET

I've always liked "I Robot...You Jane", but that's probably because I'm a computer geek and I really liked the interaction between Giles, Fritz, and Jenny Calendar:

Giles: I still prefer a good book.

Fritz: (self-righteously) The printed page is obsolete. (stands up) Information isn't bound up anymore. It's an entity. The only reality is virtual. If you're not jacked in, you're not alive. (grabs his books and leaves)

Ms. Calendar: Thank you, Fritz, for making us all sound like crazy people. (to Giles) Fritz, Fritz comes on a little strong, but he does have a point. You know, for the last two years more e-mail was sent than regular mail.

Giles: Oh...

dcubed | December 14, 09:47 CET

dcubed, I agree, the thing with the shows, the characters are so great, it becomes actually difficult to not create a entertaining episode, once you get used to the show, you compare story to story, but the foundation of the characters are very strong, Giles is a great character, and casted so well with Tony Head, the casting on the shows is top notch.

SeanValen | December 14, 09:55 CET

I just came home from watching "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "The Harvest" with my friend who had never seen the show. I noticed that when Buffy opens her chest and takes out crosses and stakes, that there's a jar of what looks like communion wafers. What do communion wafers do to vampires and why were they never used on the show? I had never noticed them there before, and I've watched that episode many times.

On a side note, my friend, who never watches television except for Six Feet Under, totally loved the episodes. I loaned her the first season. I just know she's going to get hooked on it. And now I feel like a drug dealer. But I'm so happy when I can convert someone into the fandom. Or maybe it's more like being a cult leader or something.

And I love all the episodes in season 1, probably more so now for the nostalgia factor. I Robot, You Jane is still good because the characters are interesting, the dialogue is witty, and it's a lot of fun. Sure, it's campy, but I like that sort of thing. I can make fun of Buffy but still respect it for it's intelligence. No Buffy episode is a bad episode, at least not in my opinion.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-12-14 08:56 ]

electricspacegirl | December 14, 10:30 CET

See, I think Dan's comment about "I robot.." being the worst episode of BtVS but still being better than anything else out there is a little misleading that he thinks it's a bad episode. I feel that every episode of BtVS, AtS and Firefly were great but some had some things in it that people may not have liked but still better than anything else on TV and so far above anything else on TV that the only thing we can truly compare them to is other episodes in the Whedonverse. So some people like to make top ten lists and where there is a top ten, there has to be a bottom list too, I don't think anyone thinks (or at least I don't) that there truly is a horrible episode to be found but when you start listing from the best down, some have to be labeled the worst even though they are actually pretty great - just not as great as the top episodes are. For me, the only episode I'd list as the worst is the one where Riley comes back with his wife. That part just didn't ring true to me that he already had a wife in such a short period considering how much he allegedly loved Buffy. But, that said, there is a lot to that episode that I really, really liked.

When I watch BtVS, AtS and Firefly now, I do it with a bit of sadness that it is in the past and I wonder if there will ever be anything that great to look forward to week after week. I'm enjoying "Lost" and "Desperate Housewives" but it doesn't fulfill me in the same way and there isn't that obsession and longing for the next episode or the next season to start. I miss all the characters and I've grown to love them all, even the ones I thought I may not have liked when they first arrived (well, I haven't rewatched season 7 yet so my opinion of Kennedy hasn't changed).

I loved every season of BtVS, some more than others but each has a special place in my heart and I feel the same way about AtS and Firefly (and will always resent Fox for killing it just as it was getting so great).

I'm thankful we have Serenity to look forward too, and hopefully that will lead to a couple of sequels as well.

Firefly Flanatic | December 14, 11:04 CET

"It's truly ironic, in this day of reality TV, for a show based on supernatural fantasy to be the most emotionally realistic show on television." A critic wrote those words in an article about BtVS shortly after the show ended. It was a fine article though I don't remember most of it. But that statement stayed with me because it was so true. And I believe this is why Joss insisted on hanging such a silly title on his show. It was his way of saying, "Never judge a book by its cover." On the surface, BtVS looks silly. But for the objective minded thinkers who can look beyond that, it quickly becomes an entirely different experience. That was the audience Joss wanted to tell his story.

Like many, I must have rolled my eyes when I heard they were making a series based on the movie. But I remembered that Joss Whedon was good with witty humor so I figured I give the show a watch. And that's how I treated most of season one. Then came 'Nightmares' and 'Prophecy Girl'. Those were the two shows that made me realize there was a much deeper meaning in mind here. Halfway through season two, I knew this show was unlike any other on television. Though I've watched the episode 'Passions' at least 20 times, I still get chills when Angelus takes pleasure watching Buffy and Willow in their grief over Jenny's death. Joss wanted us to see how evil and cruel this person was and that scene said it all.

And it's scenes such as these that will ensure BtVS will be as huge as a cult classic in twenty years as it is today. Though fads and trends come and go, the human condition never changes. In twenty years, I doubt you will hear much on 'Friends' or 'The X-Files'. But you will still hear echos on BtVS because Joss painted such a powerful message within its episodes.

Though we are sadden there's no current Whedonverse show on television, I don't think Joss is quite ready to toss in the towel as of yet. I'm sure he has several stories spinning in his mind and, when the time is ripe, he'll drop another 'verse on us to ponder. And lets not overlook the many talented writers Joss had under his wing for 12 years. I hazarded a guess that they picked up a thing or two and will apply what they've learned when they get their shows. Call me 'Mr. Glass-half-full, but I think the future is quite bright.

Madhatter | December 14, 14:08 CET

Couldn't agree more Madhatter.

I was reading something Alias related just the other day where it pointed out that we won't really see the true effects of the success of quality drama series such as Lost or Desperate Housewives until next year. They have proven that this type of television show is still wanted and, when done with enough thought, care and quality, can be extremely popular. More to the point it has shown that the networks can no longer count on reality television to fill their schedules if they want to keep people interested.

Now i can't see reality television ever going away but if the networks can finally understand that they need to find a balance in order to satisfy everybody and not saturate the schedule with any one type of show then that will be good enough for me.

I'm more than happy to let the reality television fans keep their choice of viewing as long as there is also a place for the Whedons of the world to play their part in television. Hopefully it won't be too long before the network execs are banging on Joss' door for him to create them the next rival to Lost. The next slayerverse show may well be closer than we thought after all.

Koven | December 14, 15:52 CET

when Buffy opens her chest and takes out crosses and stakes, that there's a jar of what looks like communion wafers. What do communion wafers do to vampires and why were they never used on the show?

electricspacegirl - I'm guessing they work similar to crosses. In Dracula (the remake by Francis Ford Coppola) Van Helsing breaks them up and makes a circle out of the crumbs, the Dracubabes can't cross the line of wafers. I think he also touches one on one of the vampires head and it burns her. I don't remember ever seeing Buffy use them, she doesn't use Holy Water much either, guess they aren't as graphicly pleasing and don't look as strong as when someone holds a cross up high. Buffy really is a kind of "plunge and move on" kinda gal.

[ edited by Passion on 2004-12-14 15:24 ]

Passion | December 14, 17:24 CET

I always enjoy reading his opinion pieces and reviews on Slayage. And we share very similar feelings toward the shows. I'm unsure as to what he meant by Angel's ending being 'immature' though. Perhaps he meant something else

Mcb | December 14, 17:50 CET

Erenberg's piece sums up my own feelings perfectly. When I return to BtVS - which is so frequent it's embarrassing - it blows other tv out of the water. Aside from the obvious great writing, humor, acting, plotting etc., the ME shows all possess an intoxicating magic that is uniquely their own. I can watch these shows over and over and over again and I see more and feel more every time. Astounding. What *is* it with the repeat viewability of the ME shows? Part of it is the fun of picking up on important clues to the mythos such as the Restless bag - Nikki Wood bag. But there's much more at work here. These shows are Art. Yes, they are. To make a lame analogy, the shows remind me of the Mona Lisa painting. Like the painting, they draw you back again and again because there is so much hinted at lurking beneath the surface. You look, you ponder, you marvel. And just when you think you've got it, you view it from another angle and everything shifts. And hey, if Buffy's last expression in the series doesn't evoke the Mona Lisa smile, I don't know what does.

As for I Robot..., I have always loved the ep. Sure, much of the internet talk is hopelessly dated. Sure, it may not be one of the best eps of BtVS. But there is so much to enjoy in there, so much humor and great interaction between the Scoobies. And it has that special nostalgic season 1 glow. I adore season 1, lower production values be damned. Season 1 was where it all started, where our dear gang begin their fabulous adventures and more importantly, become a family.

Sheesh, all this hoopla going on now about the Golden Globe nominations. That the ME shows weren't heaped with awards is a disgrace.

phlebotinin | December 14, 17:56 CET

Mcb, I think by "immature" Erenberg meant that the storylines and themes in AtS 5 weren't allowed to evolve to the level they were meant to - Joss did have big plans for AtS 6 that would build on what had been laid out in AtS 5. But alas, we all know what happened instead. Nevertheless the series finale stayed beautifully true to the deepest themes of AtS and it was a dynamite finish. A premature finish, but a dynamite one. (I think maybe Erenberg might have better used "premature" than "immature.")

phlebotinin | December 14, 18:04 CET

That's the word I think he meant also

Couldn't think of it when I wrote my post (much like Erenberg perhaps ;) )

Mcb | December 14, 18:28 CET

My favorite scene from "I Robot ..." is the discussion between Giles and Ms.Calendar about the differences between books and computers:


Ms. Calendar: Computer's don't smell, Rupert.

Giles: I know! Smell is the most powerful trigger to the memory there is. A certain flower or a, a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences... long forgotten.
Books smell. Musty and, and, and, and rich. The knowledge gained from a computer, is, uh, it... it has no, no texture, no, no context. It's, it's there and then
it's gone. If it's to last, then, then the getting of knowledge should be, uh, tangible, it should be, um... smelly.


Great stuff.

Lince | December 14, 18:37 CET

I believe the writer meant premature , saying that Angels ending was immature is insulting. He totally used the wrong word there.

Passion | December 14, 18:56 CET

In twenty years, I doubt you will hear much on 'Friends' or 'The X-Files'. But you will still hear echos on BtVS because Joss painted such a powerful message within its episodes.

I actually hope that in twenty years the Buffyverse is still very much alive with running Spin-Offs and/or movies.

Koos | December 14, 19:39 CET

Like many of you I now watch the DVDs over and over again with a mixture of gratitude and sadness. Sadness both for loosing new episodes that could have been and because there now is so little in TV land that even comes close.

However, this may make you smile: without wanting to go too much off topic, I read a really interesting article in ‘Der Spiegel’ on a recent visit to my native Germany which talked about very large advertisers starting to take a stand against the flood of reality programmes on German TV.

Some quotes (my translation):

‘TV channels are stuffed with the same formats, and quality is abandoned’ moans Uwe Becker from Unilever.
Stefan Willhaus, marketing manager of Wuestenrot [a leading mortgage company] says that ‘standards have eroded in the last 2-3 years’ and ‘some television programming is degrading to humans‘.
‘We are very concerned about the loss of quality’. says TUI [a leading travel agency].
‘What is being offered on TV screens recently is less and less suitable for us as an environment for advertising’ says BMW brand manager Torsten Mueller-Otvos. ‘Personally, my time is too valuable to watch this. I am assuming our target groups feel the same way.’

More importantly the article talks about how large advertisers are now starting to refuse to advertise around reality programmes or are demanding large discounts.

The article goes on to say that TV bosses defend themselves by saying that the companies simply want more discounts and that unless they are prepared to pay higher prices for ads, the broadcasters are forced to import cheap, proven formats.

It concludes by being very pessimistic about changes in the near future, as both advertisers and viewers are continuing to abandon TV, it is creating a downward spiralling effect, forcing the broadcasters to discount even more and buy in more cheap reality TV.

Personally, this just confirms my opinion that TV is becoming a second rate medium. I think that Joss is right to abandon it for the forseable future and concentrate on other things, much as I would like to see more of his work in a series format. I hope direct to DVD/download becomes a viable option at some point. More creative freedom would of course then be an added bonus.

miranda | December 14, 19:47 CET

The impression I got was that US TV drama was having a renaissance in the last few months. What with the likes of Lost, Veronica Mars, Desperate Housewives, Battlestar Galactica and Deadwood proving to be critical hits.

Simon | December 14, 19:57 CET

Angel’s being somewhat immature maybe–because it was cancelled, the actual product being quite brilliant

This is the quote about Angel's ending - he's clearly stating the cancellation was immature, and the ending of the show brilliant.

As for the whole 'worst Buffyverse ep better than any other show' thing, I think that's being a little too generous. Yes there are many, many great eps across Buffy/Angel/Firefly, but there are plenty of mediocre ones too and a sprinkling of bad ones.

Grounded | December 14, 20:24 CET

You're right, Grounded, that Dan was talking about the cancellation, but he still picked the wrong word. Calling a cancellation "immature" doesn't really make any sense, although we intuit what he's getting at by mentally substituting "premature" instead.

I also agree with you that there are mediocre episodes of BtVS and AtS out there, although I definitely wouldn't say there were plenty. The catch is that *any* episode of BtVS, with my delight in and recognition of the characters themselves, plus the whole teaser then thudding Nerfherders and credit sequence that gets my blood racing, makes me somewhat happy. Nevertheless, to take BtVS first, there are probably three episodes out of the entire series that I never rewatch; not that there aren't great moments of humor and characters in each one of them, but the overall plot or feeling of the episodes just annoys me a bit too much to stand. So, yeah, I'd rank other shows and stuff above those. As for AtS, well I know we disagree here ;), but there are probably a dozen episodes that I never rewatch for much the same reasons. And even in Firefly, I think I've only been moved to watch "Heart of Gold" one and a half times - the premise doesn't do it for me.

Even so, I think we throw out the standard "even bad BtVS/AtS is better" shorthand just to put our criticisms and nit-pickings into perspective. I could find fault with pretty much any episode of BtVS if I really tried. For example, last night I was watching "The Dark Age," which I adore, but found myself thinking once again: "what on earth was Eyghon doing for all those years between being first summoned and then let loose, and then finding the group members again? It's not as though they were hard to track down, with the tattoos and all . . . " Or the minor but oft-pointed out slip that Cordy doesn't actually hear the police say anything about a homicide, but still reports that fact to the Scoobs. But none of that matters because it has so much good stuff going for it. Just like "I Robot You Jane," which is, truth to tell, kinda silly, but has all the great books v. computers stuff folks mentioned above, plus the lovely spotlight on Willow.

SoddingNancyTribe | December 14, 20:44 CET

Does anyone know what happened to slayage.tv? Dan reminded me that there's a lot of great Buffy writing that I haven't read yet, and it doesn't seem to exist anymore. Did it move?

ringworm | December 14, 20:56 CET

ringworm it was there a couple of days ago but I have a feeling the domain name registration has expired and someone else has snapped it up.

Simon | December 14, 21:24 CET

What? No more slayage.tv? Is that the end of academic buffyology central? That would be devastating. Surely these folks will pop up somewhere with a new url. Wich they let us know. And, by the way, I'm waiting for a sequel to 'Fighting the Forces'.

TactGuy | December 14, 21:59 CET

Angel’s being somewhat immature maybe–because it was cancelled, the actual product being quite brilliant

This is a clunk-ily worded phrase, and I can see now, after everyone has looked at it and responded, that I think he was calling the WB immature for cancelling it. Maybe.... um... or he used the wrong word. Yeah. ;)

Miko | December 14, 22:05 CET

To end further speculation about Dan's choice of "immature" v. "premature," here's a message from the man himself sent an hour or so ago:

"I'm Daniel Erenberg. I'm a writer for slayage.com and, though I'm not a member of the Whedonesque site, I do visit it often. I wanted to clarify that I did indeed mean to use the word "premature" regarding Angel's cancellation. While "immature" isn't technically wrong, I can see how it might have seemed as though I was bashing the end to some people. In actuality, next to "The Body", I think "Not Fade Away" was the best episode of either show's entire run. Please post this on the Whedonesque site, so my words do not continue to be misread.

Thanks.

d."

So there we have it. Graciously amended, as delivered by Mr. Erenberg.

SoddingNancyTribe | December 15, 01:09 CET

He thinks Not Fade Away is the second best Buffy/Angel ep? Insanity!

Grounded | December 15, 01:47 CET

I don't know how someone can think season 7 was great, and then think "I Robot--You Jane" was "borderline-stupid"...at least "I Robot--You Jane" was being silly on purpose...and I thought it was silly in a fun way.

Ilana | December 15, 03:11 CET

Ilana: I think he was referring to his initial reaction to "IRYJ," which he later revised. And I think it's hard to compare one episode to an entire season in any case. Frankly, I think the premise of "I Robot" *is* borderline-stupid (um, a demon got scanned onto the Net - even in fantasy-land, that kinda stretches credulity a tad), but I don't care, cos there's lot of fun to be had in it. I suppose "borderline-stupid" doesn't have to be as much as a put-down as it sounds . . . if that makes any sense at all.

SoddingNancyTribe | December 15, 04:10 CET

" the bag Robin Wood gives Buffy in season seven’s “Get It Done” was the same bag Buffy found mud inside during her dream in season four’s “Restless” "

I didn`t know that. It`s amazing to know something new :D

I`m trying to convert people of my classroom, but i can`t ¬¬

Angel TheVampire | December 15, 04:10 CET

Nice of him to clear up the confusion over his use of the word "immature", that he really meant "premature", which is the word I felt he was looking for. And I agree that "Not Fade Away" is a great episode.

Passion | December 15, 04:36 CET

phlebotinin - What *is* it with the repeat viewability of the ME shows?

They are not shows - in 2097, I was working in a nursing home, and this shriveled little old lady (who must have been a real looker in her day) called Bunny (? not quite sure there) wanted to tell me about her life. Everyone she knew had died before her and she just wanted to tell somone about this extraordinary life she had lived (and died, I guess). And then she told me the most amazing tale. I don't even know if it was true or not - I mean blonde Valley ditz kills *vampires* - but it was powerful and inspiring. I could have listened to her forever but she told me about seven or eight years of her life that well, just blew me out of the water. Funnily enough, she stopped there, quite arbitrarily, and then muttered some out-of-context comments about Rome and immortality(?). I am inspired by this amazing woman! She touched my heart and made me question my world views more than anyone else I have known in this nursing home.

She also made a joke about someone called Mr Pointy (not sure I want to hear the backstory on how he got that nickname!) and then got really sad.

catalyst2 | December 15, 06:12 CET

I think if you look at 'I robot you Jane' as a stand alone episode it has a pretty bad main story, but of course the witty banter is always a great. But as a story arch this episode introduced a very key person in Jenny Calendar. Lets not forget that her character and her death is a key reason Willow gets into magic. Also the chemistry between Jenny and Giles is wonderful, so later her death especially by Buffys love Angel, has a profound effect on Buffy, Giles and Willow.

Also, this episode IMO had a another meaning. This was a time when internet chat rooms and online dating was becoming pretty popular and Joss and comapny used it to show that meaning strangers in a chatroom can be pretty dangerous.

I still really enjoy this episode minus the ending with the cheesey robot fight scene, its so much better then that Beer episode, that just left a bad taste in my mouth (pun intended)...thank you thank you I'll be here all week.

Gunn 2 N's | December 15, 07:54 CET

catalyst2 - hee!

But my goodness, that Bunny must have been oooooooooold in 2097....

phlebotinin | December 15, 08:25 CET