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"I should have slaughtered people weeks ago!"
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December 15 2004

O Joss! My Joss! A columnist laments on the lack of Whedonverse TV. "There was more truth in a single episode of Buffy or Firefly than there is in the entire two-year run of The Swan".

Or trying to win the respect of ...... or Tyra Banks
WTF? We obviously haven't got this one here yet! Sounds so bad it might be 'camp'! Sorry, just had to add that after the camp vs camp vs camp debate earlier!
Well I don't agree that Lost has cookie cutter plots (actually I think it's long term plot is one of the strongest I've seen on television for awhile.) I do agree with a lot of what this has to say.

Praticularly about reality TV, I have to say any claim that reality TV is at all "real" just kind of makes me laugh.
I'm really, really enjoying Lost but I'd drop it in a heart beat if I was told I could only watch it or a new Joss Whedon show.
But the fact that Joss is working in pay-per-installment media like movies and comic books makes me worry that the world's most popular medium, TV, is going to be more impoverished than ever.

She speaks nothing but truth. Network TV, with few exceptions, is a veritable wasteland. We so need Joss back on the box. No matter how earnestly handled or well-crafted they are, all the Lost's and Veronica Mars's in the world (much less any reality dreck) can't hold a single, sputtering candle to the shining brilliance of Buffy, Angel or Firefly at the top of their games.
I don't think you'd find a single Buffy/Angel/Firefly fan who wouldn't do the same. Doesn't mean that I need to take a bash at Lost though. :)

Added: I guess at this point I've gotten used to a Jossless TV schedule. It's a very sad thing, and I'd do anything to get him back. But I think it's becoming unfair to compare shows which come on to his, all it's doing is dissapointing me.

Personally however a monthly comic and upcoming movie excites me to no end.

[ edited by rabid on 2004-12-15 09:22 ]
That's true Rabid, hope you weren't thinking I was bashing Lost - again, totally enjoying the show but everything Joss Whedon has done has just been so far above anything else I've ever seen on TV that nothing would compete with it. I think that's what this author was trying to say, and yes they took a cheap shot at one of the seasons top shows to prove their point but I get where they are coming from.
I don't know, I think Lost has been really formulaic so far. Not enjoying it, just watching it and waiting for it to get better.
Oh lawd, I loved that article. Pretty much sums it up.

"In the 21st century, audiences want to see "real" people dealing with "real" issues you know, like being stranded in a multimillion-dollar mansion with a bunch of craven anorexics trying to win the hand of a mousse-headed twit."

My favorite line of the week so far!

Well okay, I'd be a little less harsh on Lost. I enjoy it, especially now that we're finally getting somewhere, and are not just sitting on the beach, dealing with our issues. Apart from the brilliant moments I agree the plots aren't shaking me to my foundations but it's still better than most TV out there. I just wish there were some more characters that really sucked me in. As it stands there are about 2 I actually like, 2 I enjoy and...well, then there is the rest.

But it's pure literature compared to the reality TV wave that still hasn't quite reached it's over-the-hill point. And no, you can't pick on that insipid dreck enough. I could devote a site to ripping it to shreds! And what bugs me most is that there is nothing 'real' about it! Even apart from the ludicrous settings and circumstances. Most of the stuff is set up and thought out by the producers anyway! And what's left is edited until it fits exactly what they want to show. And any sliver or genuine human behaviour went out years ago. Everyone on there just wants to be on TV and hopes to be 'discovered'. Ugh. Greedy, camera-horny, fame-seeking exhibitionists....'Real people' my foot.

Pant. Okay. Done now.
Everything can change if Eliza and Joss and a network work something out sometime next year, gotta have Faith. I'll be preying :D

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-12-15 10:15 ]

Perosonally for me, I'd glad
Stargate SG-1

Are still going on, if I lost them, then it would be really bad.

But I hope Joss has a good break, and it's not too long until he returns to tv, his writing, his characters, his vision is addictive, it's not easy moving on, the dvds don't help that matter:D

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-12-15 10:17 ]

[ edited by SeanValen on 2004-12-15 10:19 ]
I just wish there were some more characters that really sucked me in.

Actually this is why I've avoided Lost for now -- JJ Abrams is good at making the soapy, involving plots, but his characters never get real depths. My real-life Buffy-verse friend and I were discussing this recently, and he likes the guy's stuff more than I do, but he agreed with me when I complained that the characters are given great things to do and emote, but they never quite seem human all the way through. To bring it back to Buffy, even the characters I don't like assumed a reality and depth of humanity that rivals anything I've seen on TV.

For ex: I'm not a huge fan of the character of Buffy. There are lots of characters I love more: Xander, Spike, Giles, Oz, Cordy in the early years, Tara, Faith, etc. My relationship with Buffy is a lot more problematic than pure love, but there are about a dozen moments when I identify so strongly with her that I feel tears welling up in my eyes. And it's not just moments that are blatantly sad, it's moments when her humanity is real to me.
When 24 and Alias begin again, I'll have three shows to watch regularly, rather than just Lost. I enjoy the fact that there are some Whedonesquers who like to discuss Lost on Flickr on a regular basis, but I'd much prefer to be talking about new episodes from the Jossverse -- any part of the Jossverse. Joss TV is superior to Abrams TV any day, although Abrams TV will suffice at the moment. And reality TV? Well, I must agree wholeheartedly with the author of this article and with all the comments above. And, yes, the line EdDantes quotes is a choice one.

[ edited by palehorse on 2004-12-15 13:32 ]

[ edited by palehorse on 2004-12-15 13:33 ]
No choice but to avoid Lost for now, being over here in the UK means i either download or wait for it to be picked up next year. Seeing as how i hate the concept of downloading my tv shows (plus, why watch tv on this thing when i paid for a widescreen tv downstairs!) i guess i'll just have to wait and hope that Sky One gives me the chance to make up my own mind about the show.

On that note has anyone heard anything of Sky One, or any other UK channel for that matter, picking up the rights for Lost yet?

As much as i miss Joss' shows at the moment, and would kill (probably literally, hehe) for a new slayerverse show to be commissioned, things aren't that terrible tv wise for me right now.

Don't know if it had anything to do with the fact that i have a lot less time to actually watch the box these days but i'm definately of the opinion that quality matters more than quantity. I've got Stargate SG-1, the excellent Atlantis spinoff and Alias, not to mention the Farscape mini series to look forward to. There is Most Haunted on Living TV, the closest i get to watching anything remotely "reality tv" based. Plus Buffy and Angel on DVD. I'm not exactly starved for things to watch.

Again though, if Joss wants to get that Watchers Council, Spike or Faith show off the ground, i'll be watching! ;)
Senior Partner it will be on E4 in January.
SP The Farscape mini-series is brilliant. I too am enjoying my weekly dose of Sg-1 and Atlantis (which we're getting earlier than the US here in Canada). And Can't wait for next year of Alias.

I don't think TV is currently bad for me either, I miss the Jossverse terribly, but I rewatch my DVD's regularly, and eagerly await new stuff from Joss.
Battlestar Galactica is my Angel substitute at the moment, I can not praise this show highly enough. I love it.
Is the new Battlestar Galactica better than the last mini-series. I really enjoyed those few new eps, and have been SO excited about finally getting it here.

I refuse to download it, to me it's only fair that we should have to get a series late every once in a while. :)
I think it's the best new sci-fi series of the last few years, heck it may even be the best new series of the last few years.

It totally builds upon the mini-series, throws in some great twists and turns and fleshes out the characters in a such a way that you really care about what happens to them. And I love the darkness of it.
catalyst2 - "Or trying to win the respect of ...... or Tyra Banks
WTF? We obviously haven't got this one here yet! Sounds so bad it might be 'camp'!"

Afraid it's not camp (camp is not typically that bad) and one of the reason you may not have gotten to see it yet is because Tyra is the host and a judge sometimes (I think) of "America's Next Top Model" on UPN - which for UPN is pulling in strong ratings.
I agree with many points made in this article. I could never bring myself to watch reality. I've found that "Lost" offers solid entertainment. But it will never fill me emotionally the same as BtVS, AtS, or Firefly. I suspect I won't be the only person doing the dance of joy when Joss decides to return with another series.
E4 huh? Don't know why but that surprised me, i was almost certain that Sky One would snap it up. Ah well, i can watch it on E4 just as easily. Thanks for the heads up Simon.

Rabid, whilst trying my best to remain unspoiled i have heard a lot of good things about Farscape: Peacekeeper Wars. I'm really pleased that i won't have to wait a lot longer to watch it as well, although it's going to be kinda strange watching Crichton and the Moya crew on Sky One. In my opinion Farscape is the closest thing to a Whedon show you can have without actually having Joss involved. Pure brilliance.

Oh, and we have just gone ahead of the US with new episodes of Stargate here in the UK too.

As for Battlestar Galactica, i don't know if it is because of my dislike of the original show or because i read such terrible reviews for the mini series, but i've just not taken any interest in the show. Maybe have to give it a look after all.
I have to agree w/ what was said. Since the loss of Buffy tv has taken a bitter nose dive. I watch very few shows on tv these days. Nothing will ever capture my heart in the way that Buffy did. Maybe I'm just being bias here because I have so much respect for Joss. And Buffy will always be my favorite show of all time! ;)
That was a very good column. I really miss having any Joss guided show to watch. "Luckely" I have a lot of "gaps" when it comes to Buffy episodes that I can catch up on DVD.
I was VERY happy though when I read this weekend that MI-5 (Spooks in the UK) is returning to A & E. It kind of has an Angel feel to it with more character driven plots, the characters dealing with a lot of inner termoil, struggling to do what is "right" etc, etc.
Anyone here who has seen it chares my opinion of Angel/Spooks(MI-5)???

Not Angel but to me.....a good second...
Senior Partner, I have to second Simon's BSG recommendation, I don't think it's the best new Sci-Fi show of the last few years (I give that award to Firefly) but I do think it's second only to FF. The Peacekeeper Wars is also top notch and I hope it will inspire further tales in their wonderful 'verse. I also give Lost and Veronica Mars my seal of approval and hope someone over here picks up VM (I don't have a tv at all and so do resort to dl'ing anything that captures my attention in an attempt to fill the void left by a Jossless schedule)
I enjoyed this column. IMO there is nothing on TV that comes near the quality of a Jossverse show. The best I can do is watch Desperate Housewives, and I sometimes watch Lost but am not that crazy about it. The last episode of Lost I really liked was the one about Locke (the one David Fury wrote).

I won't watch reality TV.

Life is hard - I can spend more time on the PC but then I am tempted to go after Serenity spoilers! I think my will is being tested!
I also agree with everyone and the column. I can't speak to much for Lost, it has yet to really suck me in... only Joss has that power over me. It takes a lot for me to get attatched to something as passionately as I am to his 3 shows, especially BtVS.

As for reality shows... what else can be said other than absolute, mindless, crap. period.

[ edited by Spikecam21 on 2004-12-15 16:34 ]
I liked/agreed with the column too. This fall, there have been three shows I watch regularly: Lost, Veronica Mars, and Gilmore Girls. And not one of them approaches Buffy/Angel/Firefly, in my opinion. Gilmore Girls is the worst - a sad shadow of the show it used to be. The others are better, but still fall into traps that Joss's shows never (or rarely) did.
I agree with the comments above that Lost's characters lack depth. It's a criticism I had of Alias (another show I liked a lot but don't love) as well. And too often, it seems to succumb to the manipulative, formulaic plot twists (which is what I'm guessing the writer meant by cookie-cutter). I'll keep watching it, but it's a poor substitute. It sometimes makes me sad that it's getting SO many viewers and buzz and all that, when Joss's shows were head-and-shoulders above it, but never became more than a "cult" sensation. I have no faith in the masses....
I like that Joss' shows are "cult" shows. Not that I don't think he deserves the fame and fortune but if he broke into the serious mainstream he would fizzle out. I don't want Joss to just have his "15 minutes of fame". I want him to be respected by his peers and fans alike, the way it is now. I want the fans to go find stuff on Joss and his work (like this site), not just be handed it everytime you look on TV, people would lose their passion.

At the same time I don't get why networks wouldn't jump at the chance to put anything Joss wants on TV, he has a garaunteed audience that would follow him to the end of the universe.

[ edited by Spikecam21 on 2004-12-15 17:07 ]
Yes, he has a guaranteed audience, Spikecam unfortunately, it's just not big enough. I don't follow numbers (so anyone feel free to correct me), but I think Lost has been doing about 16-18 million viewers a night. BtVS, I don't think, ever had more than 4 or 5 million, and often less than that. Angel was even less. And Firefly, obviously, tanked on Fox. Just not the kind of numbers that would keep the shows afloat on a major network. That said, I think good marketing and time slots (both of which Lost has had) and a place on a major network could, potentially, have turned Joss's shows into bigger hits than they were. But there's a big hunk of the population who will never give any genre show a chance, but will dismiss it without ever seeing it (Buffy's title was just an added strike against it). So, from some network suits perspective, Joss will never be "more" than a cult director - one with a dedicated, but too small, following.
I believe that Firefly actually had bigger numbers than Buffy but because it was on Fox, they expected more. It may have helped if they hadn't pre-empted it constantly and showed the pilot episode first.
That's crazy talk blwessels, pure insanity.

Actually the ridiculous way Fox mistreated our show really hit home last week when I lent my friend the dvds and then explained to him what Fox had actually done as he couldn't understand why it'd been cancelled. Still makes me fume.
I know how you feel Paul_Rocks, I still fume about it every time I watch the pilot and see how great it was and then remember Fox's lame excuses as to why they didn't find it acceptable. I believe they thought it lacked action and didn't explain the characters well enough. The only explanation for that is they must be blind and stupid!
I cannot ever see joss type shows ever getting a prime time spot on the major channels,it will always be considered as 'cult'TV and pushed aside for reality or brain dead shows that you can fall asleep to.
The only thing i feel i have to watch at the moment on British TV is Battlestar Galactica the characters have depth and i care about what is happening to them,it's about the best subsitute for a Joss show here at the moment but i hope we will get at least a few of the new shows over here in the near future,so,until then it's back to the DVD's and books,it's the only good thing to come out of this...Ive started reading again.
You guys are really selling me on the Battlestar Galactica. I haven't seen the mini series but I believe NBC will be showing that before the new series starts up. I'm not sure, but if that's the case, I'll have to check it out!

Does anyone know when Stargate and Atlantis start showing new episodes in the US? And for anyone who hasn't seen Farscape, I highly recommend it. And yes, the Peacekeeper Wars was great! I should be getting the DVD for that in January!!
Blwessels, new episodes of Stargate begin again on SciFi on January 21 in the US at 8pm with Atlantis following at 9pm.
blwessels - Stargate Atlantis is going to start in January along with Battlestar Galactica. They'll be on Fridays according to the ads on SciFi.

And I *so* agree with the comments on Firefly. After seeing the DVDs I can't believe how badly the nitwits at Fox mucked up one of the best shows on the telly. Idiots.

As for Lost - I'm hooked. With all the "reality" drek it's the best thing out there!
Thanks guys!! And I just saw this lovely tidbit on TVGuide online about Stargate:

"TV Guide Online has learned exclusively that when SG-1 begins its ninth season, Farscape hunk Ben Browder will join the long-running series as a regular."

Sorry about the way off topic post but I know there are a lot of Farscape fans here and as the subject came up in this thread and I just stumbled on this news I thought I'd share it!
I've interested in getting Farscape and Stargate on Netflix. I've never seen them and I was wondering if you guys could share a little bit about them, where to begin, why its good or not etc. In other words roping a new guy in!! (haha). I know this isn't Whedonverse related but I was curious to know whether Whedonverse fans enjoyed these shows as well? Also, can anyone tell me if I can catch Atlantis in reruns in the US? Thank you.
WheelsofJoy, I became interested in Farscape because of all the praise of Whedonesquers who recommended it. I caught a few episodes on Sci-Fi here and there and thought it looked intriguing. It has a great, detailed story arc, colorful characters and great chemistry between the cast. I highly recommend it! Atlantis is currently showing in repeats on Sci-fi on Friday nights but the new episodes will pick up in January as mentioned above so you'll be pretty far into the season if you start watching now. But you may be able to still get a decent feel for the show and the cliffhanger was great!
How many season were their of Farscape? Are all the DVD's out? Is the Farscape mini series in rerun in the US? What season is Stargate in? Thank you blweessels.
There were four seasons of Farscape, and all of them are out on DVD.

The Farscape mini series will be released on DVD in early 2005.

I've never seen Stargate, but I think they've completed about 8 seasons with season 9 starting in January.
IMHO the pilot of Farscape doesn't set the world on fire. I watched it when it was 1st broadcast and to be honest wasn't a big fan and didn't bother going back for episode 2. However I then decided to give it another go earlier this year and managed to watch all 4 seasons in under 4 weeks. The moral of this story being, if you watch the 1st couple of episodes and aren't impressed, hang in there because (to me at least) there is a vast improvement and I now own s1 and s2 on dvd and will surely buy the others when they're less than 100 each.
Nearly right Lalaa. Stargate SG-1 has been renewed for it's ninth year and Atlantis for it's second. The new episodes beginning in January though are the remaining season eight and season one episodes respectively.
Don't know if you'll see this as I'm catching up after a deadline
I loved MI-5. The characters aren't cut and dried good/bad. Some of it was very very chilling. Especially the episode where the female MI-5 agent is killed in the kitchen in a very nasty way. That still creeps me out...

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