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January 19 2005

(SPOILER) Herc's Seen Tonight's (and tomorrow's) "Point Pleasant". He describes it as bland.

I was kindof looking forward to this, but now that I've read more reviews and pieces about the show, I'm not so sure.

For other British peoples the show premieres next Wednesday at 9pm on E4.

I am hoping that this will evolve into a show worthy of a Joss Whedon writer. This could so easily fill the now empty void of buffy/angel. It's still not the same or as good, but I could sure as hell try to make it that way.
Those reviews really aren't encouraging. I was also looking forward to it and will definately still give it a go but no longer with high expectations.
I'm going to be watching this next week when it airs here in the UK but i smell the nasty odour of early cancellation whenever i read articles about the series. It just screams low ratings to me, especially when you consider what network it is airing on in the States.

Hope i'm wrong with this but i get the feeling that this is going to be this seasons Wonderfalls.
Frankly, the ads don't look that appealing to me, so I'm not surprised by the lackluster reviews. God and Satan don't really interest me.

Having said that, I would not have gotten hooked on Buffy if I had seen Season 1 first!
The reviews seem to be all about what it isn’t—it isn’t Buffy or it isn’t the OC, which isn’t quite fair (although saying it isn’t the OC is actually a recommendation in my book). I expect setting up the premise and getting some of the exposition out of the way in the first two episodes won’t be the most riveting TV, but I’m hoping that the “bland” and “soapy” elements are there to not scare viewers away at first. I intend to give it a chance and judge for myself, assuming it lasts longer than four episodes.
Well ta to Herc for summing up the reviews from all the papers. Saves posting them on the front page here.

I think we'll use this thread if people want to comment on tonight's episode. In weeks to come (assuming the show doesn't get cancelled) we'll all head over to Flickr to discuss the episodes.

Oh and btw if you want to watch the first eight minutes of the show then go here.
It doesn't really look too appealing to me either but neither did Firefly when I first saw the promos for it and I absolutely fell in love with that. So I'll give it a go, probably watch at least the first five or six episodes even if I'm not liking it too much just because it's Marti's show.

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-01-19 21:54 ]
It's not like I don't have enough to watch on TV already, but I know I'll end up watching this until they cancel it. For one thing, many of the people involved can live off of the years of goodwill they've stored up with me. Likewise, I have a lot of faith that even if it's not the greatest now, it won't suck forever.

I guess my expectations weren't all that high to begin with, anyway...this show definitely didn't get the amount ten-month-in-advance-internet-hype that most hits in the "genre" genre get. So I figured critical response would be half-and-half...
I'm probably not going to watch it because A)I hate Marti with a passion (Oh God, she dosen't comment here does she?!) and B) From (the very little) I've heard of it, it kinda sounds like The O.C.: East Coast.
From (the very little) I've heard of it, it kinda sounds like The O.C.: East Coast.

I thought it sounded a bit more like if The O.C. and Carnivale had a baby that ended up being not quite as good as her parents.

Ooh, am I supposed to not like The O.C.? Luckily, I never got the memo.
I always wonder why people dislike Marti so strongly. Is it because people don't like season 6?? Since I loved season 6, and Marti gave me many happy near nekkid Spike moments, I can't really complain about the gal!
Gotta say, not sharing the O.C. love at all! I've barely managed to sit through three episodes with my girlfriend and i've needed alcohol just to manage that. Just cannot see what is so popular about that show at all!

As for Marti, firstly i think she is a very talented lady but is it just me that thinks she is incredibly attractive too? C'mon, i can't be the only guy here who thinks so! ;)
Yep, Marti's hot stuff.
Yeah, I don't get why people dislike Marti so much either! She always comes across as nice and sweet in all the behind the scenes stuff and interviews that I've seen. And yeah, she likes to see Spike with his shirt off just like the rest of us gals so she can't be too bad!
Count me out of that group of gals, please!
I'm going to chime in with the Marti love: for me, her BtVS episodes are second only to Joss's. And, yep, I think she is a sparkly and vivacious woman, behind whose eyes lurks just a lovely little hint of naughtiness. And what a voice. S6 ain't my favorite, but it's damn good, so if we're crediting Marti with responsibility for that year, she only rises in my esteem.
It's all very well you gals being happy about all the "shirtless Spike" scenes but you can guarantee that if the Marti appreciating guys here mentioned the fact we wouldn't have minded seeing a "shirtless Marti" scene or two it would be frowned upon!

Double standards are so unfair, don't you agree fellas? ;)
So...did anybody watch? I was otherwise occupied and didn't catch it.
Guys posting here have made many a comment like that and I don't recall any of us gals frowning upon it. Many comments about Buffy, Faith, Willow, Anya, etc or the actresses themselves. Heck EdDantes and Rogue Slayer, who are married, both make rather suggestive comments about ED and JM very frequently and everyone gets a good chuckle out of it(hope you guys don't mind me using you as an example!). Don't know where you're coming from here with your "double standards are so unfair" comment. Especially where there is no basis for it, that I can see on this board.

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-01-20 06:26 ]
It needed a joke or 2.
I'm afraid I did watch it. B-O-R-I-N-G. Maybe it will get better. It should. They have a decent pool of writers. I'm not expecting the world here but couldn't they have gotten a better lead actor ?? She seemed...vacant. And not because her daddy is Satan and her mom is an unknown human. The guy that plays Jesse was OK and Richard Burgi as the Doctor/Dad was good as always but was there anyone that you could give two cents for among the characters ?
I saw it. Didn't like it. It all seemed so....formulaic and heavy-handed. Rats. I really wanted to like it. I'll give it another try because it's Marti and the premise has potential, but - darn.
Very dull...especially the dialogue. I think the reviews had me bracing myself for worse, though, so the show kind of lucked out in that sense.

Seriously, though...the dialogue.
I watched it tonight and I'll be honest I was kinda bored. And I am not one to easily criticize anything. By the end of the show instead of paying attention to the TV I was on my computer.

I think my biggest problem was that I couldn't tell the characters apart, but that could partly be because I wasn't paying enough attention.

Everyone was very pretty though, that is for sure. In the previews for tomorrows episode there was the prettiest priest I have ever seen! If there was a priest like that around here I would go to church too!

I was really excited to watch this too. I LOVE pretty much anything with the whole 'religious/good/evil' thing going on. But it seemed like it had less to do with good and evil and more to do with who is going to hook up with who, of which I have little to no interest in.

Unfortunately the acting didn’t help anything either. There were times when I was like ‘wow that is just bad’ mostly from the younger cast members.

Oh, and one final note, the scene with the bees at the end was a really, really bad special effect. I mean really bad.

But you know, it was only the first episode. There is a lot of potential there; it just has to be tapped into.

[ edited by Inanis on 2005-01-20 07:07 ]
Oh, and that was so not New Jersey. The real shore is much more gaudy and run-down, but in a good way...quaint and creepy. Could've fit well with the mood.
Have to say I thought it was boring too. I had taped it and I just watched it and I had to fight the urge to fast forward through some of it. I also thought the bee scene looked really bad and I also found myself starting to daydream

And did anyone else think the lead girl bore a strong resemblance to a younger Buffy from the first couple of seasons? Not the whole show but that scene where she first appears in the night gown after she wakes up, from a distance looked like Buffy.

I'll watch tomorrow's episode but if I don't see any improvement I don't know if I'll watch more. I had initially said I'd give it five episodes to give it a chance but it seemed to teeny bopper for me and it seemed more like a horror movie from the 70's acting wise.

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-01-20 07:39 ]
Double standards are so unfair, don't you agree fellas? ;)

Double standard? If I were a guy, I'd want to see hot, oily, nekkid women ALL the time, so...not really complaining if guys make comments here.

And as for Point Pleasant...there's about 20 minutes left and I'm sewing a stuffed animal, if that tells you anything...A big blah...
"Heck EdDantes and Rogue Slayer, who are married, both make rather suggestive comments about ED and JM very frequently and everyone gets a good chuckle out of it(hope you guys don't mind me using you as an example!"

Oww, you USED us....I feel so....used. How could you use us so. My innocence....gone. Ahem. Sorry, hehe anyway we are indeed a good example of this and deserve to be used. Use away. Use us up. Let's use.

(Okay no more sugar for me)

Anyway on Point I'm afraid it's kind of what I was expecting. Little bit on the dull side. The whole premise so far seems very conventional in the 'god/devil' department. Also, Herc and others were right; very much humorless, which surprised me considering it's Marti. This takes itself veeerry seriously and I don't think that's a good idea. Another thing I didn't expect was that there were a LOT of chliches in here, both visually and in the dialogue.

And I agree the cast is less than impressive. (Except for Dina Meyer! Arf! Arf! Ahem...) I had trouble telling the girls apart. All very much standard Dawson's Creek/OC type casting. (Usually dubbed 'WB casting' but I still say that doesn't apply to Buffy. Never could've confused ANY character on that show with another)

"I had initially said I'd give it five episodes to give it a chance but it seemed to teeny bopper for me and it seemed more like a horror movie from the 70's acting wise."

My sentiments as well....I'm in the camp of the Marti-luvin'. Great gal, great voice, and some very great Buffy-notches on her belt. But I don't see Marti's touch anywhere on this. It's early and who knows how it could grow, but I'm not sure it will hold my attention long enough for me to see.
I'm already not planning on tuning in tomorrow. It's too bad. The Omen is so brilliant, but... I guess The OCcentricism is way overplayed and underwhelming now that it's been done way too often, and better.

Poop. I should've realized Marti Noxon's written the only hate-able episodes of Buffy.
I saw it and I agree it was not very great. It was kind of clunky and awkward and I found myself getting bored. BUT, the previews for tomorrow look more exciting, and the interaction between Christina and Grant Show's character looks like it might be really interesting. I'm still giving it a chance. I'm kind of intrigued by Elisabeth Harnois. I can't stop looking at her when she's on screen. Apparently, she's going to do more crying on tomorrow's show and I want to see how good she cries. That's one of the things I pay attention to with acting; how good a crier an actor is. What I saw from the preview looked emotionally realistic.

I still think this show has promise. Marti said herself that after the third episode the show will develop a more Twin Peaksy feel. I'm going to wait and see. Really, if I were as picky as most of you, I probably wouldnt have given Buffy a chance in it's first season. Or maybe I have more patience. But I still think this show could get interesting. I mean, it's only one episode. I don't give up that quickly.
ESG - I don't think it's that we are picky - I was just bored to death! I had a hard time paying attention to it through out the whole show. Now, I never felt that way about Buffy season one. And Firefly was shown out of order and my first viewing of the Train Job didn't exactly impress me but I saw something in it that made me want to give it another try. I just can't say I got that with this show. I will watch the second half, and after your comment about what Marti said, I may even watch the third episode even if I'm not impressed with the second but I don't think it's fair to say that those of us who weren't impressed are picky. I just really expected it to be a lot better than this because it is Marti Noxon.
It's like a glossier (as in better-shot) version of the soap Passions. At least Passions had (still has? Haven't seen it in years) a goofy sense of...well I wouldn't exactly call it humor, but the writers sure didn't take all the plotlines as seriously as they could've. I don't want to laugh at Point Pleasant though, I wanna laugh with it, if it's planning on having any funnies whatsoever. I don't mind when a show has little to no humor. I can sit through very dark, depressing films if their plots and characters are compelling enough, same goes for TV.

I'll tune in tomorrow. That was incredibly dull, though.

I don't unabashedly love Marti Noxon's writing, I think she's about even as far as good vs. mediocre eps go. She definitely started out as one of the strongest BtVS writers. Her Season 2 material was awesome (What's My Line, Surprise, BB&B, I Only Have Eyes For You), with arguably one mediocre-to-disappointing ep in the batch (not a fan of Bad Eggs). She wrote a couple of my favorite Season 3 episodes (The Wish, Consequences) and I still maintain that if Dead Man's Party had been aired as a two hour block with Anne, it would've made for a better premiere and I would've felt a lot more confident about Season 3 right off the bat...I could kinda take or leave Beauty And The Beasts, though there're bits of that episode that I really like. I'm not sure what went wrong in Season 4. Living Conditions was a bust for me, I think Doomed is the worst episode of Season 4 (though she shares that blame with one or two other writers including David Fury from what I remember) and Wild At Heart wasn't as good as it should've been for Oz's last episode as a regular (though she definitely redeems herself there by giving us New Moon Rising, which I thought was excellent). I think Buffy vs. Dracula is the worst season premiere of any Whedon series, but Noxon does all right in Season 5 'cause I liked Into The Woods and Forever, which had the difficult job of following The Body and succeeded pretty well I thought. Really not a fan of Wrecked, I like Villains a hell of a lot more than the two Dark Willow episodes that followed it, and I enjoyed Season 6 and the risks it took overall, so she's good there too. I'm not sure who was responsible for the mess that was most of Season 7, but I felt that "Bring on the Night" was where it started to go downhill. If I missed a few episode mentions (I know she wrote one of the characters' scenes for Conversations With Dead People), it's because she was a co-writer or uncredited and can't find record of them.

So yeah, that's why I wasn't expecting anything amazing from Point Pleasant with her at the helm. She's capable of being a really good writer, but she's not all-around excellent.
double-post, nothing to see here

[ edited by Kris on 2005-01-20 08:52 ]
I'm writing this blind, without reading other people's opinion, so I'm untainted.

Was it a great aritistic acheivment? No.

Did its wit tickle and delight with its trenchant observance of human foibles and its genres conventions? No.

Did the acting astonish me with its closely observed recreation of human behaviour? No.

Did I have a lot of fun? Hell, Yeah

Was it pure Marti Noxon? You bet. The thing I like about Marti's writing is the way powerful emotions are just barely under the surface and forever threatening to break through. This gives the scenes a wonderful intensity that lends itself to incredible sexiness.

The actors didn't impress me much (though I'm a sucker for a redhead in pigtails), but David Boreanaz didn't do much for me the first time I saw him either. So maybe these people will grow into their roles.

I've never been one for "guilty pleasures", but I think I understand the appeal more, now. Looking forward to more episodes.
Just wanted to add that I now really enjoy The Train Job when I see it, it makes a huge difference knowing who the characters are and feeling like you know them. And I would've felt that way if I had seen the pilot first.

And just one more comment about PP. I honestly don't see how the show will last with all the dismal and lackluster reviews and I haven't read one post here that someone stated they really liked it. I really wanted to like it and normally would over look a lot just because of that but it just left me numb and not really caring about any of the characters. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and part 2 will be a lot better but right now, I'm just not feeling it.

And Kris, wow, did you remember all those Marti Noxon episodes off the top of your head? Agreed with some of your views but also disagreed with a few. Thought Dracula was just a hoot and wasn't meant to be taken seriously, agree with you on Bad Eggs not being a particularly great episode but having just re-watched season 7, uninterrupted on DVD, I really loved it and thought it was great.
Oh sure Son of Shadow - just as I'm typing that I haven't read one person here liking it, you go and post that you did as I'm still typing. Glad to hear someone liked it and maybe there is an audience for it.
I don't think I am excessively picky, but usually the first impressions say a lot to me. For instance, I didn't like Tru Calling at all but I loved Lost on the first viewing.

I was giving more of a first impression type thing. I will admit though, that I don't have a lot of patience when it comes to TV. I pretty much either like it or I don't. If I have to try to like it, it’s not worth the time.
No time to watch, just ff through it. Love the look of it. And was that James Morrison, from Space Above and Beyond? If he's going to be in every episode I'm going to have to watch it. Cause, yeah, shallow, but he's fabulous in lots of ways.
Thing is, while it's true some shows needed time to grow, and I can't judge on a first ep alone, that first ep should still have SOMETHING to tickle me. Even if the characters are still unknown to me, then at least the dialogue should grab me, or entertain me, or there should be some good moments that surprise me. I just had none of that here. It wasn't bad so much as just mediocre. No surprises, no gripping moments. Not a single thing that I didn't feel I hadn't already seen in numerous other places.

And I still don't see Marti in this, not what I liked about her work. There's no edge, no wit, no tension. There was a lot of 'tell and don't show' which is not really what it's supposed to be. I don't know....I may give it another chance or two but....I doubt this will be my thing.

(PS: And sure enough: already with the frantic, latin-spouting catholic types. Why can american tv/movies do nothing but club me to death with cliched catholic imagery and symbolism every single time a topic like this is at hand?? Come up with something new, please!)
Catholic imagery and symbolism is very rich, powerful and recognisable. I quite like the theater of catholicism (from an atheist point of view) and don't mind being hit over the head with it. I prefer it over other cliched imagery - like voodoo, or um, well, nothing else springs to mind right now. I can't get enough of it. But then I would, wouldn't I, with my Ireland fixation.
It was disappointing, but with a writing staff like that, it could improve.

The problem is the characters don't grab me. They're all so bland and generic. They are white bread, interchangeable plastic Barbies and Kens. If you don't care about the characters right away, the series is lost (as opposed to "Lost.")

I used to go to the beach at Point Pleasant (I grew up around there as a teenager) and NOBODY looked like that there... Try mostly lumpy, hairy and obese. Also, the town is actually prettier in real life than it appears on screen.
Ok here's the litmus test was it better than 'The Mountain'?:)
How many episodes of a TV show do you have to watch before you give it up as a lost cause ?
For myself an interesting premise and no competition will give a TV series two shots, but if it still doesnt ignite thats it.
From the other angle, how many episodes should the network air before they give up on a show ?
A full season, if it's not laughably bad in which case there would be no reason to air it at all, would there ?
EdDantes said:

There was a lot of 'tell and don't show'

Yep, it was way too full of exposition. Especially guilty of this was one of the scenes where Christina and Spunky Teenage Daughter (Judy? Can't remember all the names yet) are in daughter's room talking. Spunky Teenage Daughter explains about her dead sister, explains about why her mom is the way she is (even though we haven't even seen her mom act strangely or show that she's in a suspended state of bereavement, so nice going there writers, spoonfeeding the audience to an insulting degree to ease them into the situation). Many shows' pilots fall into this trap. Some background info is fine, but too much just kills the flow of the episode and may be revealing more than necessary this early on. We didn't need to know that Jesse's girlfriend's mom sleeps around a lot, or that she may have feelings for STD's dad, or that he used to lust after her even though she never looked his way back in highschool. One of these details may've been beneficial to the audience, but that many all at once simply gives us a really good idea of a conflict that'll be coming up some time in the series, most likely soon, and so the show has basically spoiled itself.

jpr asked:

How many episodes of a TV show do you have to watch before you give it up as a lost cause ?

The basic premise of the show (if I've heard about it beforehand) and the premiere should have something that seems potentially intriguing to me. Or I really like one or more of the actors, or I know of the writer(s) and have liked their work in the past. That'll get me in the door. I'll usually stick around for a second episode if I've bothered to watch the first (especially helping Point Pleasant in this respect is the next-day airing). If the show totally sucked though with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, goodbye. "Nicely filmed" doesn't count. I think PP looks beautiful in some scenes, but it's not enough. Speaking of visuals, niether is the eye candy. A number of these people are very attractive, but most of them are of the bland variety, IMO. They almost all look like they're cut from the same mold. Though kudos to the casting director for hiring a skinny guy and showing him with his shirt off a lot, perhaps intending for him to be seen as attractive even if he is the goofy sidekick who normally can't get the girl. PP's not revolutionary in this sense, but it's always nice to see variety, even if it isn't nearly to the degree you see in real life (same deal with Hurley on Lost). If a show's done some things right in the first couple episodes and I feel like I should stick around to see what happens, if I maybe even care about a few of the characters but I'm still wavering, I'll stick with it for the next three to six episodes depending.

It's also hugely dependant on how many other shows I'm watching. There's nothing on for me Thursday nights at the moment (I lost track of habit-TV Joey and didn't end up following the second season of The O.C.--I hear it's nowhere near as good as the first anyway--so if PP somehow keeps me around it'll be no big deal. Having the Canadian equivalent of TiVo and also knowing that the series'll show up on DVD some day if it succeeds also effects my decision on whether to watch it live or not).

how many episodes should the network air before they give up on a show ?

Yikes, that'd be getting into the business side of things. I'm not an exec, so I'm probably not considering all of the aspects they need to...but I'd say at least six is fair. Canceling a series that they already liked the pilot enough to order the show for, after only two episodes on the air? Is extremely stupid. You can't build a viewership on that, you don't know if it'll catch on down the road...Six doesn't seem like such a huge monetary and time slot risk.

However, if a network does geenlight a show beyond the first six episodes, and if the show airs as many as half its season's worth, and then the network decides they have to cancel it? Do the fans of the show a favor and at least order the rest of the run. Even if you don't intend on airing all of it, have it so that those episodes exist and can be available on DVD and give the writers notice if possible so they can fashion an ending. It's really not PR-friendly of a network to piss off and alienate its viewers.
Don't know where you're coming from here with your "double standards are so unfair" comment. Especially where there is no basis for it, that I can see on this board.

To be honest, Firefly Flanatic, i wasn't getting at anything other than having a little chuckle about double standards in life in general, not specifically here at Whedonesque. You can't dispute that it is far more acceptable for a guy to go topless on a tv series than it is for a girl to do the same thing. You girls got a large dose of JM eye candy during season six but there was never any chance of us guys getting the same treat when it came to Sarah, Alyson, Emma or Amber.

Basically it wasn't referring to double standards here on the board, just in life overall, okay?
Can't add anything new to the criticism of the episode. Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. I agree that the young actors were cookie-cutter figures hired for their eye-candy appeal and not for their acting abilities. With all the close-ups on the lead, one would expect to see some variance in expression, some "thought" behind the eyes. Wasn't there. Vacant. The dialogue was cliched. And I agree that way too much time was spent on exposition (and without anyone with the skills of ASH to deliver it with interest). The sex scenes left me cold because I had no emotional investment in the characters, and we saw more skin on the beach. I will likely give the show another try, because it is Noxon's, and she does have a pretty good track record, but, had it been someone else's show, this episode would have been the first and last I would have watched.
I SO wanted to like this :(
I will watch a few more episodes but, things will have to change drastically for me to have any interest in this show. I'm actually wondering how this made it on air. The acting overall was terrible (and I can usually take alot). The writing wasn't great. The subject matter is on the weird side for the general public. What was it about this show that got it approved by the execs? Probably the hot young cast and the promise of much sex. Blah.
Well Gothic, your post certainly sounded like it was aimed at this group and not the world in general - go back and read it and tell me where I misunderstood. But in this society it isn't acceptable for women to walk around with their shirts off - some women had tried that and were arrested for it. So yeah, definitely a double standard out there in the world, especially the countries where a woman can be put to death for showing an ankle.

And if we're going to compare and say what's fair, how 'bout the movies. Lots of female full frontal nudity but barely any scenes like that for the men.
Firefly Flanatic, the first paragraph of my post above was obviously in reference to the topic of the thread and the comments that came before it. The last line (including the double standards comment you seemed to object to) was the line i was referring to as being meant about the world in general rather than this board in particular. In fact if you go back and take another look yourself you will notice the winky smiley i included at the end which i would hope shows you how not serious i was being with the comment in the first place.

All meant in good fun and not directed towards you or anyone else here specifically i promise but i think that is where you misunderstood.
They just seemed to go together to me because they were in the same post and there was nothing to distinguish the two being different but I can see where you are coming from and thanks for the explanation.

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