This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"I wasn't looking at your neck!"
11944 members | you are not logged in | 03 September 2014




Tweet







January 26 2005

The latest news on those Angel TV movies. TV Guide's Michael Ausiello asks the WB president for an update on what's going on. When asked about doing a "Marsters-centric telepic", the reply is "we may give some thought to the Spike movie".

But I'll believe it when I see it.

"I've never thought of that"... Please, give me a break here. Are that guy just acting or is he really that stupid. They could make a movie starring Amy (Elizabeth Anne Allen) as the sole old Jossverse character for god's sake and still bring in decent numbers. Oh well, it's good atleast that they atleast are beginning to think a bit towards the edges of the box. The more Jossverse, the better.
They knew about Spike's popularity when they asked for him to be in Angel season 5. Unless there's been a complete mind wipe at The WB since Levin left, it sounds like a face saving answer.
Maybe thats why theres been no development on the tv movies? They think we would only watch it if it had Buffy or Angel in it?
Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Yep. Still bitter.

eddy - giving them the benefit of the doubt, you are a better person than me. I don't believe a single word that comes out of the WB hellmouths.
I wouldn't believe it. So far, everything they've said has been proven false. They knew very well that Spike was one of the most popular 'verse characters. BTW, the WB is now firmly locked in last place with UPN holding a sizeable lead in 5th place. And I don't see those numbers changing much for the rest of this season.
What the hell? Bwahahaha! "Never thought of that." Right. Are they still leading us on like this? Bastards.
I forget, is David Janollari the guy that replaced Levin? If so, maybe he's just not in tune with many of The WB's programs (or its canceled ones at least). That's no excuse, I'm just saying. I do remember whoever replaced Levin last year being really understanding when talking about Angel and its cancelation (even if it was all just PR lies), even sounding enthusiastic about the possibility of TV movies.

Of all the main Angel characters left alive at the end of Season 5 ('cause "Gunn? Definitely died"...I still wonder if Joss was kidding), Spike is the one I'd least like to see headlining a spin-off. I realize he'd really be the only choice if they couldn't get David Boreanaz to reprise Angel, but I'd much rather see Illyria or Angel (ideally a combination of all of them).

Technically I guess I'd like to see Lorne less than Spike since he was effectively written out at the end of Season 5 anyway, and it felt right, but yeah. Still Spike. Of course I'd still watch a Spike movie, I still like James Marsters, he's just the main character I'm least-interested in. I'd give any Whedon series a chance, I'd watch an Andrew or even Eve movie, god help me. One about brand new Potentials even.....okay that's maybe going a bit far. And Joss reads and posts here. Wouldn't wanna encourage anything like that.

[ edited by Kris on 2005-01-26 12:30 ]
Actually, I wouldn't mind a "potential" movie at all, even though my favorite potential Amanda got killed in Chosen. I would even watch a movie starring Rona or Parker as leads, even though they would completely bug me throughout.
The idea that a new exec might not be familiar with the popularity of one of the characters on a canceled show is not all that hard to swallow. Perhaps a few postcards might be in order ? I sure wouldn't mind seeing JM/NB/ED/Tom L etc in a couple of movies spun off BTVS/AtS.
Haha, Djungleurban. Desperate much? I always liked Vi, and actually, Parker's kind of hot. A big poophead, as Willow put it, but I sort of...eh, ok, I won't go there.

I would go with ANYTHING from the Buffyverse they could come up with. I've always thought there was so much story potential in the minor characters, just waiting to be tapped into:

Amy the ex-rat. After her Willow-turning-into-Warren spell in "The Killer in Me", she could have been approached by D'Hoffryn for a vengeance gig. I totally see that happening. So, Amy the Vengeance Demon. It could be a story that follows her vengeance assignments, focusing on Amy's path to redemption.

Or how about a TV movie set in Pylea. It could be "Lorne: The Early Years" or something. That would rock.

I also wanted to see more of the Big Gulp demon from "That Old Gang of Mine". Don't laugh. He was so cool! I want to know his story.

And there are so many other stories I could think of, if I wasn't awake at 3 in the morning and about ready to pass out.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-26 13:11 ]
The way i see it, given the situation as we know it to be, it really doesn't matter if he is lying about this or if he honestly was not aware that Spike was popular enough to front his own show or telemovie up to this point.

The truth is that now he has gone on record as saying that he is aware of the fact and that it will be considered. Until this point the WB had been holding on to the "It's up to Boreanaz" party line so that they could avoid responsibility for nothing happening. Now that they know that we know that they know they have other options (that made sense, right?) it won't be so easy for them to pass the buck.

And truthfully would they really want to now? This year has been absolutely abysmal for them ratings wise and i haven't exactly been reading of masses of new shows in the pipeline to improve things for next year. Maybe now is the time that they really would consider getting a Spike series on the air, simply because they need something to get them back in the running again. The media attention that they would receive if they were to revive the slayerverse would be substantial and they would be looking at a solid core audience again. Plus the fact that we may be more likely to give their other series a chance again if they played fair by us this time.

In my opinion this is worth pushing. The WB are now aware that a Spike show would be welcomed, now we just need to let them know how much.

And before we get the usual "Joss isn't interested in doing television right now" comments, this may or may not be true, although i would imagine his mind could be changed if given the right promises, however i do think it is also beside the point. Joss wouldn't need to be onboard with this on a day to day basis as long as he supervised the series overall. In fact the way things are going Marti Noxon may well be free to be the series showrunner and we all know how much she loves working with James. :)

This isn't the same thing as reading that a Spike series has been commissioned but it at least shows that the media is still very much aware of the slayerverse. How many other shows cancelled in the last few years still get mentioned now?
I want an AprilBot series! She was hot!

And as WB excuses go I think the next time someone asks why they don't do a Jossverse show they'll say "We'd love to but the thing is, we've lost his phone number. I had it written down but I think I sent my pants to the cleaners and it must have been in the pocket and..."
What?! Me?! Desperate?! I... that... how... lunasy... OK, maybe little a bit then. :) I'm ready to take anything they'll throw my way. I've actually had ideas about having Amy join some sort of Faith show and also having Fred (Fred isn't dead, she's just misplaced) being snatched up from an earlier point in the time line and brought forward to current time. and yeah electricspacegirl, I love your ideas, I would definately watch all those things (even though I want my Amy sane and not evil).
I don't believe the WB hasn't considered a Spike TV movie, and, since we know that nothing reps of the WB say in public can be trusted, I don't believe his going on record to consider a Spike-centric movie means anything, either.

And after Joss wins a "best screenplay" Oscar next year for Serenity, would he come back to TV?
Oh, wait. I forgot about the best spinoff idea! (In my mind, anyway) Illyria! Oh my god, the WB would strike gold with that one. Illyria and Spike, set in a post-apocalyptic Los Angeles (or anywhere, really), working together to fight the forces of darkness. It would be even darker than Angel. But wait, it would do better on cable. Fuck the WB. They never respected Angel, and cable networks like HBO seem to take care of their own, unlike some networks that I will not name but start with W and end in B.

But yeah, Illyria, man. That's the most important character that I want to see...oh, and bring back Wesley!!!! Please?

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-26 16:27 ]
Electricspacegirl, you read my mind! ;)
Kris: Yes, David Janollari was the person that took Jordan Levin's place. And yes, Janollari has said many positive things about making Angel movies since taking over. To be fair, he has not commented on a Spike movie. But the point is, none of those comments have panned out. Several of the Angel cast members have been interviewed since then and, each time, they were asked if the WB had approached them with any movie offers based on the series. And they replied that they haven't heard anything from the WB since the end of the series. I'm waiting for the next James Marsters interview since his appearance on 'The Mountain'. I'm sure this same question will be ask and I'm thinking I already know what his answer will be. IMO, I suspect this is what happened. James' Mountain appearance was a test. If the ratings had gone through the roof, then they would have considered doing more with James. However, since he did nothing for the show's ratings, they tossed the idea. That's the way I see it.
If you are right, Madhatter, then that is just short-sighted of them. I didn't watch the Mountain episode, because I had tried to watch the show before and nearly gagged, and since I'm not a Nielsen person, it didn't matter anyway.

However you can bet your bippy that I'd be smack in front of my telly for anything Whedon. Anything (except maybe the aforementioned Rona series, sorry Djungleurban!). And I know of quite a few folks that feel that way. So if they were trying to do a Marsters Test, it was woefully off the mark.
Ehe..."I've never thought of that"...
Sure, I belive you :-)

But, then, hey Janollari is a "suit", what teh heck does he know? Sometimes the buissness and management types at there companies are very out of touch with creativity and what people are interested in watching, so I would give him a tad of the benefit of a doubt....but just a tad.

Djungelurban......how many Swedes are posting here regularly??
I think it would be very unfair for the WB to evaluate James Marsters popularity on the basis of whether he could 'save' The Mountain. If he had been part of the cast from the very beginning....maybe...but to toss him into the mix long after that show was doomed to failure and expect him to improve the ratings would be pretty unrealistic IMO.
The WB in general has suffered with a lack of support from many veiwers. Most of the shows they have are awful. The ones they tried to put in Angels old time slot failed miserably, but the Mountain had not only content trouble but was going up against the blockbuster Desperate Housewives.
If the suits would give James a REAL chance to shine in a good show...then I think they could more accurately assess his popularity.
And as far as this crap about them never thinking a Spike movie would fly...what have they been doing for nearly a year now...hiding under a rock?
I'll send cards if anyone thinks it will help, but I've been doing it all along...and I'm pretty sure a lot of folks have been doing the same. Please don't tell me they are unaware of what the fans want...I'm afraid it's still all a big 'cover our ass' tactic...and 'gee don't blame us...we thought the fans only wanted to see Angel in these films'. Gag...I've heard enough.
Although the 'true' fans probably would watch any continuation of the Buffyverse they would also be the first to complain when it wouldn't reach the level of writing and acting that we have come to expect from a Whedon show.
A TV series/movie with the potentials I would be forced to watch once out of curiosity but it would have to have some really exceptional writing, for me to ever want to see it again.

Jonas,Djungelurban, there is probably a few Swedes around.
"I've never thought of that,"...'except when it was widely proclaimed that Joss wanted to do 4 telepics, one focusing on Spike....and well there was that bombardment of postcards from rabid Spike fans...but other than that, I've never thought of it...'

Wow, I think these suits really don't think people like us follow the goings on. And, btw, that line of "We may give some thought to the Spike movie" is remniscent of another person saying, guest starring on Angel is "definitely something I might consider..." and we know how that turned out!

I mean, not even, 'we'll give some thought to it' but 'we MAY give some thought to it' which means 'we're not interested, but we think we have some other shows lined up that might re-engage the Angel crowd, so I just need to placate them until then'.

Blech...I hate suit-speak.
Suit-speak = politics, unfortunately. And they have to speak that language to cover their own a***s, which is sad, a bit of honesty is refreshing.

Lol at "I don't believe a single word that comes out of the WB hellmouths." - Miranda. Hellmouths is the perfect word for this bulls***.
Never said I WANTED a Rona show, cause Rona is one of my 3 least favorite characters. I just said that if that would come on, then I would still watch it because it's Jossverse! :)

Jonas, I have no idea. I've just posted here for two days now so... :)
Eh the usual "I've said something but I'm not really saying anything" nonsense from an exec. They may as well just always say 'You never know' about every question like this. Gives us about the same info.

Frankly I'm still not holding my breath on those TV movies. What the WB has been thinking in the past few years is beyond me anyway. It must be harder and harder though to adopt the attitude of 'we know best' when your network is dropping further and further in the ratings. I still laugh my head off (in that bitter way) when I think of the fact that 'The Mountain' is AtS's replacement. I hope they're taking a good hard look at the numbers there...
Maybe they could have a sitcom, and treat Rona kinda like Kenny in South Park, where every week they find more creative ways for her to be killed off. Oh my God, they killed Rona! Ding dong the witch is dead!
I'm not convinced the suits ever actually see our postcards. At best they get a report on how much mail was received for a certain actor or show if the numbers of mail exceeds a certain threshold. If fans could sustain sending in thousands of postcards regarding their favorite actor in a steady stream that might get noticed, otherwise I doubt it.

Somehow, I think the Saving Angel campaign convinced them of David Boreanaz's popularity since he played Angel and it didn't occur to them that we love the whole package - Wesley, Fred/Illyria, Gunn, Spike, etc. So, we successfully raised David's profile in the industry, but I'm not sure we did as much for the rest of the cast.

Why they didn't know there was a desire for movies based on the other characters? Apparently brain farts are contagious and the WB headquarters is ground zero for cranium fartus contamination.
Though I am glad this was posted, this just makes me more depressed. The TV movie idea really was the WB blowing smoke to keep the press off their butts. It's an insult to the fans. What, did they forget that the network once had a loyal cult fan base and that they watched a show that smart people watched?
I wonder if they tossed all those Spike/James post cards in the trash. I don't buy this for a second. He was prepared for the answer to Angel movies (David is busy) but bless Ausellio's heart, he pulled that one out, and what a lame answer.

Yeah, it never occurred to anyone that we watched ATS/BTVS and loved some of the other characters besides the lead? please. I never watched ATS before Spike came on, and I know many like me.
A Spike movie wouldn't be my first choice, but I would watch it if Joss were involved. I'd much rather see movies about Angel/Illyria/Wesley (I refuse to believe he's dead for good!)
I'm thinking there is still one more fish to fry. I want to see what happens when Aly Hannigan guests on Veronica Mars, and whether the show gets a ratings boost (my bet: yes, and big). This may convince TPTB that it is time to do a Willow flic, not a Spike flic. I think Willow is probably a more beloved character than even Spike.

And lord, let Joss finally bring back Tara and you will have a major hit on your hands. Well, one can wish, but I think the first paragraph may be a key here to future Buffyverse films. Though wrong station.... :-)
What bullsh*t. I donít think theyíve given anything ANY thought because they donít want to lose face by having to go back to something they discarded. It might make them look like they were wrong or made a stupid decision when they cancelled Angel to make room for Dark Shadows. No wait, I mean The Mountain. What? They put that out of its misery? Geez, how embarrassing!
I love those characters and I miss them, but I donít want them to be used to try and pull the WB out of the ratings toilet.
Good comments from all. And let me be the first to say that I hope I'm wrong in this matter and that Janollari is being sincere with his statement. I gladly do the dance of joy while ducking fruits and various meats. But I don't think so. I've been following the WB responses towards these proposed movies and there's nothing to connect the dots as of yet. This is more of the same.
I'm thinking there is still one more fish to fry. I want to see what happens when Aly Hannigan guests on Veronica Mars, and whether the show gets a ratings boost (my bet: yes, and big). This may convince TPTB that it is time to do a Willow flic, not a Spike flic. I think Willow is probably a more beloved character than even Spike.

How about a Willow flic IN ADDITION TO a Spike flic? I'm all for everyone's favorite characters to be showcased somehow in future Jossverse projects. Joss himself mentioned Willow, Spike, Giles and Faith telemovies. I don't see any advantage to us as a fandom in butting heads over favorite characters - they're all very beloved. We were quite the force when we were united. I see all these separate factions in the fandom and I'm reminded of the adage: divide and conquer. Except, we're the ones dividing, not conquering.
I have to say, Willow's okay, but I'm all about Spike and I agree with KillinJ. Why should we try to play one against the other? What about a Xander/Spike/Illyria movie? IMO, they could get as many of the cast who would willingly show up.
Hey, I'm okay with all four movies, never fear. I'd be happy for anything carrying the Buffyverse forward. IN fact, I'd even add to the mix and throw in a few more! :-) (I'd love a D'Hoffryn flic!).
What? We've all forgotten "Clem: The Series" so soon? That's what I'm holdin' out for. ;-)
Vampires aren't supposed to age, so if a Spike film is in somebody's opium pipe, it better be soon. Geriatric vampires who put their fangs is glasses of water every morning will be a little out there for me.
All I want to see is Spike and Illyria together. Whether it's a TV Movie or a spinoff I want them both together. I just gotta have Blondie Bear and Blue Bird back on my tv set.
Haha, Gilmoid. Geriatric vampires. Hey, if in 20 years, Joss does a Buffy/Angel reunion show, I think enough fans would fanwank away Angel and Spike's grey hair and wrinkles, just to see it.

But uh...yeah. Maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea...

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-26 22:36 ]
So, is it geriatric vampires that gave rise to the expression "long in the tooth"?
A Spike film would work if what happens is this: In the first fifteen minutes the Sanshu prophecy which was proven to be false actually comes true, and Spike gains his humanity. Then he discovers that only he knows he's lost the vampire in him, and he's got good guys chasing after him trying to stake him, and then some bad guys get a suspicion that he's not stakable anymore and they try to kill him, so he's gotta fend off everybody without any vampire powers. All he's got are his wits and he's at his wits end. And to top it all off he realizes he's approaching middle age. That'd scare anybody.

Actually this whole thing is silly. I say the networks won't touch the Whedonverse so long as we're still in this conservative swing of the pendulum. Maybe when people stop talking about censorship and the country swings towards a more liberal or at least moderate stance, things will change. I don't see that happening any time soon. I'm afraid we're stuck, fellow diehard Whedonverse fans. We're looking out at a drought for the next several years, and I'm plum out of Gatorade.

I long for the early days of radio, when you could trick everybody into thinking aliens had landed, and they'd cut you a movie deal. I'm on the wrong planet.
A little off-topic, but are we absolutely sure vampires aren't supposed to age at all ... or do they just age really slowly, because the Jossverse does contain some rather aged vampires. Not to mention, Angel and Spike aren't like other vampires. Also, with all do respect, JM and DB are a long way away from geriatric.
A little off-topic, but are we absolutely sure vampires aren't supposed to age at all ... or do they just age really slowly, because the Jossverse does contain some rather aged vampires. Not to mention, Angel and Spike aren't like other vampires. Also, with all do respect, JM and DB are a long way away from geriatric.

I think the show has always made references to vamps not aging at all.
I'm not sure why Spike and Angel would defy this 'rule'. Unless they want to pull something ridiculous out of their butts like having a soul makes you age. But I suppose when you're dealing with fictional creatures, you can do whatever you want. But I'd still like them to stay within the realm of 'realism' that they've created in the 'verse. I mean, you *could* all of a sudden decide vampires can fly, but I wouldn't buy it because it's not really within that realism realm Joss created.

But if you ask me, if anything, having a soul makes you gain weight! :D
I've never liked Spike so I would hope any of the other characters were there too if it were to happen. I don't think people who say they watched AtS just for Spike are very respectful. Are you even fans of Joss or just fans of JM?
I think the show has always made references to vamps not aging at all.

Funny, I don't remember any references to vampires not aging at all, but I do remember vampires who looked quite old. I always thought that Angel would one day look like the Master if he got to live that long. Supposedly The Master was so ancient he lost his ability to retain his human appearance. Then there's that one vampire in the submarine episode in ATS season 5.
From 'Faith, Hope and Trick'


Giles: 'Kakistos' is Greek. It means the worst of the worst. (Heads behind the counter) It's also the name of a vampire so old that his hands and feet are cloven.


And there was the Master as well. So I would reckon vampires do age but very very slowly.
Spike acted different on AtS than he did on BtVS so I can understand when some people say they like Spike on one show but not the other. I like Spike but he's not my favorite character. I just don't think Spike could hold his own series unless they got some of the other regulars from Angel (i.e. Wes & Gunn)
I don't think people who say they watched AtS just for Spike are very respectful. Are you even fans of Joss or just fans of JM?

I'm a fan of Joss, DB, JM, AA, AD, AH, ASH, SMG, NB, CC, etc, etc. After Buffy end, when I found out Spike was going to be on ATS I went out and watched all the DVDs and reruns on TNT so that I could be caught up. I fell in love with the show and all of its characters in the process. You're certainly entitled to your opinion about the character, but please refrain from dissing other fans who came to the show late so see more of that character's story.
killinj, not to mention Kakistos (or is it kissing toast?). He was also an aged vampire. He de-evolved differently than The Master though. I do think the there's something to the "vampires actually aging" thing. It's just not been explained enough to keep it from looking like a ret-con if they do end up going that way in some hypothetical 20-year reunion movie. I think any way they would do it would just look half-assed and desperate.

But than again, I trust in Joss. I just trust in Joss to never do something like that.

Neither Angel or Spike have much of a shelf life. Time is running out. I predict that we won't see a movie or show featuring either character, and that if there is another Buffyverse spin-off, it won't be for another 5 or 10 years.

But hey, prove me wrong, Joss! It's not like I would complain about it.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-27 00:17 ]
Some of us who were fans of Spike followed Spike to Angel, where we discovered another aspect of the Jossverse that otherwise had not fully registered on our radars. I can see how some people who did so could remain loyal to the character, as one that they were already comfortable with (even if he did act differently). I don't see how that is showing a lack of respect.

On the other hand, as much as I have enjoyed JM as an actor and Spike as a character, I would also argue that the character would not be one to hold his own without some of the other regulars. Spike is so reactive, so dependent upon someone else to lust after or spar with. He was never drawn as a self-sufficient character (although he may have been evolving toward that end in Angel). I would certainly watch if there were a Spike TV-movie -- as I would watch if there were a TV-movie with any of the other characters -- but my preference would be a re-established ensemble of some of the regulars.
charisma . It was Spike who got me hooked on Buffy and because of getting hooked on Buffy I then got hooked on Angel. Honestly having a favourite character doesn't mean you don't like other characters or that you don't appreciate Joss and the writing team. It's quite possible to like Spike/James and not descend to talking down other characters/actors. Or indeed talking down to people who favour another character . If it's Joss I'll watch it . if James is in anything I'll watch it . But I also actively seek out the projects of other cast members and writers.

These were amazing shows with an incredibly talented cast and great writers .

I'm not overly optimistic of there being a movie but hope springs eternal!.

And infighting doesn't help .
I think an Illyria series would be the best bet with recurring guest roles from various Buffyverse characters. Illyria was a new enough character that newbies could come in without needing to know the whole history (and they could use flash backs of Fred to show where some of her human type charateristics come from). As for DB and JM aging, well, and I hate to say this but done right, it looks natural on some, but there is always the option of a little botox to smooth those wrinkles!

Now, Illyria would need someone to balance her off and Wesley would be the best choice for that even though he's dead. Joss has brought people back from the dead before and I still think Illyria could somehow get her full power back, even if it's just temporary, do the time-warp and rescue Wesley before he's killed. Throw in Willow and Andrew for a nicely balanced cast and we could have a nice new Buffyverse series on our hands. They could start it off with Illyria and Wesley and then have Wesley seek out the help of the Council and that's where Willow and Andrew would come in. And if they can't have Wesley, bring in Xander. I think he'd play off very nicely against Illyria. Xander's been through a lot and his character could be more darker now because of losing Anya and his eye (and his hometown)!
Well Spike is, and always has been, my favourite character in the slayerverse (well since School Hard anyway) so obviously i'm absolutely fine with him taking the lead in a new series.

Regarding what Rogue Slayer said previously about the possession of a soul causing aging in vampires, i don't really see that as being ridiculous. One of the causes of premature aging in human beings is through worry, stress and concern. A regular vampire has no soul or conscience, therefore no stress or worry from it's actions. Spike and Angel both possess their souls again and all the regret, pain and anguish that accompanies that. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch of the imagination to assume that this could have some effect on their physical forms as well. Vampires do change physically over time, as has been noted in the examples of the Master and Kakistos, so why not because of this reason as well?
Spike's been my favorite character of season 2 of Buffy, but that's not to say I wouldn't have watched the show had he not been in it, it was still a great show and I liked all the other characters. I remember how surpised and happy I was back in season 4, having not discovered spoilers yet, seeing Spike put in the opening credits.

I watched Angel from the very first British airing of "City of...", and watched it through to the end, the addition of Spike was one I'd wanted since finding out that Buffy was going off the air, and one that added a lot to the show.

If Spike were to return they could age him a little, the stress of a soul and being hunted by the Senior Partners (would Angel be dead, or just elsewhere), or they could give him shanshu: Spike made human for helping get them out the alley or something, and now struggling with being newly human, and trying to stay alive, pair him up with Faith or Illyria and the show could be even darker than Angel. Pair him up with Andrew or Xander and you could have a funnier show.

I don't think the WB have any intention of doing this though, I'd watch any Buffyverse show, but this is the one I want to see the most.

Maybe if the post-season 7 Buffy books do well (the first one certainly sounds good), Joss'll tell an author (or do it himself) what he had planned for season 6 and beyond.
Agree totally with your vampire aging theory, Gothic. I've always fanwanked, myself, that Angel and Spike *must* show some form of human aging if they possess human souls. Non-human souled vampires don't suffer as humans do, and it's the things we humans suffer from and endure in life that become written on our faces.

Angel aged very visibly in his years post-ensoulment from S1 BtVS to S5 AtS, and I never for a moment thought there was anything strange about that. After many years of happy-go-lucky murder and mayhem, he suffered terrible emotional torment for what he'd done. Angel's demonic self occupies a human body; while that body once belonging to Liam has arrested physiological functions, for the most part, his flesh has the same ability as a human to show physical injuries. Why not wrinkles, then? Wounds will heal by dint of Angel's supernatural constitution, but wrinkles are not physical wounds -- they only signify wounds of the soul. I think Angel has more than earned his wrinkles.

On the WB: The less said, the better. I don't want to be banned. ;)

On the idea of movies in general: Splendid. Only there's no ME now except Joss, and I would personally only want to see something JW has a good-sized hand in. I'm anticipating Serenity gobbling up most of his frontal-lobe resources for the forseeable future. (Along with his wife and young 'uns. :)

Angel would be my first choice for any BtVS/AtS-verse project, but barring DB's likely disinterest in small screen efforts, I could happily settle for something centered around Faith, Illyria, Spike, Willow or Giles. I'm easy. And I'm also not holding my breath.
But if you ask me, if anything, having a soul makes you gain weight!

Some scientist a hundred years ago tried to prove this. He weighed people as they died to try and find out how much a soul weighed. I think he found it was three ounces.
I'm just saying that people who say they ONLY watched AtS season 5 because of Spike seem to have some obsession with Spike and not enough for the show which devalues any opinions they have towards the show since they don't really care about it, just about spike. Especially since spike was such a minor character on all except 2 episodes that you couldn't have even been watching for any character development which makes me think you were watching just to drool over him or something. But whatever, as long as it helps the ratings although that didn't seem to matter.
I don't think people who say they watched AtS just for Spike are very respectful.

I don't see what respect has to do with it, they're just being honest. Would you prefer they lie and say they watched AtS from the beginning when they didn't? And it's a matter of personal preference and personal motivation, anyway.

I watched AtS since S1 (with a break in between b/c of Tivo conflicts) but didn't get seriously obsessive or analytical about it until Spike joined the cast. He was my emotional "in" to the show. Doesn't mean I didn't appreciate the other actors or characters or storylines, or the larger themes, etc. Just that Spike was the point of accessibility for me wrt the show. In fact, his presence in S5 made me appreciate and sympathize with Angel far more than I had in the past.

Especially since spike was such a minor character on all except 2 episodes that you couldn't have even been watching for any character development

Given that people didn't know that going into the season, I don't see how people couldn't have been watching for character development. They may not have ended up seeing any, but that doesn't mean they weren't watching for it.
charisma: I don't believe anyone has said that they "only" watched AtS S5 because Spike was on it. twiggy stated that she (assuming gender here: correct me if I'm mistaken) *began* watching for that reason, but she surely found plenty of other good reasons to keep watching, and for all we know, she got hooked and went back and watched AtS seasons 1 through 4 even in Spike's absence. As palehorse and debw, to name but two, have suggested above. And I haven't seen any evidence of Spike-obsession here - although obviously such a strange thing has been known to exist ;)

This discussion is veering dangerously into "boo! hooray!" territory: it's not constructive and it's getting a tad ugly. Please refrain from commenting on your perceptions or assumptions regarding other people's tastes and preferences. Speak to the issues, and not to the person, OK?
The problem I have with the whole soul aging vampires theory is that Angel had a soul long before Buffy started and barring a couple of months for it's entire run. Therefore attempting to use it as an excuse for Angel and Spike aging in such a short period of time doesn't work, not to me anyway.
Angel aged very visibly in his years post-ensoulment from S1 BtVS to S5 AtS, and I never for a moment thought there was anything strange about that. After many years of happy-go-lucky murder and mayhem, he suffered terrible emotional torment for what he'd done. Angel's demonic self occupies a human body; while that body once belonging to Liam has arrested physiological functions, for the most part, his flesh has the same ability as a human to show physical injuries. Why not wrinkles, then? Wounds will heal by dint of Angel's supernatural constitution, but wrinkles are not physical wounds -- they only signify wounds of the soul. I think Angel has more than earned his wrinkles.


Yes, but in flashbacks to when Angel was newly souled, he wasn't much 'less' aged than he was in current time. Why? Because it was all filmed at the same point in DB's life. Why did Angel age from BtVS season 1 and AtS season 5? Because DB did! I don't think they were trying to imply that Angel actually aged, it's just kind of a hazard of playing an ageless character.

And I'm sorry, I do find the theory that having a soul makes you age as ridiculous. NO, I'm not calling anyone who thinks that ridiculous, I just don't find it plausible. And yes, vamps have evolved(or devolved, as the case may be) but I'm not sure I put that on par with aging. That's implying that maybe in 1000 years, Spike would look like an old man, which I don't believe. Vampires, historically, are ageless. They traditionally look just as they did when they were turned. Now we can't portray that with actors, so the characters look like they age. I really don't believe it was Joss' intent that the vampires themselves are aging/getting old.

To me it's all the same as breathing. Vamps don't breath, but the actors do. You have to suspend disbelief for a bit. I accept that Angel and Spike are supposed to look as they did the day they were turned. They don't, but I accept they are supposed to. All just my opinion, of course. But I must say I'm surprised that so many people think that vampires age when I assumed it was just an accepted fact that they don't.

And really, from Angel's own mouth: "I'm not getting any older." 'S good enough for me!
I think different people mean different things when they use the word 'aging'. It's key meaning in this sense is basically either:

1: the deterioration of the body towards death. 'Imminent-mortality-no-matter-what-you-do'.
or
2: Difference in looks because of 'wear and tear' by lack of a better term. If you just mean we see some lines in a face of frowning too much, or seeing too much sun (just humans of course), that's not the same concept as your body winding down.

The second I could see for vamps, to some degree. And the Master and Kakistos definitely show change, so that is established. But it's not 'aging' in the first sense. Just 'change with time'. And that change is not even subject ot the second meaning either. They looked the way they did because they started to resemble demons more, having been part demon for so long.

(And really, linking the actors aging to the characters is faulty from the start since the characters are aging humans and the characters immortal vampires. We can't expect actors to not age for our convenience can we? DB and JM would still have changed physically even if their characters had never gotten their souls back so that's just not an argument)

As to the soul theory, I'm mainly wondering what that would be based on. How has it ever been indicated that having a soul affects your physicality as a vamp? And really, humans only 'age with worry' in the second sense of the meaning. Our faces may show it if our lives are stressful but that is the 'wear-of-use' more than age-deterioration that means we're dying. Our health may be slightly affected, but that would fall into the lines of us having live bodies that have to function to all the laws of nature. Not with our souls.

A regular vampire has no soul or conscience, therefore no stress or worry from it's actions.


That's not quite true. Just because they don't feel guilt doesn't mean vampires without souls can't still 'worry' about other things. Themselves for one. They can still go hungry (but as Spike pointed out in S4, don't die. Become 'living skeletons') they can be scared, they can fear for their lives, they can get angry, annoyed, frustrated, etc. Just because they generally don't love, are more evil and have no consience, does not make them excempt from 'stress' about such things and there is no grounds in the stories to assume it affects them physically either.

There is absolutely nothing in the entire Buffyverse that would suggest Angel and Spike are suddenly subject to physical aging because they have souls. (The Master and Kakistos are the only vamps to show change and it certainly had nothing to do with having souls. Quite the opposite) If frowning too much would cause them to develop lines in their faces, it could happen while unsouled too.

There just are no physical effects to them having souls that have ever been shown. (And no, DB gaining weight does not count as I said above) They still can't even touch crucifixes, which is one of the few changes I would be able to logically accept in connection to their souls.

[ edited by EdDantes on 2005-01-27 03:25 ]
Historically, the verdict is still out with regards to whether Vampires age. I have an entire encyclopedia on vampires and there's no consensus on this point in either so-called real or fictional accounts. I suppose that's why I didn't assume it was an accepted fact. The mythos surrounding vampires varies.

Given the existence of the Master and Kakistos, the Jossverse makes room for the idea that vampires do age over time. Neither of those vampires had souls. We don't know what impact a soul might have. To me, speculating on its effects isn't ridiculous at all.
charisma: I don't believe anyone has said that they "only" watched AtS S5 because Spike was on it. twiggy stated that she (assuming gender here: correct me if I'm mistaken) *began* watching for that reason, but she surely found plenty of other good reasons to keep watching, and for all we know, she got hooked and went back and watched AtS seasons 1 through 4 even in Spike's absence. As palehorse and debw, to name but two, have suggested above. And I haven't seen any evidence of Spike-obsession here - although obviously such a strange thing has been known to exist ;)

This discussion is veering dangerously into "boo! hooray!" territory: it's not constructive and it's getting a tad ugly. Please refrain from commenting on your perceptions or assumptions regarding other people's tastes and preferences. Speak to the issues, and not to the person, OK?


I'm female cause you know..YAY Spike. I didn't know I was being controversial. I guess I could have lied and said I watched ATS from the beginning.

Truthfully, I didn't start watching Buffy till later, because I thought it sounded like something I wouldn't be interested in (hee) even though my friends told me I'd love it. Now, I'm still obsessed and both shows off the air. I finally watched it during a Marathon and I went insane over James Marsters and Spike, I admit it. (He is part of the show, right?) I wasn't much of an Angel fan (Buffy/Angel issues) but after I watched ATS with Spike, I have started catching up on the non-Spike eppys and enjoy them. That said, Spike is STILL my favorite character ever on TV.. I love Joss Whedon and I dont' think it's a diss to him or shows lack of respect that BTVS is my favorite ever in the history of TV, regardless of the reason why I love it.

Editted, cause I thought I sounded snarky and didn't mean too. I just was shocked that my statement caused someone to think I was being disrespectful.

[ edited by twiggy on 2005-01-27 04:47 ]
Firefly Flanatic, I have thought of a really good way to bring Wesley back. It would be very, very dark, probably the darkest Wesley has ever been, but it would tell the story of him finding a new reason to live, and in the end, a way to bring back Fred.

This was a whole big story idea I had that I'll probably never write. It would use the idea that Fred's soul in fact had not been destroyed, and was inside Illyria the entire time. There would be more Illyria turning into Fred, especially alone when she watches Wesley sleep, or alone in the mirror, and it would begin to seem like it was really Fred. There would be Illyria (as Fred) and Wesley sex, because back-from-the-dead Wesley didn't care anymore if she kept lying to him. And I think I was going to have Wesley turn to drugs as an escape, something mystical and like heroin, because I wanted him to be very very dark before I shocked the hell out of the reader by bringing back Fred and giving Wesley some hope again.

That's the Wesley/Illyria story I want to see. Or anything that brings back Fresley. I think that was what Joss wanted to do eventually, had the show remained on the air.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-27 17:42 ]
Rogue and Ed, i think you may be looking into the specifics of this "aging because of the soul" thing a little too much. I can't speak for Wiseblood here but for me at least the theory is just that, a theory. I'm not basing it on anything other than speculation so there won't be much in the way of evidence within the show to back it up. Basically it's not so much what i think is happening to Spike and Angel so much as a possible explanation Joss could use for the fact Spike and Angel do appear to be aging.

Personally i'm fine with it never being acknowledged withing the reality of the show. Obviously we can't ask David or James to stop aging in order to keep in line with their roles so if the only other alternative is to ignore the fact that these immortal vamps seem to be getting older then thats fine by me. My only point was that there could be a reasonable argument made for Joss using the soul factor if the aging issue absolutely had to be covered in the show. If it was the choice between using that "excuse" or not having any further live action Angel/Spike appearances i definately choose the former.
Some scientist a hundred years ago tried to prove this. He weighed people as they died to try and find out how much a soul weighed. I think he found it was three ounces.

zz9, I'm cracking up so hard from reading that. I'm gullible and naive sometimes, so I have to ask, are you serious???
Electricspacegirl, i'm not sure if every detail is correct but i'm sure i've read something very similar to that so i'm pretty certain he is being serious.

Either that or we have both heard the same joke before! ;)
ESG - I love that idea for how Wesley would come back and that eventually Fred would come back and save him. It always broke my heart that Fred's soul was destroyed, that was the hardest death to ever deal with on Angel. Now I can imagine your scenario and save them both!
It actually rings a bell now that I think about it. I think i've heard it too somewhere. So basically, immediately after death you lose 3 ounces of weight? So that's why Buffy was so skinny by the end of the series...Ok, I know, bad joke. I couldn't resist.
It's really easy to write Wesley back to life. Neither Fred nor Illyria were trained paramedics. Illyria may not have even checked for his pulse. He probably stopped moving from shock, she interpreted that to mean he was dead, so she stood up and went to meet the others in the alley.

Immediately after she leaves, any number of other characters could step in to save his bacon. The easiest deus ex machina would be Cordelia. Establish that though she's physically dead, her soul has become some pandimensional being, and she brings him back. Another explanation could be Andrew. Show some preliminary exposition saying he reported Angel & Spike's departure to Buffy, something about what he says causes her to ask Andrew to follow them back to the states and keep an eye on things, so right after Illyria leaves the room, Andrew steps in and saves Wes' hide by getting him to medical attention. Or it can be even easier than that. Wes knows how magic works. He's also a bright strategist. He could have cast a defensive spell on himself before he entered the final altercation with that old guy. Maybe he used his prowess with gadgets to fake his own death. Switched out the blades when the old demon guy wasn't looking, a couple blood bags in strategic positions. Okay that one's a little far fetched but workable. Even easier than that, he probably has a cellphone in his pocket. After Illyria leaves and he's sufficiently convinced she thinks he's dead, he pulls out the cellphone and dials 911. There's probably a dozen other ways to write oneself out of that cliffhanger, that just aren't coming to me at the time. Wes doesn't have to be dead.

The others don't have to be dead either. They (and we) were making the assumption that all those dark figures in the rain were running towards our foursome to kill them, but I don't recall any specific reason why they'd all be after Angel, Gunn, Illyria and Spike. I mean, sure they just killed all the bosses of the Thorn Circle, but I'm thinking some of those dark figures in the rain would wanna shake Angel's hand. No, it's just as easy to assume the horde that was coming towards that valley were running AWAY from something, like maybe that dragon. Angel and them would be standing there ready to defend themselves and the horde might just whiz on by them, trying to get away. Then Angel takes down the dragon, and is there any lack of faith in anyone's minds that Angel could take down the dragon? Then they regroup and head to a Denny's. I don't think any of them are dead.

As for this argument that Spike and Angel are aging? Let me let you in on a little secret: actors playing vampires tend to age because, you know point of interest, they're NOT vampires. Wonder of wonders, they're humans playing vampires. Brent Spiner had the same problem when he was playing Data the android on Star Trek. As the seasons progressed, they caked more and more makeup on him to hide the wrinkles as best as they could. They even cooked up the two part episode "Time's Arrow" which explained that Data's head was now several hundred years older than the rest of him, which helped to explain why he didn't quite look like he did in season one. But come on! Are we so stunted in our imagination that we can't dismiss the fact that sometimes people age and they gain or lose weight? It's not like we'd be asking the Olsen Twins to play toddlers in This Old House The Movie.

Maybe it's best the networks shut down the series when they did, because if we diehard fans can't accept Boreanaz and Marsters playing ageless vampires just because their acting talent is limited by their own mortality, imagine how laughable nonfans would find the idea. Both series ended while the respective talents were at the height of their game. Maybe Buffy and Angel had built in obsolescence. Not because the talents involved are mortal, but because the audience is short-sighted. Imagine if both series had survived twenty or more years, when the signs of aging became impossible to ignore.

I hate to admit it, but Gellar was right to pull the F-stop when she did. We fans don't deserve a TV movie, if we're unable to look past things like this. I'm very disappointed in my fellow Buffyholics, to be dissed that Marsters is in his forties, and Boreanaz is in his late thirties. Big deal. We're all getting older.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2005-01-27 06:09 ]
Some scientist a hundred years ago tried to prove this. He weighed people as they died to try and find out how much a soul weighed. I think he found it was three ounces.

That's where the saying "21 grams" comes from. It has since been disproven. There's an interesting article on that by Dr. Karl S. Kruszelnick (famous for correcting myths in a fun way!) here.
That was a great post ZachsMind! Loved all your scenarios on how Wesley could be saved. Hey Buffy was killed by the Master but Xander gave her some CPR and she was good as new! Also, if there is a spin-off or movie in a few years or so, I really won't care how old DB or JM look because it's the characters I love and they were done beautifully by those actors. I remember all the comments about "how old" Data was looking and thought that was dumb back then too.

Now, I'm trying to picture Spike as a 60 year old and I'm glad the shows didn't last that long!! It's fun to speculate on future possible storylines but I loved how both shows went out on top and still giving us great stories! So many shows are so bad near their end and are just a shadow of their former greatness. I'm glad BtVS and AtS didn't have that same ending. Of course, AtS still had at least a couple of good years left but I'm happy it was still so good when it ended.

If there is never a possibility for a spin-off or movie I would love it if Joss wrote a novel. We could then have the luxury of picturing the characters the way we remember them. When Firefly ended, I was hoping he'd write a novel so we could at least know what happened to them and have some questions answered. I am thrilled that we are getting Serenity instead!

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-01-27 06:19 ]
Blwessels, I agree that Joss should write a novel. And a novel where he gets to write the stories he didn't get a chance to tell (Tara and Willow reuniting, Wesley and Fred reuniting, and any other stories we don't know about) is an excellent idea. How well do you think Buffy/Angel novels written by Joss Whedon would sell? Would he even be interested? I'm guessing not but hey, Joss, if you're reading this, what do YOU think?
Gothic, sorry if I came on too strong, but it sounded like you and some others were arguing that this is how the show's vamps were intended to be seen, aging and all. And I truly don't think that's the case. No offense intended whatsoever.

And personally I didn't need an explanation why Angel in Buffy S1 looks different from Angel AtS S5. It's Angel. It's fine. And if the actors aged, that's fine too. Have them work out a bit, slap on the make up and I'll accept Spike and Angel, crows feet and all. I hope Joss won't start reworking his own mythology for something like that.

And sure, Wesley could be resurrected in numerous ways. Not sure Joss will though, since that death scene probably meant a lot to him and I doubt he would want to diminish it by a resurrection. Let me add Wesley is my favorite character in AtS and I would accept a lot of explanations if it meant having him back somehow, hehe.

If there is never a possibility for a spin-off or movie I would love it if Joss wrote a novel.


I've been wondering if he'd ever try that. It doesn't seem to be his preferred medium for writing, but it would be interesting to see.

For now I'm hoping that after X-Men, he'll join Jane Espenson in their earlier intent to do a Buffy S8 with Dark Horse Comics. (I'd prefer a TV show but I doubt that will happen.)
Re: the ensouled vampire aging issue, I should have been clearer that there is a distinction, as EdD correctly pointed out, between the concept of 'aging' as it applies to the human reality of "growing older to die", and as the consequence of "everyday living experiences leaving evidence behind on things that don't (die)." (Note that vampires are considered "things" in the text of BtVS. Things can't 'age'; they can't change in themselves, their state remains constant -- but time can act upon them and alter them from the outside. This is without the additional factor of the "thing" acquiring a "soul" or conscience....)

I think instead of explaining my reasoning behind why their humanity would have made a difference, I would have been better off if I'd expressed the idea using a concrete physical example, like... Take a piece of newly tanned, perfectly conditioned leather. Now, use it for some task every day that involves folding it over and over. You won't necessarily do harm to the material -- folding doesn't change its nature, after all, and may even make it better by increasing its pliability -- but after time, some marks are inevitably left on its surface.

What I'm getting at is, it's not so much that having a soul makes Angel and Spike age, it's just that being open to the full range of human experience and emotion (pliability) increases the odds that they'll manifest some kind of visible marks. Even if their human souls don't contribute to any actual physical aging, these are some hard-living boys, physically as well as emotionally. I do think the marks of that greater degree of depth (as opposed to others of their kind), self-scrutiny, etc. could conceivably still manifest as, and be mistaken for, conventional aging by anyone judging them on the basis of known physical characteristics alone.

Also clarifying: Like Gothic, I'm aware there's nothing substantiated in the shows' texts to support this idea. That's why it's a fanwank, and why it might not make 'sense' to anyone else. It's my own mind's idea for how the issue could be resolved (to my satisfaction, anyway) if it ever came up. If it never does, it would be fine with me. I'm more than happy to buy into the myth of eternal vampiric youth if it gets me back inside the gates of TV or big screen paradise. As long as DB and JM want to play these roles, it remains feasible in the 'verse, and Joss & posse can make it work, I'm into it!

'Sides, I've always had a thing for older men. ;)
Another spin-off idea that I'd like to see is Tales of the Slayers. I'm not sure it would work on a network, but you never know. It could be either live action or animated. It could be a series or a TV movie, or a series of movies. There's so much you could do with that. It would be interesting if the graphic novel was made into a live-action movie. I'd love to see that. Probably not gonna happen but I say, why not? I still want to know more about those Slayers of old.

And speaking of Slayers, what about Dana the Vampire Slayer? I still wonder what happpened to her post-Damage.
> But if you ask me, if anything, having a soul makes you gain weight

It does, in fact.
As explained in Disharmony:

ANGEL: Here we go. That's it. Drink up.
HARMONY: Eww! Yech! It tastes funky.
ANGEL: It's pig's blood.
HARMONY: Ugh, well, that's gonna go straight to my hips.

As for the whole 'Watching AtS b/c of Spike'-thing:
I watched all 144 Buffy-episodes in two months, tops. Then I cried and cried and cried - I didn't want a life without Spike. A friend told me that Spike had made his comeback on Angel, season 5 - but I remembered having seen one Angel-episode and didn't understand it at all. I started watching AtS beginning with season 1. Despite my initial crabbiness ('all that work for one season of Spike!') I got completely hooked, and by the time I reached season 5 I just welcomed Spike. But it was just as fine without him.

If watching AtS, solely because of Spike/JM, would mean you're disrespectful, why would you read whedonesque at all?
Being here kind of implies that you respect the Whedonverse as a whole.
The whole "watching Angel just for Spike is disrespectful" argument doesn't really make sense, if it got you watching the show, does it really matter.

Also, should be remembered that chances are that if Spike hadn't crossed over there wouldn't have been a season 5 at all.
I'd like a Dana the Vampire Slayer show. :-)

And another way Joss could tell some of the stories we noted here (ie, Willow and Tara, Fred and Wesley) would be through another series of comics, since he is doing so well there at present. While they did cease the Buffy comics, IDG has agreed to do more Angel and so maybe they'd do Buffy as well if Joss wrote it (and Cassidy inked).

Dana
Great discussion!

So much passion just demonstrates that none of the shows have aged one tiny bit since they were first on air.
ZachsMind, as Wiseblood and EdDantes posted previously, and as i've already said myself, i'm more than happy to ignore the fact that Spike and Angel (Darla, Dru and all the other regular vamps for that matter) appear to be aging despite the fact that they shouldn't be. Of course they are just actor playing a role, that goes without saying.

Again, this was just fan speculation as to a "possible" way that Joss could explain away the aging issue if it became absolutely neccessary to do so within the story. I can't see any of us losing any sleep however if we are just asked to ignore the fact that David and James have a few more wrinkles than they did back in the early days of the show.

That is basically the reason why i disagree with the idea that any Angel and/or Spike television or movie projects would need to happen in the next few years or the actors would look too old. Big deal! I'd rather have an older looking Spike than never have anymore Spike again to be perfectly honest.

But again, this isn't an issue of us being unable to accept the reality of aging actors, merely a little harmless theorising, much in the way you did above with your ideas on how Wesley and the others could have survived the conclusion of Not Fade Away (which i very much agree with by the way).

EdDantes, no offence taken at all. Just wanted to clear up any misconceptions you and Rogue Slayer might have had about what Wiseblood and i were suggesting.
I don't think expressing an interest (or disinterest) in which character you'd like to see a movie about can be interpreted as 'infighting'. If certain fans would rather see an Illyria or an Angel movie than a Spike movie, I say, "Speak up!" And vice versa. Make your voice heard to the extent that you can. Personally, only one person's name needs to be associated with the project in order for me to be hooked: Joss Whedon. And without Joss, I wouldn't take the time to tune in, no matter how much I liked the character.
Actually, as much as i respect Joss and would obviously prefer he was as involved as was possible, all that i would need to know was that he gave the project his blessing.

I would never wish to hear that his slayerverse had somehow been stolen away from him by Fox who had then gone on to churn out project after project that were based on the 'verse but bore little or no resemblence to the first two series. That would definately not be acceptable to me. However if i knew that Joss had approved the project to go ahead but was too busy to actually be involved himself, beyond giving the final nods where appropriate, that would be enough for me.

The way i see it, if a Spike project went ahead with JM in the lead role but with a whole new cast and crew behind him, we would owe it to James to at least see how it turned out. Same for if it was just Amy in the Illyria role or Alyson in a Willow series. Saying that you wouldn't watch if Joss wasn't sufficiently involved seems unfair to those that would be.
Unfair? I'm not understanding. I won't watch what doesn't interest me and Joss' verse without Joss wouldn't interest me. Gothic, you've described a situation 'with Joss' blessing' and over which Joss would 'have the final say'. To me, that counts as Joss involvement. If an entirely new cast and crew were involved, I would want Joss to be more hands on, though.
I would prefer an Illyria movie over a Spike movie, or an Angel movie. This is because she was introduced so late in the season and there was so much story to tell about her. She is compelling and fascinating to me. I love the Wesley/Fred/Illyria love triangle. There's so much untapped potential.

Spike had a long story arc. It was beautiful and riveting, and I regard Marsters as one of the best Whedonverse actors. I love his acting, especially in season 7. Angel had his story told also. The twists regarding Wesley and Fred at the end of ATS had me hungry and for more. I don't think I'm alone in this.

As much as I'd love a Willow spin-off (she's my favorite BTVS character after all), she's had a great amount of focus. Even though it's devastating as a Willow fan that the story Joss wanted to tell didn't get to be told, I can live with it, I think.

Xander and Giles are probably the BTVS characters that I would most want to see get a TV movie or spin-off. Especially Giles. Or hey, how about a Xander and Giles show. Those characters also have a lot more story to tell. They were funny as hell, especially when they did recon together and Xander talked too much which annoyed Giles. Hee.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-27 19:27 ]
Sorry looking, i read your previous post a little differently than how you meant it, obviously. I assumed that you wanted Joss there on a day to day basis or that wouldn't be good enough for you.

What i would suggest though, as much as this might sound like heresy at Whedonesque (and just in case Joss reads this, sorry mate, no offense intended here), i wouldn't mind seeing what somebody else would do with a slayerverse type series with as little involvement from Joss as possible. Like i said before, i would need to know that he had approved this going ahead and that he would have the power to stop anything from going on that he was absolutely against, but maybe a Spike show with mostly new blood behind the scenes wouldn't be a bad idea.
As for this argument that Spike and Angel are aging? Let me let you in on a little secret: actors playing vampires tend to age because, you know point of interest, they're NOT vampires. Wonder of wonders, they're humans playing vampires.

The argument isn't that because the actors age, therefore vampires must age. I don't believe that from BtVS season 1 to AtS season 5 that we were to infer that the vampires themselves aged at all, but instead were to suspend our disbelief and go along with the idea that they are ageless throughout the duration of both shows.

We're discussing a possible explanation, should it be necessary, for Angel and/or Spike to appear older should the actors appear in another show based on the verse in the future. I think the verse allows for the possibility that over long periods of time vampires change in their appearance as evidenced by ancient vampires such as the Master.

Would having a soul alter how this change over time takes place? I have no idea, but I see nothing wrong with fanwanking it as a theory.
I don't think expressing an interest (or disinterest) in which character you'd like to see a movie about can be interpreted as 'infighting'.

No, but dissing other fans who happen to like a character that you're not interested in can be interpreted that way. That's how I interpreted Spike fans being called disrespectful. It doesn't bother me at all if someone is not interested in the same character that I am.
Gothic, what specifically is the focus of what you'd like to see ? Is it the Buffyverse actors/actresses or is it the Buffyverse itself as a backdrop for new stories ?

When you say 'Slayerverse type series' it almost sounds like what they are trying to do with VM and PP, at least how these shows are being marketed.

For myself I believe that Joss have the magic recipe for a TV series ( Drama, fantasy/Scifi, characters you care about both heroes and villains, heavily sprinkled with funny quotable dialogue) it's a pity he currently doesnt want to use it for TV saving it for the big screen.

When other people try they will mix the ingredients differently perhaps adding more soap/drama ( PP ) or drop the fantasy/Scifi part (VM) and the end result is likely to be less than what we have been accustomed to and we will keep insisting that we want the 'real thing', accept no substitutes.
killingj,my comment had nothing to do with any comments made about Spike fans being disrespectful. It was aimed at the worry that fandom not uniting for a particular story being told constitutes infighting, when it's simply an expression of personal preference.

[ edited by looking on 2005-01-27 19:11 ]

[ edited by looking on 2005-01-27 19:11 ]
jpr, what i was meaning was a new series set within the current slayerverse but with a whole new group of people behind the scenes, new writers, producers, directors and so on, as well as a largely new cast.

For example, if this was to be a Spike show, you could reasonably have him leave behind everything he has done before and decide to start afresh somewhere. This would lead to a whole new start for him with a new group of friends and allies. Couple that with having fresh minds working behind the cameras and you have the potential for something totally different from either Buffy or Angel and yet still leave the possibility of old faces turning up in the future.

I don't see any reason why this couldn't happen. It would mean that the only person we would have to have onboard from the old shows at the beginning would be James and it would also mean that Joss could have as little or as much involvement in the show as he wished.

Don't get me wrong here, my first wish would be to have Joss back on a slayerverse show full time, however i do believe that there are others out there that could do justice to the characters and the story as well.
I think the spin-off ideas I like the most are a Faith/Illyria show and the Slayer-school thing (that Joss actually considered for a while, according to Jane Espenson) with Willow and Kennedy training the new-born Slayers. But Faith and Illyria kicking ass together is the best, hard to top that one.
Gothic, I see what you mean and while I agree that a new show set in the Buffyverse with a new set of writers and a largely new set of characters would be worthwhile, I doubt it would be able to live up to our expectations.
Would I watch it ? oh yes
Would I buy the DVD ? oh yes
Would I complain that it was not as good as Buffy S3 ? Probably

As mentioned in a previous thread there is always the risk that a new show is made on the cheap to try to cash in on the readymade fanbase, the fact that Joss would not want to have his name attached to something like that is likely to be a showstopper for the foreseeable future.
It was aimed at the worry that fandom not uniting for a particular story being told constitutes infighting, when it's simply an expression of personal preference.

I didn't say that not uniting for a particular story constitutes infighting and I don't recall anyone else making that point either. You quoted the term "infighting" which was used in response to the Spike fans comment, which is why I attributed your comments to it.
killingj OK, without sounding cranky, I'm not really understanding this. Neither why you commented on my original post, which was unrelated to anything you said, nor did I say you had said not uniting for a particular story constitutes infighting.
Catching up on this thread. Man, I didn't realize I missed out on so much of the fantastic plot ideas. Clem the series, D'Hoffryn, Big Gulp demon (I had to bring him up again because I love him so much), the Xander/Illyria/Spike show. They could all work if Joss and a supportive network gets behind them.

It just goes to show how much potential there is in new stories and character development. Not to mention characters Joss has not yet introduced us to.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-27 22:23 ]
The soul weight thing, I did a bit of checking and Snopes sum it up nicely. though I was wrong about the three ounces.

And characters I'd like to see? Ilyria and Wes, Faith, Giles and Xander. And the AprilBot. Seriously.
Characters I don't want to see? The potential (now slayer) with the "English" accent. If she ever appears again I'll be the one protesting outside the multiplex at the Serenity premier with the placard saying "Down with this sort of thing!"
zz9, this could be a case of my memory going in my old age (well, late twenties anyway) but the only two potentials i recall with English accents were Molly and Annabelle, who were both killed before they could be activated in Chosen.

Am i forgetting somebody?
killingj OK, without sounding cranky, I'm not really understanding this. Neither why you commented on my original post, which was unrelated to anything you said, nor did I say you had said not uniting for a particular story constitutes infighting.

First of all, you had "infighting" in quotes, which I interpreted as being a response to a post where that term was used, which was related to the Spike fans comment. I was part of a on-going conversation on that topic, so I responded. You later clarified that you were talking about something else.

Secondly, I did post about the desire for unity in the fandom - at least to the extent that we don't bash each other or our ideas for what we'd like to see in the Jossverse. I know you didn't say that I had said not uniting for a particular story constitutes infighting - I wasn't suggesting that you did. When you mentioned unity, I was merely clarifying that neither I, nor anyone else participating in the conversation at that point claimed that not uniting for a particular story constituted infighting. Since nobody was talking about infighting in terms of uniting around a particular story I found your post puzzling.

Finally, this is an open conversation where members are free to jump into the discussion at any time and comment on anything they want.
You know, I loved the Big Gulp demon. I'd like to know more about him, too. He was an example of the beauty of Joss' work. We see him for such a short period of time, but he made such an impression.

And killingj, there is obviously miscommunication and misunderstanding going on, and personally, I see no point in discussing it further.
Ok It was me who used the term "infighting" So I thought I'd best explain.

Whilst we all have our favourite character it should be perfectly possible for us to have a reasonable discussion without resorting to disrespecting other characters or to descending to the level of "my vampire's better than your vampire"

It should be possible for us to campaign for a continuation of the Whedonverse and express our hope that our favourite character is in it without disrespecting the talents of other actors or the feelings of other fans.

And I wasn't accusing anyone on this board of infighting but Lord knows I've seen way too much of it elsewhere.

If we want a movie we need the type of unity that we had fighting for the series . We need to be able to say "Look we know David and Sarah aren't interested at the moment but, fantastic as they are , this show was so much more than just David and Sarah and there are so many interesting possibilities.Just about any of the amazing cast could carry a movie. I hope that at least one of them gets that opportunity . To have a favourite isn't infighting. To run down another character or actor or indeed their fans in support of that favourite can lead to infighting. Also it's just not nice,

[ edited by debw on 2005-01-27 23:43 ]

[ edited by debw on 2005-01-27 23:44 ]
Gothic, they both died?








Good.
How shocking. A non-answer from a WB person. Face it folks, it's dead.
And now for something completely different (sort of):

Even though it's devastating as a Willow fan that the story Joss wanted to tell didn't get to be told...

What d'you mean, electricspacegirl? Are you referring to the rumored S7 Willow/Xander storyline, or something else? (I never kept up with spoilers for BtVS or any post-"Chosen" story outlines, obviously....)

I'm really enjoying all the possible Whedonverse story ideas. I forgot to include Wes in my list of preferred characters for potential TV films, but I'm very pleased to see he's been well-represented by others outside of my momentary lapse of reason. :)
Joss wanted Tara to have been brought back to life near the end of season 7, so that at least one of the characters would finish the series with their significant other, in the end Kennedy was introduced for this reason.

There was a rumored Willow/Xander storyline? I'd heard of the Xander/Buffy storyline, before they decided to go with Spike/Buffy for season 7.
Wiseblood, I was talking about Joss wanting to bring Tara back in season 7 and reunite her with Willow. Hearing about how it was to be written, it breaks my heart that we didn't get that. That will be one of my 2 big Buffyverse regrets (the other regret being that the Wesley/Fred/Illyria arc was cut short just when it was getting good).

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-01-28 06:19 ]
I hear ya, ESG. In my mind I can picture the whole Tara coming back scene but it would've been so nice to actually have it happen. And Illyria was such a fascinating character and watching Wesley with that character as he's dealing with his grief over Fred was one of the best storylines that we never got to see fulfilled.
Right there with ya, Blwessels. Especially right now while watching season 5 again. Soon I will be watching the Gift and Willow will say "I will always find you" and I'll cry again for the umpteenth time. That line always gets me, especially knowing what will happen to Tara in season 6.
I don't know why you're saying that your not watching the show from the beginning as some great reason to why i'm wrong. I didn't start watching Buffy till june 2003 which as you know means the show was over so I don't see how that has anything to do with it. A lot of people said they only watched for Spike, just read through these posts and you'll see a lot. First they'll say they only watched for Spike then they'll defend themselves because they know I'm right.
Charisma, let it go - your comments here aren't doing the discussion any favours.
I thought the Spike/Illyria relationship was getting interesting and would love to see where it was going. It certainly looked like they were being set-up to discover the world together. I don't mean romantically. Although Spike was a character that had been in the "verse" for a long time, he was new to dealing with the world with a soul. Illyria is new to dealing with this world at all. I found Spike (of all people) being Illyria's guide to exploring her new world ironic and interesting, just as I assume I was supposed to. That said, I would watch any continuation of the Slayerverse that Joss was involved in and probably enjoy it. Unfortunately I don't think it is going to happen any time soon.

BTW, does anyone know whether the WB would have to be the one to do future slayerverse stuff? Once Joss's contract with Fox is up, is there any reason he couldn't work on whatever he wants with whomever he wants? Does Fox or the WB or UPN own the rights to stuff that would keep Joss stuck with them?

Big digression here: I sometimes think, reading everyone's comments, that I am the only one who saw character development in Spike in As5 and did not see his change as being out of character per se. When he first got a soul BTVS s7 all he did was follow Buffy's lead. Buffy says do this or be like that and he does it because he trusts her and it gives him focus and a reason to function. He seems to deal with ensoulment faster than Angel because he has someone "good" helping him find his way. In As5 that is taken away and he is trying to figure out things and deal with things himself while having Angel, someone he resents and someone who knows just how bad he has been over the years, as part of his life. It is a different stiuation and makes sense that he seemed very different than he did in Buffy. People seem different when they are in a different setting and dynamic. (...and different make-up and lighting. Sorry, couldn't help it.) It was not perfect but it seemed like it had a lot of potential.
Somebody correct me if i'm wrong here but from my understanding the only commitment Joss has now is to Fox itself. If they were to put a new slayerverse series into production tomorrow there is absolutely no reason why it would have to be given to either the WB or to UPN.

Personally i would like to see them come to an arrangement with the Sci Fi Channel. Given the success they are having at the moment with the two Stargate series, Battlestar Galactica and also the Farscape mini series i would imagine that they could now afford to finance a show set in the slayerverse. More importantly, that channel would not expect the same kind of viewing figures that any of the big six networks obviously do, which would mean a much greater chance of the show having a good long run and not getting cancelled before episode six aired.
ella - Clem: The Series? Bring it on!

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home