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February 28 2005

TV Gal references Buffy when she talks about the ending of another show. She eventually got over Buffy ending... How about you?

Also there's another BtVS reference further down the article, about our beloved vengeance demon Hally.

I've gotten over Buffy, but mainly because both the actors and the writers were ready to move on when it ended. Although, I'd still love to see some of the characters from the show again in a TV movie or new series. I'm not over the loss of Angel because I felt like the show was really moving in a good direction and there were so many stories left to tell. If it had not been cancelled, I'm convinced we would be enjoying an amazing season six right now.
Yes because I didn't like the last 2 seasons. But with Angel...I'll never get over that.
Loved the last 2 seasons, and seeing as how my wife and I continue to watch the DVDs from all the seasons, I guess the answer is no, no we haven't gotten over the show's departure.

Noticed TV Gal didn't go ga ga for the 7th Heaven musical episode.
That's the beauty of DVD's, you never have to get over your favourite shows ending because you have them in constant re-runs, hehe.

Having said that, i wouldn't mind seeing at least one more project featuring Buffy and the Scoobies at some point in the future either.
Chris inVirginia, ditto. I revisit the DVDs all the time. It will always remain my personal favorite. However, I think the series that was totally robbed is Firefly. It was so D*mn good, especially for first season. All the characters just have an amazing chemistry...
Buffy had said its piece. If you look at the overall seven season arc, the story began with a young girl who'd been singled out as the one saviour of the world against unsurmountable odds, and had been blessed/cursed with the power necessary to meet that challenge. However, despite having friends and a mentor and a loving mother and later a sister.. She felt alone, because she alone held that burden. Her loved ones helped her through and shared the burden as best she can. However, it wasn't until the very end that, with Willow's help and the help of many others, Buffy was no longer alone. Others were there now to help her fight the good fight in the same way she had been 'Chosen.' So, just like the man with one arm in The Fugitive finally being found and conquered in The Fugitive, the tv series Buffy went full circle. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. Yes, all the other people around Buffy still have stories to tell, and even Buffy has perhaps new stories to tell. She's still cookie dough and blah blah blah. The point is, the Buffy the Vampire Slayer show itself told its story, and it was very cool.

You don't try to go back and touch up Starry Night after Vincent Van Gogh tells you he's done.

I like how Angel went out. I like the last image of Angel going out swinging, with his eye on the dragon. That just effin' rocked. Had the series gone another five years, I don't see how they could have topped just what that said, y'know? Yeah it coulda gone on further, but five years is nothing to sniffle about. It had a good run.

What happened to Firefly just pisses me off. The were just starting to lap the racetrack a few times when the checkered flag was prematurely waved. THAT story isn't finished, and I don't want one movie to wrap everything up. Whedon's probably going to answer some questions with this new movie, but we'll be waiting two or three years between installments, and had FOX not been a bunch of hwoon dahns we'd KNOW BY NOW whether or not Book was actually a shepherd, what Inara's little 'suicide kit' really was, and how River would escape from her mental cocoon and become a butterfly. In fact, by now Zoe and Wash would probably be parents, and wouldn't that have made for a crazy season? Maybe they woulda tried to turn the place in front of Wash's pilot station into a nursery. Mal woulda had a cow! So several seasons of story potential on tv will now be distilled into one or (maybe) more movies. I still feel ripped off. I still haven't gotten over that. They'll renew Seventh Heaven and One Tree Hill but they give Firefly the brush off. Wuh duh ma huh ta duh fung-kwong duh wai-shung doh!

...oh. And I could care less if NYPD Blue is over or ever existed. Mighta seen two episodes in its whole run. Barely give it a thought.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2005-03-01 02:19 ]
ZachsMind, my feelings exactly!! I couldn't have said it better. I feel Buffy was a wonderful run. Angel, although premature had it's chance and I would've loved at least a couple more seasons but Firefly never had it's chance and it was brilliant from the get go. I'm looking forward to the movie and possible movies to follow but it will never be the same as having five to seven seasons of great television to obsess over.

Edited to comment on ZachMind's NYPD Blue comment. I've never seen an episode and I never care to either. Just never appealed to me at all.

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-03-01 02:25 ]
Buffy's 7 season run was an exceptional run, and it ended both at it's natural conclusion and as the series was starting to simmer out.

I have a lot of fond memories of Buffy, and some pretty negative ones as well, but overall I'm very pleased with where it all went. The only year I really have issue with is the first one, and even that was split evenly between the good and the bad.

ZachsMind got it right with how the run begun and ended, it was the end of an arc, it came full circle. The show was done.

Angel on the other hand probably had another 2 years in it, but even then the conclusion that the show came to was so good, and so thematicly perfect that I can't feel bad about the end of the run. I have over a hundred wonderful episodes at my disposal at any time, that's enough for me.

Firefly, that just amkes me sad, I don't think enough people gave it a chance when it was on, and it was so perfect from the pilot. I loved EVERY episode, some more than others, but everyone nonetheless.
I only like the last episode of Firefly. Hopefully the movie will be better. Angel was my favorite show so I won't get over that, but Not Fade Away was a great way to end if it had to.
"Never" is my answer. Selfish it may be but just never. That's all.
Firefly obviously never got the run it deserved. Angel wrapped up with a lot of loose ends, and while the finale was as good as it was going to get, I felt that it had some more in it.

I'll politely disagree with everyone here when I say: Buffy wasn't done. The last half of the season felt like it was thrown together in an attempt to wrap a few things up, but I felt like there were so many more stories to tell. Maybe because I was in the minority on liking season six, season seven felt so ... sketched out. As for the show being out of ideas (notice I'm avoiding "out of gas"), you only have to hit the fanfic sites to see that there are ideas left. Yes, a lot of fanfic is dreck, but I've seen some great "season eight" material out there.

So, I guess I'm saying, "more of all of them." Which, at this point, I know will never, ever happen. The show would have to be shot IN Sunnydale for enough mystical forces to converge and draw the respective actors and writers back into the same spot. Still, I can always hope. I make do with fanfic, graphic novels, assorted Buffy books, and whatnot, but I doubt I'll ever get over it.
Never one to easily let go when my brain's latched on to an idea, I neglected to put into my previous commentary a very important element in the validity of any given television show today. The common vernacular for this concept is jumping the shark. Let me preface this by saying the Jumping The Shark thing is a subjective measure. It's different for everybody. There's no exact science to it, but there are some commonalities.

Did anyone see the Happy Hour reunion they had recently? I don't know why I was watching it; I have no life. Anyway, at one point Gary Marshall (executive producer of Happy Days) took a defensive posture against the concept that the phrase "jump the shark" stems from the Happy Days episode in which Fonz did indeed jump a shark. I've actually seen that episode. In and of itself it wasn't a bad episode. The shark thing was really just a smoke screen. The real story dealt with the possibility of Richie Cunningham giving up dreams of college to go be a Hollywood talent. He gives up the temptation, but when you actually watch that episode, you realize this is where they SHOULD have ended the series. Richie becomes a man basically. His father doesn't scold him or try to tell him what to do. He lets Richie make an important decision that will forever change his life. There's also the dynamic between Richie and Fonzie, where we see Fonzie actually look at Richie and feel jealousy, because though Fonzie has been cool, he sees that Richie has a future, whether in Hollywood or in college. In Fonzie's eyes, Richie really becomes cool and Richie and Fonzie have a bit of a falling out, and the whole shark thing is what brings the two of them together as friends again. Full circle. Campy, but a nice story.

The series had come full circle with that. The arc between the principal characters was over. Happy Days SHOULD have stopped there. It didn't. Gary Marshal was proud to say that after the infamous shark episode, they went on to make another hundred episodes. He says this as if it proves something. As if it means the whole "jump the shark" thing is dispelled. JTS doesn't mean when a series did end. It means when it should.

Buffy and Angel ended when they needed to end. We could wish for more. We could say they left us wanting more, and that's probably a good thing, but arguably neither series really jumped the shark, and both shows had endings that while sad, were also uplifting at the same time. Some could argue Buffy jumped the shark in season four or season six. Those times when it appears they jumped the shark? What really happened was the writers kinda lost sight of the overall plot arcs for a bit, but they got back on track every time and when you step back and look at all seven seasons in total, it's quite an impressive masterpiece.

Years from now, diehard fans of NYPD Blue may say the same thing about their favorite series. That it never jumped the shark. I don't know. For me personally, NYPD Blue jumped the shark when Dennis Franz walked around in front of the camera in the nude. That's when any interest I may have had in the continuance of NYPD Blue dissipated. Like I said, JTS is a purely subjective thing, different for everybody, but it's also an important element to consider when talking about how and when any series ends. =)

Okay I'll shut up.

(edited to add the link above, in case anyone who doesn't already understand this wants to learn more about the concept.)

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2005-03-01 03:37 ]
You don't try to go back and touch up Starry Night after Vincent Van Gogh tells you he's done.

Well said, ZachsMind. I am also in the camp that Buffy and Angel should be revisited as finished masterpieces. I mourn Firefly not only for how good it was, but for the potential it had. In its short run, this is just my opinion, Firefly eclipsed Angel and more. There was something poetic about the it.
Buffy it took me a while to get over, but I did. In the end I feel it really was time to end it at season 7. It went out in a good strong way like it deserved.
Angel on the other hand, well lets just say I still cry about that one.
I, like Chris inVirgina, loved season 6 and 7. In fact season 6 is my FAVORITE of all the seasons. What can I say, I'm a dark depressing woman. I completely agree with ZachsMind about Buffy....complete full circle. The weight of the world is now off her shoulders (kind of), and really that is what the show was about. I completely disagree about Angel. The story was not done, period! Joss has even said that he purposely left things open because there could be more to tell. That does not satisfy me in the least. If Angel wasn't done, Firefly sure as hell wasn't done. We didn't even scratch the surface on that story.
Neither Buffy or Angel are over until our DVDs stop playing. The hubs are cracked on a couple of the Angel disks because we've played them so much. I really do prefer the U.K. packaging where each disk is in a sleeve instead of those blasted push button, hub holder thingies...
I'm very pleased with the way Buffy ended. The story arc made a full circle. A young girl had to put her life on hold for a responsibility she did not want. In time, she learned to accept her role and excelled in the face of impossible odds. Until the dark times she realized it was becoming her life and it was destroying her. So she fought back by changing the rules which freed her to live her life again. How's that for wrapping up seven years?

Though Joss and team did a remarkable job in wrapping up 'Angel' in the short time they had, I'll always feel a bit 'short-changed'. This really hit home when Jeffrey Bell discussed what Joss had planned for season 6. The whole world of evil falling into chaos without the controlling factor of Wolf, Ram, and Heart. The stange relationship growing between Wess, Fred and Illyria.

And I'm still heartbroken over 'Firefly'. You could sensed that Joss took the lessons he learned from BtVS and AtS and applied them to this series. I think this series would have surpassed them both if they had given Joss a chance. But, at least, we do have a movie or three coming so that's something.
Madhatter has nailed the way I feel also, others have said it too but since the Madhatter post is directly above mine all I can say is ditto.

I have very strong feelings of hate for the WB, because of their decision I feel gypped out of the 6th season of Angel. As if that weren't bad enough, in cancelling Angel they cancelled the last Jossverse TV show we had to watch.
A little part of me never got over Buffy ending. Probably the same part that still cries like a baby listening to "Full of Grace", the same part that laughs even louder to the jokes while watching the DVDs. It wasn't just a show, it was something that brought lots of joys to other aspects of my life.

A little part of me is still mourning for the premature demise of Angel. Probably the same side that still linger on the fact on how the show was getting better, how it finally found it pace again after an bumpy season 3, and a good season 4 with a few ups and downs. But there were still stories to be told, but at least they got to deliver a final message.

I never got over Firefly ending. There were still so many stories to be told, and so many fights to be fought, too many places to go, and discoveries to be made. Fox never really supported the show. Maybe not normal enough for its standards.
I starve for the movie, but I'm afraid it might not be enough. A 120 minutes big screen experience it'll be great, but it's not enough. How many plus hours we might've seen if the show did go on. How many new faces we might've met. I never stop to wonder...
Ill never get over the ending of buffy. The show is just too good.
Numfar PTB, very well spoken.
I am not over Buffy, I will never get over Buffy and I also don't want to get over Buffy. Period.
I haven't gotten over all 3 shows ending Buffy, Angel or Firefly. Thank God for DVD's! Can any one tell me a good site for virtual season 8 of Buffy and Angel. Thank you.
I also feel like Buffy should have 8 seasons. Not only Angel was one season too short.
An elegy to "Blue":

When NYPD Blue hit the airwaves in 1993, all the fuss was about David Caruso. He was the central figure of Steven Bochco and David Milch's multi-layered storylines, the man walking on the tightrope between protecting the citizens of New York and taking the spoils of the war on criminals for yourself. In many ways, S1 of Blue was a slightly less harsh, more sober, more realistic version of what Shawn Ryan (Whedonesque tie-in!) would do in The Shield a decade later.

When Caruso left, the show shifted entirely over to Dennis Franz and the bigoted, alcoholic, yet strangely honorable Andy Sipowicz. It seemed to be an impossible task: could the show's creators turn "cautionary tale" Andy--the negative example--into the main character? The hero? It turned out to be easier than anyone would have believed. The audience could root for Andy to overcome his demons, build a new life for himself from the wreckage; because if Sipowicz could dig himself out of a hole that big, there had to be hope for everybody else.

Of course, once Andy beat the booze, grew a little more tolerant, found love and family again, a lot of the zip went out of the series. Also, the complex, internecine warfare between New York's legal agencies in S1 was downplayed afterwards. The common procedural plots of the typical NYPD Blue episode never fell below "interesting," but never rose above it, either. And even with Jimmy Smits on board from S2-5, it felt as if Blue was running on a single engine--a powerful engine, to be sure, but the nagging feeling that the show was one-dimensional never left me. Seasons 6-11 seemed to have gone by in a blur, an endless parade of non-descript junior detectives, slinky ADAs, and skeevy skells, none of them particularly distinctive compared to Franz' bear-like, overwhelming presence.

And yet, I kept watching. Sometimes, I don't know why. Except for Andy, sad sack Greg Medavoy and Gay John (the civilian assistant), nobody is left from the old days, and I don't really care about the newbies. But even three episodes from the end, Franz and the writers pull something new out of the hat. Andy is promoted to Sergeant, and he's suddenly the voice of experience on the street, instructing new beat cops how to distinguish a break-in artist from a delivery man who's stayed in a little too long. The material is fresh, and Franz, as always, delivers the lines with undeniable honesty. After 12 years, it's almost miraculous that Franz and "Blue" can still find that honesty.

I know most of you never cared, or lost interest ages ago. Don't blame you. But I'm there for the last call at the 15th precinct.

I hope they don't kill Andy.

[ edited by cjl on 2005-03-01 23:01 ]
While I feel that BtVS had just the right amount of episodes to fulfill its promise, I mourn it still (not because I think the show should have continued, but because it was my favorite and I've never been so emotionally invested in a television program in my entire life). I mourn AtS because, although I thought the ending it did have was absolutely pitch-perfect, I feel like there were still exciting ways for the characters to continue to evolve. I've always *liked* the show, but I fell in love with it watching the fifth season, because it challenged its very own sense of pathos, grew even more insanely original in its execution, and gave the stellar cast a chance to further explore their characters in new and surprising ways (no, I cannot rave enough about how excellent this show was, particularly in the last season).

I know I should be beaten with a club and have my bones set out to bleach in the sun, but I have yet to see an episode of Firefly. That said, I am very excited at the prospect of finally seeing it. I've been deliberately prolonging said viewingfest for just the right time, when I need a brand new infusion of Joss creativity, and now I'm also wavering back and forth between watching the show now or waiting to see the movie first. Either way, I don't have to have even seen it to know that its potential went way unfulfilled. From all I've heard about it, and just because it was a JW creation, I just KNOW that it should not have been cancelled.
ariana75 - I strongly recommend watching Firefly before Serenity hits theaters. I realize the film will be, out of obvious necessity, accessible to those who have never seen one episode of Firefly, but there's no doubt, to me at least, that the experience will be infinitely more rewarding to those who already know, and love, the characters.

Plus, it's fun to torture yourself. I was anxiously awaiting Serenity before having seen all of Firefly, just wanting a Joss fix, and having absolute confidence in his creations. But now, my anticipation has been raised to an entirely new, far more desperate, level.
I was sad when it finished, but I now realise it was Buffy's time to end, the show, as it was, had reached his end, there were, however, characters in there that could have carried their own shows: Willow (minus Kennedy, I really disliked her), Faith, Spike (still true after Angel season 5).

Angel ended at least a season too soon, there was another years worth of story about that group, though the ending was good, it was too early, plot-lines were being laid down for one hell of a final season, and then suddenly the final episode finishes with, they probably all died. The basic idea of the last two episodes, taking down the major players in the apocalypse, the gang finishing the series fighting, would have worked well wherever the series finished, I just would have preferred it at the end of a season which hadn't left quite so many loose threads.

Firefly was cancelled far too early, it's the best first season out of all the Joss shows, it could have become something amazing, and as good as the movie will be, having to wait at least 2 years between episodes is going to be long and painful.
Maybe I'm the only one, but I find Buffy ending with more lose threads than Angel did.
I think thematically Buffy ended well, but I personally feel that the final leg of the journey was entirely unsatisfying. After so many years of these characters, for it to end feeling all fragmented and such just didn't sit well at all. I think that the concept and message of the ending was good and solid, but the presentation of it fell completely flat. So yeah, no surprise to anyone who knows me, but I'd say I'm still not over Buffy.

I've only recently sat down to watch all of Angel, and while I'm still missing about half of AS5, I think that it ended before its prime as well. And Firefly of course, no contest.

Basically, I'd say I'm not really ready to let any of them go. But then that's the root of all fandom, is it not?

[ edited by Jet Wolf on 2005-03-02 03:10 ]
Well said, ZachsMind.

I loved Buffy, and i want more, but its done. And im happy with the way Buffy ended. A real full circle.
I still mourn the loss of any Whedonverse on TV. Buffy may have had a wonderful completed arc but that is just testament to Joss' writing. I'm convinced he would have done a better Season 7 (not my favourite) if he hadn't been so intent on tying up all the loose ends. And what did we end up with? More slayer mythology that is never explored. (Where did those priesteses fit in?)
Angel definately could have gone on longer and Firefly, well, no question there. As others have said, the characters from Buffy were part of my life. Their stories, mine. How do you just say so long, farewell to that?
The spreading of the Slayer powers to all those others, unsupported, untrained, unaware is a disaster. It fatally weakens the entire slayer-to-slayer transmission so no new slayers can appear anymore. As they are killed off rapidly (remember, unsupported, untrained, unaware ), Buffy is forced to take up the burden again (maybe as The Last Slayer - hence the tie-in to Fray where no slayers have been called). THAT should have been the consequence to S7 and hence the storyline for S8. You are always alone and always shoulder your burden alone no matter how much others may appear to be sharing it with you.

Buffy had heaps more to tell.

Koos - I am right there with all three of your comments!
I never thought about it like that catalyst2, and I think it would probably have turned out like that if it continued, because that's Buffy, that's what its always been; the one and only chosen, alone. However, as a finale I thought the concept was great, an ideal ending (well I would've prefered something more romantic- they all win the lottery and sail off into the sunset happily ever after, as if!).

I can't imagine ever getting over Buffy. I just finally saw Angel season 5 and I loved it! I wasn't the biggest fan before now, but I just loved eveything about it. Firefly, enjoyable, strong 1st season, but not exactly my cuppa tea!

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